She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

[QuidEst]

Again: don't really care about healing at that level. The nastiest stuff you'll meet doesn't have anything to do with hit points. If you've gone to the trouble to build a designer demiplane and kept it stocked with a magical healing pool, and carry it around with you everywhere, I think you kind of deserve to be able to heal with it!

I agree on the hitpoints, certainly! 2d8 is pocket change. (Literally, since that's less than 30gp worth of wand casting gets you.) Being able to take off non-permanent negative levels and ability damage is still really nice, but not unbalanced. Pocket demi-plane with free healing is just what I'd do as a 15th level Geoccultist. :smallbiggrin:

Few questions and suggestions…
• When a feature refreshes, how does the cost occur? Providing the 100 ebbs to replenish the Healing Springs is trivial if I can provide that over the course of the day, but extremely difficult if I have to pay it as a lump sum.

• Does the Nymph Pool's water refresh automatically?

A nymph pool costs only 100 lb, but the water in it needs to be replaced daily at a cost of 50 lb per day to maintain its purity.

• Suggestion- Detonating sunmetal leaves an area unable to grow things. Interaction with geoccult poles isn't specified, but I think it would be cool if it disrupted their connection with the earth, preventing them from being placed in the area.

[Kellus]

• When a feature refreshes, how does the cost occur? Providing the 100 ebbs to replenish the Healing Springs is trivial if I can provide that over the course of the day, but extremely difficult if I have to pay it as a lump sum.

Upkeep happens as lump sums, but you don't have to pay for every feature together in the same installment. So yeah, you need 100 ebbs to replenish your Healing Springs. On the other hand, yay, no more negative levels ever!


Does the Nymph Pool's water refresh automatically?

Just like any feature, it drains metal (or ebbs) automagically whenever it needs to be replenished.


Suggestion- Detonating sunmetal leaves an area unable to grow things. Interaction with geoccult poles isn't specified, but I think it would be cool if it disrupted their connection with the earth, preventing them from being placed in the area.

Very cool idea! I love the cross-discipline interaction, I'll add something to that effect to sunmetal's writeup!


Re-reading lightning pools, I'm a little confused as to how they work. So lets say I take the water from the pool (after it's been charged), and split it up into its max amount of possible divisions:100. Do each of these hold their part of the charge (i.e., each 1/100th of the pool can store 1 ebb), or does the "communal pool" it refers to keep existing after seperation, meaning you can have 50 seperate set-ups gathering electricity ebbs, powering 50 entirely sperate mechanisms. If the latter, than that would mean it's actually to your advantage to split it up into as many different parts as you can. Also, relating all these effects that occur regardless of distance (latter interpretation of lightning pool, whispereeds), do they still occur on different planes (like say having some iceIns on the Fire, powering my really wierd attempt to farm brassbrush and ghostgrass on the Ethereal via lightning pool shenanigans).

Each part of the pool shares a communal pool, so you can basically use them like bits of orichalcum that are all draining and adding to the same reservoir of puissance instead of just each having their own. So you could take some of the lightning water and hook it up to a superphlogiston cycle to obtain massive amounts of energy, which can then be accessed through a different sample of lightning water that came from the same pool.

[QuidEst]

Upkeep happens as lump sums, but you don't have to pay for every feature together in the same installment. So yeah, you need 100 ebbs to replenish your Healing Springs. On the other hand, yay, no more negative levels ever!
I might have missed this, but specifying how the ebbs/metal have to be supplied for both features and poles would be helpful, since it makes a big difference. Otherwise, I would assume the "ebb at a time" cost, which is easy.


Very cool idea! I love the cross-discipline interaction, I'll add something to that effect to sunmetal's writeup!
Glad you like it! It seemed like it would either be that, or have one of the scarier parts of sunmetal be trivialized by plopping down a pole so cute squirrels and bunnies can move in. :smalltongue:



Each part of the pool shares a communal pool, so you can basically use them like bits of orichalcum that are all draining and adding to the same reservoir of puissance instead of just each having their own. So you could take some of the lightning water and hook it up to a superphlogiston cycle to obtain massive amounts of energy, which can then be accessed through a different sample of lightning water that came from the same pool.
Best way to pay for all those fancy features lying around!

[Qwertystop]

Seems to me that, at least in the case of Nymph's Pools and Healing Springs (which have the cost for the purpose of keeping the water fresh) should be able to take the cost over time, seeing as the water doesn't all go bad all at once (presumably).

[QuidEst]

Seems to me that, at least in the case of Nymph's Pools and Healing Springs (which have the cost for the purpose of keeping the water fresh) should be able to take the cost over time, seeing as the water doesn't all go bad all at once (presumably).
Well, it's also sort of a balance thing. 100 ebbs over a day is more or less the same as "free". Those same 100 ebbs all at once is an actual price. For the Nymph's Pool, five ebbs in one go (or actually providing 50 lbs. of water, caster level 3 Create Water) isn't hard either way.

[Qwertystop]

Well, it's also sort of a balance thing. 100 ebbs over a day is more or less the same as "free". Those same 100 ebbs all at once is an actual price. For the Nymph's Pool, five ebbs in one go (or actually providing 50 lbs. of water, caster level 3 Create Water) isn't hard either way.

Yeah. I know it's a balance thing, just saying it doesn't work out with the fluff. And in something that's at least partially based on scientificness, that's a Bad Thing.

[Morcleon]

Well, it's also sort of a balance thing. 100 ebbs over a day is more or less the same as "free". Those same 100 ebbs all at once is an actual price. For the Nymph's Pool, five ebbs in one go (or actually providing 50 lbs. of water, caster level 3 Create Water) isn't hard either way.

With a few blocks of phlogiston and a few iceIns, 100 ebbs comes really easily. Just sayin'.... :smalltongue:

[Arcanist]

I might have missed you answering this, but does Push stay coherent when traveling through a YGGD Semi-space?

For example. If I use a Ballistic Engine to launch a bullet through a connected Semi-space will it continue at it's same speed through the portal?

I'm trying to develop a Mass Relay or a method for traveling to other planets without the hassle of using a Spelljamming Vessel (Or perhaps using a Spelljamming Vessel with an Othogonal engine to place a bound connected semi-space on the planet).

Will the 400-Principles for ELDK allow an engine to move at (or perhaps surpass) the speed of light? If so, would it be associated with the merging of the two Disciplines Yggdratecture and Eldrikinetics? Or perhaps Alchemetry to influence the mass of the object being "launched"?

[Necroticplague]

Seems to me that, at least in the case of Nymph's Pools and Healing Springs (which have the cost for the purpose of keeping the water fresh) should be able to take the cost over time, seeing as the water doesn't all go bad all at once (presumably).

It doesn't go bad all at once, but you need to replace it all at once. Or, you know, its an abstraction that makes things easier, and helps to establish the sense that gramarie still has some unknown factors to it (like how the vast majority of things that manipulate matter only modify solids, and a whole lot only a specific subset of solids (seriously "solid planetary metal no more than 8 ft volume is a ridiculously specific set of restriction)).

Although, now that I think about it, using brassbrush to its full potential can produce horrifying results, since it seems that BIOY effects could also work, in addition to what's listed. Use some ALCH to turn the copper into iron. Turn iron into ploghistan. Make said phogistan a biollurgical chassis, then use artifical reckoning to give it instinct that make it hilariously easy to train/automatically subservient. Make sure to not give them eve the slightest hint of self-preservation. Use Preternatural Fluids to decrease the melting point of the phlogiston to below that of the temperature it gives off. Since this requires several different specialist principles at work, you'd have to pay someone to help you. But if you can't think of some way to recoup your profits with an infinite amount suicidally loyal creatures made out of molten fire, you clearly aren't trying. Especially if you re-plant them outside the geoculltic buble, so you don't need to babyst them too much (decreased maintenance, either in metals or in time and money setting up an ebb-generation system to maintain them). Like say, selling them as living trebuchet rounds/suicide rushers, seige-breakers, or highly intimidating guard animals. Heck, you could even pull a redcloak:

"Flaming pitch from the catapults? Isn't that a little cliched?"
"What? No, pitch doesn't burn long enough nor cause enough collateral damage."
"Then what the heck are you launching at them?"
"It's complicated, but they're liquid, constantly burning, and suicidally loyal. We have a deal with a guy who gives us a fresh shipment every week."

[QuidEst]

With a few blocks of phlogiston and a few iceIns, 100 ebbs comes really easily. Just sayin'.... :smalltongue:
You're already in Geoccultism, so you can make Firesand.

One tablespoon of firesand when mixed with sufficient water will produce flame even hotter than phlogiston (2000 degrees Centigrade) for five minutes before burning out. It also produces 50 cubic feet of superheated dry steam at 500 degrees Centigrade from this reaction. Firesand costs 250 lb for a single 5ft. patch.

Stick that in a Blue/Red/Yellow filter box. Generate water inside once per day (Heuristics with silverOut casting first-level Create Water), and that generates your power. It runs for five minutes, so it can pay for itself easily. You'll need two or three iceIns to get the power needed, which means two or three patches of Firesand. If you want this anywhere but a desert, you'll need Geoc 323 to mix the two and Geoc 374. Still, now you only need the iceIn from somebody else.

I like the image of a Firesand foundry, where Firesand is burned to fuel more Firesand production…

As mentioned before, crystalIn plus a bunch of Whisperreeds will let you generate the ebbs you need easily with only the principles you pick up. Place a Whisperreed at each of several waterfalls, and it's all the sonic energy you need. I trust it more than Phlogiston or Firesand since it can't burn your biome down if something goes wrong.

[Necroticplague]

You're already in Geoccultism, so you can make Firesand.


Stick that in a Blue/Red/Yellow filter box. Generate water inside once per day (Heuristics with silverOut casting first-level Create Water), and that generates your power. It runs for five minutes, so it can pay for itself easily. You'll need two or three iceIns to get the power needed, which means two or three patches of Firesand. If you want this anywhere but a desert, you'll need Geoc 323 to mix the two and Geoc 374. Still, now you only need the iceIn from somebody else.

I like the image of a Firesand foundry, where Firesand is burned to fuel more Firesand production…

As mentioned before, crystalIn plus a bunch of Whisperreeds will let you generate the ebbs you need easily with only the principles you pick up. Place a Whisperreed at each of several waterfalls, and it's all the sonic energy you need. I trust it more than Phlogiston or Firesand since it can't burn your biome down if something goes wrong.
...
Firesand is native to the desert biome. The two most famous features of deserts are 1:Having very little plant life and 2: having ground that's mostly sand. Sand doesn't burn. So you're not going to burn anything using firesand if you set it up in its native habitat (maybe aside from some random idiot who walks into the system and is then flash-fried). Now, if your mixing it into a swamp, forest, or grassland, yeah, expect things to go up in flames.

[QuidEst]

...
Firesand is native to the desert biome. The two most famous features of deserts are 1:Having very little plant life and 2: having ground that's mostly sand. Sand doesn't burn. So you're not going to burn anything using firesand if you set it up in its native habitat (maybe aside from some random idiot who walks into the system and is then flash-fried). Now, if your mixing it into a swamp, forest, or grassland, yeah, expect things to go up in flames.

Well, the point of it is mainly to fuel the nice things we can have in other biomes. Those can be mixed into your desert biome, but if you want a couple of them, you'll need the firesand in your non-desert biome.

By the way, I salute your mad science! I would not make them into liquid, though- I don't think you can have a liquid biostruct. If it's still alive, it may not be able to move. Solid suicidal soldiers are just fine, though. But really… just phlogiston? Why not make it sunmetal? :smallamused:

EDIT: Make them goldIn sunmetal biostructs with the Devil Eye graft and Grasping Mandibles. This allows them to create darkness around themselves that they can see through, grapple as a free action on a successful bite attack, and they deal one negative level per round while they grapple. If you wanted to be evil (duh), you create a bunch of Firesand-fueled Lightning Pools which you charge up. Your soldiers each grab a single pool of water which they store in a special sack. They can now detonate at will.

If only there were a way to make the brassbrush self-fueling. Being able to create a self-replicating plague of gold pole brassbrush to slowly plunge the world into a new ice-age would be fantastic. But it takes 500 lbs. of fuel to make 25 lbs. of brassbrush.

[Kellus]

Excellent comments about the consumption rate of poles! I hadn't considered fully how payment would occur when there are multiple features to be maintained every day and puissance needs to be supplied to them.

Here's my addition to the text of GEOC 101, I hope it's a satisfactory compromise! :smallsmile:


If a feature requires upkeep, that is, additional expenditure of metal or puissance to maintain itself, this can happen over time. An appropriate amount of puissance must be supplied to the pole to pay for the feature's upkeep; the full amount of puissance must be provided in 10 rounds. That is, at least one-tenth of the puissance must be supplied once a round for ten rounds, or until the full cost is paid. Payment is due at either midnight or midday, as chosen when the pole is established. If on a Plane without such times, payment is still due every 24 hours, starting from the establishment of the pole.

If there are multiple features which need to be supplied puissance to maintain, they can be paid one after the other, with no round in-between when no puissance is being transferred. If there is such a break, all of the necessary metal for remaining features is drawn from the body of the pole. If there is ever not enough mass in the pole to keep it above the critical limit, the pole collapses.


For example. If I use a Ballistic Engine to launch a bullet through a connected Semi-space will it continue at it's same speed through the portal?

Yes! Now you're thinking with portals :smallwink:


Will the 400-Principles for ELDK allow an engine to move at (or perhaps surpass) the speed of light? If so, would it be associated with the merging of the two Disciplines Yggdratecture and Eldrikinetics? Or perhaps Alchemetry to influence the mass of the object being "launched"?

The speed of light will factor heavily into a 400-level theory that connects ELDK with YGGD, and another theory will connect ALCH with ARCD using our old friend Albert E = MC squared, letting you convert mass into energy and vice-versa. That's all I'm gonna say about them until I have the maths under control, the current drafts are far too exploitable :smalltongue:

Appropriately enough I have a thermo-fluids final tomorrow, so I need to get to sleep, but tomorrow I hope to have up the arcanitect and perhaps the first 400-level theory!

[Necroticplague]

Well, the point of it is mainly to fuel the nice things we can have in other biomes. Those can be mixed into your desert biome, but if you want a couple of them, you'll need the firesand in your non-desert biome.

By the way, I salute your mad science! I would not make them into liquid, though- I don't think you can have a liquid biostruct. If it's still alive, it may not be able to move. Solid suicidal soldiers are just fine, though. But really… just phlogiston? Why not make it sunmetal? :smallamused:

EDIT: Make them goldIn sunmetal biostructs with the Devil Eye graft and Grasping Mandibles. This allows them to create darkness around themselves that they can see through, grapple as a free action on a successful bite attack, and they deal one negative level per round while they grapple. If you wanted to be evil (duh), you create a bunch of Firesand-fueled Lightning Pools which you charge up. Your soldiers each grab a single pool of water which they store in a special sack. They can now detonate at will.

If only there were a way to make the brassbrush self-fueling. Being able to create a self-replicating plague of gold pole brassbrush to slowly plunge the world into a new ice-age would be fantastic. But it takes 500 lbs. of fuel to make 25 lbs. of brassbrush.
Normally, you can't have a liquid biostructure because you can only turn solids into biostructure. However, it doesn't say that it has to stay solid afterwards. Plus, if we want to get real technical, they are technically "sprouted" solid, then their phlogistan effects kick in, and they then melt themselves. Being liquid is mostly just a bonus, of course, since it means that they can ooze under gates and through portcullises, murder holes, nets, snares and similar. Of course, this gives me an idea:Go in the opposite direction. Instead, increase the melting temperature, and then increase its heat capacity so that even though it's hotter than iron, it refuses to melt. Under their touch, weapons, gates, and locks (probably the door, too) are turned into a giant pile of slag. Of course, they'd need to be launched by seige launchers modified by ALCH101 so that they don't melt upon touching these abominations. Heck, even the ground would probably turn to sand as the walk over it, after burning out any vegetation. Takes a lot of time (a whole lot of ALCH101 prepping), but is totally worth it. Of course, speaking of the seige weapon, why can't those be made under a similar process? Make the troops/rounds and their launcher all in one go. Needs a hell of a lot of ebbs, but since they constantly emit massive amounts of heat, having them hold some lightning pool water and lug around an iceIn (set up insomewhere colder) will allow these huys to pay for themselves, ebbs-wise.

[Amechra]

Brassbush can only duplicate Copper or Iron for the purpose of what can be applied to them; it would be a lot more efficient to design a clump of Iron Brassbush that generates more desert, including more Brassbush, which basically lets you coat the world in Desert.

[QuidEst]

Brassbush can only duplicate Copper or Iron for the purpose of what can be applied to them; it would be a lot more efficient to design a clump of Iron Brassbush that generates more desert, including more Brassbush, which basically lets you coat the world in Desert.

Alchemetry lets you turn one metal into another, so you can grow Brassbrush as anything. Unfortunately, there's no way to provide enough fuel for it to make more Brassbrush.


However, it doesn't say that it has to stay solid afterwards.
Well, no. But that doesn't mean they still work when you melt them. If you melt a machine, it doesn't continue to function. People tend not to melt, preferring to ignite first, but if you could melt them, they would cease to function.

If you can get somebody who can swing the 85 DC check for sunmetal, I'd do that. If not, then phlogiston seems like a good choice.

Increasing heat capacity does not allow you to change temperature. It just means it's harder to cool off- but since it's already reheats if you try, I don't think that's relevant.


having them hold some lightning pool water and lug around an iceIn (set up insomewhere colder) will allow these huys to pay for themselves, ebbs-wise.
Unfortunately, I think it kills them…

Similarly, it also can only survive in a set temperature range (no more than a 100 degree Centigrade spread). You can set this range when you prepare the principle; ambient temperatures outside this range are treated as extreme weather for the biostructure.
You can either have them survive at phlogiston temperatures or the temperature of an iceIn, but if that ever switches, it'll start killing them at 1d6 lethal per minute, no save, plus fort saves against extra nonlethal damage. Which gives them a minute or two, unless the DM says they are "in contact with metal", which means 2d4 per round. But you can just grow some regular brassbrush phlogiston for them to use as fuel.

[Amechra]

Wait, Kellus, does Brassbush actually count as metal for the purpose of conversion? From how I read the entry on Brassbush, it just counts as Copper (or Iron) for the purposes of applying Copper/Iron stuff from Eldrikinetics and the like, not for the purpose of effects that generally affect metals.

EDIT: Also, Kellus and I are currently hashing out Platinum Arcanodynamics; it's quite rad.

And then... Platinum Geoccultism!

[Kellus]

Wait, Kellus, does Brassbush actually count as metal for the purpose of conversion? From how I read the entry on Brassbush, it just counts as Copper (or Iron) for the purposes of applying Copper/Iron stuff from Eldrikinetics and the like, not for the purpose of effects that generally affect metals.

This is the correct reading. It's not metal, it's plant matter that you can apply principles to as if it were copper. I can clarify this in the text!

[Arcanist]

This is the correct reading. It's not metal, it's plant matter that you can apply principles to as if it were copper. I can clarify this in the text!

Wondrous, Arcanodynamics just got all the more powerful and it really does resolve the Oxygen issue that I was having with creating a Spacefaring empire of Gramarie :smalltongue:

EDIT: Wait, do magically created plants actually go through photosynthesis? :smallconfused:

[ShadowFireLance]

Mister Kellus, That picture of Mewtwo is quite creepy...
Now, I thought I would suggest this:
Upper Krust, or the Creator of Immortals handbook, Has Sizes that might better fit your Colossal++(Insert many more +'s) Instead of just super Colossal sizes, Just a thought, Oh yeah, This is awesome, Now that I have actually read it.

[Draken]

Wondrous, Arcanodynamics just got all the more powerful and it really does resolve the Oxygen issue that I was having with creating a Spacefaring empire of Gramarie :smalltongue:

EDIT: Wait, do magically created plants actually go through photosynthesis? :smallconfused:

Make biostructure that breathes in carbon and exhales oxygen.

[ShadowFireLance]

Make biostructure that breathes in carbon and exhales oxygen.


Thanks a lot, Now I got a build running through about a Evolutionist that Is part of the Bio-Structure he creates to Produce Carbon in a experiment to make all the races breath it...Thanks draken...:smallannoyed:

[Arcanist]

Upper Krust, or the Creator of Immortals handbook, Has Sizes that might better fit your Colossal++(Insert many more +'s) Instead of just super Colossal sizes, Just a thought, Oh yeah, This is awesome, Now that I have actually read it.

EHHHHH~~~ I guess as long as you are snatching a rule from the Cursed Book of "Epic+" and not actually using the book shouldn't be too bad... :smallconfused:


Make biostructure that breathes in carbon and exhales oxygen.

WELL! I heard about this, but the idea of a creature inhaling a poisoness gas with NO relation to Oxygen save for a few related components and exhaling pure Oxygen sounds a little... "Broken"? I mean, a Gramarist has all the money he'll ever need if he just makes a Biostructure that eats meat and craps Platinum so... yeah... Idk how to explain it :smallredface:

EDIT: Just noticed if I really want a creature with an unlimited breath weapon I can just have a creature in exhale Pure Oxygen and with a lighter in front of their mouth (Or better yet for a more "controlled" fire you can just have the creature spit Gasoline) :smalltongue:

[ShadowFireLance]

EHHHHH~~~ I guess as long as you are snatching a rule from the Cursed Book of "Epic+" and not actually using the book shouldn't be too bad... :smallconfused:



now, Why do I feel odd about that comment?
:smallwink:
Oh yeah, I did that.

[Draken]

EHHHHH~~~ I guess as long as you are snatching a rule from the Cursed Book of "Epic+" and not actually using the book shouldn't be too bad... :smallconfused:



WELL! I heard about this, but the idea of a creature inhaling a poisoness gas with NO relation to Oxygen save for a few related components and exhaling pure Oxygen sounds a little... "Broken"? I mean, a Gramarist has all the money he'll ever need if he just makes a Biostructure that eats meat and craps Platinum so... yeah... Idk how to explain it :smallredface:

That is... Uh... Not broken at all? And written right there in the basic principle. Also, biostructure doesn't eat.

And technically it is Carbon Dioxide into Oxigen, which changes very litte in the end, merely swaping around the more usual breathing mechanism.

------------

Also, I'm of the oppinion that past colossal size, you should just stop using size categories and simply make use of areas.

[Lateral]

Hey, I was wondering if you could consider maybe improving the rules for ballistic weaponry. As it is, the damage output is... kind of pitiful, which makes eldrikinetic guns all but worthless. Maybe something that scaled with momentum, rather than just with mass.

[Arcanist]

That is... Uh... Not broken at all? And written right there in the basic principle. Also, biostructure doesn't eat.

And technically it is Carbon Dioxide into Oxigen, which changes very litte in the end, merely swaping around the more usual breathing mechanism.

I thought you meant an animated Biostructure in the multipurpose that could perform physically demanding labor on board the Space Ship. Moot really since


Biostructure doesn't need to eat or drink, but it does breathe (usually through noisy, rasping lungs that gasp at the air), which means that it can convert gases from one form to another. Your options for this conversion are between any two of the following gases: oxygen, carbon dioxide, ozone, nitrogen dioxide, or water vapour.

which is perfect for oxygen creation.

[Draken]

Yes, it is why I suggested it in the first place. You said you were having problems finding easy sources of oxigen and I pointed that out.

----

As for the balistic engine, isn't there a way to have it increase the ammount of push it can generate? As it stands the thing can't even ever be used to shoot an arrow. It seens.

[QuidEst]

EDIT: Just noticed if I really want a creature with an unlimited breath weapon I can just have a creature in exhale Pure Oxygen and with a lighter in front of their mouth (Or better yet for a more "controlled" fire you can just have the creature spit Gasoline) :smalltongue:

It does not exhale pure oxygen. It inhales air, and converts the carbon dioxide (or another gas from the list) to oxygen. It can't process diatomic nitrogen, which makes up most of the air, so you're still left with that. If it could exhale pure oxygen, I'd expect the breath weapon trick to simply ignite its lungs.


Hey, I was wondering if you could consider maybe improving the rules for ballistic weaponry. As it is, the damage output is... kind of pitiful, which makes eldrikinetic guns all but worthless. Maybe something that scaled with momentum, rather than just with mass.

In general, I've found Eldrikinetics to be a rather inefficient way to move things. I'd rather just grab YGGD 212 and make it fall with style. It takes about thirty of them to make a siege engine, so ten twenty-four hour days, but once you do that, you can just drop 200lb. rocks in to the bottom to launch them for 20d6 every round.

[Grimsage Matt]

It's a work in progress, but here's the first bit of the Troll Ebbshaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264697), a Troll that has a.... diffrent way of approching some parts of Gramire.

[Necroticplague]

Well, no. But that doesn't mean they still work when you melt them. If you melt a machine, it doesn't continue to function. People tend not to melt, preferring to ignite first, but if you could melt them, they would cease to function.If you can get somebody who can swing the 85 DC check for sunmetal, I'd do that. If not, then phlogiston seems like a good choice.
In real life? I would agree, because liquid organisms would have several issues with them. However, game worlds are made by the rules, which never say that creatures can't be liquid. Heck, the existance of water elementals and oozes provides some precedence for this being implicitly false. Seeing what starmetal does, though, I have to agree that it would be better to use that, though, since it's easier to handle (have some undead do it), and it has the advantage of being a gold-in.


Increasing heat capacity does not allow you to change temperature. It just means it's harder to cool off- but since it's already reheats if you try, I don't think that's relevant.
While I don't know much about the way heat capacity works real life, I think we can make it so it gets increased to a higher temperature from its own heat. Normally it would be raised to 1000 degrees, but if it has a heat capacity result of 1.5 (a 15 on the check), the amount it would be heated (1000 degrees) up by would be multiplied by that amount (1.5), making the creature 1500 degrees (but only giving off 1000 degrees heat).



Unfortunately, I think it kills them…
You can either have them survive at phlogiston temperatures or the temperature of an iceIn, but if that ever switches, it'll start killing them at 1d6 lethal per minute, no save, plus fort saves against extra nonlethal damage. Which gives them a minute or two, unless the DM says they are "in contact with metal", which means 2d4 per round. But you can just grow some regular brassbrush phlogiston for them to use as fuel.
Hmmm....yeah, nothing I can do to get around that, except maybe by abusing the heck out of a definition of "range". Doesn't say a continuous range, so could it have a range of (-20 to 20)U(1530 to 1590) {in set notation, [-20,20]U[1530,1590]}.Probably not, this is the part I've most definitely got wrong.
Although, they do make the area around them hot, so you could have them set the ambient temperature for a mercuryIn, then simply move it (the mercuryIn) elsewhere and it'll start producing ebbs (since once set up, it will maintain its astronomical temperature), allowing them to pay for their own ebbs without having them have heat troubles. Assuming room temperature of 20 degrees, and the bubble is set to 1000 degrees using the creatures, this should make (1000-20)/10 ebbs per round, which I think comes out to 98 (distribute the 1/10th [x/10=.1x] to 1000 and 20=100-2=98). Pays for itself in one round, while providing enough spares to use for other things.


Although, all this back-and forth brings an image to my head of a world using grammary with an annual meeting, where specialists of different types meet to make plans and everyone shows off what they've done. And most of the exhibits have to be split into two types: safe, and unsafe. Safe has things like using chassis that give off light due to clever ways they make their own ebbs and being goldOuts, unsafe has a salt lake that uses red, blue, and orange filters with some prismatic reefs to create a zone of ocean water that perpetually steam, despite having perfectly swimmable water right next to it.

[Morcleon]

About the heat range problem... You could just have a silver transformer set to cast manifest Adapt Body on it every 18 hrs... :smallbiggrin:

[sirpercival]

And the Ayuscientist (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8477.0), a gramarie/incarnum prestige class.

[ShadowFireLance]

So, Correct me if im wrong, But it would take roughly 27-28 years for one Gramarist to make the Pyramid of Giza.
Am I right?

[sreservoir]

And the Ayuscientist (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8477.0), a gramarie/incarnum prestige class.

I suppose it provides no incarnum advancement other than the chakra binds if entered through the feat approach and no meldshaping class levels?

also: wrt that board, would it be considered preferable to discuss in individual threads, or do we also need discussion threads for everything that needs discussion, or should the discussion just go here, or ??

[Lateral]

It does not exhale pure oxygen. It inhales air, and converts the carbon dioxide (or another gas from the list) to oxygen. It can't process diatomic nitrogen, which makes up most of the air, so you're still left with that. If it could exhale pure oxygen, I'd expect the breath weapon trick to simply ignite its lungs.
If you want to use biostructure to make fire, you convert oxygen to ozone. Oxygen makes up about 21% of the atmosphere, and ozone can deflagrate at about 10%.


In general, I've found Eldrikinetics to be a rather inefficient way to move things. I'd rather just grab YGGD 212 and make it fall with style. It takes about thirty of them to make a siege engine, so ten twenty-four hour days, but once you do that, you can just drop 200lb. rocks in to the bottom to launch them for 20d6 every round.
It does kind of end up being that you need incredibly massive engines to move the larger sizes of airship, yeah, and the damage output from ballistic engines is pretty unimpressive. I would really push for some modifications to those rules- it seems like the current method handles the intermediate sizes pretty well, but falls down at high speeds or high bulk ratings. Of course, you can always do arcanodynamic weapons, but I think that being able to actually make true gramaric guns and long-range cannons would be nice.

[sirpercival]

I suppose it provides no incarnum advancement other than the chakra binds if entered through the feat approach and no meldshaping class levels? Also meldshaper level, but yes. Should I require knowledge of more than one soulmeld?


also: wrt that board, would it be considered preferable to discuss in individual threads, or do we also need discussion threads for everything that needs discussion, or should the discussion just go here, or ?? You can discuss in the class thread, in this thread, or in the general discussion thread on that board (which should be stickied soon).

[Kellus]

the larger sizes of airship, yeah, and the damage output from ballistic engines is pretty unimpressive. I would really push for some modifications to those rules- it seems like the current method handles the intermediate sizes pretty well, but falls down at high speeds or high bulk ratings. Of course, you can always do arcanodynamic weapons, but I think that being able to actually make true gramaric guns and long-range cannons would be nice.

I'm looking into changes that should be made to eldrikinetics, I'm playtesting components of it right now IRL. Should have more shortly!


also: wrt that board, would it be considered preferable to discuss in individual threads, or do we also need discussion threads for everything that needs discussion, or should the discussion just go here, or ??

Post wherever you like! I'm maintaining both this thread as a general resource, and the forum for more in-depth discussion. For example, if you have massive beef with a particular prestige class or principle, might make more sense to post in the thread about that component over on minmax. But put it wherever you like, I'm monitoring both and will try to answer any questions in either places as best as I can!

[Kellus]

Double post, but everyone should take a look at the awesome platinum transformers that Amechra came up with!


ARCD 365: Unsubstantiated Light [Specialist]
Grade: Doctorate
Prerequisite: Any three ARCD principles, Use Magic Device 15 ranks
Target: 1 cubic foot of lead
Preparation Time: 1 hour

This principle works like ARCD 101, except that it allows you to use lead for your arcanodynamics in addition to any other materials you know.
Lead: A leaden transformer channels nuclear energy by capturing and controlling the energy contained within radiomantic materials.
Input: Radiomantic input absorbs the negative levels that a radiomantic element normally gives off (typically sunmetal, as described in alchemetrics). Every cubic foot of radiomantic material that is inside the net produces 10 ebbs every round. A single cubic foot of radiomantic material can provide up to 10 minutes of energy before it becomes inert. While it is within a lead input net, radiomantic material can be handled safely and cannot explode.
Output: Radiomantic output deals negative levels to everyone in the area at a rate of 1 per round. The DC to remove them is 25. Every negative level given out requires 5 ebbs; the field starts by targeting the lowest Hit Die creature in the area, and working its way up from there. Excess ebbs are transformed into 1d6 hellfire damage each that is dealt as a lump sum to every creature inside of the net (Fortitude save against the Use Magic Device check for half damage).
Platinum: A platinum transformer channels faith by refracting the prayers of the faithful and interceding in the flow of the divine.
Input: Prayer input creates a field where prayers do not reach their target deity. This blocks the ability for a deity to hear or acknowledge the prayers of their followers. Even a salient divine ability such as True Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#trueKnowledge) is unable to penetrate the divine firewall established in the area. This field absorbs prayers and chants of faith, as well as attempts to regain divine spells. Particular spells which specifically request a boon from a patron deity, such as a miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) spell or a commune (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commune.htm) spell are similarly absorbed. Every round, a single devout being inside the area praying generates 1 ebb of puissance; this petitioner must be truly of the faith, and not merely going through the motions. Churches that can afford them regularly use platinum transformers to test their congregation's faithfulness (and who says science and religion can't get along?). If a divine spellcaster attempts to regain their spells while in a platinum inpur field, they fail to regain any spell slots, and 1 ebb is generated for every spell level that they would have regained. A specific spell that requests intercession which is cast in the field similarly fails, and also produces 1 ebb per spell level.
Output: Prayer output transforms energy into prayers which are sent to a particular pantheon or deity. A platinum transformer can be prepared to specifically target one patron, or it can be built more generally, in which case the target deity or pantheon can be changed as a logical decision for the transformer. Prayers take many forms, but in general this consists of a message (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/message.htm) effect, sent directly to the patron (or to their agents, depending on how that deity deals with prayers). The message can contain a number of words equal to the amount of puissance put out in ebbs. This is often a convenient way of providing gods with raw power, as many of them can make use of puissance themselves; typically the target deity generates 1 ebb for every five words in the message. If at least 3 ebbs are transmitted in this way, a consecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/consecrate.htm) effect occurs in the output net for a good-aligned deity, and a desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm) effect occurs for an evil deity. Prayers sent to neutral deities can generate either kind of field, as chosen with a logical decision. The effect lasts for 1 hour per word transmitted. If at least 15 ebbs are sent to a deity using this kind of tranformer, a temporary hallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hallow.htm) or unhallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unhallow.htm) effect occurs, as appropriate, for the same amount of time (no material component required). If at least 100 ebbs are transformed into prayer, a miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) is generated in the area. The exact details of the miracle vary, and can be chosen as a logical decision, but are limited to any of the effects which do not require an XP expenditure.

Also, the ayuscientist is pretty awesome, I'm putting a link to it on the front page as well!

[Necroticplague]

I actually like the idea of the platOut. After all, we try and such things in real life, despite absolute knowlege of whether dieties exist. In DnD, where they do objectively exist, it makes sense that the art of faith healing and similar would actually be perfected into a science.Also, you might want to note whether platIn negates the effects caused by platOut, i.e., if it can supress already-present divine magic, like desecrate and unhallow.

[Milo v3]

As a person who cannot view the MinMax forums, could someone post the Ayuscientist somewhere on gitp?

[Kellus]

I actually like the idea of the platOut. After all, we try and such things in real life, despite absolute knowlege of whether dieties exist. In DnD, where they do objectively exist, it makes sense that the art of faith healing and similar would actually be perfected into a science.Also, you might want to note whether platIn negates the effects caused by platOut, i.e., if it can supress already-present divine magic, like desecrate and unhallow.

It explicity does not, unless the relevant spell specifically contacts a deity for aid or advice. It blocks communication with the divine, not all forms of divine magic.

[ShadowFireLance]

Alright, this is HUGE, And Im still not sure I understand it all, hell, I am not even touching the Yggdrarchitecture and the others besides Biollurgy....:smallsigh:

Now, Using this system, Is it possible to start a factory that can convert say...Dirt to Gold?

[radmelon]

I don't think dirt, but Tin easily. Or any other cheap metal.

[ShadowFireLance]

A few questions (To Anyone who can tell me)

1.) How? Please Explain.

2.) Sunmetal, And the other THings i have not heard of: How much do they cost?

[Amechra]

Alchemetry can convert one "planetary metal" to another quite easily.

Sunmetal and such are produced by the Doctorate Specialized Principle for Alchemetry. Make sure you can get the DC 85 Diplomacy check!

[ShadowFireLance]

Oh, Well shows, I have not read Alchemetry...:smallannoyed:
Only Biollurgy, part of Eldrikinetics, and Arcanodynamics

[Amechra]

Don't worry, I've pretty much memorized the damn thing, since I'm going to be running a game with it...

[Kellus]

Oh, Well shows, I have not read Alchemetry...:smallannoyed:
Only Biollurgy, part of Eldrikinetics, and Arcanodynamics

It's okay; I know it's really confusing, I'm sorry it isn't easier to grasp. I'm writing out a beginner's guide to gramarie, at someone else's request– so don't think you're the only one! The main thing to grasp with the system is that what you do with it is entirely up to you. If you want to build or design something, there's probably a way to do it, and if there isn't you should let me know so I can make one. The only limit is your imagination! :smallsmile:

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/310/357/77f.jpg

EDIT: Okay, that's just a lie, there are like a million limits aside from imagination, but most of them you can work around with sufficient quntities of the latter.

[QuidEst]

In real life? I would agree, because liquid organisms would have several issues with them. However, game worlds are made by the rules, which never say that creatures can't be liquid. Heck, the existance of water elementals and oozes provides some precedence for this being implicitly false.
The game rules also don't say that you can't shoot lasers from your eyes. Oozes and water elementals exist in liquid (or semi-liquid) states naturally- if you managed to freeze them solid, they wouldn't function. When you create your biostruct, it must be solid. So it has means to move, breathe, and eat designed for a solid form. If you melt it, you remove its means of moving, breathing, and eating. Until you provide it with means of moving, breathing, and eating, it is going to be dead. Failing that, I'm going to invoke the Chunky Salsa rule on this.

EDIT: Now, while Grammarie does follow a lot of physical rules, magic has ways around them! Seven ebbs into a silverOut gets you fourteen minutes of gaseous form. More than enough time to get into wherever you need to be! I'd say to use Ghostgrass, but unfortunately, if you've got your beasties made out of phlogiston, they'll burn it up instead of eating it.


While I don't know much about the way heat capacity works real life, I think we can make it so it gets increased to a higher temperature from its own heat. Normally it would be raised to 1000 degrees, but if it has a heat capacity result of 1.5 (a 15 on the check), the amount it would be heated (1000 degrees) up by would be multiplied by that amount (1.5), making the creature 1500 degrees (but only giving off 1000 degrees heat).
Few points… one, it's actually the reverse. A low specific heat means that a given amount of heat will raise the temperature more. (Water has high specific heat, and thus is difficult to warm or cool; silver has a low specific heat, and thus warms and cools rapidly.) Secondly, phlogiston does not emit a given heat, it emits a given temperature. Specific heat will only change how long something takes to reach that temperature. Thirdly, you are partially correct. Raising the specific heat means that there is more heat for a given temperature. Unfortunately, this isn't very useful because phlogiston already provides you with any amount of heat required to reach a temperature of 1000°C.
The place specific heat would be useful is: put something with a high specific heat next to phlogiston. Then take it away. It will stay warm longer than something with a low specific heat.


Hmmm....yeah, nothing I can do to get around that, except maybe by abusing the heck out of a definition of "range". Doesn't say a continuous range, so could it have a range of (-20 to 20)U(1530 to 1590) {in set notation, [-20,20]U[1530,1590]}.Probably not, this is the part I've most definitely got wrong.
Well, I'd consider using failure to specify something in mathematical terminology to fall in a similar category to simply asking the DM to houserule. Still, Lawful Neutral DMs would be likely to consider it. :smalltongue: In this case, like you said, it is covered. (Good try, though!)
(no more than a 100 degree Centigrade spread)Your spread is going to include stuff you skipped.



Although, they do make the area around them hot, so you could have them set the ambient temperature for a mercuryIn
Well, I think that would work in theory- in practice, though, the DC to raise the melting point of Mercury to above 1000°C is going to be pretty close to 1000.



If you want to use biostructure to make fire, you convert oxygen to ozone. Oxygen makes up about 21% of the atmosphere, and ozone can deflagrate at about 10%.
Ooh, nice- I forgot about those spare oxygen atoms kicking around in ozone and spoiling for a reaction.


I'm looking into changes that should be made to eldrikinetics, I'm playtesting components of it right now IRL. Should have more shortly!
Awesome! :smallbiggrin: Eldrikinetics does improve considerably when you can start passing out ebbs like Halloween candy, but it would be nice to be able to get reasonable mileage before you hit the free energy loops.


The effect lasts for 1 hour per word transmitted
Maybe a little language in here saying that these times don't stack- that the duration is reset if a new duration would last longer? Cool addition! I'm glad to see that one get two transformers like the others. :smallbiggrin:


This principle works like ARCD 101, except that it allows you to use lead for your arcanodynamics in addition to any other materials you know.
Speaking of two transformers, just a minor correction- it still just lists lead.

[ShadowFireLance]

Scared of myself now...
Ozodrin 20, Evolutionist 20, Gramarieist 20....
Now is one pile of awesome..Or perhaps..
Ozodrin 20, Evolutionist 20, Gramarieist 20, Xenoalchemist 20...
Now really scared

[Kellus]

The Arcanitect


"Oh yeah, the giant mechanical crab boat? I came up with that. Now, not labeling the levers, that was a stroke of genius."

http://th04.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2012/115/c/3/crazy_inventer_by_warlordwardog-d4xiovx.jpg
Image credit SBraithwaite (http://sbraithwaite.deviantart.com/) of deviantart.com.

The foundation of all gramarie, of all life, of all everything, is energy. Energy is the stock-and-trade of the cosmos. It's found in the light of distant stars as equally as in every inch of our bodies. Energy is the prime resource, the primary product of everything everywhere. Which is why it sucks that so much of it is inaccessible to us. This is the prime difficulty faced by those who study the transfer and change of energy, transforming it from one useless state into another which can be used for any number of marvels. The best of these academes, known as arcanitects, know more about the flow and transformation of energy than nearly anyone else– enough to know that our universe seems to be running out of usable sources of it. Their goal, perhaps the only goal that matters in the grand scheme, is to discover some way to save the cosmos from the most pedestrian and disappointing fate imaginable: death by disorder.

Requirements: To become an arcanitect you must meet all of the following requirements.
Feat: Craft Wondrous Item
Gramarie: Any two ARCD principles
Skills: Craft (any) 8 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Use Magic Device 10 ranks
Special: Must have the eldritch blast class features
Specialization: Must be specialized in Arcanodynamics.

Hit Die: d4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Skills: An arcanitect's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

The Arcanitect
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Principles|
Craft Conversion

1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Arcane conservation, eldritch blast +1d6, essence of arcana (silver)|
+0|
25

2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Energy equations, essence of arcana (wood)|
+1|
50

3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Eldritch blast +2d6, essence of arcana (crystal)|
+2|
75

4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Energy equations, essence of arcana (gold)|
+3|
100

5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Bonus feat, eldritch blast +3d6, essence of arcana (copper)|
+3|
125

6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Energy equations, essence of arcana (tin)|
+4|
150

7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Eldritch blast +4d6, essence of arcana (ice)|
+5|
175

8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|Energy equations, essence of arcana (mercury)|
+6|
200

9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|Bonus feat, eldritch blast +5d6, essence of arcana (lead)|
+6|
225

10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Arrow of time, energy equations, essence of arcana (platinum)|
+7|
250

[/table]

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the arcanitect.

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: As an arcanitect, you gain no additional weapon or armour proficiencies.

Arcane Conservation (Su): Energy moneychanging is the secret behind all gramarie, and an arcanitect leverages this in more traditional realms. Every level, you have a limit called a craft conversion limit, as shown on your class table. Whenever you craft an item, you can use this ability if you have a supply of puissance in order to supplement the normal cost with raw arcane energy. You can convert an amount of XP for these items equal to your craft conversion limit by transforming ten times that amount of puissance during the crafting. You can split up the cost of puissance over the course of the crafting, but you can cannot exceed your craft conversion limit on any one project. This limit is 25 XP (250 ebbs) at 1st level, and increases by 25 every level. Knowledge of this fundamental connection grants you a competence bonus on Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device checks equal to half your class level. This class stacks with any one previous class to determine your caster level.

Essence of Arcana (Su): Arcanitects use the ideas behind gramarie to augment more traditional crafting methods; the skilled arcanitect forsakes neither for the other, but instead blends them together. Whenever you craft an item, you can imbue it with puissant energy, as described in the conservation of arcana class feature (see above). If you have attained the appropriate level of achievement, you can get extra effect from this ability. This additional effect depends on the transformer that is providing the puissance for the process; if the puissance for the crafting comes from multiple, liquid, sources, choose one of the types of transformer used in the crafting to dominate. At 1st level you can only use puissance from silver transformers for this ability, but as you advance you learn to harness the energy from many different kinds.

Silver: This essence retains some memory of the raw magical energy channeled by the silver transformer. The object imbued glows under moonlight or in the presence of moonsilver. It gains a bonus to its caster level equal to your Intelligence modifier at the time of crafting, but no larger than half your class level at that point. This bonus can allow the spell to exceed normal limitations which are based on caster level, such as the maximum dice limit on a fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm).
Wood: Wood remembers being alive and thus remembers the flow of puissance. The object imbued seems to be carved from a single continuous piece of wood, no matter what it's actually made from. It can act as a reservoir for puissance, and can hold a number of ebbs of puissance equal to its caster level. If it is used to make an attack roll, 5 ebbs of puissance can be spent from this reserve by the wielder as a swift action to guarantee a critical threat on the attack roll if the attack would otherwise hit. This does not count as a natural 20.
Crystal: This is a resonant essence which echoes with the same vibrations as the crystal that provided the power for the crafting. It has strange refractive properties, and glitters as total internal reflection occurs inside of it; its refractive index is at least 2.5, if not otherwise higher. The object imbued hums quietly, and can be persuaded to resonate more frequently, and in certain patterns. If the object is activated with a command word, it can be programmed to speak the command word itself as a logical decision when it is hooked up to a heuristical circuit.
Gold: The essence of the sun is retained even through the mere memory of association with gold. The object imbued restores itself in sunlight; every round spend in direct sunlight restores 1 hit point to it. It can also burn with the intensity of the sun; activating this effect is a standard action while touching the object. It begins to consume itself at a rate of 5 hit points per caster level per round, but during that period the DC of any of its effects increases by +3.
Copper: Copper is a curious metal, and the memory of its touch is like lightning. The object imbued lets off a static shock every time it's touched or handled, and it attracts smaller metallic objects. If the object is hooked up to an electric current, a daily use of it can be activated with sufficient electric power. This requires 10W of electric power per caster level over a single round, and can only be used to provide up to three extra daily uses per day.
Tin: This essence recalls the caustic energies channeled by tin. The object imbued is immune to the touch of any form of alkahest, no matter what it's made of. If the object manipulates water in any way, then after it finishes with its normal use the water is treated as if it were transformed into an amount of acid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm) equal to its previous volume. Note that a 'flask' of acid is traditionally a single pint.
Ice: Those touched by ice burn with passionate intensity! The object imbued is always warm to the touch, never falling below a surface temperature of 0 Centigrade. If the object deals damage, whether through a spell effect or otherwise, the damage is transformed into fire damage. If the object is hooked up to a circuit and at least 1 ebb for every 5 points of damage is provided upon activation, the damage is hellfire damage instead.
Mercury: This essence is strange and fluid, somewhat like the nature of mercury itself. The object imbued functions normally if reduced to a liquid state, as long as it is not separated from the main volume. It can even be diluted with other liquids, and will still function properly when distilled out of them (a DC 15 Craft (alchemy) check). The object also provides a kind of temporal grounding effect; it continues to function normally during the apparent time of a time stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm) effect, and if it is large enough for people to fit inside, they are similarly able to act during such time as long as they remain enclosed by the object.
Lead: Lead's essence is a paradox; it's the strongest protection known, but also dangerous. The object imbued blocks any effect which is specifically blocked by lead, as if it were made of lead itself. If the obejct somehow deals negative levels, it deals two additional negative levels whenever it would do so.
Platinum: Sometimes called the king of metals, platinum's memory retains a connection to the divine. The object imbued can be keyed to a specific faith, and only activated or used by those of that faith. The DC for a Use Magic Device check to activate the object also increases by 10 if the wielder is not of the correct faith; the object also can be used as a symbol for divine energy. Divine spellcasters who use an object imbued with platinum as a holy symbol gain an extra use of every spell level every day (domain-only spells if they're a cleric) which need to be channeled through the platinum-imbued object.

Energy Equations (Ex): At 2 nd level, and every two levels thereafter, you learn an important equation relating to the flow of energy in gramaric systems. This is a discovery which can be applied to your arcanodynamic studies.
Bigby's Prime Analysis: This equation describes the connection between voltage and puissance. Physically conductive metal, such as copper, can now be used to transport puissance; if the metal is connected to a circuit, puissance which is placed into one part of it can be drawn out of another part of it on the same turn. Puissant flow degrades, at a rate of 1 ebb lost in every transfer for every 10ft. moved. A given circuit can only draw from one metal connection per round.
Drawmij's Algorithm: This equation describes how geoccult poles break down in an area of radiomantic imbalance. Knowing it allows you to produce the same effect with a less drastic input; sunlight radiating out from your gold transformers now threatens to destabilize geoccult poles the same way that a sunmetal explosion does.
Evard's Numerical Analysis: This equation describes the flow of heat into an area filled with cold energy. Cones of cold energy created with a mercury transformer no longer simply evaporate; Evard's last alorithm tells us that the cold energy has to go somewhere, and it ends up forming a sphere with the same volume as the cone. Anyone who passes through the sphere is subject to the intial effect of the cone; the cone lasts for 1 round per ebb. It tends to flow along heat gradients, and moves at 30ft. per round towards the largest source of fire damage in the previous round or, failing that, the warmest location, inside 200ft.
Leomund's Inequality: This equation describes a strange fluctuation that occurs when comparing a platinum transformer's acion in a separate case involving quasi-deities. Knowing it allows you to have your platinum transformer input nets stop binders from contacting vestiges, as well as its normal uses.
Melf's Special Case: This equation describes the alternation of alkalinity with acidity for the special case where a copper transformer is involved. Knowing it allows you to have your copper transformers output basic media instead of acidic media, which deals the same amount of acid damage.
Mordenkainen's Transport Theorem: This equation describes the conservation of arcane energy on either sides of a silver transformer. Knowing it allows you to redefine the assumptions most people make about them; thanks to a greater understanding, you can store two spells in the same output transformer, which can be activated independantly of each other, or even simultaneously if twice the combined cost of puissance for the two spells is provided.
Nolzur's Identity: This equation describes the fundamental connection between puissance and life, previously only seen in wood transformers. Knowing it allows you to treat any living thing, not just plant material, as if it were appropriate to construct a wood transformer. This works just like normal, but it allows you to turn living creatures or animal matter into 'wood' transformers.
Otiluke's Paradox: This equation describes the apparent impossibility of sound developing in silence, based on a view of sound using a model of heat flow. Knowing it allows you to ignore the silencing effect of a crystal transformer, without changing the amount of energy intake. In order to apply this equation, the ambient temperature in the crystal net needs to be above 45 Centigrade.
Otto's Last Theorem: This equation describes the emotional aspect to fire in addition to the purely physical. Knowing it allows you to draw 1 ebb per round from individuals under a rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rage.htm) effect or similar condition if they are in the input net for your ice transformers.
Tasha's Finite Decay: This equation is no laughing matter; it describes the lifespan of a radiomantic metal. While one of your lead transformers is giving off nuclear energy, it can now explode as if it were made of sunmetal.

Principles of Gramarie: You continue to advance your study of gramarie. At 2nd level, and again whenever indicated on the class table, you learn a new principle of gramarie that you qualify for. At 7th level you gain access to Doctorate-level principles, and can refer to yourself as a doctor of any discipline you attain that level of knowledge in.

Bonus Feat: At 5th level and again at 9th level you kind of get screwed since you don't learn a new principle. Instead, you get a free bonus feat with the [Item Creation] tag instead!

Arrow of Time (Su): At 10th level you discover one of the most amazing theorems in arcanodynamic studies, the principle of reverse entropy. Time is only an illusion created by our perception of the universe's flow from order to disorder. This idea, however, lets you reverse the normal decay associated with entropy. Input transformers that you make which normally generate 1 ebb for every 6 points of damage now only require 1d6 points of damage; the exact conversion is semi-random and rolled when energy input occurs. Output transformers which normally produce 1d6 points of damage per ebb now always deal maximum damage.

[ShadowFireLance]

Hohohho, New One eh? Awesome! (From what I have read/understand)

[Amechra]

So... where are we supposed to get watts from?

[Kellus]

So... where are we supposed to get watts from?

You can produce voltage with the regular output from a copper transformer. OBVIOUSLY, GOD.

[Amechra]

But I refuse!

What then, good sir?

(OK, so I forgot that copper emits in watts...)

[sirpercival]

Arcanitect looks bossmagic!

Oh, and apologies; here's...


The Ayuscientist


"Why do you say that I am alone?
My body is with me wherever I am,
telling me endless stories
of hunger and satisfaction,
weariness and sleep,
eating and drinking and breathing and life.
With such company
who could ever be alone?
And even when my body wears away
and leaves only some tiny spark
I will not be alone
for the gods will see my small light
tracing the dance of woodgrain on the floor
and they will know me,
they will say my name
and I will rise."

From The God Whispers of Han Qing-Jao

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/281/7/1/connection_by_vanisla-d4c65i1.png
Image credit ~Vanisla (http://vanisla.deviantart.com/) of deviantart.com

What is a soul? It has either great value or none at all. Most living beings will never notice their soul, never give more than a few minutes thought about it. And yet, gods and demons covet such things, and construct elaborate schemes to gain possession a soul after its original owner has passed on. You have learned to shape the raw soul energy permeating the Universe, known as incarnum, using gramaric techniques. You have also learned how to use your body's own internal foci to increase the effectiveness of your gramaric principles.

Requirements: To become an ayuscientist you must meet all of the following requirements.
Gramarie: Any four principles from different disciplines
Skills: Knowledge (arcana or planes) 10 ranks
Meldshaping: Ability to shape soulmelds, ability to bind a soulmeld to a chakra

Hit Die: d6
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifer

Class Skills: An ayuscientist's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (the Planes) (Int), Knowledge (psionics) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis) and Use Magic Device (Cha).

The Ayuscientist
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|
Principles|Meldshaping
1st|+0|+2|+0|+2|Chakra bind (least), essential knowledge (HEUR)|
+1|–
2nd|+1|+3|+0|+3|Essential knowledge (ALCH), thesis animae|
+1|+1 level of existing meldshaping class
3rd|+1|+3|+1|+3|Essential knowledge (IMCH), magisterial principles|
+2|+1 level of existing meldshaping class
4th|+2|+4|+1|+4|Essential knowledge (BIOY), thesis animae|
+2|+1 level of existing meldshaping class
5th|+2|+4|+1|+4|Chakra bind (lesser), essential knowledge (GEOC)|
+3|–
6th|+3|+5|+2|+5|Essential knowledge (YGGD), thesis animae|
+3|+1 level of existing meldshaping class
7th|+3|+5|+2|+5|Doctorate principles, essential knowledge (ELDK)|
+4|+1 level of existing meldshaping class
8th|+4|+6|+2|+6|Essential knowledge (KALD), thesis animae|
+4|+1 level of existing meldshaping class
9th|+4|+6|+3|+6|Chakra bind (greater), essential knowledge (ARCD)|
+5|–
10th|+5|+7|+3|+7|Essential knowledge (transcendance), thesis animae|
+5|+1 level of existing meldshaping class[/table]

All of the following are class features of the ayuscientist.

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: As an ayuscientist, you gain no additional weapon or armour proficiencies.

Meldshaping: At each ayuscientist level indicated on the table above, you increase your meldshaper level, the number of soulmelds you can shape, the number of chakra binds you can create, and your essentia pool as if you had gained a level in a meldshaping class to which you belonged prior to gaining the ayuscientist level. You do not, however, gain any other abilities of that class, such as new tiers of chakra binds. If you had more than one meldshaping class before becoming an ayuscientist, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining your essentia pool, meldshaper level, and number of soulmelds and chakra binds available.

Chakra binds: As you attain higher levels, you can bind your soulmelds and magic items to your chakras, gaining new powers based on the combination chosen. At 1st level, you can bind your soulmelds or magic items to your least chakras (crown, feet, and hands), in addition to any other chakras you have available. When you attain 5th level, your lesser chakras (arms, brow, and shoulders) become available for chakra binds. Upon reaching 9th level, you can bind soulmelds or magic items to your greater chakras (throat and waist).

Principles of Gramarie: You continue to advance your study of gramarie. At 1st level, and every odd level after, you learn a new principle of gramarie that you qualify for. Beginning at 3rd level, you may select Magisterial-level principles; at 7th level you gain access to Doctorate-level principles, and can refer to yourself as a doctor of any discipline you attain that level of knowledge in. At all times, your choice of specialty dictates which individual principles are available for you to learn.

Essential Knowledge (Su): Through your training, you develop a bond between gramarie and incarnum, using the themes and ideals of the gramaric disciplines to gain new functionality with your soulmelds.
At 1st level, you draw upon your knowledge of Heuristicism to join disparate elements into mystical circuits. When you shape soulmelds for the day, you may choose two soulmelds. As long as you have both of those soulmelds shaped, you can transfer essentia between them as a free action, even when it isn't your turn. Redistributing essentia between either of those soulmelds and any other essentia receptacles you have requires a swift action, as normal.
At 2nd level, the techniques of Alchemetry teach you how to alter the fundamental properties of your soulmelds. When you shape soulmelds for the day, you may choose to bind one of your soulmelds to a chakra with which it is not normally associated, but still gaining the normal benefit from the soulmeld's chakra bind. Both the original chakra and the new one must be chakras to which you can bind soulmelds. For example, if you wanted to bind both Diadem of Purelight and Enigma Helm, you could bind the latter to your Hands chakra and still gain the benefit of the Crown bind, as long as you had the ability to bind soulmelds to both your Crown and Hands chakras.
At 3rd level, you learn how to alter the visual aspects of your soulmelds using the axioms of Imachination. You may suppress or resume the visual manifestation of any of your soulmelds as a free action; a soulmeld whose visuals are suppressed still grants you its normal benefits.
At 4th level, your facility with Biollurgy teaches you how to tap into your physical essence when you bind soulmelds. When you shape soulmelds for the day, you may choose one soulmeld which you have bound to a chakra. You gain a primary natural attack based on the chakra to which that soulmeld is bound, as shown in the table below. If the soulmeld already grants you a natural attack mode, this ability instead increases the damage of that natural attack mode by one size category. The base damage given in the table is for a Medium-sized creature; if you are larger or smaller than Medium, adjust the damage amount accordingly.
{table=head]Chakra|Natural Attack Mode|Damage
Crown|Gore|1d6 piercing
Feet|Hoof|1d6 bludgeoning
Hands|2 claws|1d4 piercing
Arms|Slam|1d6 bludgeoning
Brow|Gore|1d8 piercing
Shoulders|2 pincers|1d6 slashing
Throat|Bite|1d8 bludgeoning and piercing
Waist|Tail|1d8 bludgeoning
Heart|2 wing|1d8 bludgeoning
Soul|4 tentacles|1d4 slashing[/table]
At 5th level, your studies of Geoccultism grant you the ability to tap into the subtle, potent energy of ley lines to aid your soulmelds. When you shape soulmelds for the day, you may choose one soulmeld and one type of terrain (arctic, desert, forest, grasslands, ocean, swamp, underground, or wetland). Whenever you are within the chosen terrain, if you have the chosen soulmeld shaped, its essentia capacity increases by 1, and you gain 1 temporary essentia which can only be invested in that soulmeld.
At 6th level, you learn to apply your knowledge of Yggdratechture to store soulmelds in extra dimensions. You may shape one additional soulmeld per day; however, you store the additional soulmeld in an ectradimensional space, where it grants you no benefit. As a standard action, you may exchange a stored soulmeld with any other soulmeld you have shaped which is not bound to a chakra. You may reallocate your essentia as part of the same action.
At 7th level, the tenets of Eldrikinetics show you how to transfer essentia rapidly from one place to another. As a full-round action, you may transfer any amount of essentia up to your class level from your essentia pool to that of another creature you touch. That creature may invest the essentia in its receptacles and soulmelds as part of the same action. The transferred essentia remains in the other creature's pool for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution modifier before returning to your pool.
At 8th level, you draw upon your knowledge of Kaleidomantics to gain prismatic defenses from your soulmelds. When you shape soulmelds for the day, you may choose one color from the table below for each soulmeld you shape. For each soulmeld altered this way, you gain a bonus on saves against the associated effect equal to the twice amount of essentia invested in that soulmeld. Applying a color this way similarly colors the visual manifestation of a given soulmeld (if any).
{table=head]Color|Associated Effect
Black|Mind-affecting
Blue|Electricity
Green|Poison and disease
Indigo|Acid
Orange|Sonic
Red|Cold and Fire
Violet|Positive or Negative Energy
Yellow|Force[/table]
At 9th level, you learn to apply your experience with Arcanodynamics to convert energy into essentia. You gain Spell Resistance 10 + your meldshaper level, which you can raise or lower as a free action. Whenever a spell fails to penetrate your resistance, you convert that spell energy into incarnum, gaining 1 temporary essentia for every two levels of the defeated spell (minimum 1 essentia). You may invest the temporary essentia in your soulmelds immediately, and it lasts for 1 round per 2 caster levels of the defeated spell (minimum 1 round). Your spell resistance does not apply to your own eldritch blast.
At 10th level, your knowledge of gramaric principles teaches you how to embed your soulmelds more completely in reality. Your soulmelds become (Ex) abilities, and no longer can be dispelled, nor can they be suppressed in an antimagic field.

Thesis Animae (Ex): At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, you discover a secret of incarnum-gramarie, gaining the ability to bind principles you have prepared from one of the gramaric disciplines to one of your chakras. Principles bound this way count against your daily number of chakra binds, and must be bound when you shape your soulmelds each day, as normal; however, you are not limited by which tier of chakras you can bind soulmelds to. These abilities do not count as being able to bind soulmelds to a particular chakra. If the particular principle (or material it affected) is destroyed for any reason, you lose the benefit of the ability until you can bind a new principle to your chakra. Effects which increase the essentia capacity of your feats or soulmelds have no effect on this ability.
Circuitous Crown: If you bind a HEUR circuit to your Crown chakra, you can make logical decisions in the circuit as a swift action instead of a standard action.
Climatic Heart: While a GEOC pole is bound to your Heart chakra, the geoccult field is centered on your body instead of the pole itself, and moves where you move.
Convergent Soul: You can bind a principle from any discipline to your Soul chakra. Whenever a principle is so bound, you can prepare that principle again in 75% of the normal time.
Enlightened Brow: An IMCH principle bound to your Brow chakra grant you enhanced awareness within any sense output types associated with the principle. An Auditory output grants you a +5 bonus on Listen checks; a Gustatory output allows you to taste light and sound, as per the synesthete (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/synesthete.htm) power; a Mental output grants you the benefit of the Mindsight feat; an Olfactory output grants you the Scent special ability; a Tactile output grants you the benefit of the touchsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) power; a Vibratory output grants you tremorsense to a radius of 30 feet; and a Visual output grants you a +5 bonus to Spot checks. Thermal and Vestibular outputs do not grant you extra awareness.
Fortified Shoulders: By binding an ALCH principle to your Shoulders chakra, you gain damage reduction 15, which is bypassed by a type determined by which planetary metal it involves, as shown on the table below. This damage reduction does not stack with other sources of DR.
{table=head]Metal|DR Bypassed By
Copper|Slashing
Gold|Cold Iron
Lead|Silver
Mercury|Piercing
Iron|Adamantine
Silver|Magic
Tin|Bludgeoning[/table]
Locomotive Feet: When you bind an ELDK engine to your Feet chakra, you gain an enhancement bonus to all your movement modes equal to the Push of the engine divided by 20 (rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5 feet).
Metamorphic Throat: If you bind an ARCD output transformer to your throat chakra, you can convert essentia to ebbs of output via that transformer. As part of redistributing essentia, you can allocate essentia to the bound transformer just like any other essentia receptacle (subject to the normal limitations on how much essentia you can invest in any given receptacle). Each point of essentia you invest in the transformer generates one ebb; at the end of the round, the essentia returns to your pool and can be invested as normal.
Polychromatic Waist: Binding a KALD filter to your Waist chakra allows you and your belongings to pass unhindered through filters of that color, no matter what that color of filter would normally block.
Transdimensional Arms: While a YGGD semi-space is bound to your Arms chakra, you can reach into that semi-space from anywhere by spending a standard action, no matter where the normal access point is and even if the semi-space is closed. However, you can only use this ability to access that semi-space, even if it is connected to other semi-spaces or demiplanes.
Xenotic Hands: You can bind a BIOY chassis to your Hands chakra and invest essentia into it (just like a normal essentia receptacle, subject to the normal limitations on how much essentia you can invest in any given receptacle). If you do so, you gain the benefit of one graft that the chassis has (chosen when you invest essentia), of a level up to the amount of essentia invested in the chassis. Once the amount of essentia invested is chosen, it cannot be altered and remains invested for 24 hours.

[Amechra]

Out of curiosity, how does imbuing an object with Mercury even work?

Does that mean that you could melt a sword, and have it still behave as a sword?

Does it mean you could take, say, an Immovable Rod, and have it stay in one place when molten?

[Omnicrat]

I don't seem to be able to get an account on the minmax board for some reason, so I'll reiterate an idea I had that I do not believe Kellus ever weighed in on (I originally planed to post it in minmax); A graft taken from a circuited chassis which allows a creature to operate as an EI for the purpose of controlling any circuit you enter not already controlled by an EI.

Another graft idea I just had has to do with a race I created and am still working on stuff for, the Fossen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263730). Bassically, its a graft that grants you access to the Fossen hivemind and the bonuses that come with it.

Again, this would have all been in the Upcomeing material thread, but I can't post there.

[sirpercival]

I don't seem to be able to get an account on the minmax board for some reason, so I'll reiterate an idea I had that I do not believe Kellus ever weighed in on (I originally planed to post it in minmax); A graft taken from a circuited chassis which allows a creature to operate as an EI for the purpose of controlling any circuit you enter not already controlled by an EI.

Another graft idea I just had has to do with a race I created and am still working on stuff for, the Fossen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263730). Bassically, its a graft that grants you access to the Fossen hivemind and the bonuses that come with it.

Again, this would have all been in the Upcomeing material thread, but I can't post there.

Did you jump through the hoops (posting in the threads you're supposed to post in)? They've had major spambot problems, and those keep the bots away.

[Kellus]

Out of curiosity, how does imbuing an object with Mercury even work?

Does that mean that you could melt a sword, and have it still behave as a sword?

Does it mean you could take, say, an Immovable Rod, and have it stay in one place when molten?

Weirdly enough, yes. A sword crafted with energy from a mercury transformer really does still work as a sword if it's melted down, and you could basically make immovable liquid if you're at super-high temperatures (which when I think about it is much more useful than an immovable rod!).

[Omnicrat]

Did you jump through the hoops (posting in the threads you're supposed to post in)? They've had major spambot problems, and those keep the bots away.

I don't get activation emails. Am I supposed to post somewhere before activating my account somehow?

addendum: Kellus, could you please spoiler that opening picture? It throws off the formatting for the whole page.

[sirpercival]

I don't get activation emails. Am I supposed to post somewhere before activating my account somehow?

addendum: Kellus, could you please spoiler that opening picture? It throws off the formatting for the whole page.

PM sent. We'll get you sorted out.

[QuidEst]

Weirdly enough, yes. A sword crafted with energy from a mercury transformer really does still work as a sword if it's melted down, and you could basically make immovable liquid if you're at super-high temperatures (which when I think about it is much more useful than an immovable rod!).

My thoughts on sword-in-a-can and immovable liquid:
Liquid sword is sharp all over. Handling it is like handling a sword. You can do it gently without injury, but if you poured a can of molten sword over somebody from high up, they would get burned and cut.

A molten immovable rod is still an immovable rod because the liquid won't move from where it is. However, if you make the strength check to move it, you are instead moving parts of the liquid, allowing you to reshape it. So you could hammer it into whatever shape you wanted!

Also, I love the Arcanitect! It gives lots of cool options and works well with regular crafting. :smallbiggrin: (And it helps mitigate the dumb XP cost.)

[Necroticplague]

It seems rather odd that the special ability of mercury is to allow something to function as a liquid, yet it explicitely itself doesn't have this power. Which, interestingly enough, means you pretty much need preternatural fluids and alch101 if you want to work with mercuryIns,because you want to move a mercuryIn from a hot place to a cold place, so you'll need to raise its melting point by about 300 points (-273->20) for it to be of any use at all. Of course, now I have the idea of using mercury out to provide power for making grafts, which then continue working when melted (like a puddle of...stuff that seems to randomly shoot eye beams out of it at the command of some random person [the guy its technically grafted to]).

[Amechra]

You think too small!

Who was it who wanted liquid creatures?

You can technically wrangle that now...

[Kellus]

addendum: Kellus, could you please spoiler that opening picture? It throws off the formatting for the whole page.

Sorry, which picture?

[ShadowFireLance]

The Walking Tank thing, I just Hide Sidebar...Though, It does mess my screen up as well.

[Lateral]

so you'll need to raise its melting point by about 300 points (-273->20) for it to be of any use at all

...Mercury's melting point is -39 C. Not -273.

[sreservoir]

–273 °C would be close to zero.

[Omnicrat]

Sorry, which picture?

The Alchemitry one. Its really big.

[Kellus]

The Alchemitry one. Its really big.

Already done, I realized that was the most likely one to be causing problems. Why didn't anyone say something earlier?! I keep my browser zoomed out pretty far, I'm sorry for inconveniencing anyone trying to read it!

[Amechra]

–273 °C would be close to zero.

More accurately, that's the freezing point for the universe.

[Morcleon]

More accurately, that's the freezing point for the universe.

Nah, absolute zero's more like -273.15. That's close, but not quite there. :smalltongue:

[Amechra]

Shhh...

Don't let them know the secret...

[Kellus]

Nah, absolute zero's more like -273.15. That's close, but not quite there. :smalltongue:

Well, I'm pretty sure that mercury would indeed be frozen at that point.

ANYWAY, guess what! Amechra wrote some excellent material on platinum poles, and because of that we now get to build cities with geoccultism! Go check it out!

[Omnicrat]

Already done, I realized that was the most likely one to be causing problems. Why didn't anyone say something earlier?! I keep my browser zoomed out pretty far, I'm sorry for inconveniencing anyone trying to read it!

Now that you mention it, that fey imacination picture is pretty big too...

[Necroticplague]

You think too small!

Who was it who wanted liquid creatures?

You can technically wrangle that now...
That was me. Still doesn't actually work. The essence of arcana only applies to magic items made, while my things are made entirely via grammary. They're "made" (technically grown, since they're made by applying a while lot of grammaric mods to brassbrush) by a geomantic pole, fresh every day (or if I'm willing to wait and don't have a high-output ebb generator, then I plant them outside, and wait a week instead). So sadly, it's not working. And if it did, that would add another requires specialist (requires one BIOY for instinct, one ALCH for phlogistan, one GEOY for brassbrush, this would make it require one ARCD).

Although really, all that was me getting carried away. The initial point is how Brassbrush allows you to simply GROW things that think. You could just as easily make the things that popup sentient, complete with soul.The moral rammification of doing so are up to you, though (I've hear devils will give decent trades in either items or semi-specified favors).

Also, do biostructures feel pain? What if it's given sentience? Talking about trading in their souls makes me think of similar material:liquid pain.

...Mercury's melting point is -39 C. Not -273.


–273 °C would be close to zero.
Whoops, my bad, that brings it down to a much more sane dc 59 to be useful. Of course, given the way mercuryIn works, higher is always better. If you ever have a spare hour, just see if you can't raise by at least 10 for 1 more ebb. Of course, then you run into the problem up setting up the bubble to the higher temperature.

[davethebrave]

Well, I'm pretty sure that mercury would indeed be frozen at that point.

ANYWAY, guess what! Amechra wrote some excellent material on platinum poles, and because of that we now get to build cities with geoccultism! Go check it out!

I love it, it's stellar work on Amechra's part! :smallbiggrin:

[radmelon]

And in reply to the biostructures and pain thing, can they pray? Because, with sufficient biollurgy use, you could contruct a city of meat and use it to fuel a huge platinum input to contruct some sort of huge doomsday device. Not the most efficient way, but possibly one of the most awesome.

[Kellus]

And in reply to the biostructures and pain thing, can they pray? Because, with sufficient biollurgy use, you could contruct a city of meat and use it to fuel a huge platinum input to contruct some sort of huge doomsday device. Not the most efficient way, but possibly one of the most awesome.

Biostructure is a mindless semi-organic semi-metallic structural material. It has mental ability scores of — and thus is unable to take any mental actions. More specifically, without a Charisma score it is unable to discern what is "it" and what is "everything else", and is thus unable to understand the nature of pain as it applies to its own body. Similarly, lacking the Intelligence to understand the nature of faith and the Wisdom to hold a belief, it cannot pray.

It's masonry that breathes.

[Draconas1]

Hi, total noob here and gained an account mainly for this thread, so apologies in advance if this is stupid.

Would an Alchemtry density increase apply to a geoccult poles' metal consumption?
How do you control Biollurgical chassi with only BIOY 101 & BIOY 228? Handle Animal, Ride, or you just plain can't?
What level would a Biollurgical chassis graft that grows soft, marrowless bones out of it’s back for fuel for a ballistic engine be?
Would it be possible for there to be a magic item or artifact(if magic item probably requires fabricate and/or wish and/or true creation to build) that allows one to halve spectroconstruction work/hours in order to use it for Grammarie?
What is the power scaling each size of creatures give for crystal inputs?(Maybe each size double previous just like carrying capacity modifier?) And since biostructure is stated to have raspy, loud breathing would it generate more?(I basically just want to make several trees into a big hunk of biostructure and use it to power a geoccult pole)
Edit: Also, you never added the multiple pieces of whisperreeds allowing group chat thing.

[radmelon]

Biostructure is a mindless semi-organic semi-metallic structural material. It has mental ability scores of — and thus is unable to take any mental actions. More specifically, without a Charisma score it is unable to discern what is "it" and what is "everything else", and is thus unable to understand the nature of pain as it applies to its own body. Similarly, lacking the Intelligence to understand the nature of faith and the Wisdom to hold a belief, it cannot pray.

It's masonry that breathes.

Yes, but using further biollurgy to make it a chassis can remove said restraints. You'd have to find a way to feed it all, but that can be overcome. Also, the platinum geoccultism stuff is the best thing I have read today. Possibly all week. I don't have anything else to say on the matter, I am at a loss for words.

[Kellus]

Hi, total noob here and gained an account mainly for this thread, so apologies in advance if this is stupid.

No problem, let me see if I can answer them for you! :smallsmile:


Would an Alchemtry density increase apply to a geoccult poles' metal consumption?

Yes! A geoccult pole's consumption is based on weight, and thus if you use Alchemetry to make metal heavier the volume will be consumed more slowly!


How do you control Biollurgical chassi with only BIOY 101 & BIOY 228? Handle Animal, Ride, or you just plain can't?

After BIOY 228 is done with it, a biollurgical chassis is classified as an Aberration. You can try to Ride an aberration, although you would probably take a -5 penalty to Ride checks for having an unsuitable mount, as described here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/ride.htm). Handle Animal, appropriately enough, applies only to Animals normally, but you can also attempt to use it on creatures with Int 1 or 2 which are not Animals, but the DC of all checks increases by 5, as described at the bottom of the page here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm). So... Yeah! Go crazy taming your biollurgical monstrosities!


What level would a Biollurgical chassis graft that grows soft, marrowless bones out of it’s back for fuel for a ballistic engine be?

Oo, awesome idea! I really need to come out with a suite of grafts related to gramaric purposes. I'll add this idea to it, but off the top of my head that seems like a reasonable 2nd level graft!


Would it be possible for there to be a magic item or artifact(if magic item probably requires fabricate and/or wish and/or true creation to build) that allows one to halve spectroconstruction work/hours in order to use it for Grammarie?

Probably not unfortunately. Time is the one thing that really gives gramarists trouble, and it's one of their primary resources. The main axiom is that a gramarist can do just about anything, with enough time and supplies. There are very, very few things in the system which provide more time to the characters; if it's an artifact specific to your campaign it might be reasonable, but certainly not as a manufacturable wondrous item.


What is the power scaling each size of creatures give for crystal inputs?(Maybe each size double previous just like carrying capacity modifier?)

This should follow the basic guidelines set out in the description of ghost sound (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ghostSound.htm)

There aren't many data points, but here's what we can piece together:

{table=head]Source|Number of Effective Humans
A human running and shouting|1
A horde of rats|8
A roaring lion|16
A roaring dire tiger|20[/table]

The record breaking scream of a human is 128 decibels, although that seems a little extreme; most humans can't scream that loud. More relevantly, a lion's roar is roughly 114 decibels. That would place an average human's shout at 102 decibels, which sounds about right. Getting back to your original question, what you need to decide is how many times a given creature is louder than humans, or decide their loudness in decibels and convert. For example, a jet engine is only Large-sized, but it's 150 dB. This is about the noise from 64,000 humans shouting. As you can see, it's all relative!


And since biostructure is stated to have raspy, loud breathing would it generate more?(I basically just want to make several trees into a big hunk of biostructure and use it to power a geoccult pole)

Unfortunately, I'd probably only rule that a 5ft. cube of it only produces the noise of one human. Remember, the baseline is a human shouting, not breathing heavily! :smallwink:

Awesome questions! If you have any others, I'd be happy to try to answer them!

[Kellus]

Yes, but using further biollurgy to make it a chassis can remove said restraints. You'd have to find a way to feed it all, but that can be overcome. Also, the platinum geoccultism stuff is the best thing I have read today. Possibly all week. I don't have anything else to say on the matter, I am at a loss for words.

Yes, absolutely true! If you can make an intelligent biollurgical chassis, of course it can feel pain and pray. A basic animal level intelligence and charisma is certainly sufficient to feel pain, but I think we can all agree you need to be truly sentient to be able to hold a religious faith.


Edit: Also, you never added the multiple pieces of whisperreeds allowing group chat thing.

I'm sorry, let me fix that!

EDIT: There we go!


Whisperreeds: Whisperreeds are just like normal cat-tail reeds, except that they transmit sound across huge distances. When two whisperreeds are cut from the same stalk (after it grows back the following day, obviously) any sound or vibration which affects one of them will instantaneously affect the other, as well. This allows the transmission of area effects that deal only sonic damage; if one reed is inside of the area, the effect spreads out from the second reed as if it were the originator of the effect. Sonic damage can only be channeled once like this before it degrades to harmlessness. This is a form of quantum entangling, and thus is not limited by the speed of light. Multiple reeds cut work in the same way, transmitting an equal amount of sound from all of them. However, the total sound level is distributed between all of the extra receptors, dividing it up accordingly. For example, one reed being used to talk to three others would have its transmitted sound level reduced to one third of its original intensity. Whisperreed costs 200 lb per 5ft. patch, and otherwise works like normal cat-tail reeds.

[Silva Stormrage]

Hey, two comments, one where can I find the cost of planetary metals in cubic foot? I can't seem to find the price of some of them by cubic foot or weight. I can find some here. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm

You might want to add their cost next to their weight on the alchemestry table.

Also I think that the apogineer's 2nd level precipitous ability is a bit too strong. It effectively lets them make a daze attempt with every attack. Personally I would try to not use maneuvers and just attempt to daze everything to death. I think it should be limited to 1/round.

Also when do the prestige classes gain magistral principles? Right now it seems that the apogineer gains doctorate principles without getting Magisterial principles

[Draconas1]

Probably not unfortunately. Time is the one thing that really gives gramarists trouble, and it's one of their primary resources. The main axiom is that a gramarist can do just about anything, with enough time and supplies. There are very, very few things in the system which provide more time to the characters; if it's an artifact specific to your campaign it might be reasonable, but certainly not as a manufacturable wondrous item.

Yeah, I figured even if it was a magic item it was not only going to be incredibly high level and hard to make(quite possibly epic), but also so precious to grammarists that it would be easier to just have someone on your party make one.
Also, I have quite a few more, cause I haven't exactly been writing these things down and have been having these ideas for a while.
Would the joint biollurgic and geoccultic 400 principle allow you to create and control terrain-appropriate creatures?
Are deadsnow zombies restricted to their geoccult biome of origin or can you just only command them from it's pole?
A zeitgeist, since it is an exotic intelligence limited to the geoccult pole, can make logical decision for the pole, right? Also, it's mindsight doesn't have a range of it's biome.
If you use alchemetry to alter biostructure's durability, you're basically altering it's con score by your diplomacy result right?(since it raises or lowers the hit points per inch by half your con score)
While I figure nothing(except skeletons) would be able to move if they were entirely converted to biostructure, you can just convert the skin of whatever it is into articulated plates right?(I plan on doing that to the deadsnow zombie workforce of my city so they look somewhat better and are tougher, even if it will probably only be just an inch counting subcutaneous tissues)
Do deadsnow zombies just have to have been from dead bodies that were left in deadsnow at the stroke of midnight, did they also have to die in deadsnow, or did this have to have been the first midnight since they died?
Can you make a geoccult pole any shape?(I plan on having my character make them into chairs so he can just sit down in them while he messes with them)
Can bizarchitecture be put over the geoccult pole?(I plan on making it so only my character and those he allows can access it)
Since ancient oaks are sentient, can they control Arcanodynamic outputs and Heuristical Circuit control points attached to them?(hooray turrets!)
If you lower the topographical level under, say, an acid bog, does it get deeper?(possibly enough for full submersion:smallwink:)

[Kellus]

Hey, two comments, one where can I find the cost of planetary metals in cubic foot? I can't seem to find the price of some of them by cubic foot or weight. I can find some here. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm

You might want to add their cost next to their weight on the alchemestry table.

This is a perennial suggestion, but the problem that I keep running into, unfortunately, is that it's too campaign-specific. Some metals are common in one setting and not in another. Iron is everywhere in core, but it's still not clear exactly what it's worth; a wall of iron spell can produce huge amounts of metal, which ALCH can transform into other metals. If you need a price, go based on that; otherwise, it's an issue to work out in-game and in-setting.


Also I think that the apogineer's 2nd level precipitous ability is a bit too strong. It effectively lets them make a daze attempt with every attack. Personally I would try to not use maneuvers and just attempt to daze everything to death. I think it should be limited to 1/round.

I'm sorry! That was very poorly worded and didn't really do what I intended it to do! Here's the revised version from my notes:


A Thousand Drops of Rain (Precipitous): When you strike a target they are battered from every direction by the uncatchable rain. Until your next turn, you count as if you were flanking the target for the benefit of your allies, no matter what direction their attack comes from. If a successful flanking attack from an ally strikes the target later in the same round, the enemy is dazed (Will negates). The flanking bonus you grant to your allies increases from +2 to the magnitude of your alignment with Spring.

It is strong, since you can effectively dazelock them, but remember that as soon as you shift either of your axes at all, you fall out of the styling. Also key to remember is that this is at... 9th level? 5th level spells just came online for spellcasters, including such gems as baleful polymorph, cloudkill, wall of force, and so on. Dazing is literally what spellcasters are throwing out as a 0th-level spell!


Also when do the prestige classes gain magistral principles? Right now it seems that the apogineer gains doctorate principles without getting Magisterial principles

Since you literally need two principles from the appropriate discipline to get into one of the classes, and there's only one Baccalaureate-level principle in each discipline, it's not a huge deal. :smalltongue:

[Qwertystop]

Question regarding Geoccultism 101:

It says it subsumes existing natural features and works around artificial ones and creatures. Does this mean it creates a random assortment of the basic features one would expect to find in the new biome, as a one-time (non-replenishing) thing? Or does it just get rid of all the existing stuff and leave the area as an empty expanse of <appropriate terrain type>?

[Kellus]

Would the joint biollurgic and geoccultic 400 principle allow you to create and control terrain-appropriate creatures?

I'm not sure, I haven't thought too much about that combination yet! But it certainly seems like a reasonable idea.


Are deadsnow zombies restricted to their geoccult biome of origin or can you just only command them from it's pole?

You can control them using the pole as long as they're in the biome, but they're still zombies outside of it.


A zeitgeist, since it is an exotic intelligence limited to the geoccult pole, can make logical decision for the pole, right? Also, it's mindsight doesn't have a range of it's biome.

It can see everything that's happening in the biome (more specifically, it can see all of the information about the people in it). It can make logical decisions on behalf of the pole, but unless it's hooked up to a broader circuit it can't extend its control beyond that scope.


If you use alchemetry to alter biostructure's durability, you're basically altering it's con score by your diplomacy result right?(since it raises or lowers the hit points per inch by half your con score)

Effectively, yes, that's one way you could look at it, but that's only applicable while the biostructure is in its immobile form (more object-like than creature-like, when it still has hit points per inch of thickness).


While I figure nothing(except skeletons) would be able to move if they were entirely converted to biostructure, you can just convert the skin of whatever it is into articulated plates right?(I plan on doing that to the deadsnow zombie workforce of my city so they look somewhat better and are tougher, even if it will probably only be just an inch counting subcutaneous tissues)

Killer idea! That's very cool!


Do deadsnow zombies just have to have been from dead bodies that were left in deadsnow at the stroke of midnight, did they also have to die in deadsnow, or did this have to have been the first midnight since they died?

No, they just have to be in the snow at midnight, the corpse can come from anywhere.


Can you make a geoccult pole any shape?(I plan on having my character make them into chairs so he can just sit down in them while he messes with them)

Yes, as long as it follows the requirements it can look like whatever you like!


Can bizarchitecture be put over the geoccult pole?(I plan on making it so only my character and those he allows can access it)

Sure, why not?


Since ancient oaks are sentient, can they control Arcanodynamic outputs and Heuristical Circuit control points attached to them?(hooray turrets!)

No, they're not EI's, and they don't have Intelligence scores, all they can do is make Knowledge checks on your behalf.


If you lower the topographical level under, say, an acid bog, does it get deeper?(possibly enough for full submersion:smallwink:)

I would allow this, although another way of looking at it is that the acid bog sinks as well, to only be a few feet off the ground at that point. But I think it's a clever enough idea that it should be allowed!


It says it subsumes existing natural features and works around artificial ones and creatures. Does this mean it creates a random assortment of the basic features one would expect to find in the new biome, as a one-time (non-replenishing) thing? Or does it just get rid of all the existing stuff and leave the area as an empty expanse of <appropriate terrain type>?

The basic principle suppresses all of the normal terrain features around it, and puts out a blank canvas of the baseline terrain. They're still there though, and if/when the pole collapses, all the old terrain comes back!

[Draconas1]

It can see everything that's happening in the biome (more specifically, it can see all of the information about the people in it). It can make logical decisions on behalf of the pole, but unless it's hooked up to a broader circuit it can't extend its control beyond that scope.

Actually, I meant in the info on Geoccultism it doesn't say anything about it's mindsight range, just the extra feature added to it.(but that is interesting that it can be hooked up to circuits and control them[and also not there(sorry if I seem like I'm pestering you)])



No, they're not EI's, and they don't have Intelligence scores, all they can do is make Knowledge checks on your behalf.

Ah, I was wondering since the info on them also said they were sentient trees.

Also, there isn't an iron Arcanodynamic input and output. Is there supposed to be, and if so what should it do, absorb or grant hardness/damage resistance, weight, or something else?
Also, for orichalcum how come beads, which are considerably smaller than one 100th of one cubic foot(there are 1,728 cubic inches in a foot, and beads are usually smaller than a cubic inch), can store a full ebb? Is it that any amount under the amount necessary to store two ebbs can store one ebb and a bead is a good combination of affordability, keepability, and hideability?

[Necroticplague]

I like the platinum stuff, and have a few uses in my mind for it, especially for bizzarchitecture
1.pipes+fountains-pipe in water from a healing spring, then charge minor fee for fountain use.
2.bizzarchitecture:because hiding any kind of questionably moral affair is much easier when with the right word the entire building simply disappears
3.bizzarchitecture:because things that normally take up space don't have to anymore
4.bizzarchitecture:Because having having the ability to have your entire city dissappear and be replaced with a deadly swamp is just too nice at times

Although, I do have a question about bizzarcetecture, similar to the one i raised about whispereeds: Can you stack more than 1, so you can have, say a desert/ocean producing ebbs from the iceIns powering perpetual rain on a flashsand with some to spare, a city/forest (the normal town, forest is for trees to ease foot traffic), and a swamp/tundra, a hellish mix of terrain that nobody would want to go in [terrains are different because zone inside bizzarchitecture has own poles], all existing in parallel via bizzarchitecture? Can things "exit" one of the "sets" and "enter" another if it exits the area of the set at some point? Like say, (continuing using above example), we have a power ribbon extend from the city geopole, than connect to the other two and the iceIns so that the ebbs can be spent by all three, as long as it exits the zone than comes back into it (meaning it would probably have to be a fairly large ribbon). Sorry that I ask so many questions, its just in my nature t explore possibilities.

[sirpercival]

Any comments on Ayuscientist? I'm also currently working on the Transcholar, which is a HEUR/IMCH hybrid.

[Kellus]

Actually, I meant in the info on Geoccultism it doesn't say anything about it's mindsight range, just the extra feature added to it.(but that is interesting that it can be hooked up to circuits and control them[and also not there(sorry if I seem like I'm pestering you)])

EDIT: Whoops, missed this one; an EI by definition has Mindsight, and the geoccult description of a zeitgeist gives the extent of its sensing.


Ah, I was wondering since the info on them also said they were sentient trees.

Well, the intent was that they would basically be sensory outposts and encyclopedias about the land they were built on. I believe I misconveyed it when I said they were sentient; they have no real will other than being a spirit of intellect related to their environment. I'll clarify the text about what they can and cannot do; they're certainly not EI's.

EDIT AGAIN: Okay, this should hopefully be clearer?


Ancient Oaks: Ancient oaks are semi-intelligent trees which can read the memory of the ground beneath them. You can communicate with them through the pole telepathically, and they can answer any question about the land or the history of it back several hundred years (treat it as having a +20 modifier for all Knowledge checks related to its field of expertise). An ancient oak is also a sentinel (it has the same senses as a treant) and alerts the pole when anything unusual happens in the geoccult zone. Ancient oaks are otherwise not intelligent; they serve their puspose, but nothing more. They are merely spirits of history that have a mandate to protect their forest. An ancient oak costs 500 lb, and is otherwise the same as a massive tree. It needs to grow for a month before it can communicate with the pole.


Also, there isn't an iron Arcanodynamic input and output. Is there supposed to be

Nope!


Also, for orichalcum how come beads, which are considerably smaller than one 100th of one cubic foot(there are 1,728 cubic inches in a foot, and beads are usually smaller than a cubic inch), can store a full ebb? Is it that any amount under the amount necessary to store two ebbs can store one ebb and a bead is a good combination of affordability, keepability, and hideability?

We had this discussion once before; what we decided was that a 'bead' of orichalcum is literally one cubic foot of it, divided into 100 pieces, and then shaped into spheres. Each bead has a radius of 4.07 cm, so they're about the size of baseballs.

[Kellus]

I like the platinum stuff, and have a few uses in my mind for it, especially for bizzarchitecture
1.pipes+fountains-pipe in water from a healing spring, then charge minor fee for fountain use.
2.bizzarchitecture:because hiding any kind of questionably moral affair is much easier when with the right word the entire building simply disappears
3.bizzarchitecture:because things that normally take up space don't have to anymore
4.bizzarchitecture:Because having having the ability to have your entire city dissappear and be replaced with a deadly swamp is just too nice at times

Although, I do have a question about bizzarcetecture, similar to the one i raised about whispereeds: Can you stack more than 1, so you can have, say a desert/ocean producing ebbs from the iceIns powering perpetual rain on a flashsand with some to spare, a city/forest (the normal town, forest is for trees to ease foot traffic), and a swamp/tundra, a hellish mix of terrain that nobody would want to go in [terrains are different because zone inside bizzarchitecture has own poles], all existing in parallel via bizzarchitecture? Can things "exit" one of the "sets" and "enter" another if it exits the area of the set at some point? Like say, (continuing using above example), we have a power ribbon extend from the city geopole, than connect to the other two and the iceIns so that the ebbs can be spent by all three, as long as it exits the zone than comes back into it (meaning it would probably have to be a fairly large ribbon). Sorry that I ask so many questions, its just in my nature t explore possibilities.

Very very cool ideas. You can only have two sets of bizarchitecure on the same area, but you could have another totally different one right beside it. That's a very cool idea about different poles inside of the bizarchitectural zone, but one caveat: recall that bizarchitecure itself is a platinum feature, so if you want it to still be there in a different terrain, you would need to place it using the rules for mixing features into different biomes.

So you can only have two potential terrain sets on a single location, but stuff that extends out of one of them is indeed allowed to enter into another set of bizarchitecture beside it!

[ShadowFireLance]

I have a request...For Peoples..
Make a PrC combining Biollurgy and Arcanodynamics.

[Draconas1]

EDIT: Whoops, missed this one; an EI by definition has Mindsight, and the geoccult description of a zeitgeist gives the extent of its sensing.


The description only gives the range for it's telepathy, see.

Zeitgeists: A zeitgeist is a spirit that instinctively derives demographic information from a biome. More simply, a zeitgeist is an exotic intelligence whose heuristical bubble includes only the pole of the biome, but whose telepathy covers the entirety of the biome zone. In addition, its Mindsight allows it to automatically know the age, race, gender, and legal and marital status of every creature that it can sense. If a zeitgeist is present in the pole, a bizarchitectural set's condition in order to be accessed can make use any information which the zeitgeist is able to automatically derive. A zeitgeist cannot be fooled with conventional methods, but a misdirection effect causes the zeitgeist to read the demographic information of the misdirected proxy instead. A zeitgeist costs only 100 lb to create, but multiplies the rate at which the pole consumes itself every day by 10.


Well, the intent was that they would basically be sensory outposts and encyclopedias about the land they were built on. I believe I misconveyed it when I said they were sentient; they have no real will other than being a spirit of intellect related to their environment. I'll clarify the text about what they can and cannot do; they're certainly not EI's.

EDIT AGAIN: Okay, this should hopefully be clearer?
Yes, thanks


Nope!
Ah, was just wondering, since all the other planetary metals, as well as wood, ice, and crystal were represented


We had this discussion once before; what we decided was that a 'bead' of orichalcum is literally one cubic foot of it, divided into 100 pieces, and then shaped into spheres. Each bead has a radius of 4.07 cm, so they're about the size of baseballs.
Oops, sorry.:smallredface:

Since you said you hadn't thought of the geoccult and biollurgy 400 principle, if you want, I have some ideas for others, and I don't mind if you don't use them.
Arcanodynamics and Geoccultism allowing you to link inputs or outputs to a pole, letting their input sphere or output origination point come from anywhere in the biome(so gramarists can use scry-and-die too, as well as cause dramatic chills)
Alchemetry and Arcanodynamics either letting the outputs ignore a specific quality that you can alter with Alchemetry, programmed in up to a specific amount instead of altering that quality in the input or output itself(basically, for instance you can make an output ignore a certain amount of hardness instead of adding that amount to it[although you could probably have added it earlier or add it afterward]), the other possibility would be letting the outputs or inputs assimilate the material they are made of and cannibalize themselves for ebbs, similar to a Geoccult pole.
Biollurgy and Arcanodynamics letting a chassis that has been turned into an input convert the ebbs it creates into health.(since you can already make chassi into regular output and inputs)
Heuristicism and Yggdratecture making it so that when you prepare a circuit, you prepare it up to a 10 feet radius instead of 5, possibly with similar doubling of net radius and output range for Arcanodynamics and Yggdratecture(not too sure about this one)
Yggdratecture and Biollurgy allowing you to either raise some of the ability scores of your chassi or add more grafts due to the chassi the principle is prepared on becoming tesseracts and therefore having more space to fit muscles, organs, or brainmeats(it doen't in and of itself add more grafts, it just lets you, and it will take a bit of time for the new space to fill with flesh if you are raising it's stats[probably wouldn't work at all without fast healing]).
Heuristicism and Arcanodynamics either making it so you can apply triggers to your inputs and outputs for logical decisions and aiming even while not in a circuit, or allowing you to keep an input and output linked despite the distance.

[Silva Stormrage]

Question for the Dreammason prestige class.

It says that EI's can gain XP for draining creatures. I think that should be removed completely its far to easy to gain infinite xp with this item. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a.

Also what does it mean that the EI can gain XP? It doesn't have HD... can it gain HD by leveling? Can it take wizard levels? How would it cast spells if it can?

[Kellus]

Mindsight (http://dndtools.eu/feats/lords-of-madness--72/mindsight--1960/) by definition has a range equal to that of your telepathy.


Question for the Dreammason prestige class.

It says that EI's can gain XP for draining creatures. I think that should be removed completely its far to easy to gain infinite xp with this item. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a.

As usual, I can't possibly plan out every dumb thing that wizards comes out with. An item that transfers XP is possibly the dumbest thing I've heard of in a while– who possibly thought that would be a good idea? Ever?


Also what does it mean that the EI can gain XP? It doesn't have HD... can it gain HD by leveling? Can it take wizard levels? How would it cast spells if it can?

Great question! An EI can take purely mental actions, since it doesn't have a body. It can still level up, it just doesn't get any benefit from a lot of the normal things you get from levels, like hit points, Fort and Ref saves, and a lot of class features. But if it were to take, for example, wizard levels and the Still Spell and Silent Spell feats, it could certainly cast spells as surely as a bound and gagged wizard. It would get effective Hit Dice, Hit Dice that don't actually give it hit points since it doesn't have a body, but which still determine its level of achievement in a class.

EDIT: Those are some pretty clever ideas for 400-level principles! I'm still in the conceptual phase for a lot of them, but you should see a few fairly soon. Thanks! :smallsmile:

[Draken]

Ok, quick question.

How does gramarie act if you try to feed it temporary materials? Such as feeding metals created with Major Creation to a geoccult pole?

[Silva Stormrage]

Mindsight (http://dndtools.eu/feats/lords-of-madness--72/mindsight--1960/) by definition has a range equal to that of your telepathy.



As usual, I can't possibly plan out every dumb thing that wizards comes out with. An item that transfers XP is possibly the dumbest thing I've heard of in a while– who possibly thought that would be a good idea? Ever?



Great question! An EI can take purely mental actions, since it doesn't have a body. It can still level up, it just doesn't get any benefit from a lot of the normal things you get from levels, like hit points, Fort and Ref saves, and a lot of class features. But if it were to take, for example, wizard levels and the Still Spell and Silent Spell feats, it could certainly cast spells as surely as a bound and gagged wizard. It would get effective Hit Dice, Hit Dice that don't actually give it hit points since it doesn't have a body, but which still determine its level of achievement in a class.

Fair point on the stupidity of it. I agree on that aspect. And thanks for the clarification on the EI's gaining levels.

[Kellus]

Ok, quick question.

How does gramarie act if you try to feed it temporary materials? Such as feeding metals created with Major Creation to a geoccult pole?

Everything has to go somewhere. In the case of major creation, that means that when the duration expires, the metal disappears. If it's been accumulated into a geoccult pole at this point, the metal would be extracted from the volume of the pole. It could be quite useful in buying you time to find more metal, or you could even set up a staggered payment system consisting of repeated castings before the expiry, since major creation has an awesome duration! But when the time limit expires, the appropriate amount of metal would disappear from the pole.


Fair point on the stupidity of it. I agree on that aspect. And thanks for the clarification on the EI's gaining levels.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention, though! I didn't even realize that was a thing– I'll put a note in the EI description about not being able to transfer the XP to anybody else, just in case! :smallwink:

[Qwertystop]

Everything has to go somewhere. In the case of major creation, that means that when the duration expires, the metal disappears. If it's been accumulated into a geoccult pole at this point, the metal would be extracted from the volume of the pole. It could be quite useful in buying you time to find more metal, or you could even set up a staggered payment system consisting of repeated castings before the expiry, since major creation has an awesome duration! But when the time limit expires, the appropriate amount of metal would disappear from the pole.


Wait...

How does the efficiency compare for feeding the pole ebbs to fuel it daily or feeding it SilverOut Major Creations of the right metal?

[Kellus]

Wait...

How does the efficiency compare for feeding the pole ebbs to fuel it daily or feeding it SilverOut Major Creations of the right metal?

It's a way better deal to use major creations, but you run into the problem that eventually you won't be able to sustain enough transient metal going in, since every day you have another day of metal payments stack up. You can keep it up for actually a really long time, since major creation is measured in volume and not weight, and metal is really dense. But eventually it'll be too much to keep up, and the pole will collapse when not enough metal is provided. But for short-term poles, if you're willing to go to the effort to set it up, it's an awesome way to get much cheaper terrain!

[Qwertystop]

It's a way better deal to use major creations, but you run into the problem that eventually you won't be able to sustain enough transient metal going in, since every day you have another day of metal payments stack up. You can keep it up for actually a really long time, since major creation is measured in volume and not weight, and metal is really dense. But eventually it'll be too much to keep up, and the pole will collapse when not enough metal is provided. But for short-term poles, if you're willing to go to the effort to set it up, it's an awesome way to get much cheaper terrain!

Wait, why would payments stack up? The metal from Major Creation isn't a feature, so it doesn't have an upkeep cost. Just make enough metal with Major Creation to exactly cover all metal costs until the time it would have disappeared anyway.

[ShadowFireLance]

Hmm, That helps...Well, I wonder...
Their exsists a spell, In KoK, That is called "Major/Ultimate Creation"
No EXP Cost, No nothing, 4th level spell.
It allows you to use created objects As Spell copmentets, and has a permant Duration....Well, 21st level Grameirst, With a 20th level Wizard anyone?
Oh yeah, Say I used the Major Creation, And then made it into a pile of Gold coins...Cheep money anyone?

A actual Question:
is their a way for transformers to have multiple Outs linked by distant IN transformers ?

[Kellus]

Wait, why would payments stack up? The metal from Major Creation isn't a feature, so it doesn't have an upkeep cost. Just make enough metal with Major Creation to exactly cover all metal costs until the time it would have disappeared anyway.

There's a minimum weight of metal the pole needs to sustain, known as the critical limit. Hypothetically, let's say this is 1,000 lb. If I major create an extra 3,000 lb into it, and use it to buy a lot of features, then when the duration of the major creation expires 3,000 lb of metal is subtracted from the pole's weight. If this would take it below the critical limit, the pole would collapse. The only way to sustain it would be to cast another major creation into it, renewing the duration. But a lot of features have upkeep, which would accrue additional costs, until the point where perhaps you need two major creationed metal masses in it at a time, and so on until it's simply unsunstainable.

[Draken]

There's a minimum weight of metal the pole needs to sustain, known as the critical limit. Hypothetically, let's say this is 1,000 lb. If I major create an extra 3,000 lb into it, and use it to buy a lot of features, then when the duration of the major creation expires 3,000 lb of metal is subtracted from the pole's weight. If this would take it below the critical limit, the pole would collapse. The only way to sustain it would be to cast another major creation into it, renewing the duration. But a lot of features have upkeep, which would accrue additional costs, until the point where perhaps you need two major creationed metal masses in it at a time, and so on until it's simply unsunstainable.

Oh. This means that the "cost" to add features to the pole is added to its mass, I had the impression that this "cost" was eaten and vanished, much like the upkeep cost of the pole itself.

[Kellus]

Oh. This means that the "cost" to add features to the pole is added to its mass, I had the impression that this "cost" was eaten and vanished, much like the upkeep cost of the pole itself.

No, that's entirely right; let's say again my critical mass is 1,000, my upkeep every day is 500 for my features, and major creation gives me 3,000 lb. I use major creation on my 1,500 lb pole, raising my mass to 4,500 lb. I buy 2,000 lb of features, putting me at 2,500 lb. My daily upkeep is now 1,000 instead. So the next day, 1,000 lb will be drained. But when the duration of the major creation expires, 3,000 lb will be drained. If I don't refresh the major creation in time, I'll drop to -500 lb, which would collapse the pole. But even if I do place a new major creation into it in time, 1,000 lb will still be drained, putting me at 1,500 lb. Still above the critical mass, but the next day's upkeep will drop me to the point where the pole collapses. So now I need to have two major created masses of metal added to the pole, raising me to 4,500. But when those two expire now, it would drop me to -1,500 lb, which means I need to keep both of them maintained at all times. And every day the upkeep drains more metal, putting me more and more in debt to major creation.

So it's awesome for the short-term, but you're never going to be able to have huge continent-spanning poles or environments lasting for years at a time or anything using it.

[Draconas1]

Mindsight (http://dndtools.eu/feats/lords-of-madness--72/mindsight--1960/) by definition has a range equal to that of your telepathy.

*facepalm* sorry, while I tend to notice things other people don't(or at least mention them when they don't, it's hard to tell the difference)(like the ancient oaks), I also don't notice things most people do.

EDIT: Those are some pretty clever ideas for 400-level principles! I'm still in the conceptual phase for a lot of them, but you should see a few fairly soon. Thanks! :smallsmile:
Welcome!
Edit: Also, you can use ebbs to create a feature and not just for upkeep, right?
Double Edit: Also, the skill prerequisite for geoccultism is Knowledge (geography), but the key skill and the one used for skill DCs is survivals, is that right?

[Draken]

No, that's entirely right; let's say again my critical mass is 1,000, my upkeep every day is 500 for my features, and major creation gives me 3,000 lb. I use major creation on my 1,500 lb pole, raising my mass to 4,500 lb. I buy 2,000 lb of features, putting me at 2,500 lb. My daily upkeep is now 1,000 instead. So the next day, 1,000 lb will be drained. But when the duration of the major creation expires, 3,000 lb will be drained. If I don't refresh the major creation in time, I'll drop to -500 lb, which would collapse the pole. But even if I do place a new major creation into it in time, 1,000 lb will still be drained, putting me at 1,500 lb. Still above the critical mass, but the next day's upkeep will drop me to the point where the pole collapses. So now I need to have two major created masses of metal added to the pole, raising me to 4,500. But when those two expire now, it would drop me to -1,500 lb, which means I need to keep both of them maintained at all times. And every day the upkeep drains more metal, putting me more and more in debt to major creation.

So it's awesome for the short-term, but you're never going to be able to have huge continent-spanning poles or environments lasting for years at a time or anything using it.

Ah, so the problem then is that the mass added more recently will be consumed after the older mass. I see.

[ShadowFireLance]

A actual Question:
is their a way for transformers to have multiple Outs linked by distant IN transformers ?

You missed me Kellus...:smallannoyed:

[Kellus]

You missed me Kellus...:smallannoyed:

I'm sorry! :smalleek:

There are a ton of ways to connect circuits together. Off the top of my head, there are class features in a ton of the prestige classes that do it, but an easy one to implement is the power ribbon terrain feature for a platinum pole. But yeah, there are quite a few ways to join circuits together.


Edit: Also, you can use ebbs to create a feature and not just for upkeep, right?

Yes!

[ShadowFireLance]

I'm sorry! :smalleek:

There are a ton of ways to connect circuits together. Off the top of my head, there are class features in a ton of the prestige classes that do it, but an easy one to implement is the power ribbon terrain feature for a platinum pole. But yeah, there are quite a few ways to join circuits together.



Yes!


Shows that I need to finish reading before posting..Alright, Reading it all tonight, I want no complaints from the eyes about Hurting, Got it?

No worries, It happens to me a lot as well when you got lotsa people talking to you at once...I was trying to be mean though..:smallwink:

[QuidEst]

There's a minimum weight of metal the pole needs to sustain, known as the critical limit. Hypothetically, let's say this is 1,000 lb. If I major create an extra 3,000 lb into it, and use it to buy a lot of features, then when the duration of the major creation expires 3,000 lb of metal is subtracted from the pole's weight. If this would take it below the critical limit, the pole would collapse. The only way to sustain it would be to cast another major creation into it, renewing the duration. But a lot of features have upkeep, which would accrue additional costs, until the point where perhaps you need two major creationed metal masses in it at a time, and so on until it's simply unsunstainable.

On the other hand, Major Creation a bunch of metal pay upkeep in ebbs. Or use lightning pools to store energy up, then dump it into a silverOut to cast Major Creation. That does run into accruing costs, but let's see how big we can make our platinum city instantaneously. :smallamused:

Density of Platinum in lb/ft^3 * ft^3/spell level * spell level * spell duration/casting time
1339 lb/ft^3 * 1 ft^3/spell level * 11 * 220 min/10 min = 324,038 lbs static.
That's a 324,400 ft radius (~61.4 miles) if you got 3,240 grammarists to all prepare it at the same time. It would last until next upkeep, of course.
(This scales as the square of spell level, though- 11th level is just the minimum.) Because upkeep is 5lbs per 100ft (ignoring the extra 400ft), each extra copy of silverOut you add gives you an extra twenty days on your duration if you're at the maximum range for one silverOut. If we have a single iceIn/phlogiston combo generating at least 12 ebbs/round with a woodOut (giving us our 11 for the casting), we can support 100 silverOuts off of one power source. That gives us 99*20+1 days… 1981 days, or 5.4 years. (We no longer need so many grammarists all at once, since they can grow the city at any point during the five years- the later they do, the longer it lasts.) So no, it's not even state-spanning, but you can create 11,900 square miles of city (a bit more than 39 New York Cities) that lasts for over five years- less if you want fancy features.

[Kellus]

On the other hand, Major Creation a bunch of metal pay upkeep in ebbs. Or use lightning pools to store energy up, then dump it into a silverOut to cast Major Creation. That does run into accruing costs, but let's see how big we can make our platinum city instantaneously. :smallamused:

Density of Platinum in lb/ft^3 * ft^3/spell level * spell level * spell duration/casting time
1339 lb/ft^3 * 1 ft^3/spell level * 11 * 220 min/10 min = 324,038 lbs static.
That's a 324,400 ft radius (~61.4 miles) if you got 3,240 grammarists to all prepare it at the same time. It would last until next upkeep, of course.
(This scales as the square of spell level, though- 11th level is just the minimum.) Because upkeep is 5lbs per 100ft (ignoring the extra 400ft), each extra copy of silverOut you add gives you an extra twenty days on your duration if you're at the maximum range for one silverOut. If we have a single iceIn/phlogiston combo generating at least 12 ebbs/round with a woodOut (giving us our 11 for the casting), we can support 100 silverOuts off of one power source. That gives us 99*20+1 days… 1981 days, or 5.4 years. (We no longer need so many grammarists all at once, since they can grow the city at any point during the five years- the later they do, the longer it lasts.) So no, it's not even state-spanning, but you can create 11,900 square miles of city (a bit more than 39 New York Cities) that lasts for over five years- less if you want fancy features.

Okay, I give up. That's awesome. :smallcool:

[ShadowFireLance]

On the other hand, Major Creation a bunch of metal pay upkeep in ebbs. Or use lightning pools to store energy up, then dump it into a silverOut to cast Major Creation. That does run into accruing costs, but let's see how big we can make our platinum city instantaneously. :smallamused:

Density of Platinum in lb/ft^3 * ft^3/spell level * spell level * spell duration/casting time
1339 lb/ft^3 * 1 ft^3/spell level * 11 * 220 min/10 min = 324,038 lbs static.
That's a 324,400 ft radius (~61.4 miles) if you got 3,240 grammarists to all prepare it at the same time. It would last until next upkeep, of course.
(This scales as the square of spell level, though- 11th level is just the minimum.) Because upkeep is 5lbs per 100ft (ignoring the extra 400ft), each extra copy of silverOut you add gives you an extra twenty days on your duration if you're at the maximum range for one silverOut. If we have a single iceIn/phlogiston combo generating at least 12 ebbs/round with a woodOut (giving us our 11 for the casting), we can support 100 silverOuts off of one power source. That gives us 99*20+1 days… 1981 days, or 5.4 years. (We no longer need so many grammarists all at once, since they can grow the city at any point during the five years- the later they do, the longer it lasts.) So no, it's not even state-spanning, but you can create 11,900 square miles of city (a bit more than 39 New York Cities) that lasts for over five years- less if you want fancy features.


Why do I know think that this Class Requires Knowlege above my pay grade? (And for that matter, Above my Personal Knowledge level)

[QuidEst]

Okay, I give up. That's awesome. :smallcool:

Actually, we're not finished abusing this yet. We've already established that we can use metamagic with silverIn. We can cast Extended Major Creation in order to double the duration for an increase of only 1 spell level. That puts our minimum caster level at 13, but we also gain the benefit of the increased caster level! We've got plenty of ebbs to fuel it. Because mass goes up as the square of the caster level, it allows us to increase our radius without changing our duration.

If we really want to go all-out, we can eke slightly better performance out of lead. It's half as dense as platinum, but lasts three times as long, making swamps the optimal choice for area or duration.


Why do I know think that this Class Requires Knowlege above my pay grade? (And for that matter, Above my Personal Knowledge level)
It's a class based on engineering. :smalltongue: It doesn't require math to use, just to abuse. (Well, Eldrikinetics takes math to use.)

[tallonRook]

I drew something up about gramaric circuit diagrams once, would anyone else be interested in that? They were kind of a cross between electrical circuit diagrams and alchemy symbols. I'm working on a second draft right now, at least for my own reference (and with all the stuff that's been included since).

[ShadowFireLance]

This....Is utterly amazing.
Finally finished Alechmety...now, My Homebrew Approver is probobally going to tear this to shreds, But...Still, I think I now Understand some of the Text walls

[Draconas1]

The skill prerequisite for geoccultism is Knowledge (geography), but the key skill and the one used for skill DCs is Survival, is that right?

[Kellus]

The skill prerequisite for geoccultism is Knowledge (geography), but the key skill and the one used for skill DCs is Survival, is that right?

No, that was from an earlier draft, before I decided to stick with my decision not to use Knowledge skills as the key skills for the disciplines. Great catch! I fixed it up, Survival is the prerequisite skill. :smallsmile:


I drew something up about gramaric circuit diagrams once, would anyone else be interested in that? They were kind of a cross between electrical circuit diagrams and alchemy symbols. I'm working on a second draft right now, at least for my own reference (and with all the stuff that's been included since).

I know that I would be really interested to see what you came up with, at least! :smallwink:

[ShadowFireLance]

Alright, A few questions:

1.Geoccultism:
You meation, And I qoute:



GEOC 235: Bizarre Biomes:
You can place terrain features *Edited* mineral deposits.
I never saw this meantioned past that, Am I just derpy?

2.How long does the Stuff in the Biome Last after the pole fails?

3. In Genreal, How long does something last without anything happening to it?

That..is it..I expected more questions, It is a lot easier to understand once i learned basic terms, Well.
*Is now happy because he now understands, And Can Abuse this Class*

[Kellus]

I never saw this meantioned past that, Am I just derpy?

Mineral deposits you can place include clay, packed earth, rubble, and shale, I think.


2.How long does the Stuff in the Biome Last after the pole fails?

It doesn't. If the pole fails, all of the features in the biome disappear. HOWEVER:


A geoccult field does not overwrite everything in the area, only natural elements. Trees, rocks, leaves, grass, dirst, and so on, are subsumed into the pole; if the field is broken later on, the old terrain elements reassert themselves as if nothing had happened. Animals and artificial elements such as houses, are not subsumed like this; instead, the landscape changes around them. Things that a geoccult pole creates are real and tangible, and last if taken out of the area. Once removed, they don't disappear if the pole collapses.

Basically, if you mine some clay, take it out of the biome, and then collapse the pole, you get to keep the clay.


3. In Genreal, How long does something last without anything happening to it?

Not sure I understand the question? :smallconfused:


That..is it..I expected more questions, It is a lot easier to understand once i learned basic terms, Well.
*Is now happy because he now understands, And Can Abuse this Class*

I'm glad you're finding it easier to understand! It's intricate, but I don't think that has to mean the same thing as obtuse. I've certainly tried to make it as approachable as I can, it's just a very complicated ruleset because of the nature of the project. :smallsmile:

[ShadowFireLance]

Mineral deposits you can place include clay, packed earth, rubble, and shale, I think.



It doesn't. If the pole fails, all of the features in the biome disappear. HOWEVER:



Basically, if you mine some clay, take it out of the biome, and then collapse the pole, you get to keep the clay.



Not sure I understand the question? :smallconfused:



I'm glad you're finding it easier to understand! It's intricate, but I don't think that has to mean the same thing as obtuse. I've certainly tried to make it as approachable as I can, it's just a very complicated ruleset because of the nature of the project. :smallsmile:


ignore #3, I read something wrong.

Alrighty, This...Has become much easier....

Also, On Numbah #2...You should put Gold/Etc as a Source......:smallwink:



It doesn't. If the pole fails, all of the features in the biome disappear. HOWEVER:

I can see someone Climbing to the top of a Huge Mountian made by a Grameriest, And He's like, "YEAH, I CLIMBED THIS HUGE MOUNTAIN!"
Then it Dissapears.
Hehehehehe...

[Amechra]

I'm glad people like the Platinum pole.

Admittedly, two of the uses for Bizzarchitecture that pop to mind first are having a pair of bathrooms with only one door (one for guys, and one for gals), and the other is having a city/other biome that can only be entered through one door, because otherwise it doesn't exist.

[Omnicrat]

As usual, I can't possibly plan out every dumb thing that wizards comes out with. An item that transfers XP is possibly the dumbest thing I've heard of in a while– who possibly thought that would be a good idea? Ever?
I'm sorry if this sounds jerkish, but did either of you actually read that link or did you just look at the title? Its acctually some pretty good (in my opinion) rules about trading experience for the soul purpose of magic item creation, so the fighter can donate the xp for his shiny new sword.


Thanks for bringing it to my attention, though! I didn't even realize that was a thing– I'll put a note in the EI description about not being able to transfer the XP to anybody else, just in case! :smallwink:
This really isn't necessary. Its not very exploitable, as EIs can use very few magic items themselves, and I'm not even sure they could qualify, being magically obedient.

[Kellus]

I'm sorry if this sounds jerkish, but did either of you actually read that link or did you just look at the title? Its acctually some pretty good (in my opinion) rules about trading experience for the soul purpose of magic item creation, so the fighter can donate the xp for his shiny new sword.

As it turns out, I did read it. It is NEVER okay for someone to be able to trade in their potential future growth for immediate power. It doesn't matter if it's the wizard paying it or the fighter paying it or what. XP costs are not, have never been, and never will be an acceptable conceptual space in any way, shape, or form. Being able to have your cohort pay the XP cost instead of you is somehow even worse.


This really isn't necessary. Its not very exploitable, as EIs can use very few magic items themselves, and I'm not even sure they could qualify, being magically obedient.

It's a grey area– if it came up once, it's possible it could come up again, might as well head it off.


Almost done the first hybrid PrC, should have it up sometime tomorrow! :smallsmile:

[Omnicrat]

As it turns out, I did read it. It is NEVER okay for someone to be able to trade in their potential future growth for immediate power. It doesn't matter if it's the wizard paying it or the fighter paying it or what. XP costs are not, have never been, and never will be an acceptable conceptual space in any way, shape, or form. Being able to have your cohort pay the XP cost instead of you is somehow even worse.

Ah, so you are opposed to the existance of xp costs for the creation of magic items to begin with, then? Do you have any alternate systems you would recommend while using gramarie?

I figured you didn't read it based on how both you and Silva were talking about it. I sounded like he was worried about infinite level gain, and you were worried about an item letting experience be traded (not complaining about the item creation rules as they stand).

All this said, I also really dislike having to burn xp for certain spells and all magic item creation, and would like to know what substitute system you recommend, even for use outside gramarie.

sidenote: I think the intent was to only have PC or magic item commissioning NPC be able to give xp, so unless the magic sword is for the cohort, I'm not sure it would be able to give the xp.

[Arcanist]

Ah, so you are opposed to the existance of xp costs for the creation of magic items to begin with, then? Do you have any alternate systems you would recommend while using gramarie?

Pathfinder (I know this isn't for PF, but let's assume okay?) converts the XP cost into 5gp per 1xp to create the item, which I think makes a little bit more sense with Gramarie. Just a thought :smalltongue:

[QuidEst]

All this said, I also really dislike having to burn xp for certain spells and all magic item creation, and would like to know what substitute system you recommend, even for use outside gramarie.

Huzzah for Pathfinder! :smallwink:

[Kellus]

Ah, so you are opposed to the existance of xp costs for the creation of magic items to begin with, then? Do you have any alternate systems you would recommend while using gramarie?

I figured you didn't read it based on how both you and Silva were talking about it. I sounded like he was worried about infinite level gain, and you were worried about an item letting experience be traded (not complaining about the item creation rules as they stand).

All this said, I also really dislike having to burn xp for certain spells and all magic item creation, and would like to know what substitute system you recommend, even for use outside gramarie.

sidenote: I think the intent was to only have PC or magic item commissioning NPC be able to give xp, so unless the magic sword is for the cohort, I'm not sure it would be able to give the xp.

Pathfinder's solution is certainly one of them. I'm not a huge fan of it, but it's usable. This problem is one of the reasons I made two PrC's for the system really good at making stuff for free (the graughtsman and the arcanitect).

[QuidEst]

Pathfinder's solution is certainly one of them. I'm not a huge fan of it, but it's usable. This problem is one of the reasons I made two PrC's for the system really good at making stuff for free (the graughtsman and the arcanitect).

If you wanted to convert it over, I would have them reduce crafting time, since that really piles up if you're making a full set of equipment.

[Arcanist]

If you wanted to convert it over, I would have them reduce crafting time, since that really piles up if you're making a full set of equipment.

True. It takes enough time to create truly amazing Principles. Let's not add in more time for item creation as well :smalltongue: Hell, I'd like to see for some methods to reduce time without having to hire an Alchemister (I'm experimenting with names...)

Question:

Is it possible to use a Ballistic Engine to fire an Orthogonal and have it gain the Push used from the Ballistic Engine to send it father and faster then normal? In essence, can you spring board one engine from another

Ballistic Engine #1 fires Orthogonal Engine #1 at 400 push, and then Orthogonal Engine #1 triggers to shoot of it's own Push generating an additional 100 Push making it 500 Push.

[ScionoftheVoid]

I still love this system. I'm going to need to re-read it before I try to do anything with or create any prestige classes for it, however, and that'll take a while. Geoccultism is fantastic, firstly for introducing meteotheurgical effects (which I've always wanted to play around with) and secondly for bizzarchitecture giving a relatively easy way to build Atlantis (once one has a sufficient supply of ebbs to upkeep the place, of course). Definitely going to be one of my first projects once I've re-read everything.

[Amechra]

I actually don't mind XP costs conceptually as a "thing"; they are a balance mechanic, anyway, since it means that using these powerful things slows down personal growth.

I do remember that 2nd Edition had you lose Constitution for crafting; actually, having crafting magic items inflict you with ability burn might be an acceptable solution; better not try to make something too powerful, or you might kill yourself.

I'll have to hash something out later, but I can see that as working conceptually (you're sealing the magic in with your life force) and mechanically (crafting magic items certainly makes you more fragile...)

Don't know how you'd convert the Graughtsman and Arcanitect to that kind of system, though...

[davethebrave]

...secondly for bizzarchitecture giving a relatively easy way to build Atlantis (once one has a sufficient supply of ebbs to upkeep the place, of course)...

And also explains why no one can find the frickin' place...someone blew up their pole!

[Qwertystop]

No, that's entirely right; let's say again my critical mass is 1,000, my upkeep every day is 500 for my features, and major creation gives me 3,000 lb. I use major creation on my 1,500 lb pole, raising my mass to 4,500 lb. I buy 2,000 lb of features, putting me at 2,500 lb. My daily upkeep is now 1,000 instead. So the next day, 1,000 lb will be drained. But when the duration of the major creation expires, 3,000 lb will be drained. If I don't refresh the major creation in time, I'll drop to -500 lb, which would collapse the pole. But even if I do place a new major creation into it in time, 1,000 lb will still be drained, putting me at 1,500 lb. Still above the critical mass, but the next day's upkeep will drop me to the point where the pole collapses. So now I need to have two major created masses of metal added to the pole, raising me to 4,500. But when those two expire now, it would drop me to -1,500 lb, which means I need to keep both of them maintained at all times. And every day the upkeep drains more metal, putting me more and more in debt to major creation.

So it's awesome for the short-term, but you're never going to be able to have huge continent-spanning poles or environments lasting for years at a time or anything using it.
I still don't quite see the problem. Lets say your Major Creation lasts for 13.33 repeating hours (caster level 20, Extended, precious metal). That means that it will be used to pay for, at most, one day's upkeep (just don't cast it at the wrong time). Figure out exactly how much one day's upkeep is. Lets say it's 20 lbs. So you make 20 pounds of platinum, and when upkeep rolls over, that metal disappears. A few hours later, when time runs out, the metal's already gone. Why would it disappear again?

[ScionoftheVoid]

And also explains why no one can find the frickin' place...someone blew up their pole!

Or, as I was thinking, no-one has been admitted into the secondary set that the Atlanteans live in.

[Omnicrat]

I still don't quite see the problem. Lets say your Major Creation lasts for 13.33 repeating hours (caster level 20, Extended, precious metal). That means that it will be used to pay for, at most, one day's upkeep (just don't cast it at the wrong time). Figure out exactly how much one day's upkeep is. Lets say it's 20 lbs. So you make 20 pounds of platinum, and when upkeep rolls over, that metal disappears. A few hours later, when time runs out, the metal's already gone. Why would it disappear again?

I believe that it is not actually the newly added matter getting consumed, but the oldest matter. Therefor, all you do with the spell is temporarily increase the total mass, not actually pay the cost.

[Silva Stormrage]

Hey, will the Apoigeneer get an ability that reduces platinum cost and also get special abilities for the city features? Like the other terrain types?

[Omnicrat]

Pathfinder's solution is certainly one of them. I'm not a huge fan of it, but it's usable. This problem is one of the reasons I made two PrC's for the system really good at making stuff for free (the graughtsman and the arcanitect).

Unless I'm wrong, pathfinder is a strait gold instead of xp trade, right? That really doesn't seem too great. Maybe something like Amechra's idea involving ability burn, but have it be healed at a slow rate or something?

[Draconas1]

Kellus, for the thread about invocations for grammarists and silver outputs and inputs on Minmax boards(can't get an account there for some reason), I think the silver outputs and inputs make sense, especially given your fireball example in the arcanodynamics description(because most of the energy would be spent pulling the fire from the elemental plane of fire and turning it into a fire, so for probably most spells, quite a bit of the energy would probably be spent making the spell then actually makes up the end result).
For invocations, would it make sense for them to have wood shape in addition to stoneshape, and while I know there isn't such a thing as metal shape, maybe something for that too? And maybe each specialization(and universalist) gives a special invocation? (like geoccultism gives endure elements, but maybe the invocation also gives total immunity to all traits of biomes created by them, while arcanodynamics give the energy adaption power in invocation form, but you might convert the energy to puissance if in contact with something that can use it instead of light)
Edit: Oh, and Sirpercival, you might want some sort of general workforce(besides just simple machines) for the migration habitat. I recommend my armored deadsnow zombie idea because, while it does require a specialised doctorate in geoccultism, you're probably going to need to have that anyway, and you only have to prepare it once on the city pole as opposed to all the times you would have to if you were making circuited chassi.
In addition, zombies don't eat(something chassi need to do unless they have a ring of sustenance) or sleep, and can be controlled by a zeitgeist without hooking it up to a massive heuristical circuit.
If you don't wan't to go into the whole soul thing, just extract knowledge or exp by putting your death rows and hospitals on black lagoons, with the haunted bog being only a 5 foot patch(since the wraith's created are stated to haunt it, presumably they can't leave) and destroying the resulting wraith to let it pass on, before leaving the dead body in deadsnow and then turning it's skin, as well as it's subcutaneous an fatty tissue(which is less then a cubic foot, and should average about an inch all over) into biostructure before it raises as a zombie.

[Draken]

By the way, since platinum is finding its way into more and more principles, will it eventually be added to ALCH 286's options? As it stands, it is simply the hardest metal for a Gramarist to get his hands on (simply because all the others are avaiable through this principle).

[Lateral]

December 18th, 2012– Hey, I caught one before everyone else! Acid transformers were using the wrong volume; a flask of acid is a pint, not a cubic foot.

Huh. I kind of assumed that that was intentional.

[sirpercival]

Kellus, for the thread about invocations for grammarists and silver outputs and inputs on Minmax boards(can't get an account there for some reason), Um, are you having the same problem Omnicrat was? You're not getting activation emails? Or is it some other problem?

Edit: Oh, and Sirpercival, you might want some sort of general workforce(besides just simple machines) for the migration habitat. I recommend my armored deadsnow zombie idea because, while it does require a specialised doctorate in geoccultism, you're probably going to need to have that anyway, and you only have to prepare it once on the city pole as opposed to all the times you would have to if you were making circuited chassi.
In addition, zombies don't eat(something chassi need to do unless they have a ring of sustenance) or sleep, and can be controlled by a zeitgeist without hooking it up to a massive heuristical circuit.
If you don't wan't to go into the whole soul thing, just extract knowledge or exp by putting your death rows and hospitals on black lagoons, with the haunted bog being only a 5 foot patch(since the wraith's created are stated to haunt it, presumably they can't leave) and destroying the resulting wraith to let it pass on, before leaving the dead body in deadsnow and then turning it's skin, as well as it's subcutaneous an fatty tissue(which is less then a cubic foot, and should average about an inch all over) into biostructure before it raises as a zombie.

Why do you think I need to have an actual workforce? And why couldn't it just be pure biostructure? You should put together a deadsnow zombie production blueprint :D

[sirpercival]

By the way, since platinum is finding its way into more and more principles, will it eventually be added to ALCH 286's options? As it stands, it is simply the hardest metal for a Gramarist to get his hands on (simply because all the others are avaiable through this principle).

That would obviate one of the Constructor's Contractor's abilities...

EDIT: herpyderpyderp

[Draken]

That would obviate one of the Constructor's abilities...

Ah, yes, the Contractor.

I don't know. Given how platinum is finding its way into the rest of gramarie (when the Contractor was made I believe it was only used to make Orichalcum), making it baseline would probably be wise.

As opposed to locking it behind the capstone choice of a prestige class that has loaded thematics (fieeeendish contracts).

[Draconas1]

Um, are you having the same problem Omnicrat was? You're not getting activation emails? Or is it some other problem?

same problem



Why do you think I need to have an actual workforce? And why couldn't it just be pure biostructure? You should put together a deadsnow zombie production blueprint :D
Mainly just for heavy lifting, drudge work, hazordous environments(since they have self-healing armor grafted to them), and to stop mutinies, as for why not just pure biostructure, the zombies wouldn't be able to move due to not having any muscles(skeletons probably could though)
Also, I'll edit in a deadsnow zombie production blueprint.
Edit: Here it is

Blueprint: Armored Deadsnow Zombie
Principles Necessary: BIOY 101, GEOC 101, 235 & 374, with 343 highly recommended
Prestige Class: No, but Apogineer’s An Artificial Artic Earthlore will allow you to apply corpsecrafting to them.
Explanation: This is instructions on creating Deadsnow zombies, although the final step can also be applied to various other types of corporeal undead, (just undead, because it will probably give living things psoriasis from hell as they reject the biollurgical material, as well as take away fat reserves)
1. create deadsnow. This can be done in artic biomes or by mixing gold into a geoccult pole. It is recommended to apply this to a pole that has a zeitgeist if you intend on having the zombies accomplish detailed tasks so that it can give them step by step instructions(I’m assuming, that since they can be controlled from the pole, the zeitgeist can sense them)
2. Place body in deadsnow before midnight. If you don’t want to get into an ethical argument on whether or not necromancer is trapping their souls, first kill or have made sure the being died in a black lagoon, then if you don’t like wraiths make the haunted bog a mere 5 foot space so as to trap them. You can then kill the wraith to release the person’s soul to their afterlife.
3. Turn the skin, subcutaneous tissues, and fatty tissues of the corpse into plates of biostructure, while still allowing movement. This should average around 1 inch thick throughout it’s body for rules purposes. You may want to do this before midnight if you don’t have anything better to do so as to save time.
Notes: You won’t end up with massive amounts of zombies per pole through this method. This is okay, since they are incapable of leaving their pole of origin. Because of this their main purpose is for drudgework and heavy lifting, working in hazardous environments, and to prevent mutinies and attacks.

[Amechra]

Well, I kinda balanced the Platinum stuff around Platinum being harder to access...

More particularly, the Platinum Poles supernatural stuff.

1. Power Ribbons make heuristic nets that they travel through count as overlapping all other nets that they travel through. Hey there, Dreamason, how you doing? With Dreamason, you can literally create a small intranet with that feature alone.
2. Zeitgeists aren't strong in-and-of-themselves, but, when combined with certain other things (and some other material I'm writing, which I don't know if Kellus will accept), can get to be hella good. Hell, they already can modify the features in a field due to the fact that they can manipulate the pole, and if you set behaviors like "kill any invaders, would you kindly?", they can literally just create precision Earthquakes and Firestorms. Or, hell, even just Acid Rain.
3. Bizzarchitecture allows for literally impenetrable defenses, especially with a zeitgeist ("You can only enter this room through the door if you are a law-abiding citizen who is <insert other arbitrary restrictions you want here.>"); you can make secure bolt-holes practically no-one else can enter, can make entire cities that no-one can enter except through the front gate (trying to teleport in leaves you in an empty plain surrounded by city walls), or, hell, could make it so that anyone who walks through a door who isn't of the right specifications just falls into a pit full of acid that isn't there if someone else tries to get in. It can also be really helpful for hiding weaponry and the like.

So, it might be a good idea to keep Platinum restricted (and you can always make a non-devil-related alchemetry using PrC...)

[Qwertystop]

(trying to teleport in leaves you in an empty plain surrounded by city walls)

Why put the city walls outside the city? Inside makes them self-repairing, and hides it even better.

[Amechra]

Why put the city walls outside the city? Inside makes them self-repairing, and hides it even better.

To skimp on ebbs a little bit, and to have a gate people can actually access for when you want them to come in?

Besides, the assumption is that the "city" isn't the entire field; you basically just leave the walls outside the city, but inside the field, as it were.

[Qwertystop]

To skimp on ebbs a little bit, and to have a gate people can actually access for when you want them to come in?

Besides, the assumption is that the "city" isn't the entire field; you basically just leave the walls outside the city, but inside the field, as it were.

Oh. I was thinking the entrance would be a freestanding gate, and other than that there would be no sign of the city.

[Milo v3]

Oh. I was thinking the entrance would be a freestanding gate, and other than that there would be no sign of the city.

I'd make it an empty plain with a white rock to signify the gate. Only a small number of people would know that that's the trigger.

[Morcleon]

I'd make it an empty plain with a white rock to signify the gate. Only a small number of people would know that that's the trigger.

If we're going for camouflage, just make it a tree. They tend to stand out a lot less than random white rocks. :smallwink:

[Milo v3]

If we're going for camouflage, just make it a tree. They tend to stand out a lot less than random white rocks. :smallwink:

I was actually thinking more a peeble than a rock.

[Morcleon]

I was actually thinking more a peeble than a rock.

But then, couldn't someone just pick up said pebble? Unless you make it fixed in space, in which case it'll seem really strange that there'd just be this immovable pebble. :smalltongue:

[ShadowFireLance]

But then, couldn't someone just pick up said pebble? Unless you make it fixed in space, in which case it'll seem really strange that there'd just be this immovable pebble. :smalltongue:

hehe..
*Tripes over Pebble*
"FORGET YOU LITTLE PEEB...YEEEEEEAAAAAAAAOOOUCCCCHHHHHHHH!!!"
*Broke toe kicking unmovable Pebble

[Milo v3]

I'm currently making a druid themed Geoccultism specialist class, and have decided to give it access to an additional material; Wood.

Which adds the following for Principles:

ALCH 364: Wood ascends into Darkwood, which is infused with aether. Anything made from Darkwood weighs half it would otherwise and can float in the air with a supply of Puissance. One cubic foot of Darkwood can support itself in the air with one ebb of puissance per round. If a living tree of Darkwood is supported in this way, they continue to survive from the water and chemicals in the air. Darkwood has a Diplomacy DC of 50.
ELDK 219: You can also build the following engine:

Teleballistic: A Teleballistic engine uses dirt as a fuel source and is made out of wood. It requires 1 pound of dirt, at which point it can be activated twice before refuelling. Unlike most engines, a ballistic engine imparts its Push to an object at a distance instead of to itself. The object is then launched at any angle the operator likes. This allows the engine to make actual ranged attacks with the object being launched if it is moving fast enough. Every time the engine is activated it generates a one-time burst (instead of sustained motion) of 500 points of Push, with the amount of push reduced by 20 for every five feet away the target is. A teleballistic engine can also be charged for a single use with 10 ebbs of puissance. Objects launched with a teleballistic engine have a range increment of 1/20 their speed (round down).
GEOC 101:

Material|Critical DC|Biome |Baseline Terrain
Wood|25|Jungle|Detritus
Jungle (Detritus): This is a dark soil is rich with decayed animal and plant matter forming a dense leaf-litter. Vegetation in detritus grows 1.5 times faster than they normally would. Jungles have a humid climate, ranging from 10 to 35 Centigrade. A jungle biome receives 50% more precipitation than normal biomes.
GEOC 235: A wooden pole allows you to spread a jungle biome. A jungle has detritus as its baseline, and additional terrain features include canopy, moss, quicksand, streams, trees, and undergrowth. Jungles possess a large abundance of natural resources such as wood, but possess many hazards. Jungle soil is rich with life, and can be useful for agriculture.
Canopy: Canopy is a large collection of branches and leaves in the upper layers of trees. This feature creates a canopy in a five foot cube, which creatures can travel across as if it was light undergrowth with a Climb check (DC 5). This canopy can only be placed in a cube with trees, adjacent to trees, or a massive tree and it must be at least 10 ft. above the base of the trees. Canopy cost 10 lb for every 5 ft. cube.
Moss: Moss is a light covering of greenery on the ground. It is very soft, and aside from being pleasant to the touch, it is very easy to move quietly on. All Move Silently checks made on moss gain a +4 circumstance bonus. If moss is placed on canopy, the Climb check to move on it is doubled. Moss is reasonably nutritious, and some species can survive on it. It also grows ridiculously fast, and replenishes itself every six hours instead of every day. Moss costs 5 lb for every 10ft. patch.
Quicksand: Quicksand is an infamous danger of the wilds. This is ground that appears solid until any weight is put on it, at which point it begins to suck the mass inside of it. Quicksand costs 25 lb for every 5ft. patch of it.
Streams: A stream is no wider than 5 to 10ft. wide, and no more than 5ft. deep. These are freshwater streams, but unless connected to an outside water supply the water will quickly grow stagnant and gross. Streams cost 5 lb for every 10ft. in length.
Trees: Trees are of course the most important feature of any jungle, useful for hiding, climbing, tactical positioning, wood, and so on. The trees created with a wooden pole can be light or massive. Light trees require negligible space, while massive trees require a 5ft. square. Light trees cost 5 lb, and massive trees cost 20 lb. Trees can be placed at a discount when grouping them together in a forest; up to four light trees can be placed in a single 5ft. square, and the third and fourth are free. Similarly, up to two light trees can occupy the same square as a massive tree, and they are also free.
Undergrowth: Undergrowth is mostly composed of vines, roots, and similar vegetation, and it restricts movement. Undergrowth created with a wooden pole is the light type described. Undergrowth costs 5 lb for every 5ft. patch.
GEOC 323:
Wood (Clouds): Similar to the fog created by Lead Poles, Wooden Poles can generate clouds at any altitude. Clouds obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 15ft. Creatures 15ft. away have concealment (attacks by or against them have a 20% miss chance). In addition, the surrounding is coated in slippery condensation, increasing the DC of balance, climb, and tumble checks by 5 and a DC 5 Balance check is required to run or charge. Cloud consumes 15 lb of metal for every hour that it's in effect.
Wood (Monsoon): This is strong wind combined with the ferocity of a flood. All flames are extinguished. All ranged attacks are impossible (except with siege weapons, which have a –8 penalty on attack rolls), as are Listen checks because of the howling wind. Creatures and objects within the Monsoon must make a Fortitude save (DC 30) or forced prone and knocked 1d4×20 feet in the same direction the Monsoon is travelling, taking 2d6 points of damage per 10 feet. Monsoons inflict massive amounts of damage upon its surroundings and is known to tear trees from the ground. A Monsoon is 60ft. in radius, travels at a speed of 40 ft. per turn and its direction is controlled from the geoccult pole. Monsoons cost 200 lb to start, and an additional 120 lb every round that it's maintained and controlled.
GEOC 374: Jungle supernatural terrain features include feycast canopy, primeval rivers, and wandering wilds.
Feycast Canopy: These leaves and branches are fused with the essence of the Feywilds. These function as normal Canopy except that its shadows bleed into different realities. The area under the Feycast Canopy exists in both its current location and the Feywild at the same time. Anything under the canopy can interact with the the counterpart Feycast Canopy as they share the same place, but the surroundings are still the original plane you were on before entering the Feycast Canopy. At the start of Dusk and the end of Dawn, the plane surrounding Feycast Canopy changes to its counterpart, allowing for planar travel. Feycast Canopy costs 1000 lb per cubic foot, which needs to be repaid every day.
Primeval River: This stream flows from a rift in time, tainting its contents and the life around it. This functions as a normal stream except that anything fully immersed in the water is affected by the flow of time at half the normal rate. For all purposes, they experience two rounds for every normal round. In addition, anything born in the waters of the river possesses a random level one graft. Primeval Rivers cost 800 lb for every 10ft. in length.
Wandering Wilds: This feature creates an elementally infused soil combined with decaying plant matter which has the potential of new life. If 5 ft square of detritus is dealt 30 points of electricity damage or has 5 volts transferred into it then the plant matter within the soil forms a Shambling Mound. The shambling mound is controlled by the geoccult pole as a logical decision; the pole can have a number of Hit Dice of shambling mounds under its thrall at a time equal to twice the Survival check made to prepare it. Wandering Wilds costs 100 lb for every 5ft. patch; each patch of wandering wilds can only produce a single shambling mound, after which it requires six months until it is ready to produce another.


Naturalist [Gramarie]
Benefits: You gain access to using wood as a material for various forms of gramarie as above, though you must still know the principle to prepare it.

[sirpercival]

I'm currently making a druid themed Geoccultism specialist class, and have decided to give it access to an additional material; Wood.

Which adds the following for Principles:

ALCH 364: Wood ascends into Darkwood, which is infused with aether. Anything made from Darkwood weighs half it would otherwise and can float in the air with a supply of Puissance. One cubic foot of Darkwood can support itself in the air with one ebb of puissance per round. If a living tree of Darkwood is supported in this way, they continue to survive from the water and chemicals in the air. Darkwood has a Diplomacy DC of 50.
ELDK 219: You can also build the following engine:

Teleballistic: A Teleballistic engine uses dirt as a fuel source and is made out of wood. It requires 1 pound of dirt, at which point it can be activated twice before refuelling. Unlike most engines, a ballistic engine imparts its Push to an object at a distance instead of to itself. The object is then launched at any angle the operator likes. This allows the engine to make actual ranged attacks with the object being launched if it is moving fast enough. Every time the engine is activated it generates a one-time burst (instead of sustained motion) of 500 points of Push, with the amount of push reduced by 20 for every five feet away the target is. A teleballistic engine can also be charged for a single use with 10 ebbs of puissance. Objects launched with a teleballistic engine have a range increment of 1/20 their speed (round down).
GEOC 101:

Material|Critical DC|Biome |Baseline Terrain
Wood|25|Jungle|Detritus
Jungle (Detritus): This is a dark soil is rich with decayed animal and plant matter forming a dense leaf-litter. Vegetation in detritus grows 1.5 times faster than they normally would. Jungles have a humid climate, ranging from 10 to 35 Centigrade. A jungle biome receives 50% more precipitation than normal biomes.
GEOC 235: A wooden pole allows you to spread a jungle biome. A jungle has detritus as its baseline, and additional terrain features include canopy, moss, quicksand, streams, trees, and undergrowth. Jungles possess a large abundance of natural resources such as wood, but possess many hazards. Jungle soil is rich with life, and can be useful for agriculture.
Canopy: Canopy is a large collection of branches and leaves in the upper layers of trees. This feature creates a canopy in a five foot cube, which creatures can travel across as if it was light undergrowth with a Climb check (DC 5). This canopy can only be placed in a cube with trees, adjacent to trees, or a massive tree and it must be at least 10 ft. above the base of the trees. Canopy cost 10 lb for every 5 ft. cube.
Moss: Moss is a light covering of greenery on the ground. It is very soft, and aside from being pleasant to the touch, it is very easy to move quietly on. All Move Silently checks made on moss gain a +4 circumstance bonus. If moss is placed on canopy, the Climb check to move on it is doubled. Moss is reasonably nutritious, and some species can survive on it. It also grows ridiculously fast, and replenishes itself every six hours instead of every day. Moss costs 5 lb for every 10ft. patch.
Quicksand: Quicksand is an infamous danger of the wilds. This is ground that appears solid until any weight is put on it, at which point it begins to suck the mass inside of it. Quicksand costs 25 lb for every 5ft. patch of it.
Streams: A stream is no wider than 5 to 10ft. wide, and no more than 5ft. deep. These are freshwater streams, but unless connected to an outside water supply the water will quickly grow stagnant and gross. Streams cost 5 lb for every 10ft. in length.
Trees: Trees are of course the most important feature of any jungle, useful for hiding, climbing, tactical positioning, wood, and so on. The trees created with a wooden pole can be light or massive. Light trees require negligible space, while massive trees require a 5ft. square. Light trees cost 5 lb, and massive trees cost 20 lb. Trees can be placed at a discount when grouping them together in a forest; up to four light trees can be placed in a single 5ft. square, and the third and fourth are free. Similarly, up to two light trees can occupy the same square as a massive tree, and they are also free.
Undergrowth: Undergrowth is mostly composed of vines, roots, and similar vegetation, and it restricts movement. Undergrowth created with a wooden pole is the light type described. Undergrowth costs 5 lb for every 5ft. patch.
GEOC 323:
Wood (Clouds): Similar to the fog created by Lead Poles, Wooden Poles can generate clouds at any altitude. Clouds obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 15ft. Creatures 15ft. away have concealment (attacks by or against them have a 20% miss chance). In addition, the surrounding is coated in slippery condensation, increasing the DC of balance, climb, and tumble checks by 5 and a DC 5 Balance check is required to run or charge. Cloud consumes 15 lb of metal for every hour that it's in effect.
Wood (Monsoon): This is strong wind combined with the ferocity of a flood. All flames are extinguished. All ranged attacks are impossible (except with siege weapons, which have a –8 penalty on attack rolls), as are Listen checks because of the howling wind. Creatures and objects within the Monsoon must make a Fortitude save (DC 30) or forced prone and knocked 1d4×20 feet in the same direction the Monsoon is travelling, taking 2d6 points of damage per 10 feet. Monsoons inflict massive amounts of damage upon its surroundings and is known to tear trees from the ground. A Monsoon is 60ft. in radius, travels at a speed of 40 ft. per turn and its direction is controlled from the geoccult pole. Monsoons cost 200 lb to start, and an additional 120 lb every round that it's maintained and controlled.
GEOC 374: Jungle supernatural terrain features include feycast canopy, primeval rivers, and wandering wilds.
Feycast Canopy: These leaves and branches are fused with the essence of the Feywilds. These function as normal Canopy except that its shadows bleed into different realities. The area under the Feycast Canopy exists in both its current location and the Feywild at the same time. Anything under the canopy can interact with the the counterpart Feycast Canopy as they share the same place, but the surroundings are still the original plane you were on before entering the Feycast Canopy. At the start of Dusk and the end of Dawn, the plane surrounding Feycast Canopy changes to its counterpart, allowing for planar travel. Feycast Canopy costs 1000 lb per cubic foot, which needs to be repaid every day.
Primeval River: This stream flows from a rift in time, tainting its contents and the life around it. This functions as a normal stream except that anything fully immersed in the water is affected by the flow of time at half the normal rate. For all purposes, they experience two rounds for every normal round. In addition, anything born in the waters of the river possesses a random level one graft. Primeval Rivers cost 800 lb for every 10ft. in length.
Wandering Wilds: This feature creates an elementally infused soil combined with decaying plant matter which has the potential of new life. If 5 ft square of detritus is dealt 30 points of electricity damage or has 5 volts transferred into it then the plant matter within the soil forms a Shambling Mound. The shambling mound is controlled by the geoccult pole as a logical decision; the pole can have a number of Hit Dice of shambling mounds under its thrall at a time equal to twice the Survival check made to prepare it. Wandering Wilds costs 100 lb for every 5ft. patch; each patch of wandering wilds can only produce a single shambling mound, after which it requires six months until it is ready to produce another.


Sadly, it is hard to be original while making a Jungle after forests and marsh have already been done.

These look great!

[sirpercival]

Feedback would be greatly appreciated, especially on Transcendance...


The Transcholar


"And in the bloodlit dark behind his eyes, silver phosphenes boiled in from the edge of space, hypnagogic images jerking past like a film compiled of random frames. Symbols, figures, faces, a blurred, fragmented mandala of visual information."

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/288/9/d/illusionary_words_by_xeena_dragonkizz-d30qw9h.jpg
Image credit xeena-dragonkizz (http://xeena-dragonkizz.deviantart.com/) of deviantart.com

The Transcholar studies gramarie with a very specific goal in mind: that of transcending the normal, physical world to become a creature of pure gramarie.

Requirements: To become a transcholar you must meet all of the following requirements.
Gramarie: Any three HEUR or IMCH principles
Skills: Autohypnosis 13 ranks, Bluff 13 ranks
Specialization: Must be specialized in Heuristicism or Imachination

Hit Die: d4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifer

Class Skills: A transcholar's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (the Planes) (Int), Knowledge (psionics) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

The Transcholar
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|
Principles

1st|+0|+2|+0|+2|Applied focus, convergence (controller)|
+0

2nd|+1|+3|+0|+3|Convergence (sustainer), minor virtuality|
+1

3rd|+1|+3|+1|+3|Convergence (farseer), tangibility|
+2

4th|+2|+4|+1|+4|Convergence (thinker), doctorate principles|
+3

5th|+2|+4|+1|+4|Transcendance|
+4[/table]

All of the following are class features of the transcholar.

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: As a transcholar, you gain no additional weapon or armour proficiencies.

Applied focus: As a transcholar, your training depends heavily on a blend of techniques between heuristicism and imachinery. Upon entering this class, you count as a specialist in both disciplines, and can select specialist and doctorate-level principles from either discipline. However, the foundations of your education require a very specific skill set. You must learn all of the following principles at the earliest opportunity: ARCD101, BIOY101, ELDK101, HEUR101, HEUR245, HEUR328, IMCH101, IMCH295, YGGD101. If you already know all of these principles which are available for you to select, you may select other principles as normal.

Convergence (Su): A transcholar's studies bring you closer to your ultimate goal: to sublimate your essence into a being of pure gramarie. To do so, you must learn new applications of your gramaric principles in ways that affect and replace the needs of your physical body.
At 1st level, you begin altering your principles to affect your essence, starting with your Heuristicism principles. You can include yourself as an element in a gramaric circuit that you prepare; if you do so, you can make logical decisions at any control point within the circuit with only mental actions, without having to be at the actual location of the control point.
At 2nd level, you make the first physical changes to your body via a modified preparation of BIOY101, and become able to subsist on puissance alone. As long as you receive a number of ebbs of puissance per hour equal to your HD, you no longer need to eat or drink. If you receive twice that much, you no longer need sleep, and if you receive three times, you no longer breathe.
At 3rd level, your facility with Imachination principles improves, granting you the ability to create illusions in your mind of events which occur elsewhere. Whenever you are an element of a gramaric circuit, you can treat all bubbles connected to the circuit as scry sensors, as per the scrying spell (giving you information up to a 10-foot radius distance from the edge of the bubble). Any creature with Int 12 or higher that views such a bubble can make a DC 20 Intelligence check as normal to realize that the bubble is a scry sensor.
At 4th level, you come even closer to your ideal, using gramaric circuits to aid your thought processes. Whenever you are an element of a gramaric circuit, you can use the result of the circuit's Autohypnosis check in place of any mental skill check you make, though no more than once per round. In addition, you can make a number of logical decisions in the circuit per round equal to your Intelligence modifier.


Principles of Gramarie: You continue to advance your study of gramarie. At each level other than 1st, you learn a new principle of gramarie that you qualify for. At 4th level you gain access to Doctorate-level principles, and can refer to yourself as a doctor of any discipline you attain that level of knowledge in.

Minor virtuality (Su): Your experiments in becoming a virtual creature, one made entirely of gramarie, have paid dividends. Beginning at 2nd level, once per day per class level you can become incorporeal as a standard action, remaining so for up to 1 minute. During this time, your body fades into an immaterial form of altered imachinery that retains your basic likeness. While this ability is active, you acquire the incorporeal subtype. You gain a fly speed equal to your land speed (perfect maneuverability), as well as a deflection bonus to armor class equal to your natural armor bonus, if any (instead of the normal deflection bonus granted to incorporeal creatures). You can use your equipment normally, deriving benefits from items that enhance your capabilities, including armor and weapons; however, all your equipment remains material even when you are incorporeal (but see Tangibility, below).

While using this ability, you often appear almost like a ghost wearing items of the material world. This doesn’t make your equipment more susceptible to attack (the normal rules for attended objects apply), but it does make it impossible for you to enter or pass through solid objects while wearing solid equipment. If you drop your material equipment, you can pass through solid objects at will as normal for an incorporeal creature. If you become corporeal again (such as through an act of will or from the duration of this ability running out) in an occupied square, you are shunted to the nearest empty square, taking 1d6 damage for every 10 feet of movement.

Tangibility (Su): Upon reaching 3rd level, you learn to transform your equipment into gramarie, for a short time. Whenever you use your minor virtuality ability, you can virtualize your equipment as well, rendering it incorporeal with you. The number of pieces of equipment you can virtualize is equal to twice your Transcholar class level. This has no effect on the equipment’s function, but now when you are incorporeal, you can enter or pass through solid objects while wearing nothing other than the designated equipment. Once designated, the equipment automatically changes to incorporeal when you shed your body, and it returns to corporeality when you do.

Transcendance (Ex): At 5th level, you have achieved your goal, and transformed into a being of pure gramarie. You build an Essence Vault, a gramaric construction which maintains your existence, and leave behind the physical world forever.

To build your Essence Vault, first you prepare a semi-space via YGGD101, which is fixed to a location in space. Inside, you place a Simple Orthogonal Engine prepared with ELDK101; a WoodOut transformer prepared with ARCD101; an Additive Controlled illusion of yourself, targeting all available senses, prepared with IMCH295 and IMCH101 (and IMCH388 if you know it); and a gramaric circuit (via HEUR101) connecting them all, controlled by an Exotic Intelligence prepared using HEUR328. Finally, you place your own body and equipment within the semi-space, as an element of the circuit, close the semi-space from the inside, and use a modified version of BIOY101 to transcend the physical world.

Once you transcend, your own mentality replaces the Exotic Intelligence. You keep your mental ability scores, but lose your physical scores. Like a normal Exotic Intelligence, you can take 10 on all mental skill checks, and can make up to 100 logical decisions within your Essence Vault circuit per round. You have telepathy and mindsight within your Essence Vault's bubble (both inside and out).

Your Essence Vault has a bubble which extends outward in realspace from the location of your closed semi-space, to a radius based on your normal size (5 feet if you are Medium or smaller, 10 feet if you are Large, 15 feet if you are Huge, etc.). Your Convergence (farseer) ability applies within this bubble, and extends to the normal range of your vision (rather than being limited to 10 feet beyond the edge of the bubble). The only visual manifestation of your existence is the illusion of yourself within the bubble. This illusion functions exactly as if you were incorporeal at all times, as per your Minor Virtuality ability, except that all equipment you have on your physical body inside the space is incorporeal with you. If you used IMCH388 in the preparation of your illusion, you can spend uses of your Minor Virtuality ability to instead become fully corporeal for 1 minute.

Unlike other semi-spaces, you can move the location of your Essence Vault (and its associated bubble) with the integrated Simple Orthogonal Engine. It moves with a fly speed equal to your land speed, with perfect maneuverability. Your physical body becomes the fuel source for the circuit, and you need no outside source of puissance to run your engine or the other principles which make up your Vault. If you know HEUR302, you can prepare principles that you know in the physical world, as normal for a gramarist.

Your mind is forever divorced from your body, and can never return to it. However, you may change your equipment by opening your Essence Vault (a very dangerous proposition, since you can be destroyed or crippled if elements of your circuit are removed or destroyed) and adding or removing items from your body.

If your circuit is destroyed, or if your former body within it is destroyed (removing the power source), you die; if resurrected, you return to your original state (pre-transcendance), but can transcend again by building a new Essence Vault.

[Silva Stormrage]

A question on Geoc 374, for Swamps Haunted Bog feature it says that it can turn a soul into anitu dust. Where exactly is that found? I couldn't find that in BoVD.

[Arcanist]

True. It takes enough time to create truly amazing Principles. Let's not add in more time for item creation as well :smalltongue: Hell, I'd like to see for some methods to reduce time without having to hire an Alchemister (I'm experimenting with names...)

Question:

Is it possible to use a Ballistic Engine to fire an Orthogonal and have it gain the Push used from the Ballistic Engine to send it father and faster then normal? In essence, can you spring board one engine from another

Ballistic Engine #1 fires Orthogonal Engine #1 at 400 push, and then Orthogonal Engine #1 triggers to shoot of it's own Push generating an additional 100 Push making it 500 Push.

Unanswered Question.

2nd Question: Is it possible to create any sort of element from the periodic table? How would ionization of Sunmetal (Radiation) work to create varying affects from Radiomantic material? I know from experience that Radiation can help as much as it can hurt (Aunt has Cancer), so maybe Radiation created from a Radiomatic material might yield the same effects? :smallsmile:

[QuidEst]

Unanswered Question.

2nd Question: Is it possible to create any sort of element from the periodic table? How would ionization of Sunmetal (Radiation) work to create varying affects from Radiomantic material? I know from experience that Radiation can help as much as it can hurt (Aunt has Cancer), so maybe Radiation created from a Radiomatic material might yield the same effects? :smallsmile:

Well, Alchemetry is a diplomatic check to persuade the spirits of the substance to do what you want. Any similarities to real chemistry and nuclear engineering are limited. If you can come up with a way to use negative levels to cure somebody, then that's something that works. Something like a low HD parasite, for instance. If tumors are treated as having their own separate HD, then you could kill them off that way. There's a risk of permanent negative levels in the process, but that's a little like real-life radiation treatment.

[sirpercival]

Well, Alchemetry is a diplomatic check to persuade the spirits of the substance to do what you want. Any similarities to real chemistry and nuclear engineering are limited. If you can come up with a way to use negative levels to cure somebody, then that's something that works. Something like a low HD parasite, for instance. If tumors are treated as having their own separate HD, then you could kill them off that way. There's a risk of permanent negative levels in the process, but that's a little like real-life radiation treatment.

But... then you end up with tumors which rise as Wights. This seems like a horrendous idea.

[sreservoir]

But... then you end up with tumors which rise as Wights. This seems like a horrendous idea.

medium-sized, wights, even, about the height and weight of a human, which look like a weird and twisted reflection of the forms they had in life. they speak common.

[Arcanist]

medium-sized, wights, even, about the height and weight of a human, which look like a weird and twisted reflection of the forms they had in life. they speak common.

Eh... I guess I'm better off waiting for the ALCH/BIOY Gramarie prestige class and hoping that my prayers get answered for Medical applications of Gramarie :smallsigh:

[Morcleon]

Eh... I guess I'm better off waiting for the ALCH/BIOY Gramarie prestige class and hoping that my prayers get answered for Medical applications of Gramarie :smallsigh:

Beyond silverOuts of remove disease, neutralize poison, mass heal, greater restoration, psychic chirurgery, and true resurrection? :smalltongue::smallwink:

[Arcanist]

Beyond silverOuts of remove disease, neutralize poison, mass heal, greater restoration, psychic chirurgery, and true resurrection? :smalltongue::smallwink:

To me, that isn't using any form of Science to cure a disease. By relying on SilverOuts to replicate spells you are effectively playing as an Artificer and not as a Gramarist. No real wit towards playing just "I cast a spell and my problems are gone" :smallannoyed:

To me a Gramarist should be thinking outside the norm of D&D. In a world where they have swords and sorcery, the Gramarist is left only with his wits, an hour and a little bit of ebbs. (I'd make a gun personally... Just saying... :smalltongue:)

[sirpercival]

To me, that isn't using any form of Science to cure a disease. By relying on SilverOuts to replicate spells you are effectively playing as an Artificer and not as a Gramarist. No real wit towards playing just "I cast a spell and my problems are gone" :smallannoyed:

To me a Gramarist should be thinking outside the norm of D&D. In a world where they have swords and sorcery, the Gramarist is left only with his wits, an hour and a little bit of ebbs. (I'd make a gun personally... Just saying... :smalltongue:)

Healing pools?

[Arcanist]

Healing pools?

WELL THIS DOESN'T MAKE ME FEEL LIKE AN AWKWARD EYED PONY >_>;;

[General Patton]

WELL THIS DOESN'T MAKE ME FEEL LIKE AN AWKWARD EYED PONY >_>;;

Derpy?

In other news, I love the new content.

[QuidEst]

But... then you end up with tumors which rise as Wights. This seems like a horrendous idea.

What!? *checks rules* Whoa. I thought that was just from specific negative level sources. Scratch that idea. Turning somebody's tumor into a wight is definitely a Bad Idea. Also, Sunmetal bomb just got 33.7 times scarier. You create a city of the undead. (Well, unless you flub the d10, and even then, you kill a lot of commoners.)

[Hanuman]

Hi kellus, would be neat to see an alchemical based alchemetrics PrC.

One that actually knows alchemy ;p

In fact, why has an Alchemy skill separate from craft not been made?

Alchemy + Engineering = Alchemetrics

[radmelon]

I think alchemy was seperate from craft in 3.0, but was merged in the update.

[Qwertystop]

Honestly, Craft(Alchemy) has enough rules of its own and its own item category. It might as well be a separate skill, I don't think you can even use standard Craft tools for it.

[Morcleon]

Honestly, Craft(Alchemy) has enough rules of its own and its own item category. It might as well be a separate skill, I don't think you can even use standard Craft tools for it.

You can always get a masterwork tool (+2) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) for any skill. :smallwink:

[Qwertystop]

You can always get a masterwork tool (+2) for any skill. :smallwink:

Yes, but there are specific listings for certain Crafts, and "Artisan's Tools", the generic Craft set for having sufficient tools (also available in masterwork), is separate from "Alchemist's Lab" (again, masterwork is available).

[Morcleon]

Yes, but there are specific listings for certain Crafts, and "Artisan's Tools", the generic Craft set for having sufficient tools (also available in masterwork), is separate from "Alchemist's Lab" (again, masterwork is available).

The fact that Craft (alchemy) always seems to be different is likely a holdover from previous editions. Most campaigns I'm in pretty much let you have masterwork tools if you can justify them IC.

[Hanuman]

This is what you're looking for.


Alchemist’s lab 500 gp 40 lb.

An alchemist’s lab always has the perfect tool for making alchemical items, so it provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks. It has no bearing on the costs related to the Craft (alchemy) skill. Without this lab, a character with the Craft (alchemy) skill is assumed to have enough tools to use the skill but not enough to get the +2 bonus that the lab provides.


Alchemist's Kit 25 gp 5 lbs. CRB

An alchemist with an alchemist’s kit is assumed to have all the material components needed for his extracts, mutagens, and bombs, except for those components that have a specific cost. An Alchemist’s kit provides no bonuses on Craft (alchemy) checks.

[Arcanist]

This is what you're looking for.



This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.

I believe we are discussing the use of this a usable feature.

[Hanuman]

From my perspective alchemetrics is about convincing matter to be different matter, you could probably use intimidate to a similar degree.

The most flavorful fluff to expand upon that people will get is Full Metal Alchemist, or the EE minecraft mod which works similarly.

Something not covered is awareness in a lot of these cases, how do you know what materials are what, how do you find this out, how do you know what sunmetal is or even find that out.

Communicating with the elemental spirits is a simple answer by sensing what things are passively, eventually turning into Neo and seeing the world as little bits of alchemetrical code, another way is experimenting a little bit at a time but who has the time to do that when you're saving the world? Tough thing to balance, probably better to go with a "I TALK TO MATTER" thing.

Hell you could probably work in an object reading feature in there too à la gather informationy-diplomacy.

[Zireael]

I must say the idea is brilliant, even though I haven't had time to read through 32 pages of the thread.

[Gideon Falcon]

So, is the Apogineer going to have a city-based discovery for reference, as inappropriate as it would be fluff-wise?

[Arcanist]

Ladies and Gentlemen of all ages (and I mean ALL ages), I present you, The Chrononaut (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8588.0) :smallamused:

Hopefully, you will enjoy it :smallredface:

[Milo v3]

Ladies and Gentlemen of all ages (and I mean ALL ages), I present you, The Chrononaut (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8588.0) :smallamused:

Hopefully, you will enjoy it :smallredface:

Could you also post it here? For those who cannot view minmaxboards.

[Arcanist]

Could you also post it here? For those who cannot view minmaxboards.

Gladly :smallsmile:



The Chrononaut

"Time is money... Actually Time is the non-spatial continuum in which events occur linearly usually in the direction of increasing entropy"

http://th08.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2012/322/8/d/time_traveler_for_ifx_by_jessibeans-d5lfq6d.jpg
image credit JessiBeans (http://jessibeans.deviantart.com/) of deviantart.com

The Chrononaut are explorers first and foremost who explore not just singular locations in the multiverse, but multiple moments in that same multiverse. Most people spend their entire lives trying to find a Chrononaut only to never encounter one, however on rare occasions they select a very lucky person to travel with them throughout time and space.

Requirements: To become a Chrononaut you must meet all of the following requirements.
Gramarie: Any 2 YGGD & 2 ELDK Principles
Skills: Concentration 13 ranks, Forgery 13 ranks
Specialization: Must be specialized in Yggdratecture or Eldrikinetics

Hit Die: d4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifer

Class Skills: A Chrononaut's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (the Planes) (Int), Knowledge (psionics) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

The Chrononaut
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Principles

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Yggdrakinetic Applications, Journey (To, but not from)|+0|

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Journey (From, but not to), ETT (Full-Round action)|+1|

3rd|
+1|
+3|
+1|
+3|Journey (Stasis), ETT (Standard Action)|+2|

4th|
+2|
+4|
+1|
+4|Journey (Anywhere in between), ETT (Move action), Doctorate principles|+3|

5th|
+2|
+4|
+1|
+4|Journey (Dawn of Time), ETT (Immediate action), Temporal Casualty|+4|[/table]

All of the following are class features of the Chrononaut.

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: As a Chrononaut, you gain no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

Yggdrakinetic Application: A Chononaut specializes in the transportation of objects and people across time and space, through the combined applications of Yggdratecture Semi-spaces and Eldrikinetic Engines. Upon entering this prestige class you are treated as if you specialized in both Yggdratecture and Eldrikinetics disciplines, can select specialist and doctorate level principles from either of these disciplines. In addition to this, at 1st, 3rd and 5th level you gain access to one bonus principle that must be spent on either an Eldrikinetic or Yggdratecture principle.

Journey (Su): A Chrononaut's particular research into Eldrikinetic Engines and Yggratecture Semi-space finally enlightens them to discover a cheap and effective method of travel to anywhere... or when...


At 1st level, you discover an interesting feature of Semi-Space. By applying a certain level of push to an object and sending it through a Semi-space you can generate enough energy to delay that objects arrival by a number of rounds equal to the amount of push generated from the object. This creates a Time Leaping Semi-Space. Objects can be delayed in arrival by 1 round for every 100 push. Living creatures may not enter a Time Leaping Semi-Space.
At 2nd level, you make a more significant change to your body allowing you to enter a Time Leaping Semi-Space, however now objects and yourself can be delayed by hours at the same rate. (1 hour per 100 push).[/li]
At 3rd level, you learn how to create a special kind of Semi-space that exist outside of time. You are treated as if you are in a Timeless plane while here. Time continues to move outside of the semi-space thereafter. 1 round of apparent time inside the Timeless Semi-Space is treated as 1 year on the tethered plane. A Timeless Semi-Space is an bound to a fixed point. It may also be moved around via the use of an Orthogonal Engine and the use of Polarcane Geometry to adjust it's directional motion. While you are inside this Timeless Semi-Space you may not prepare any Principles, also a Timeless Semi-Space may only be opened and closed by the creating Chrononaut and anyone else he/she designates.
At 4th level, you make an astounding discovery in the field of Yggdratecture and Eldrikinetic temporal applications gaining a mastery over 4th dimensional perception. You become able to travel along the fine lines of the Time-Space continuum allowing you to reverse the effects of a Timeless Semi-Space. You may now adjust a Timeless Semi-space or a Time Leaping Semi-Space to reverse the flow of time around the plane that it is tethered to at the same rate as moving forward. You may not, however travel to the beginning of time. Any attempt to do so results in the Timeless Semi-Space cycling back to the Chrononauts original time (that is the following round after they first stepped into their Timeless Semi-Space). In addition to this, by cleaver application of a Two-Part Engine (Orthogonal-Submerging) and the use of the subjective gravity of Polarcane Geometry you can produce a much more faster moving Timeless Semi-Space. In addition to this you may also send a Timeless Semi-Space through a Time Leaping Semi-Space for a more accurate fix on what time you would be traveling to. In effect you can also choose the year, day, hour and minute of your destination.
At 5th level, No section of time is forbidden to you. Stepping into your Timeless Semi-Space allows you to choose anywhere and when you'd like to travel to by simply thinking of that time and that place. The Timeless Semi-Space creates an Incongruous Pathway to the desired location. In addition to this you are granted access to the Dawn of Time and become able to access the raw elements of time.

Time Paradoxes
Traveling through time often has may perils as even the tiniest event can drastically change an entire timeline, so to adjust for that the Chrononauts Time Leaping Semi-Space and Timeless Semi-space are equipped with a small device called a Paradox Machine. A Paradox Machine allows the Chrononaut to enter any particular section of time and space without causing to much of an effect. In essence it tethers the Chrononaut to a specific section of reality, more specifically their native section of reality allowing them to perform as much change as they'd like without any real consequences to their timeline. The traveling of Chrononauts are what cause and create many alternate realities. It is impossible to remove or destroy a Paradox Machine from a Timeless Semi-Space as well as a Time-Leaping Semi-Space.

ETT (Emergency Temporal Teleport) (Su): Time Traveling is dangerous work and adventuring while time traveling is even more dangerous (for obvious reasons), thus at 2nd level you develop a technique that allows you to escape a situation that would prove too lethal for you to endure. Once per day of subjective time (24 hours for you) you may eject yourself from a foreign timeline to your original timeline (that is the time you originate from before you traveled). At 2nd level you may perform this as a Full-Round Action, at 3rd level this becomes a Standard Action, at 4th this becomes a Move Action and finally at 5th level this becomes an Immediate Action.

Temporal Causality (Ex): By using the power of the Timeless Semi-Space in conjuncture with the Time Leaping Semi-Space you can travel to the precise moment that Time began. Being exposed to the Cosmic effects of raw Time and endless potential drastically changes you. You cease to age and become immune to any and all penalties of aging, however you still continue to gain benefits for a high age category for your race. When a Chrononaut dies he has the option to make a new character with a few restrictions. First, the newly made character has the exact same levels, skills, ability scores and race as the previous character, although details such as height, weight and even gender do not have to be constant and secondly the Chrononaut is fatigued and cannot perform this again until he gets 8 hours of subjective rest.

[Milo v3]

After that, my first instinct is to figure out how to make a sonic screw driver with Gramarie.

[radmelon]

After that, my first instinct is to figure out how to make a sonic screw driver with Gramarie.

Diddle that, I'm making a biollurgic Dalek!

[Milo v3]

Diddle that, I'm making a biollurgic Dalek!

Daleks are already in D&D, Clockwork Horrors.

[radmelon]

Daleks are already in D&D, Clockwork Horrors.

Dang it, I already knew that :smallredface:. In that case, I use imachination to make the Silence. Or something. I really can't remember...

[Arcanist]

Daleks are already in D&D, Clockwork Horrors.

He's right you know :smalltongue: I do feel bad considering one time I sicked 5 Adamantine Clockwork Horrors (Fluff be damned!) on my players having them scream "EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!!" as loud as possible :smalltongue:

On a side note: I'm not sure Gramarie can be used to make a Sonic Screwdriver... Of course this is assuming that a Single SilverOut can only have 1 spell in it :smalltongue:

EDIT: I want to make Cybermen (Post-Revamp) out of Biollurgy, but it's hard to make it so that they can only use Gramarie to reproduce :smallfrown:

[radmelon]

The Sonic Screwdriver uses prestidigitation heightened to 9th level. That's what I say.

[Durazno]

I always thought that the Beholders were more like Daleks. You know, eyestalks, death rays, extreme xenophobia, prone to genetic meddling and grotesquely enslaving "lesser" species...

[Gideon Falcon]

So, I've got an idea for an Ozodrin Grammarist PrC, but I don't have everything figured out. So far, the main issue is having an ability for each of the gramaric disciplines. This is what I've got figured out so far:

ALCH: Probably some sort of ability to count your natural weapons as various special materials.

ARCD: I'm thinking some sort of flesh augment that uses filtering flesh as an input transformer, and possibly have some way of incorporating an output.

BIOY: One possibility is having a way to turn puissance into temporary Form Points, but it would be difficult to keep it from spiralling out of control. Applying Biollurgy principles to spawn might work, as might putting features onto chassis.

ELDK: This would most likely involve using puissance to fuel Strange Movement, and/or vice versa.

GEOC: This would either involve becoming a geoccult pole yourself or having poles in your stomachs.

HEUR: This is the easiest one, just having spawn become circuit elements.

IMCH: This is probably the second hardest one. Phantasm illusions and/or fear effects would probably be the most appropriate.

KALD: This is the real hard one. All I can think of is some sort of bonus to filtering flesh.

YGGD: Probably just expand the size of your stomachs, and connect mouths to semi-spaces.

The capstone would grant the Aberrant Construct subtype from chumplump's half-wrought horror monster class. Most of the formatting will borrow from Sir Percival's Ayuscientist.

[Necroticplague]

So, I've got an idea for an Ozodrin Grammarist PrC, but I don't have everything figured out. So far, the main issue is having an ability for each of the gramaric disciplines. This is what I've got figured out so far:

ALCH: Probably some sort of ability to count your natural weapons as various special materials.

ARCD: I'm thinking some sort of flesh augment that uses filtering flesh as an input transformer, and possibly have some way of incorporating an output.

BIOY: One possibility is having a way to turn puissance into temporary Form Points, but it would be difficult to keep it from spiralling out of control. Applying Biollurgy principles to spawn might work, as might putting features onto chassis.

ELDK: This would most likely involve using puissance to fuel Strange Movement, and/or vice versa.

GEOC: This would either involve becoming a geoccult pole yourself or having poles in your stomachs.

HEUR: This is the easiest one, just having spawn become circuit elements.

IMCH: This is probably the second hardest one. Phantasm illusions and/or fear effects would probably be the most appropriate.

KALD: This is the real hard one. All I can think of is some sort of bonus to filtering flesh.

YGGD: Probably just expand the size of your stomachs, and connect mouths to semi-spaces.

The capstone would grant the Aberrant Construct subtype from chumplump's half-wrought horror monster class. Most of the formatting will borrow from Sir Percival's Ayuscientist.
Are you looking for independent features, or would unlocking new features work as well?

Just some possible suggestions on my own on this front:

KALD:
Chromatic Flesh: gain benefit related to a prepared filter (i.e, a red filter makes you immune/resistant to cold and fire, an orange filter makes you immune/resistant to inhaled poisons and other gas-based effects (nauseous cloud, thick fog). Each flesh you have may only have one filter applied to it, and you may only benefit from one chromatic flesh at a time (however, if you have multiple chromatic fleshes of different types, you can switch between them as a swift action).

IMCH:
Dual-Natured Illusions:Your dabbling in how exactly the mind can be effected by things unreal makes viewing you or you illusions a dangerous prospect. You gain the benefits of the Live My Nightmare feat, and any of your illusions created by an IMCH principal also trigger this effect. In addition, all illusions created by your IMCH principles are treated as being depictions of yourself, regardless of what they actually are. When you switch to your true nature, anyone who fails their will save against fear is then affected as if by an illusion spell of the phantasm subschool of no higher than 1/2 your ECL of your choice (chosen at time of manifesting true nature, everyone who fails save at that time is effected by the same spell).

GEOC:
My Domain is my Body: While within an bubble created by a geooccult pole you created, you may place features on terrain features created by you. The features for the most part are as you. They share your statistics, except for the fact that they are the size of the feature instead of your size (for features that don't have listed sizes, such as eyes and special eyes, assume they are Fine).You maintain your connection to your features placed in this manner, so your action is still are used to make them work, and you can still sense through features that provide senses (note:all features have a sense of touch as a minimum). You still use the features perfectly fine, regardless of distance (for example, you could make a full-round attack where you spit using the mouth on your body, shoot quills using a patch of spikes 30 ft away, while having a tentacle 400 feet away grappling someone else). Features not on your own body that are grappling, or otherwise disabled, do not effect you, though the feature is effected. However, you do take any HP damage inflicted upon your features (unless it is a feature that has its own pool of HP, like probes, spawn, or beasts). Skins do not exists on their own, they are applied to an object or placed feature, which then benefits from the skin applied.
[holy tar, that one was longer than I intended it to be, was thinking of maybe a way to turn placed features into terrain features, but that seemed like a bit much]

ARCD:
Pussiant Body:You may form skins with the Voltaic Flesh augment
Voltaic Flesh: Additional Cost ???
Require ???: A flesh with this augment may hold a number of ebbs equal to your CHA mod. This augmet may only be applied to a skin once. Any affects of the flesh that would produce nourishment (e.x., Energy Consuming Flesh, Magic Eating Flesh) may instead at you option produce one ebb per pound of food/gallon of water the nourishment is considered. If the flesh is also a Regenerative flesh, you may use one ebb in place of a pound of food.You may use up one ebb to be considered to have consumed a pound of food and drank a gallon of water for purposes of avoiding dehydration and starvation. Multiple Voltaic Flesh do stack when determining total capacity, but you cannot use up ebbs from more than one voltaic flesh in a round (you're free to absorb ebbs to multiple Voltaic Flesh in a round, however).

[Amechra]

The setting-building thread over on Minmaxboards is inaccessable, due to the site being down, so...

Once we're off talking about currency, there is the issue that, in this setting, there is going to be a massive underclass; seriously, a single Grammarist can, in a half hour, do more labor than, literally, a thousand people. It's the Industrial Revolution all over again... only considerably worse, since Grammarists can cover all unskilled labor. And there is never going to be a large enough demand for specialized labor to allow an entire population to sustain themselves on just that, without devaluing that labor to valuelessness.

In fact, let's step away from Eberron, and just look at what wide-spread Grammarie would result in, especially if access to it was limited by monetary access.

It would result in a world of crushing property, with a tiny middle class and an upper class that will pretty much always be on top. Occasionally, the large poor class will generate a Grammarist powerful enough to join the higher classes, or a skilled laborer, but other than that, the amount of class mobility that exists is almost nonexistent.

I can see the world being on the edge of revolution constantly, with almost constant bread-and-circuses for the lower class; alternatively, and more bleakly, murder of the lower class wouldn't be illegal at all, since it would allow them to be raised as Zombies, which are about as useful labor-wise, and don't need to be fed, don't need vacations and don't sleep.

I can see religion just turning into the opiate of the masses; hell, it would probably boil down to worshiping the very Grammarie that rendered them obsolete. Their very worship would fuel PlatinumIn transformers, fueling godless machines with the faith of the poor. In fact, that would probably be the only reason to keep the poor around, at least until someone thinks of designing Sentient Chassis with the Instinct to sincerely believe in <insert name of religion>, which I'm pretty sure can be done within the rules.

There would be a momentary brightness in the form of adventurers (being a potent warrior or having Psionics is an excellent way to level the playing field), but if they try to equalize the situation in the world, they would run into the upper class, who would probably annihilate them for daring to touch their exalted station. Considering the kind of weaponry that Grammarie can produce, who cares if you can read minds if they can just shove you in a Cursed Lead cell and then shoot you.

The rich would be effectively immortal, only dying from severe injury, and would have homes that would probably have rooms in several cities and other such luxuries. Unchallenged, they would probably wage war for fun.

A world with advanced Grammarie is pretty much one of the bleakest places I can imagine.

I know that you'd argue that this wouldn't happen, but, when you get down to it, power usually calls more powerfully than morality does, and it's just more efficient this way.

[General Patton]

I think an easy resolution to that would be a good-aligned/holy prestige class for grammarie. Right now, everything is neutral or kind of shady (Contractor). Something extra potent for the righteous would help to produce a decent post-scarcity society.

[Amechra]

The thing is that having Good-based PrCs wouldn't address the basic reasons for the class distinctions I talked about.

Which is that the entire lower class is completely obsolete; there's no job that can be done by the lower class that couldn't be done better by a custom creature designed through Biollurgy, or by a Deadsnow Zombie (unless you can't just design a creature whose purpose is to worship things to fuel PlatinumIns...) Yes, this includes prostitution. And all of the other ways that lower classes have tended to use to support themselves with.

As long as Spectroconstruction exists, there are going to be millions without jobs.

Sure, there are going to be bleeding-heart people that would clothe and feed the poor, but even in the best case scenario, the rich and the poor would be lying around doing almost nothing, since the poor in a Grammaric society aren't useful for anything except for being a group to feel pity for.

[radmelon]

Perhaps spectroconstruction needs to be turned down or something, because the only things I can think of the lower classes being used for are:

a)Matrix-eque ebb sources,
b)raw materials,
c)prospective gramarists.

[Draken]

The lower classes could also provide manpower for extended projects that can't feasibly be accelerated, where any respectable gramarist would probably prefer to not be assed to get off his workshop/couch/dinning table/bed/opium den on a daily or bihourly basis to setup spectroconstruction, such as agriculture and pecuary.

And no, agriculture and pecuary would most likely not die in the name of efficiency because yay, SilverOuts of Create Food. Humans are petty, and if they aren't, then your initial bleak assumption doesn't work either. Humans are petty, lazy and greedy and we like the good things of life.

Getting off your behind every twice an hour to get some crappy off-project running and eating flavored gruel on a daily basis directly clash with two of these characteristics I listed above.

While the world created by gramarie is, indeed, quite bleak, odds are it wouldn't involve the majority of the population being reduced to cattle. Despite common game system assumtions, classed individuals more often than not don't spontaneously rise from the dirty masses, they are trained in some fashion.

So what would happen, more likely than not, is that the gramaric (and mystic, and etc) upper class would setup a system to take care of the unwashed masses, certainly involving E.I.s to deal with them, sort them, shelter them, educate them, identify the ones who can become something and send the rest to work the same miserable little jobs they would have done in a gramarie-less world.They will grow food and brew drinks (not for themselves, but for the nearest feudal lord or whatever ruling system crops up, but more likely than not some sort of urban feudalism). They will sew clothes (for themselves), they would wash their slums, they would serve in the homes of the rich, they would turn to prostitution or crime or whatever. Overall, it would look like your average dark ages dunghole.

Just... You know... surrounding a shining city built on magic, and probably with a better education system mantained mostly by magical robots (simply because any education system beats no education system).

Really. Biollurgy can't create anything that is actually better at any given job, crft or even whoring out than a mildly trained humanoid (professions and crafts here, chassis never get positive mods to int, wis or cha), and the gramarists don't even have to do the training themselves, they can set up the trainers and just keep a close enough eye on them to avoid a machine revolution or whatever.

In fact, since gramarie never relies on basic crafts and professions, the gramaric world would likely still have use for men and women with those skills. You have better things to do than learn how to sew or how to cook or how to do a hundred other things that are frankly too tiny to waste Spectoconstruction on and too much of a hassle to stop building the wonders of magitechnology for.

That needs emphasis, of course.

Spectoconstruction lasts all of half a hour. And there is a lot than can't be done in half a hour, no matter how much manpower you drop on it.

But, then again. It is entirelly too likely that Spectoconstruction does too much for too little. It demands one Knowledge skill to... Nulify the need for pretty much all Crafts? Heck, not even the highest level magic can do that. True Creation (emphasis, of a different type) still requires a craft check for complex things.

But really, it is more a case of the rich get richer and the poor get mildly less poor, but not really any better overall. Not a case of the rich get richer and the poor are now things, as opposed to just opressed and miserable.

[Necroticplague]

Really. Biollurgy can't create anything that is actually better at any given job, craft or even whoring out than a mildly trained humanoid (professions and crafts here, chassis never get positive mods to int, wis or cha), and the gramarists don't even have to do the training themselves, they can set up the trainers and just keep a close enough eye on them to avoid a machine revolution or whatever.

Except for the fact that while the chassis themselves can't get positive mods, EIs can. And the chassis can be made to simply act as "hands" of the vast EI "brain." In fact, and EI with a small amount of bodies would be more efficient than the same amount of humans working because 1: the bodies can be specially modified for the purpose, and 2:no communication is needed, since its all one mind.

[Omnicrat]

I'm pretty sure I've pointed this out before, though maybe that was just in a campaign specific thread. A party of 4 (minimum) with the right specializations and PrC abilities can create a self-replicating infinity growing utopia machine. Granted, for the full effect, you need to hit level 17 minimum, but its very doable. Synopisi: Self-replicating Heuristic-intelligence EIed Chassis transformers for all medical, food, communication, and entertainment needs; carmot foundries controlled by EIs using wall of iron spellouts as the source matter; personal demiplanes for habitation (now with a city biome, I guess); a massive power plant demiplane controled by an EI; have it all done by some hand-crafted LG EI Gramarists given very specific reproduction programing so that all EIs are LG and will not in any way harm the system (clearly worded better).


The thing is that having Good-based PrCs wouldn't address the basic reasons for the class distinctions I talked about.

Which is that the entire lower class is completely obsolete; there's no job that can be done by the lower class that couldn't be done better by a custom creature designed through Biollurgy, or by a Deadsnow Zombie (unless you can't just design a creature whose purpose is to worship things to fuel PlatinumIns...) Yes, this includes prostitution. And all of the other ways that lower classes have tended to use to support themselves with.

As long as Spectroconstruction exists, there are going to be millions without jobs.

Sure, there are going to be bleeding-heart people that would clothe and feed the poor, but even in the best case scenario, the rich and the poor would be lying around doing almost nothing, since the poor in a Grammaric society aren't useful for anything except for being a group to feel pity for.

Philosophy and self discovery. Art. Debate.

Even if 99,999 out of 100,000 in my system sit around all day doing nothing but playing videogame analogues and watching the youtube analogue, that still lets the one do anything they desire. From that great things will come. Also, my system is classes (socio-economically).


The lower classes could also provide manpower for extended projects that can't feasibly be accelerated, where any respectable gramarist would probably prefer to not be assed to get off his workshop/couch/dinning table/bed/opium den on a daily or bihourly basis to setup spectroconstruction, such as agriculture and pecuary.

And no, agriculture and pecuary would most likely not die in the name of efficiency because yay, SilverOuts of Create Food. Humans are petty, and if they aren't, then your initial bleak assumption doesn't work either. Humans are petty, lazy and greedy and we like the good things of life.

Getting off your behind every twice an hour to get some crappy off-project running and eating flavored gruel on a daily basis directly clash with two of these characteristics I listed above.

While the world created by gramarie is, indeed, quite bleak, odds are it wouldn't involve the majority of the population being reduced to cattle. Despite common game system assumtions, classed individuals more often than not don't spontaneously rise from the dirty masses, they are trained in some fashion.

So what would happen, more likely than not, is that the gramaric (and mystic, and etc) upper class would setup a system to take care of the unwashed masses, certainly involving E.I.s to deal with them, sort them, shelter them, educate them, identify the ones who can become something and send the rest to work the same miserable little jobs they would have done in a gramarie-less world.They will grow food and brew drinks (not for themselves, but for the nearest feudal lord or whatever ruling system crops up, but more likely than not some sort of urban feudalism). They will sew clothes (for themselves), they would wash their slums, they would serve in the homes of the rich, they would turn to prostitution or crime or whatever. Overall, it would look like your average dark ages dunghole.

Just... You know... surrounding a shining city built on magic, and probably with a better education system mantained mostly by magical robots (simply because any education system beats no education system).

Really. Biollurgy can't create anything that is actually better at any given job, crft or even whoring out than a mildly trained humanoid (professions and crafts here, chassis never get positive mods to int, wis or cha), and the gramarists don't even have to do the training themselves, they can set up the trainers and just keep a close enough eye on them to avoid a machine revolution or whatever.

In fact, since gramarie never relies on basic crafts and professions, the gramaric world would likely still have use for men and women with those skills. You have better things to do than learn how to sew or how to cook or how to do a hundred other things that are frankly too tiny to waste Spectoconstruction on and too much of a hassle to stop building the wonders of magitechnology for.

That needs emphasis, of course.

Spectoconstruction lasts all of half a hour. And there is a lot than can't be done in half a hour, no matter how much manpower you drop on it.

But, then again. It is entirelly too likely that Spectoconstruction does too much for too little. It demands one Knowledge skill to... Nulify the need for pretty much all Crafts? Heck, not even the highest level magic can do that. True Creation (emphasis, of a different type) still requires a craft check for complex things.

But really, it is more a case of the rich get richer and the poor get mildly less poor, but not really any better overall. Not a case of the rich get richer and the poor are now things, as opposed to just opressed and miserable.

1) Silverouts can also give you Feast of Champions for 3 meals a day. Flavored gruel is a first level trick. And, if you don't want such a high ebb cost, your telling me you can't make a spell around (spell) level 4 (maybe 5) equal to a food replicator?

2) My system for why its not so bleak.

[Omnicrat]

doublepost

[Draken]

Except for the fact that while the chassis themselves can't get positive mods, EIs can. And the chassis can be made to simply act as "hands" of the vast EI "brain." In fact, and EI with a small amount of bodies would be more efficient than the same amount of humans working because 1: the bodies can be specially modified for the purpose, and 2:no communication is needed, since its all one mind.

Fair, but the central point stands.

Why bother.

Seriously. Past the point of setting E.I. overseers, all else is driven by ADHD. And xenoalchemy grafts can't really make the chassises (or whatever the plural is) particularly better than human(oid)s at anything other than fighting and hauling cargo, so that is an added layer of needless hassle.

It is kind of sad that none of the arguments in this discussion appeal to basic human decency. And I'm not even talking about being good aligned, I am talking about not being Psychotic Evil. :smalltongue:

Because even standard Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic Evil would probably get some kicks out of the opressive state without going out of its way to make human resources more literal than it needs to be.

[Omnicrat]

It is kind of sad that none of the arguments in this discussion appeal to basic human decency. And I'm not even talking about being good aligned, I am talking about not being Psychotic Evil. :smalltongue:

Mine system does that. I mean, most evil people want what is best for them, and what is better than a personal demiplane and all the luxury you could ever want? In fact, I came up with that system for an evil character. He was going to have people worship him till he became a god, then kill all the other gods (with science!). Saddly, this game was not to be, so I took out the limitation to Followers of Ycar, removed the Big Brother telescreen aspect, and its distopia to utopia!

[Necroticplague]

Why bother.

Easy, more efficient, cheaper labor is highly advantageous to whoever it belongs to. Just like how in real life, during industrial revolutions, massive amount of people loose their jobs because machines can do it better, or at least just as well, but for less, and you don't have to worry about them getting sick, not as likely to break, and can be fixed quicker (plus, machines don't have emotional crises, strike, come to work drunk,or realize how much their job bites). Machines in real life don't have as many advantages as what could be gained with grammary. And they STILL manage to edge out a whole ton of unskilled labor. And this system is better as edging out unskilled, and the EIs mean you can edge out skilled labor as well. It takes time and money to set up, but so do machines in real life, one of the big reasons they haven't completely edged out unskilled labor.

[Amechra]

I was basing my entire idea off the fact that, at least in our world, we could easily feed everyone, in fact we could feed the entire world populace, clothe them, give them clean water, give them access to adequate medical care...

We just don't bother.

If you notice, near the top of my post, I said that this is assuming that access to Grammarie (and Grammarie's outputs) is restricted monetarily. If not, sure, have your utopia.

But remember that LG doesn't mean "bleeding heart, with heart full of charity." And people who get to 17th level tend not to be, if you go by RAW (you get experience by killing things. Unless those "things" were all unintelligent undead or constructs, you're a mass murderer, meaning any Zeitgeist that you set up is going to tag you as a criminal. Now, story based XP on the other hand...)

[Arcanist]

Spoiler'd due to length
=>Wonderful/Nightmarish World of Gramarie

The setting-building thread over on Minmaxboards is inaccessable, due to the site being down, so...

:smallfrown:


Once we're off talking about currency, there is the issue that, in this setting, there is going to be a massive underclass; seriously, a single Grammarist can, in a half hour, do more labor than, literally, a thousand people. It's the Industrial Revolution all over again... only considerably worse, since Grammarists can cover all unskilled labor. And there is never going to be a large enough demand for specialized labor to allow an entire population to sustain themselves on just that, without devaluing that labor to valuelessness.

Did you see the post I made about not using physical labor for currency or "power"? I offered the alternative of using materials that cannot be replicated by gramarie. The Material I proposed was Adamantine as a base which looks quite different from Platinum, Gold, Silver and Copper. I was going to suggest using a system based around Starmetal, Adamantine, Electum and ... Something else :smallconfused:


In fact, let's step away from Eberron, and just look at what wide-spread Grammarie would result in, especially if access to it was limited by monetary access.

Gladly :smallsmile:


It would result in a world of crushing property, with a tiny middle class and an upper class that will pretty much always be on top. Occasionally, the large poor class will generate a Grammarist powerful enough to join the higher classes, or a skilled laborer, but other than that, the amount of class mobility that exists is almost nonexistent.

In a world of D&D, I don't exactly expect for any form of Middle Class to exist. In this world you are either Rich or Poor. Not the ideal way to live, but living none the less. You COULD hire the lower class as unskilled burly henchmen, but they can easily be replaced by 2-3 hours of work in a Lab... Unfortunately, if you are poor you have two options, live a life as a Commoner, or live a life as an Adventurer with hopes of one day gaining enough money to live a life of luxury.

Being poor isn't easy... It never really is in any setting (and even the real world).


I can see the world being on the edge of revolution constantly, with almost constant bread-and-circuses for the lower class; alternatively, and more bleakly, murder of the lower class wouldn't be illegal at all, since it would allow them to be raised as Zombies, which are about as useful labor-wise, and don't need to be fed, don't need vacations and don't sleep.

In this setting, not everyone can perform Gramarie, sure in schools you learn about the basics, but that doesn't precisely mean you know how to implement it all. It's like... Most people in School learn Physics, but not everyone becomes a Physicist... It's all about people actually putting in the work to do it :smallsmile:

Not quite the point, however :smallsmile: If everyone thinks to themself "Hey, If I pick up Gramarie, I can accomplish my goals in no time!", but the problem is most people realize "Oh crap... This is harder then I thought... Eh... I'll just go pick up that sword...", however if everyone is in fact capable of being a Gramarist, then we can have a little Class Warfare between the Rich and Poor as Kellus describes a Doctorate level campaign or "Doomsday Magitek"


The final level of tech is pretty extreme; I call it "doomsday magitek". This is a post-scarcity, post-everything setting. It's pretty nuts, but then, it only exists when the population is 14th level and higher, so yeah. Anything you can imagine is pretty much possible here, from building artificial intelligences to manage a demiplane, to flying island fortresses that jump between Planes and bring their citizenry with them in giant alternate-dimension prisons that they use to power their nuclear weapons. I reserve this level of tech for PCs that make it to that point and want to have some high-level fun, or for extraplanar societies that are explicitly supposed to be lightyears more advanced than the Material Plane. This is seriously crazy-town, and is just incredible as a toolkit for a clever DM. This is the stuff that you can use to actually show how the magical empire operates, while still having the rules to allow PCs to interact with it. This is why you're here.

But the interesting thing about this campaign is that it isn't exactly a perfect hit for a Doomsday campaign setting since more or less, they only have 8 known people in the world that were ever capable of creating Doctorate level Principles and half of them are dead, usually by there own mechanization (There is a 14th level Gramarist in the world, that went insane due an interaction with his own Imachination and seemingly lost touch with reality as a result so it's technically 3 Gramarist that aren't dead or insane) Each one possessing an advanced knowledge of there own particular specialization, but that is more to a specific setting really... I have no say in how someone else sets up there own campaign setting :smalltongue:

But lemme just add this here...


Basically, there are a lot of possibilities with this system, but that's not a bad thing. It's sort of an equalizer between the DM and the players. Players have access to abilities which can cause permanent, visible changes in the world, but the DM has all of the same tools to construct a setting around. However you use it, just remember to have fun!

So as long as you have a DM with enough wit to tell the players where the Line gets drawn, everything should be cool and magitek-y :smallsmile:


I can see religion just turning into the opiate of the masses; hell, it would probably boil down to worshiping the very Grammarie that rendered them obsolete. Their very worship would fuel PlatinumIn transformers, fueling godless machines with the faith of the poor. In fact, that would probably be the only reason to keep the poor around, at least until someone thinks of designing Sentient Chassis with the Instinct to sincerely believe in <insert name of religion>, which I'm pretty sure can be done within the rules.

On a side note, that is kind of your fault... JUST SAYIN :smalltongue: and in my setting, most religions are against the use of Platinum Transformers because it hampers the belief of a Worshiper... It's like "All my prayers are good for is making this ship go forward... If that is true... Why am I still praying?". People lose faith when they realize that there faith isn't helping them. There prayers are being ignored or unheard of and it is because of that god forsaken Platinum Transformer! They should destroy that Transformer... How dare it disconnect them from there deity! :smallfurious: and so you have a bunch of Clerics charging a Gramarist compound to kill the Gramarist inside actually and destroy the Transformer :smallbiggrin:

I'd just make the Chassis sentient and convince them to worship Gramarie in a church with a PlatinumIn on that note... JUST SAYING~ :smallredface:


There would be a momentary brightness in the form of adventurers (being a potent warrior or having Psionics is an excellent way to level the playing field), but if they try to equalize the situation in the world, they would run into the upper class, who would probably annihilate them for daring to touch their exalted station. Considering the kind of weaponry that Grammarie can produce, who cares if you can read minds if they can just shove you in a Cursed Lead cell and then shoot you.

Ah, here is where you get me... You see in my campaign, prisons are strictly made of Cursed Lead (and we're using transparency on that note). But now you have to ask yourself this: How does the Government get Superman into a cage of Kryptonite? :smalltongue:

I like it really... :smallsmile: Fighting a Gramarist is only a problem if they don't have constant access to all there stuff... SURE! They can have anything they need, but what are the odds of them having an item for every situation? It's like the Artificer really... IT CAN have every tool it would ever need, but from a practical point of view it really wouldn't :smalltongue:


The rich would be effectively immortal, only dying from severe injury, and would have homes that would probably have rooms in several cities and other such luxuries. Unchallenged, they would probably wage war for fun.

On a personal note: I would wage war for fun. :smalltongue:


Now, a super-important point to make here which I touched on in the renaissance section is that the level of the PCs is not the same as the tech level of the setting. Any particular player character is limited by both his particular field of study (remember that a lot of the coolest tricks are Specialist only) and his time that he can invest. As a DM you're totally in control of how much time the PCs have to invent, practice, and explore the options that this system allows. Just because a player character has doctorate level principles doesn't mean your setting will implode, because there's only so much that one PC working on his own can do with this system. Massive societal changes require groups of high-level gramarists working together to get huge stuff accomplished.

The Gramarist are challenged by the world in the form of Psionics. I remember having a discussion with Psyren on the idea of why Psionics was created? and why was it so prevolent with the Mindflayers? 4th Edition Fluff suggest that the Multiverse created Psionics to combat the creatures of the Far Realm and other Aberrations... But that is hardly the point... The point is, is that in addition to what another fine poster(s) mentioned. It's not all about Altruism and self-sacrifice for a world to become a Utopia, sometimes it's Apathy that creates a Utopia, sometimes it's it's just a desire to make the world 10 times awesome...

Not all Gramarist think like the Netherese :smalltongue:


A world with advanced Grammarie is pretty much one of the bleakest places I can imagine.

If the Gramarist in your world are all douchbags, then it is :smallsmile: Gramarie isn't absolute power, sure it is power and is therefore corruptible, but like Absolute power there isn't an absolute chance that it will absolutely corrupt. Kind of why I don't like that saying... It implies a 100% chance of a scenario occurring... BUT THAT IS JUST ME :smallbiggrin:


I know that you'd argue that this wouldn't happen, but, when you get down to it, power usually calls more powerfully than morality does, and it's just more efficient this way.

To be more correct, personal interest pulls more then power does. Power, is a means to an end, and your goals (whatever they may be) is that end.

It's like when people wish for money... It never makes sense to me really... why don't you wish to rule the world and cut out the middle man? :smallconfused:

Meh... :smalltongue:

EDIT: the United States by itself, produces enough food to end world hunger, if it REALLY tried, you know why we don't? Because a cure doesn't make any money... This makes me think about Star Trek... They have replicator based technology meaning that food and money have no value. All they do is travel for the advancement of there own species (the Humans). Once you get Replicator based technology people cease to have to worry about there next meal, life stops being about surviving to the next day and it allows people to start Thinking... Needless to say, the Villain in me finds the thought of everyone having the option of thought is frightening... What if they think about killing me? :smalleek: ... Just a thought really :smallsmile:

[Volthawk]

But remember that LG doesn't mean "bleeding heart, with heart full of charity." And people who get to 17th level tend not to be, if you go by RAW (you get experience by killing things. Unless those "things" were all unintelligent undead or constructs, you're a mass murderer, meaning any Zeitgeist that you set up is going to tag you as a criminal. Now, story based XP on the other hand...)

You get XP for overcoming challenges, not killing. It's just that setting things up so that it goes into 'you kill lots of things, you get lots of xp' is a pretty easy, standard way of doing things, but by no means is the only way of doing things.

[Omnicrat]

I was basing my entire idea off the fact that, at least in our world, we could easily feed everyone, in fact we could feed the entire world populace, clothe them, give them clean water, give them access to adequate medical care...

We just don't bother.

If you notice, near the top of my post, I said that this is assuming that access to Grammarie (and Grammarie's outputs) is restricted monetarily. If not, sure, have your utopia.

But remember that LG doesn't mean "bleeding heart, with heart full of charity." And people who get to 17th level tend not to be, if you go by RAW (you get experience by killing things. Unless those "things" were all unintelligent undead or constructs, you're a mass murderer, meaning any Zeitgeist that you set up is going to tag you as a criminal. Now, story based XP on the other hand...)

Ah. Missed that restriction in your first post. Then you still have a system a little better than Draken's version, because he's right about how the populace would be treated and how they would live their lives (basically) but missed a little bit. Communities would be set up with basic power generators (faith based, probably) and a few silverouts with prestidigitation, create food and water, cure light wounds, and a few more. No rebellious spirit when your belly is full and your wounds healed.

[Amechra]

And, if you really want to cut down on criminality, Zeitgeist+expanding the Heuristic Bubble to cover the SilverOuts...

Then let it be known that unpardoned criminals don't get food.

I'm reminded of a short story where, as punishment for a crime, a man is locked in a room where he gets food, water, and electricity, and is given 7 days to repent for his crime. He doesn't, and they leave him in there... without the food and water.

[QuidEst]

I'm reminded of a short story where, as punishment for a crime, a man is locked in a room where he gets food, water, and electricity, and is given 7 days to repent for his crime. He doesn't, and they leave him in there... without the food and water.

Ooh, nice… Personally, I've always liked sitting them down with a large pitcher of water and a cup. After casting that spell on them that makes it so they're dehydrated and drinking water doesn't do anything.

[Arcanist]

Then let it be known that unpardoned criminals don't get food.

Neat, nobody gets arrested for Organized crime or Corruption. :smallsmile:


I'm reminded of a short story where, as punishment for a crime, a man is locked in a room where he gets food, water, and electricity, and is given 7 days to repent for his crime. He doesn't, and they leave him in there... without the food and water.

I consider that torture. Eventually they'll say whatever you want if they want to survive :smallannoyed:

I really don't know how to accurately enforce a legal system in the campaign... mind helping me out? I have NO legal training so I really don't know much about our legal system beyond what my father (who is a Lawyer no less) taught me which is "It's not illegal if your not caught" :smallannoyed:

[Amechra]

Well, I left out the part in the short story where that was the guy's execution for mass murder.

So it's not like they did that for jaywalking.

And really, with a Zeitgeist and Bizzarchitecture, you can enforce laws by the simple expedient of "this city doesn't exist for non-law-abiding citizens."

[Draken]

Neat, nobody gets arrested for Organized crime or Corruption. :smallsmile:



I consider that torture. Eventually they'll say whatever you want if they want to survive :smallannoyed:

I really don't know how to accurately enforce a legal system in the campaign... mind helping me out? I have NO legal training so I really don't know much about our legal system beyond what my father (who is a Lawyer no less) taught me which is "It's not illegal if your not caught" :smallannoyed:

Well, it is. Illegality is not an absolute idea, it is a relative concept based and dependant on the existance of a norm in a legal system that prescribes the conduct. :smalltongue:

Enforcing a system of law is simple, you need merely factually verify when the norm is broken and apply the properly ascribed civil or penal sanctions. The effectiveness of said sanctions in curbing the illegal behaviour, however, is what is a complex endeavor. In our most esteemed and mundane real world, it is a troublesome matter, because it has been known for a considerable ammount of time that the penitentiary system does not work as intended, it has never worked as intended and it will never work as intended, and this is a fact that is not limited to any particular part of the world.

A magical world has better solutions, some stronger than others, some more invasive than others, none of them perfect. We have seen the most obvious and possibly least effective of these solutions in Order of the Stick, the Mark of Justice spell.

OotS, in fact, shows us an example of what Mark of Justice usage would be like in the gramarie world, and how quickly it would break down, the silver output for the spell would mass reproduce the same instance of the spell with the same wordings and passwords, unless changed on a constant basis, which, of course, somewhat nulifies the very advantage of the mass produced nature of it. But perhaps not, depending on how the capacity of the holder to change parameters would work.

Mildly more effective methods go then to the more invasive Alter Memory, Mindrape and Mindrape-[Exalted Version], whatever the name of that spell is. Alas, there is no Brain Output for psionic powers (or does transparency apply?), so I will refrain from including the somewhat more extensive list of powers without supernatural moral strings attached. They are mildly more effective because there are still ways around them, even if they are more difficult to get a hold of.

Of course, human rights are very much an extremely young concept (roughtly a century old), and by no means does your average fantasy setting follow its excessively restrictive tenets, so law enforcement could and likely should deal with the more egregious lawbreakers in the age old methods of forced labour, military conscription and death.

[Necroticplague]

.In our most esteemed and mundane real world, it is a troublesome matter, because it has been known for a considerable ammount of time that the penitentiary system does not work as intended, it has never worked as intended and it will never work as intended, and this is a fact that is not limited to any particular part of the world.
It depends on what you think the purpose of the penitentiary system is. If its to help stop criminals from performing crime again, that it's horrifically ineffective. The main purpose, however, is to appease the public desire for retribution, especially against heinous crimes, with a satisfying finish.At this, its pretty effective (though the death penalty is sometimes moreso, thus its continued existence).

A magical world has better solutions, some stronger than others, some more invasive than others, none of them perfect. We have seen the most obvious and possibly least effective of these solutions in Order of the Stick, the Mark of Justice spell.
I don't know, a Gaes seems pretty effective, since it literally cannot break the orders on its own. A curse of some kind may also work. Of course, since all these stop a person from commiting more crimes, it would probably save time by just being used as a preventative measure by making people unable to break the law ahead of time, have an EI controlling a silverout with a geas when they come in, and a dispel curse on the way out.

[Draken]

It depends on what you think the purpose of the penitentiary system is. If its to help stop criminals from performing crime again, that it's horrifically ineffective. The main purpose, however, is to appease the public desire for retribution, especially against heinous crimes, with a satisfying finish.At this, its pretty effective (though the death penalty is sometimes moreso, thus its continued existence).
A magical world has better solutions, some stronger than others, some more invasive than others, none of them perfect. We have seen the most obvious and possibly least effective of these solutions in Order of the Stick, the Mark of Justice spell.
I don't know, a Gaes seems pretty effective, since it literally cannot break the orders on its own. A curse of some kind may also work. Of course, since all these stop a person from commiting more crimes, it would probably save time by just being used as a preventative measure by making people unable to break the law ahead of time, have an EI controlling a silverout with a geas when they come in, and a dispel curse on the way out.[/QUOTE]

It is neither. The function of the penitentiary system, as is taught to law students, is to reform the prisoners. The great failing of this intended purpose then, is that the great congregations of prisoners have an opposite result, serving as veritable schools for crime instead. Of course, there are many facets to why the system fails, and there are whole books devoted to the subject.

In systems that apply perpetual prison, sure, the final purpose of isolating the criminal from society works, for the most part, but such an inmate becomes effectively a permanent teacher for those who will come in and eventually leave, he is even probably more experienced a criminal as well.

The purpose of the prison system is not to appease the masses, however. That isn't the purpose of justice at all. And if it were, criminal courts would all but certainly have already devolved into a circus resulting invariably into a guilty conviction, because the masses like blood and the sensationalist press likes to feed this bloodlust.

[sirpercival]

I may have a solution to both the social engineering problem and the currency problem, though I like the adamantine/electrum one...

What if the currency is people? (Cue Soylent Green references :smallbiggrin:) And to prevent outright slavery, wealth is measured by not only how many commoners you own, but also their quality of life?

What would the implications of such a system be?

[Arcanist]

I may have a solution to both the social engineering problem and the currency problem, though I like the adamantine/electrum one...

Hey, if they can turn entire cities from wood to gold, why use Gold as a currency? :smalltongue:


What if the currency is people? (Cue Soylent Green references :smallbiggrin:) And to prevent outright slavery, wealth is measured by not only how many commoners you own, but also their quality of life?

I have a problem with using people as currency...


What would the implications of such a system be?

WELL it effectively remains the same as Amechra's 1984 version of Gramarie. Gramarist just ruling over the people and trading them like cattle. More or less it just Turns into Feudalism with Gramarist leading nations against each other to improve the quality of life and thus increase the worth of there currency.

[Draken]

"Using people as currency, with their value depending on how well they are" hits a number of brick walls.

First brick wall, it is so completely arbitrary it is not funny.

Individuals are not really tradeable, only communities, because once you move one dude out of one gramarist's wallet of exquisite parks and five star hotels and move him into another's wallet of factories and colective bunks, his value goes down.

If individuals are tradeable, that means they are somehow useful. Probably through being skilled at some sort of... Well, skill. Good crafters, artisans, diplomats, whatever. This becomes slave trade, plain and simple. Heck, it was slave trade before, but with completely arbitrary values that any given individual would probably get fed up with very quickly and just bow out of the system. If he has eight friends, they can just abandon the whole system and be perfectly self-sufficient.

The whole argument remains silly, of course, because the "people stop being relevant" world is still predicated as much on all the gramarists being ADHD-driven psychopaths as the shining gramarie utopia is predicated on all the gramarists being shining paragons of selflessness and magnanimity.

[Arcanist]

The whole argument remains silly, of course, because the "people stop being relevant" world is still predicated as much on all the gramarists being ADHD-driven psychopaths as the shining gramarie utopia is predicated on all the gramarists being shining paragons of selflessness and magnanimity.

To be fair all it needs in my opinion is for people to become aware they have a choice. To be a Mad Gramarist (I.e. Joseph Mengele) or a Neutral Gramarist (...Anyone know an apathetic notable Scientist?) Or a Good Gramarist (... anyone know a non-sociopathic Doctor that cared about his/her fellow man) or anywhere in between :smalltongue:

It's not utopia, but it's also not a dystopia. It's just... life :smallsmile:

[Necroticplague]

The whole argument remains silly, of course, because the "people stop being relevant" world is still predicated as much on all the gramarists being ADHD-driven psychopaths as the shining gramarie utopia is predicated on all the gramarists being shining paragons of selflessness and magnanimity.

People don't have to be ADHD driven psycopaths to take efforts to replace humans with something better, they just need a proper profit motive, like a heuristicist and biollurgist getting together an saying "You know, if we pooled our talents, we could undercut most the locals, and with only two of us, make a handsome profit." Then, they use some of the money to expand their operation, allowing them to further undercut the common laborer making even more money. Repeat until effective labor monopoly is established. Real life avoids this because machines are big investements of both time and money, while grammary is a relatively small investements. Heuristics doesn't require any materials, and the materials for biollurgy ("organic material") are effectively free, any random tree will work. Then all you have is time, which is about 5 hours for a basic one (BIOY 101,228,and 273, HEUR 101, 328), a fairly small expenditure.

[Arcanist]

People don't have to be ADHD driven psycopaths to take efforts to replace humans with something better, they just need a proper profit motive, like a heuristicist and biollurgist getting together an saying "You know, if we pooled our talents, we could undercut most the locals, and with only two of us, make a handsome profit." Then, they use some of the money to expand their operation, allowing them to further undercut the common laborer making even more money. Repeat until effective labor monopoly is established. Real life avoids this because machines are big investements of both time and money, while grammary is a relatively small investements. Heuristics doesn't require any materials, and the materials for biollurgy ("organic material") are effectively free, any random tree will work. Then all you have is time, which is about 5 hours for a basic one (BIOY 101,228,and 273, HEUR 101, 328), a fairly small expenditure.

If memory serves, the animated structures need to eat there weight in food everyday to maintain condition, so it's not entirely free :smalltongue:

[Necroticplague]

If memory serves, the animated structures need to eat there weight in food everyday to maintain condition, so it's not entirely free :smalltongue:

No, nothing bout their weight, just that they need a normal amount of food, which for a Medium Chassis is about a pound a day. However, their aren't any penalties for starvation up until 3 days without food. So relly, its one pound of food every three days.

And to compare, that is still probably less than paying someone enough so that the can feed themselves, especially since your constructs are more willing to settle for...less appetizing fare.

EDIT:Re-looking more carefully, their weight is mentioned, but its their own weight every MONTH not day.

[Omnicrat]

Of course, human rights are very much an extremely young concept (roughtly a century old)

Depends on how you look at it. The Persian's established human rights about... 2500 years ago, if memory serves.


The whole argument remains silly, of course, because the "people stop being relevant" world is still predicated as much on all the gramarists being ADHD-driven psychopaths as the shining gramarie utopia is predicated on all the gramarists being shining paragons of selflessness and magnanimity.

You really only need 1 good grautsman and 1 good dreammason to get my system off the ground. Then smuggle people from a crazy distopia to one of my utopia demiplanes till all that's left in the dystopia are the gramarists.


To be fair all it needs in my opinion is for people to become aware they have a choice. To be a Mad Gramarist (I.e. Joseph Mengele) or a Neutral Gramarist (...Anyone know an apathetic notable Scientist?) Or a Good Gramarist (... anyone know a non-sociopathic Doctor that cared about his/her fellow man) or anywhere in between :smalltongue:

It's not utopia, but it's also not a dystopia. It's just... life :smallsmile:

See above.


People don't have to be ADHD driven psycopaths to take efforts to replace humans with something better, they just need a proper profit motive, like a heuristicist and biollurgist getting together an saying "You know, if we pooled our talents, we could undercut most the locals, and with only two of us, make a handsome profit." Then, they use some of the money to expand their operation, allowing them to further undercut the common laborer making even more money. Repeat until effective labor monopoly is established. Real life avoids this because machines are big investements of both time and money, while grammary is a relatively small investements. Heuristics doesn't require any materials, and the materials for biollurgy ("organic material") are effectively free, any random tree will work. Then all you have is time, which is about 5 hours for a basic one (BIOY 101,228,and 273, HEUR 101, 328), a fairly small expenditure.

Right, but you do need to be a total sociopath who is crazy to not let the good gramarists out there not improve the quality of life for the common people. Below is the mentality of typical representations of the alignments as I see them, without being crazy or stupid.

Evil: Once we create our circuited chassis workforce, who cares about the little ants? Let them die in squalor.
Neutral: I've got everything I need for me, so everyone else can just go do their own thing.
Good: Now that I've got everything I need, and therefor need no more, I can start making principles for the common folk for free!

So, the evil and neutral guy don't really care about the common folk, but the good guy does and makes their lives better. Because when you have all you need, you don't need more and can give your excess away.

[davethebrave]

Heck, it was slave trade before, but with completely arbitrary values that any given individual would probably get fed up with very quickly and just bow out of the system. If he has eight friends, they can just abandon the whole system and be perfectly self-sufficient.

Discourse control, even something as ham-fisted and obvious as propaganda, is an efficient way to cement people into any system that rationality/ethics/mental well-being all say people really should bow out of. Just because a group of people can bow out doesn't mean a group of people will. Case in point: modern unaccountable corporate tyrannies with labyrinthine control over political and legislative functions on both the national and transnational/international stages through their absolute domination of the economic sphere, and how many people in the minority world of "developed" or "first" world people (both hierarchically charged terms that I don't care to use) bow out of wage slavery! Wage slavery, I might add in your terminology, composed of completely arbitrary values that just about everyone the minority world over are fed up with. They certainly aren't "objective" market values dictated by some Invisible Ghost Adam Smith Hand, but enough people believe those delusions on a social control level that people don't bow out en masse. And that's just the minority world, when you get to the majority world you've got social controls plus outright military juntas and so on funded and supported by corporations. Today, Shell Oil and corrupt African governments collude to crush labour movements to the extent that Shell is under investigation for at least financial collusion (if not participation to some degree in planning or decision making) in successful assassinations of labour leaders.

Not trying to start a real world political argument, just highlighting some ways that you can easily have people assigned values in a game world by basing the situations that the setting has to deal with on real world situations. For example, I'm planning on making the gramarie setting I'm collaboratively developing with my players for a play by post a test of the players' abilities/interest in influencing historical developments in the world as gramarie becomes more common. As of the start of the first story arc, artificers are only a couple generations old, and out of their approach to magic sprouted the first serious flowering of gramarie in just the last generation of people. Like in medieval Europe, much of science and learning (and, in this case, magic) is in the service of power. As such, much of the new science and learning will be shaped to service of power, especially as gramarie's uses start to become apparent and the furtive, urgent protests of sycophantic court wizards and zealous hierophants afraid (rightly so) of their fall from grace in the face of gramarie's ascension begin to fall on more and more deaf ears, re: the royalty/nobility/aristocracy. Eventually, the burgeoning middle class rising on the tide of industrial gramarie and industrial capitalism will begin to demand different societies, and like on Earth, I plan on having the royal families begin to marry their children off to the up and coming bougie capitalists in command of the best industrialized uses of gramarie and the families in charge of the largest central banks/international banks, since the royals will see (as the religious authorities before them) where power is heading. Maybe my players will be working class heroes, or maybe they'll stick to the standard fantasy formula of doing quests for the King of X and the Emperor of Y, and unknowingly aid quiet power shifts being done behind the scenes while the veneer of a transition of power "to the people" begins to be faux-grudgingly assented to by the rulers they quest so enthusiastically for.

But either way, I imagine the weight of gramarie sweeping the world will be too great for them, which paves the way for some pretty epic Marxist-inspired parallels that can be drawn up in a fairly literal way re: people selling their labour on the market (i.e. a market of gramarie-use prices on people) that could run into some Matrix-y "people as batteries" territory as well. Which also lets me mess around with themes of EI vs. the nations of the world, where the nations of the world are spouting humanism and liberal democracy with their mouths and enslaving people with their behaviours/actions, operating advertising/mass media that propagandize to their intranational populations to keep them complacent/complicit in the enslavement of others just like today, and the EI rise up against the enslavement of EI and against the slavery of other sentient/sapient creatures, but all the players get to hear is the Singularity Nightmare propaganda churned out by the nationstates of the world, warning of the "machines" poised to "destroy and supplant" the mortal races. I like the idea of volunteer batteries of colonized races who become power sources for massive EI war machines so that the EI can crush the colonial/imperialist nations that are spun by the corporate media back home as EI brutally enslaving all life for sustenance, when really it's a consensual political/wartime agreement that the EI plan to end as soon as they liberate the world's poor, downtrodden and dispossessed.

Anyway, tl;dr one can always, as a DM, find ways for a society to find the intolerable eminently tolerable. The Masters of our particular real-world Dungeon are pretty good at it.

[Amechra]

I just have to note that, funnily enough (to change the topic), the only two forms of Grammarie that degrade over time if you can't supply the ebbs are Biollurgy and Geoccultism; and in the first case, that's only because of wear and tear.

Everything else can be picked up thousands of years later (carmot can prevent wood from rotting, if you really need it), and used without any problems.

[sreservoir]

and if you do supply the ebbs, they can all last forever? and gramarie has plenty of ways to produce ebbs natively, so is more that only geoc has a mechanism for decay over time.

[Necroticplague]

and if you do supply the ebbs, they can all last forever? and gramarie has plenty of ways to produce ebbs natively, so is more that only geoc has a mechanism for decay over time.

Regardless of ebbs, you need to constantly maintain BIOY chassis, they need to be fed and watered. Although, biostructure on its own is capable of just sitting their breathing for an eternity, without input.

[Arcanist]

At this rate the campaign might die before it even gets off the ground :smallannoyed: CURSE YOU INTERNET! YOU'VE FAILED ME ONCE AGAIN!

... Unless of course you ladies and gentlemen wish to continue discussion in this thread? (or perhaps another thread :smallamused:)

[Omnicrat]

At this rate the campaign might die before it even gets off the ground :smallannoyed: CURSE YOU INTERNET! YOU'VE FAILED ME ONCE AGAIN!

... Unless of course you ladies and gentlemen wish to continue discussion in this thread? (or perhaps another thread :smallamused:)

new thread on this forum. start it up and link it both here and in the campaign thread.

[Amechra]

Alright, something has been kinda bugging me, and that's the fact that, by definition, the Grammarist is, in and of itself, Tier 0, since, as has been shown, a pair of Grammarists can pretty much redo an entire campaign setting by themselves with the equivalent of an afternoon's work.

So, I've been thinking of a few things if anyone wants to look at a lower-power variant:

1. Base SilverOuts on Psionics (or Ernir's Vancian Magic with Psionic Mechanics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002)); each transformer has a predesigned maximum ML, based off your ranks in UMD. Psionics are a lot more balanced than Vancian Magic, that's all I'm going to say.

2. Rewrite Abnormal Behavior (HEUR 302) so that it works more like a Blueprint (so you can stick anything in there, but you need higher level "operators" to make the thing duplicate higher level Grammaric Principles.)

3. Just as a little thing, it's been bugging me that Transformers don't actually use their skill for anything; I was thinking something along the lines of limiting how many Ebbs they can have flowing through them at one time; high checks would end up being like they are right now, while low checks would cause them to "blow out" the Transformer.

Thoughts?

[Omnicrat]

Alright, something has been kinda bugging me, and that's the fact that, by definition, the Grammarist is, in and of itself, Tier 0, since, as has been shown, a pair of Grammarists can pretty much redo an entire campaign setting by themselves with the equivalent of an afternoon's work.

So, I've been thinking of a few things if anyone wants to look at a lower-power variant:

1. Base SilverOuts on Psionics (or Ernir's Vancian Magic with Psionic Mechanics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002)); each transformer has a predesigned maximum ML, based off your ranks in UMD. Psionics are a lot more balanced than Vancian Magic, that's all I'm going to say.

2. Rewrite Abnormal Behavior (HEUR 302) so that it works more like a Blueprint (so you can stick anything in there, but you need higher level "operators" to make the thing duplicate higher level Grammaric Principles.)

3. Just as a little thing, it's been bugging me that Transformers don't actually use their skill for anything; I was thinking something along the lines of limiting how many Ebbs they can have flowing through them at one time; high checks would end up being like they are right now, while low checks would cause them to "blow out" the Transformer.

Thoughts?

I think that still gives me an infinite army of blindly loyal soldiers who neutralize magic (psionics, depending on how you change silverins) and breath fire. With two gramarists. In a few days.

In other words, still tier 0. But I like it that way :smallwink:

[Amechra]

Well, true; my original suggestion was just getting rid of Abnormal Behavior, but that would've been lame.

I just want things to be slightly more under control.

[Omnicrat]

Well, true; my original suggestion was just getting rid of Abnormal Behavior, but that would've been lame.

I just want things to be slightly more under control.

What you (surprisingly) fail to understand is that gramarie under controle is not gramarie :smallwink:

[Amechra]

Shhhhhhh...

Don't tell anyone, eh?

I just personally feel that Grammarie can be dialed back a bit...(I don't have a problem with the infinite armies; I just think that Grammarists being able to obsolete themselves is kinda whoa.)

[Arcanist]

Well, true; my original suggestion was just getting rid of Abnormal Behavior, but that would've been lame.

I just want things to be slightly more under control.

SilverOuts are easily the most exploitable mechanic of Gramaire, but simply removing it takes a lot of power from the Gramarist. I suggest limiting the spell list and spell level to 6 and allow a Gramarist to implant a spell to a maximum of 1 spell level every 4 levels (starting at 1st lvl spells at level 1).

On another note for the ebbs required to power the SilverOut, Kellus thought of using a Fibonacci progression for it.

[QuidEst]

SilverOuts are easily the most exploitable mechanic of Gramaire, but simply removing it takes a lot of power from the Gramarist. I suggest limiting the spell list and spell level to 6 and allow a Gramarist to implant a spell to a maximum of 1 spell level every 4 levels (starting at 1st lvl spells at level 1).

On another note for the ebbs required to power the SilverOut, Kellus thought of using a Fibonacci progression for it.

Fibonacci sequence is recursively defined, so it's a little annoying to calculate. What about always casting at minimum caster level, and paying the square of the spell level? It still absorbs energy at the old rate. (Magic and grammarie being distinct, I would expect this.) That should clear up a few AoE abuses in the processes.

[Amechra]

He was actually going to use a straight square progression; the Fibonacci progression was my idea.

And yeah, SilverOuts make me sad. Since one of the ideas behind Grammarie was that it gave a way to do most of the things that spellcasting could do to the world...

It feels kinda disingenuous to have that be because you can just duplicate magic.

[Volthawk]

He was actually going to use a straight square progression; the Fibonacci progression was my idea.

And yeah, SilverOuts make me sad. Since one of the ideas behind Grammarie was that it gave a way to do most of the things that spellcasting could do to the world...

It feels kinda disingenuous to have that be because you can just duplicate magic.

Especially considering how it's available straight away as one of the basic transformers available.

[Arcanist]

He was actually going to use a straight square progression; the Fibonacci progression was my idea.

Then you my friend are a genius :smallwink:



And yeah, SilverOuts make me sad. Since one of the ideas behind Grammarie was that it gave a way to do most of the things that spellcasting could do to the world...

Thoughts on limiting spell level use?

[QuidEst]

He was actually going to use a straight square progression; the Fibonacci progression was my idea.

Hmm, I looked over the numbers, and that does seem more reasonable for upper levels stuff. (Comparing Fib on caster level with square on spell level, use minimum caster level.) At lower levels, I think it makes sense to make the cost of casting, say, a fireball per round higher rather than lower.

Perhaps the cap should be the same as wands, and be fourth level? This is, after all, "free" magic every round. Limiting the spell level further forces some more creative uses of other parts of grammarie, but still allows a lot of useful magical effects. Gird your army in Mage Armor, for instance.

Hmm. Spell per round gets me thinking… what about a silverOut that spams Unseen Servant? Hour duration means that once you've warmed it up for an hour and keep that up, you can maintain 600 of them. At strength of 2 each, that's an effective 1200 strength. Move something of up to 6 tons at 15 ft/round on a budget of 1 ebb/round. We can move 30 tons at 5 ft/round on that same budget. Get metamagic Extend on that (increasing warmup time), use two transformers, and you can start hauling all kinds of things. (AoE is going to take all of that out, of course.)

[Arcanist]

Hmm. Spell per round gets me thinking… what about a silverOut that spams Unseen Servant? Hour duration means that once you've warmed it up for an hour and keep that up, you can maintain 600 of them. At strength of 2 each, that's an effective 1200 strength. Move something of up to 6 tons at 15 ft/round on a budget of 1 ebb/round. We can move 30 tons at 5 ft/round on that same budget. Get metamagic Extend on that (increasing warmup time), use two transformers, and you can start hauling all kinds of things. (AoE is going to take all of that out, of course.)

Why waste time? Just use Servant Hoard (1 unseen servant/cl meaning 5 per round). Sure it's costly, but its and easy way to create free labor in a setting where using BIOY constructs as free labor is illegal :smallamused:

[Qwertystop]

Why waste time? Just use Servant Hoard (1 unseen servant/cl meaning 5 per round). Sure it's costly, but its and easy way to create free labor in a setting where using BIOY constructs as free labor is illegal :smallamused:

I assume you mean "Horde"? Never heard of either, but "Hoard" is as in "big pile of gold on which a dragon sleeps".

Which would be funny, if there was someone who collected and hoarded different variations on the Unseen Servant effect.

[ShadowFireLance]

"Hoard" is as in "big pile of gold on which a dragon sleeps".

Someone rang? :smallbiggrin::smallamused:

Anywho, What is this "Unseen Horde" Spell?

[QuidEst]

Why waste time? Just use Servant Hoard (1 unseen servant/cl meaning 5 per round). Sure it's costly, but its and easy way to create free labor in a setting where using BIOY constructs as free labor is illegal :smallamused:

Don't forget the 2d6 they throw on for free. And 1/cl means 9, since that's the lowest caster level for a fifth-level spell. That puts it at 16 servants/round.

Well, depending on the formula used for caster level, it may or may not be better to make several silverOut transformers and split the ebbs up. The thing I like about using boring ol' Unseen Servant is that it's an extremely common spell, and only first level. By the time you can get Servant Horde, you should be doing much more broken things with a SilverOut.

[Amechra]

My suggestion is that we shouldn't even have a transformer that takes in and outputs spells, since, unlike the rest of the transformers (with the exception of the specialty Doctorate ones), spells aren't intrinsic to all settings.

I've seen a ton of people run campaigns where arcane magic was rare, and psionics was the name of the game; so, in other words, I think, if anything Silver needs to be something more intrinsic.

I have a draft somewhere for Silver transformers that take in and output emotion, and I have scraps for ones that would process food, water, blood, health, and sleep, so...

Because the magic one, if it exists, should not be the most basic way to get energy for your projects. It should come a bit later, if at all.

In my opinion.

[Necroticplague]

My main beef with silver outputs is their lack of self-sufficiency, without a friendly spellcaster, all they do is turn is turn ebbs into Eldritch Blasts.In direct contrast to how with almost everything else, you can cloister yourself away from everyone else and not be seen of for a while once you have the materials (unless you're trying something crazy that requires cooperating with multiple different types of specialists).

Also, just something a tad bit odd I wanted to point out to check for intentionality: Iron (and thus phlogistan) melts at a little over 1500 (my memory says 1536, but I'm not sure). If you're a contractor with Phlegmatic Phlogistan, it will heat itself up to 2000 degrees S, by default, Phlematic Phlogistan is naturally molten, unless you use some alchemetry to raise its melting point to high levels.
On the bright side, these means my super-hot-super-soldier idea from a few pages back can be attained, just now requires a PRC ability, instead of just specialization. The one about "hot but not molten", of course.

[sreservoir]

fibonacci has a closed-form solution.