[PF] Sneak Attack on iteratives

[The Boz]

How does that work? Is the Rogue supposed to be able to dual-wield/haste/secondary attack and get SA damage on EACH attack?

[Golkiwu]

As long as the target is denied it's Dex.

Yes.

[Anyr]

How does that work? Is the Rogue supposed to be able to dual-wield/haste/secondary attack and get SA damage on EACH attack?

Sneak Attack can be applied to any attacks which meet its conditions, regardless of quantity. If a Rogue were to flank a non-immune target and somehow manage to get seventeen hits on them in a turn, then all of them could be Sneak Attacks.

[herrhauptmann]

Using invisibility? Only first attack.
Using improved invisibility? All attacks.

[Answerer]

Note that this damage is almost-always less than a high-strength meleer power attacking with a two-handed weapon can do.

At 20th level, a Rogue 19/something-with-SA 1 with TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Craven and Assassin's Stance has 13d6+20 Sneak Attack damage (65.5 on average) and six attacks. Toss on haste for a seventh. That's 91d6+140 damage, or 458.5 on average, or 686 damage maximum.

At the same level, some form of Barbarian/Fighter/whatever can easily have 40 Strength (say 20 to start, 5 from levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement, +4 from Rage), and Shock Trooper's no more optimizing than Craven. A Lance, Power Attack, and a charge, and you're looking at +122 damage from Power Attack and Strength alone. On five attacks (iteratives plus haste), that's 610 damage. Notice that this is a totally reliable number, not an average, and that it's a whole lot closer to the Rogue's maximum. And this guy's chance to hit will generally be quite a bit higher, since he's got full BAB and a ton of Strength. His AC will be terrible, but he'll have way more HP than the Rogue, plus I have not used even remotely as many feats or levels on accomplishing this.

[herrhauptmann]

Class comparisons

Yes, PF does say it's backwards compatible with 3.5, but the thread lists PF only, not 3.P or 3.X.
So power attack works differently.
There is a feature called craven, but it doesn't do what the CoR feat does.
There's also no shocktrooper.

[The Boz]

Oh, OK then.
So when attacking, say, an unaware human, from complete darkness, all stealthed up, with a shortbow, with a potential of 3 ranged attacks per round, are all 3 automatically sneak attacks, or is it just the first, or is it the first that hits, or is there a spot check involved of some kind?

[Answerer]

Yes, PF does say it's backwards compatible with 3.5, but the thread lists PF only, not 3.P or 3.X.
So power attack works differently.
There is a feature called craven, but it doesn't do what the CoR feat does.
There's also no shocktrooper.
Meh, Paizo didn't change nearly as much as they pretend they did. While the exact resources involved have changed, the fact that two-handed fighting is greatly superior to two-weapon fighting hasn't changed.

[Coidzor]

Oh, OK then.
So when attacking, say, an unaware human, from complete darkness, all stealthed up, with a shortbow, with a potential of 3 ranged attacks per round, are all 3 automatically sneak attacks, or is it just the first, or is it the first that hits, or is there a spot check involved of some kind?

If it is actually complete darkness, then the human cannot see, so one is effectively invisible to them and so cannot be spotted. It's rather rare to run into such situations though where the human isn't already ground chuck.

At least, as far as I've read, the lighting rules haven't changed in this regard.

[lsfreak]

Any attack that qualifies get sneak attack. I don't play Pathfinder, but in 3.x, this means a flanked enemy will take sneak attack on every melee attack made against them, or an entire opening volley with a ranged weapon, or any attack while invisible to the target, etc.

EDIT: With the darkness, note that you cannot get any sneak attack when the target has concealment, in normal 3.x. Shadowy illumination or total illumination means that the target is "immune" to sneak attacks, by 3.x rules.

[grarrrg]

On topic response: Each round is only 6 seconds. That is not a lot of time.

We'll assume an Ambush situation: The 1st attack to be a Sneak Attack, as the Defender is unaware. Given the time frame of 6 seconds, it is not too difficult to assume that the defender would not be able to get their guard up in time. Also, the Attacker would try to attack in such a way as to keep the Defender off balance with a flurry of attacks. Eventually (about 6 seconds later...) the Defender would get their wits together to be able to better fend off the assault.


Off topic response:
"Sneak attack is better" "Uber-Charger is better" "There is no Uber-Charger in PF"
Gentlemen.
I give you BOTH.
The Skulking Slayer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-orc/skulking-slayer-rogue-half-orc) Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) Beastmorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/beastmorph) Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist).
At 3rd level, whenever a Skulking Slayer makes a Charge+Sneak Attack with a Two Hander, all of the Sneak Dice become d8's. :smallbiggrin:
At 4th level, whenever a Scout charges, the attack will automatically deal Sneak Attack damage.
A Vivisectionist stacks levels with Rogue to determine Sneak Attack damage.
At level 10 a Beastmorph's Mutagen lets them select abilities from those available with Beast Shape II (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beast-shape). These abilities include Pounce.
Throw on 2 levels of Master Chymist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/master-chymist) for +2/day uses of Mutagen, and Greater Mutagen Discovery, and we're set.

At 16th level, we can drink a Mutagen gaining +6 STR and Pounce (amongst other things), then Charge and Full Attack with our Two-Handed weapon adding 7d8 Sneak dice to EVERY hit (8d8 Sneak Dice if our DM lets us stack Master Chymist levels for Sneak damage).

Granted, we only have 12 Bab, and need 4 more levels of Full Bab to get the last iterative.

[ThiagoMartell]

Meh, Paizo didn't change nearly as much as they pretend they did. While the exact resources involved have changed, the fact that two-handed fighting is greatly superior to two-weapon fighting hasn't changed.
The Pathfinder optimization community as a whole seems to emphatically disagree with you.

[Novawurmson]

The Pathfinder optimization community as a whole seems to emphatically disagree with you.

Really? :smallconfused: There are a few notable examples where TWF got a boost:

1. More classes with a source of bonus damage: Paladin's smite working on all attacks in a given round, Ranger's "Instant Enemy" spell, Inquisitor's bane, Barbarian/Monk elemental damage class features, Vivisectionist Alchemist...

2. More feats means that a feat-intensive build is more viable.

3. All races gaining a net bonus to stats means the stat-intensive part of TWF is less painful.

...but on the whole, THF are still beastly with just one feat: Power Attack. The rest of their build is just bonus.

Plus, pounce is relatively harder to find in PF, which is vital for a TWF build. The CRB "pounce" option is the Vital Strike feat chain - a feat chain that benefits the guy with the biggest, ugliest stick the most.

TWF is still viable for classes with big on-hit bonuses (cough Rogue cough), but THF is a bigger reward for a smaller investment for most classes.

What PF did buff to a huge degree is archery, but that's another rant.

[ThiagoMartell]

Really? :smallconfused: There are a few notable examples where TWF got a boost:
(...)
You missed Double Slice, which means Rangers can actually go full Str for TWF.

...but on the whole, THF are still beastly with just one feat: Power Attack. The rest of their build is just bonus.
Power Attack is a lot less beastly than it was in 3.5 with it's fixed bonuses.


Plus, pounce is relatively harder to find in PF, which is vital for a TWF build.
Hm... pretty much all melee classes get some form of pounce around level 11, don't they?


TWF is still viable for classes with big on-hit bonuses (cough Rogue cough), but THF is a bigger reward for a smaller investment for most classes.
I never said it was not the case. A single feat is indeed a smaller investment. All I said is that it's not "greatly superior" to TWF, as any Pathfinder guide will tell you in the first few paragraphs.

[grarrrg]

Hm... pretty much all melee classes get some form of pounce around level 11, don't they?

I will skip classes that can cast Beast Shape, as you generally lose hands in any Beast form that grants Pounce.


Some Melee classes can potentially get a version of "pounce", with the right Archetype/Ability selection.

Alchemist, level 10, Beastmorph archetype (as previously posted). While your Mutagen is active, you can gain any of the abilities that could be gained through the Beast Morph II spell (but you do not actually become a 'beast').

Barbarian, level 10, Greater Beast Totem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/beast-totem-greater-su) Rage power (requires Lesser Beast Totem, and reg. Beast Totem powers).

Cavalier, level 17, Emissary (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/emissary) archetype, as part of a Charge, you move 10 ft. Make 1 non-Charge attack, then finish your charge as normal (with a -5 to-hit on the Charge itself).

Fighter, level 11, Mobile Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/mobile-fighter) archetype, does not get the Highest Bab attack, BUT can attack at any point during movement. Level 20 can make a Full Attack (or a Whirlwind attack) as a Standard Action.

Monk, level 12, Monk of the Four Winds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-four-winds) archetype, can spend 6 Ki to gain +2 Standard actions. He can NOT make a Full Attack this round though (multiple single strikes are fine). Level 17, w/Tiger aspect can once per Hour make a Charge at x10 land speed and gains Pounce for this attack.

Paladin, none.

Ranger, level various archetypes:
Guide, level 11, 1/day gain +10ft. movement, either an extra Swift or Move action, +4 on AC, To-hit, Skill checks, and Auto-Confirms Criticals. Effect only lasts until end of next turn, so 2 rounds at most. At level 19 +1/day use.
Skirmisher, level 5, Surprise Shift, as a Swift action can move 5-feet, this does NOT count as a 5-foot step. So effective 'pounce' range is only 10ft. Limited uses.
Wild Stalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/wild-stalker), level 13, Can take Rage Powers as a Barbarian (Barb = Ranger -3). Take the Beast Totem line.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

The Pathfinder optimization community as a whole seems to emphatically disagree with you.

That is just not true. Go over to Paizo's message-boards: People will primarily advocate high STR, two handed power attacking builds, even for rangers, who can ignore feat prerequisites. TWF is still considered less optimal due to the heavy feat investment, and power attacking is the best source of reliable melee damage, and stacking the two is still a hefty penalty.

[ericgrau]

As long as the sneak attack trigger still exists on the second attack it can also be a sneak attack. If you broke invisibility or stealth with the first attack it would not. If your'e flanking or have greater invisibility it would.

Sneak attack damage is still lower than other classes' damage due to lower attack bonus (so less actual hits even with more attacks) and the difficulty of setting up the trigger. On top of that rogues tend to have lousy HP and AC, so they tend to get fewer full attacks too. And they don't tend to have strength damage nor a big weapon so even the damage itself is lower than you might think. All together it adds up to something mediocre. But at least they have skills.

Without shocktrooper to boost PA the different between TWF and THF is so minor it isn't worth measuring. Yes, including the cost of all the feats and so on. THF is a hair ahead, but if your build has anything beyond the basics that's worth stacking onto more attacks then that'll be enough to pull TWF ahead, assuming all your other stats are good (unlike a rogue).

[Larpus]

On topic response: Each round is only 6 seconds. That is not a lot of time.

We'll assume an Ambush situation: The 1st attack to be a Sneak Attack, as the Defender is unaware. Given the time frame of 6 seconds, it is not too difficult to assume that the defender would not be able to get their guard up in time. Also, the Attacker would try to attack in such a way as to keep the Defender off balance with a flurry of attacks. Eventually (about 6 seconds later...) the Defender would get their wits together to be able to better fend off the assault.


Off topic response:
"Sneak attack is better" "Uber-Charger is better" "There is no Uber-Charger in PF"
Gentlemen.
I give you BOTH.
The Skulking Slayer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-orc/skulking-slayer-rogue-half-orc) Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) Beastmorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/beastmorph) Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist).
At 3rd level, whenever a Skulking Slayer makes a Charge+Sneak Attack with a Two Hander, all of the Sneak Dice become d8's. :smallbiggrin:
At 4th level, whenever a Scout charges, the attack will automatically deal Sneak Attack damage.
A Vivisectionist stacks levels with Rogue to determine Sneak Attack damage.
At level 10 a Beastmorph's Mutagen lets them select abilities from those available with Beast Shape II (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beast-shape). These abilities include Pounce.
Throw on 2 levels of Master Chymist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/master-chymist) for +2/day uses of Mutagen, and Greater Mutagen Discovery, and we're set.

At 16th level, we can drink a Mutagen gaining +6 STR and Pounce (amongst other things), then Charge and Full Attack with our Two-Handed weapon adding 7d8 Sneak dice to EVERY hit (8d8 Sneak Dice if our DM lets us stack Master Chymist levels for Sneak damage).

Granted, we only have 12 Bab, and need 4 more levels of Full Bab to get the last iterative.
You sir, are a ridiculous genius.

That said, you forgot to mention the extra Bite and Claw attacks as you most probably have Feral Mutagen to qualify for Master Chymist (considering that Infuse Mutagen sucks balls and is redundant).

[Novawurmson]

I'll just address one thing right now before bed: Double Slice. It gives full Str on off-hand attacks.

Let's assume that you get a 25 point buy. If you dump 20 of those points into getting a 16+2 (racial)=18 in Strength and a 16 in Dexterity, you'll be on track to qualify for Improved Two Weapon Fighting by putting points from level up into Dex [17 Dex at level 4, 18 at 8, 19 at 12] and friends. Then, you spend a feat for Double Slice. In the end, it gets you...an additional +2 damage on your offhand attacks. If your Strength is any lower, it's only a +1 damage on your offhand attacks.

Oooooor you could start with a 18+2(racial) 20 in Str for 17 points and only take as much Dex as you feel you need, plus you get to put all your level-up points into Str (22 at level 8)...without the penalties on your attack...or the feats...and less reliant on full attacks...and the increased accuracy makes you more likely to actually hit with Power Attack...

[ThiagoMartell]

That is just not true. Go over to Paizo's message-boards: People will primarily advocate high STR, two handed power attacking builds, even for rangers, who can ignore feat prerequisites. TWF is still considered less optimal due to the heavy feat investment, and power attacking is the best source of reliable melee damage, and stacking the two is still a hefty penalty.

:smallsigh:
Please, reread my post. All I said is that the gap is smaller.


I'll just address one thing right now before bed: Double Slice. It gives full Str on off-hand attacks.

Let's assume that you get a 25 point buy. If you dump 20 of those points into getting a 16+2 (racial)=18 in Strength and a 16 in Dexterity, you'll be on track to qualify for Improved Two Weapon Fighting by putting points from level up into Dex [17 Dex at level 4, 18 at 8, 19 at 12] and friends. Then, you spend a feat for Double Slice. In the end, it gets you...an additional +2 damage on your offhand attacks. If your Strength is any lower, it's only a +1 damage on your offhand attacks.

Oooooor you could start with a 18+2(racial) 20 in Str for 17 points and only take as much Dex as you feel you need, plus you get to put all your level-up points into Str (22 at level 8)...without the penalties on your attack...or the feats...and less reliant on full attacks...and the increased accuracy makes you more likely to actually hit with Power Attack...
Did you notice it was mentioned as an option for Ranger (they don't need Dex for TWF) and that you can use Piranha Strike, which is Power Attack for light weapons...?

[Novawurmson]

It's still not that much better than Weapon Specialization... for your offhand attacks only.