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View Full Version : Revised Spell List and Spells [3.5, PEACH]



Vadskye
2012-08-15, 10:57 AM
Spells take up nearly a third of the player's handbook, but they rarely get direct attention. Everyone likes creating shiny new classes and sweeping changes, but digging into the mechanics of individual spells is more rare. This is probably because spells are a little boring to house rule: there are no grand, elegant designs that can answer simple questions like "Why is Aid/Acid Arrow/Jump/etc. such a useless spell?"

The problem is, many spells are bad - some untakeably so. This, combined with the fact that some spells are too good for their level, means that most casters deal with effective spell lists that are actually very small.

I want to address that. Every useless spell, every nonsensical or poorly worded spell description, deserves to be remedied - either by changing its effect, changing its level, or changing who can access it.

But spells need more than just that. Casters are gods among men in the world of D&D; their utility, their ability to overshadow other classes (particularly the poor rogues), must be corrected. This is part of that effort, and it should be able to stand on its own. Alone, these changes do not fully fix that issue, but it is a step in the right direction. Moreover, I am not simply beating all casters over the head with a giant nerf bat and calling it a day. Casters need to have fun too! They just need to function at a closer level to the rest of the party.

All of these changes should combine to do one thing: Make life easier for players, particularly new ones. Removing the huge power divide between spells of the same level allows new players to choose spells that they like without worrying as much about their power. Reducing the number of spells that a new player has to understand before choosing their spells makes it much easier to level up. Using spell slots instead of memorized spells makes casting easier, with less bookkeeping.

Towards those ends, these are the new spell rules:

Every class has the spells known of a sorcerer of their level. Every class (including sorcerers) has the spells per day of a sorcerer of their level, but with 1 less spell per day at each spell level.

Every spell list was shrunk. Some, like the sorcerer/wizard list, look like someone went at them with a meat cleaver. Others, like the druid list, just got some minor trimming around the hedges.

Every spell list had spell levels shuffled around and some spell descriptions changed. It's hard to summarize, but in general, weak spells got made more powerful or lowered in level, and strong spells had the opposite.

Stacking rules have changed. Every spell gives an enhancement bonus, and bonuses from spells do not stack with each other.

In nearly all cases, bonuses to attack rolls have been replaced with temporary hit points, and penalties to attack rolls have been replaced with penalties to damage or armor class. This is intended to reduce the amount of calculation that needs to happen on-the-fly.

As a side note, the text uses Hit Values instead of Hit Dice. They are essentially the same; the name change is just intended to reflect that hit points are not rolled in my system.

Some classes need particular attention to explain.

Sorcerers and wizards:
There is a "specialist list" of spells for specialist wizards. Unless you are a specialist wizard, you can only choose spells from the general list of arcane spells. Specialist wizards automatically add all specialist spells from their school of specialization to their spell list. At odd levels (starting at 3rd level), specialist wizards gain an additional spell known. That spell must be taken from their school of specialization. Specialist wizards do not have an extra spell per day relative to generalist wizards.

At odd levels (starting at 3rd level), sorcerers and generalist wizards may add a single spell from the list of specialist-only spells to their spell list, allowing them to take it as a spell known and use items based on that spell. Generalist wizards must have a scroll (or spellbook) of the appropriate spell to gain it in this way; sorcerers do not.

For all arcane casters, the spell they choose at their odd level must be of a level no higher than half their class level. The "every odd level" features for arcane casters are based on class level, so taking a magical prestige class now actually comes at a cost.

To reduce the problem of the 5-minute adventuring day and make the slog for the first three levels more palatable, sorcerers and wizards have an "Magic ray" at-will spell-like ability identical to an eldritch blast.

All non-core spells are specialist-only.

Other casters:
Clerics automatically add all spells from their two domains to their spell list. At each spell level, they must choose two spells known (in any combination) from their domains before they gain access to the general cleric list.

Bards and druids have no special spell acquisition rules. Their lists are already specialized.

All non-core spells are added to the general lists for druids and bards. I'm still deciding what to do with non-core cleric spells.

Having said all that, you can see the revised spell information here (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9786645/Revised%20Spells.pdf).

Credit goes to Lanaya for ideas on choosing spells for the cleric domains. Credit also goes to Rogue Shadows, RobbyPants, and Pathfinder for some of the spell fixes that I used.

Baron Corm
2012-08-21, 01:16 PM
Might I suggest, in the PDF, taking out all of the descriptions of the spells that you didn't change? Or perhaps putting a listing of just the changes in your post on GitP? Maybe both! It's next to impossible for me to make heads or tails of it without something like that.

Two spells I've just looked at: gate seems like it could use a level drop, as it's not much different from plane shift as you wrote it. Disjunction appears to have been made stronger, not sure why.


Spells take up nearly a third of the player's handbook, but they rarely get direct attention. Everyone likes creating shiny new classes and sweeping changes, but digging into the mechanics of individual spells is more rare. This is probably because spells are a little boring to house rule: there are no grand, elegant designs that can answer simple questions like "Why is Aid/Acid Arrow/Jump/etc. such a useless spell?"

I'm thinking it's because it's a LOT of work. The amount of effort you've put in here is impressive.


Stacking rules have changed. Every spell gives an enhancement bonus, and bonuses from spells do not stack with each other.

In nearly all cases, bonuses to attack rolls have been replaced with temporary hit points, and penalties to attack rolls have been replaced with penalties to damage or armor class. This is intended to reduce the amount of calculation that needs to happen on-the-fly.

These are probably good things. I'm not too sure about the second one, but I'd have to see the different spells side-by-side to really compare.


At odd levels (starting at 3rd level), sorcerers and generalist wizards may add a single spell from the list of specialist-only spells to their spell list, allowing them to take it as a spell known and use items based on that spell.

I really liked the sound of your specialist system, but I would take this part out completely. It negates it. They're not going to need more than 9 powerful spells to be as versatile as they desire. The restriction of having a spell level <= half your class level is not much of one.

This could be moot anyway considering you don't seem to have changed the rules for specialists. Most high-op wizards are specialists. It just seems like a specialist here can do anything they could've done before. If your goal is balancing wizards and limiting their versatility, this is something that should be looked at. I like going the dread necromancer/beguiler/warmage route, and limiting casters to only a few spell schools. Even a focused specialist, giving up three spell schools, still has five to pick from, and he's giving up his three most useless. If I missed somewhere that you did something like that then ignore this.

Vadskye
2012-08-21, 03:01 PM
Might I suggest, in the PDF, taking out all of the descriptions of the spells that you didn't change? Or perhaps putting a listing of just the changes in your post on GitP? Maybe both! It's next to impossible for me to make heads or tails of it without something like that.
Yes, you're right - having everything in there definitely makes it harder to work with. I'll make a more readable version that once I have a chance.


Two spells I've just looked at: gate seems like it could use a level drop, as it's not much different from plane shift as you wrote it. Disjunction appears to have been made stronger, not sure why.
Gate is the only spell that can mass-transit creatures across planes for major interplanar battles. That's something I want to restrict access to if I want major interplanar battles to stay rare. I see it as being roughly equivalent to Teleportation Circle, which is 9th level for roughly the same reasons. Possibly the duration could be bumped to minute/level to make it more viable for this purpose, however.
Disjunction no longer permanently disenchants magic items, which is an improvement. As for why it doesn't require a caster level check - it's a specialist spell, so I give it more freedom. And that keeps it as being the ultimate anti-magic weapon, as opposed to some sort of slightly improved Greater Dispel.


I'm thinking it's because it's a LOT of work. The amount of effort you've put in here is impressive.
Thanks!


These are probably good things. I'm not too sure about the second one, but I'd have to see the different spells side-by-side to really compare.
Yeah, I look forward to seeing their implications in a game situation. I suspect it will make them better, but not too much - which I'm okay with, since Bless never really got cast anyway.


I really liked the sound of your specialist system, but I would take this part out completely. It negates it. They're not going to need more than 9 powerful spells to be as versatile as they desire. The restriction of having a spell level <= half your class level is not much of one.
The freedom that I give to generalist wizards stems from a fundamental conflict about what to do with non-core spells. I don't want to go through every book and separate them into "general" and "specialist". That means they have to be lumped together into one or the other. If I make them all generally available, then that undoes everything I just went through to get a coherent list of specialist spells. That means that all non-core spells have to be specialist only. In order to get access to noncore material, then, generalist wizards and sorcerers have to have some access to the specialist list. Thus, they get this ability. If I were playing a core-only game, I'd bump that down to be once per four levels or take it out entirely.

Also, don't underestimate the downside of only geting those benefits if they stay in the wizard or sorcerer class. Casting prestige classes now have a serious opportunity cost.


This could be moot anyway considering you don't seem to have changed the rules for specialists. Most high-op wizards are specialists. It just seems like a specialist here can do anything they could've done before. If your goal is balancing wizards and limiting their versatility, this is something that should be looked at. I like going the dread necromancer/beguiler/warmage route, and limiting casters to only a few spell schools. Even a focused specialist, giving up three spell schools, still has five to pick from, and he's giving up his three most useless. If I missed somewhere that you did something like that then ignore this.
I should have been more clear. Specialist wizards and generalist wizards have the same spells per day. Also, in case this wasn't clear, specialist wizards add only the specialist spells from their school to their spell list, and unlike generalist wizards, they have no access to any specialist-only spells from other schools. Plus, all the schools are more evenly balanced. That means that, for example, a Transmutation specialist no longer has an obscene number of spells in his school at low levels and longer gains access to some of the greatest gifts of other schools (no Greater Invisibility, for example). I think that helps a lot; does it still seem imbalanced?

(I edited the original post to make explicit some of the statements I made here)