(PF) Tankless Job

[North_Ranger]

So I've got a Pathfinder campaign coming up - and for reasons outside the game, the person who was supposed to play the team's frontline fighter decided not to be partaking in the coming venture.

So this leaves me wondering, whether the current group - all level one starters at the moment - is viable and able to survive without someone to soak up damage in the style of the most beloved meatshield, Roy Greenhilt. Should we start looking for a new player? Should I suggest one of the players to multiclass? Or are there some tips or advices the more experienced GMs have to offer for a green-behind-the-ears GM such as yours truly?

Currently the group composition is as follows:
- LN half-elf druid (no animal companion), thinking of multi-classing into ranger.
- NG tiefling sorcerer (diabolic bloodline)
- ?? half-elf rogue
- NG human cleric of Sarenrae

So, any tips or suggestions?

[Togath]

You'll be fine, a tank doesn't generally work well in dnd or pf, as you would need the dm to focus fire on him, which isn't the most logical thing for most enemies the party encounters to do.
The druid is also a fairly sturdy class as well anyway.

[TheJudicator]

Seconded to what was said above. The Druid will be sturdy enough to make it, and between that and the cleric you'll have the front lines well-covered.

That being said, I've been in a party where no-one had any martial weapons and only one used armor heavier than light...it all amounts to smart playing.

[Invader]

A druid without an animal companion and no wildshape isn't anywhere near sturdy enough to be any kind of tank character. No str, no dex, crappy armor, and constantly casting in melee?

[Answerer]

Thirding (or whatever number we're up to) the "there's no such thing as tanking in 3.x" posts.

[Ballista]

I also support what was said above, though tanking does exist in the form of the Knight class from 3.5 which is basically the only class with an aggro mechanic similar to what MMORPG tanks use. Alternatively take the feat Stand Still with a reach weapon to prevent melee fighters from getting past the pseudo-tank and hitting squishy parts of the party. None of this is in fact necessary, just throwing it out there.

[Novawurmson]

While true tanking in D&D/PF isn't possible, the Paladin makes a pretty good damage soak - able to put out enough damage to make himself a threat while self-healing and eating damage like a pro. It even gets some spells that force targets to attack them - provided they fail their saves, a pretty big "if."

Again, while it's true that there's no such thing as an MMO tank in 3.5/PF, it is helpful to have a primary melee combatant. Summons from the Druid, Cleric, and Sorcerer can help offset the lack of a main melee, but if the Druid wanted to just go straight THF Ranger, that could work.

[Invader]

I also support what was said above, though tanking does exist in the form of the Knight class from 3.5 which is basically the only class with an aggro mechanic similar to what MMORPG tanks use. Alternatively take the feat Stand Still with a reach weapon to prevent melee fighters from getting past the pseudo-tank and hitting squishy parts of the party. None of this is in fact necessary, just throwing it out there.

It was also recently pointed out to me that the Crusader from ToB does an excellent job of a "tank" and has some pretty good "taunts" to keep people focused on him.

[MukkTB]

3.x games allow a great deal of freedom in choosing what to attack. Its not quite 'everyone can shoot everyone' but its close. There's a reason melee builds that can lock down movement are highly praised. Most of the time its hard to prevent someone from attacking what they want to even in melee.

So. What can you do?

Fairly Bad Ideas
One Bruiser
You can let one guy carry the combat all by themselves. He'll need superior tank and gank. Everyone else is there to provide out of combat utility. Skills/utility magic/whatever. These people cannot do significant combat damage or they will become the target of attacks they can't handle. Theoretically you could have 2 or more bruisers but the core idea here is that the utility doesn't need to tank because it doesn't represent a major threat in combat, and the bruiser can dedicate all his resources to fighting.

IE The rogue sneaks. The wizard casts invisibility. The barbarian screams and charges.
The rogue justifies his existence dealing with traps and skill based challenges plus a backstab or two. (Some scouting maybe.) The wizard justifies his existence buffing the barbarian before combat and teleporting the group where they need to go. The barbarian fights the combats pretty much solo.

Pros - Only one guy needs to understand optimization. The squishy wizard isn't likely to get skewered. Everyone still has an area they can 'contribute.'
Cons - A combat challenge meant to push 3 hearty adventurers to the edge of their endurance may kill the barbarian. The other players will get frustrated in a combat heavy game.

Meatshield to the Front
The fighter stands in front of the group hiding behind his shield. The wizard and the archer fling projectiles over his head. This is the classic 'tank' setup. The archer and wizard focus on damage.


Pros - Life is good when the monster decides or is forced by the terrain to attack the fighter.
Cons - Ambushes. Enemy archers targeting the wizard with ranged attacks. Area of effect traps. Enemy wizards targeting the archer with ranged attacks. Attacks from above. The part when the fighter fails to save vs a save or suck. That time the fighter didn't show up to a gaming session. The goblins that attack you from every direction as you travel the open road. A wizard with a fireball. You get the idea.

Not Terrible Ideas
Everyone Tanks
The formula to consider when deciding which target to kill first in an 'everyone can shoot everyone' scenario is this: (Target's Offensive Power) / (Target's Defensive Power) You want to kill the glass cannon first. You want to kill the sword and board tank last.

Therefore it makes good sense for everyone in the party to maintain a similar ratio of tank to gank. Anyone who can do significantly more damage than the other party members better also have significantly more tank. The same goes for in combat utility.

Pros - An enemy that chooses his target will not be able to cripple the party by taking out the glass cannon first.
Cons - Tanking is difficult. You must tend to AC, HP and saves. Feats are pretty worthless for tank most of the time so you have to spend a lot of your loot money on tanky items.

Kite for Your Life
The entire party kites the enemy using a combination of their own mobility and magic to deny mobility to the enemy. I'm looking at you black tentacles. When the enemy is presented with a target, its the one the party wants them to attack. The one with the uber ac or the amazing saving throws.

Pros - Enemy melee will have a hard time connecting.
Cons - Ranged attacks are hard to kite. Monsters that are faster than you will come and eat you.

Summon Monster Meatshield
Summon things and have them get in the baddies way. Hope the baddies attack them and waste their actions.

Pros - Attacking a summoned creature is a total waste of time.
Cons - A smart enemy will ignore the monsters and suck up the damage they do.


At minimum I recommend Everybody Tanks. You really should also kite, use battlefield control, focus your own fire, and summon monsters.

[ericgrau]

Well D&D tanks don't draw fire so much as stand in front and take a bit more hits than everyone else, but not all the hits. You have the cleric for to stand in front so it's not so bad. But at level 1 you'll be in trouble purely from lack of damage output. All 4 characters are lacking there, especially in pathfinder. By about level 6 spells will take care of the offense, but they'll be hurting levels 1-5.

Some things to remember:

Foes that haven't acted yet are flat-footed. The rogue can sneak attack them. A backup ranged weapon might be handy in case he can't move into melee fast enough. Getting the rogue a flanking buddy somehow may help too. PF nerfed grease, so it only works part of the time for sneak attack.
Alchemical items can provide a little damage to everyone regardless of their main role. They're touch attacks so even with a poor ranged attack modifier it's at least a 50:50 shot.
Flaming sphere provides good early game damage for the sorcerer. Also combines well with web, which is one of the best level 2 spells early or late game. Druids also get flaming sphere. Spiritual weapon likewise provides ok damage over time if the cleric has a high wisdom. The selective channeling feat provides good healing for the long difficult fights you might have to endure.


So the basic goal is to get enough subpar damage (not tanking) to survive until level 6. With proper spell selection their damage actually won't be too shabby starting level 3-4 thanks to damage over time building up. Then at levels 1-3 that leaves weapons and alchemical items. Casters should still get the standard control spells like sleep and web, but they should also have damage options too since there are less damage heavy allies to clean up the foes they've merely delayed.

In the end players should do whatever they want though. You could always scale back encounters instead. You might still leave alchemical weapons and easy to use backup ranged weapons like crossbows in the treasure though.

[Slipperychicken]

Druid may want to burn spell slots for SNA each encounter. If the enemies are dumb enough, they'll smack the animals and ignore the guy doling them out.

Cleric can also summon minions to distract people from the main event, place them so enemies have to take AoOs to move past. Hopefully something big or scary-looking so the enemies focus it.

[Andvare]

No animal companion on the druid, and multiclassing to ranger?
That is certainly one gimped out druid :smalltongue:.

Anyhoo, there is a, limited, aggro mechanic in PF. It's the feat Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize). Now, the true aggro mechanic of the feat only works for one to two rounds, but it is forcing the enemy to target you. It doesn't work all the time, nor on everyone, but most enemies aren't immune to mind-affecting effects.

[North_Ranger]

Hmmm... Okay, sound advice overall. Guess I was a little too much drawn into the 4.0/MMORPG mindset there. I just always figured a decent meatshield was a thing you should have.

I'll talk with the druid, see if I can't convince him to get an animal companion and some summon spells. Same with our sorcerer... that'll be interesting, a tiefling summoning celestial creatures, heh.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's level 1. Summons last for 1 round after taking 1 round to cast.

Summons are not worth using in combat at this level.

Have the cleric tank. He has healing and can be in breastplate, or whatever the hell you can afford, and heavy shield. Druid will be a les useful tank, though he can wear hide armor and heavy wooden shield. There's a horn lamellar in UC that's good for druids, if that book is available.

And yeah, spend a day to get the animal companion.

[Invader]

It's level 1. Summons last for 1 round after taking 1 round to cast.

Summons are not worth using in combat at this level.

Have the cleric tank. He has healing and can be in breastplate, or whatever the hell you can afford, and heavy shield. Druid will be a les useful tank, though he can wear hide armor and heavy wooden shield. There's a horn lamellar in UC that's good for druids, if that book is available.

And yeah, spend a day to get the animal companion.

Summons are absolutely worth casting at first level. A number of summoned creatures can do decent damage to most of the monsters PC's face at that level plus they draw fire away from the PC's. They're some of the MOST useful spells at low levels.

[grarrrg]

No animal companion on the druid, and multiclassing to ranger?
That is certainly one gimped out druid

It's actually not too bad, if you take the Shapeshifting Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shapeshifting-hunter) feat.

(and don't go too heavy on the Ranger levels...)

[Andvare]

It's actually not too bad, if you take the Shapeshifting Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shapeshifting-hunter) feat.

(and don't go too heavy on the Ranger levels...)

By thinking of multiclassing, I assume that the player is using the druid as a combat druid, and I also assume that not having an animal companion means that he has taken a domain instead.
That is, from an optimizer POW, an odd mix. Domains are good, for a caster, not really all that stellar for a fighter.
At least, that is my assumption (I know you shouldn't make assumptions, because it makes an ass out of u and mption (http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Assume)).

But I suppose a druid is still strong enough to handle such a blatant misuse of their powers.
:smallwink: