PCs requesting backup, over

[Urpriest]

I have gotten the impression, both through play and through advice, that 4e handles "tagalong" NPCs rather poorly. Because monsters and PCs use rather different rules, there isn't a straightforward way to have an NPC fight alongside the PCs.

I'm in a situation right now where I'm having trouble avoiding this sort of situation. The PCs are only level 4, the city they live in is threatened, and they are actively working with the city watch. They will meet with members of the city watch before they set off to slay a vampire that is at that very moment unleashing a zombie apocalypse upon the city. This meeting has to occur for the players to get information they need to continue, and I suspect that at the meeting at least one player will request that some officers accompany them. What I need from you guys is one of the following:

1. An excuse why the watch won't send anyone to help. While I could simply argue that they need every man to contain the zombies, literally every man would probably be an obvious exaggeration. I can't think of a way to argue to the players that the watch can't spare even a few officers to help destroy a current and blatant threat to the city's existence.

2. Tips for handling tagalong NPCs: if I do have a few officers follow along and help in fights, how should I handle it?

[Tegu8788]

If they manage to convince a few guards, or even a squad to come with them, before an actual fight occurs, have a large number of zombies attack. Instead of having the PCs fight, have the guards tell them "Go on, we'll hold them off!" or something of the like. Basically, have one group of NPCs they called on cancel out another group of NPCs. Alternatively, perhaps you can set it up so that while they need to go do something they have the guard hold a passageway or something. Basically, you allow them to split the party, without splitting the party.

[LoneStarNorth]

1. If the PCs have any actual friends among the watch as opposed to just allies, have that guy (and some others) be grievously wounded or something. Maybe they're on their way to becoming zombies/vampires themselves and only slaying the leader can save them. This gives a plausible excuse, as the watch suddenly finds itself understaffed, and also a sense of urgency and personal involvement.

2. Pick out some human stats and just run them like monsters. They can provide flanking and cover and so on without seriously upstaging the PCs. Alternatively, you can do the "you go on while we cover you" thing and just say that the NPC allies have their own group of rank and file bad guys to deal with, allowing the PCs to focus on the more serious threats. You don't even have to run that part of the combat if you don't want to.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[tcrudisi]

I was going to say what Tegu said. Basically, any time the PCs go into combat, have it be a two-pronged attack where the guards have to fight them off from the other side. While the PCs are fighting, so are the NPCs.

[Alejandro]

It's still kind of sad that we have to come up with ways to avoid the problem, rather than solve it, since 4E won't really let you.

[Tegu8788]

Personally, I'm interested in seeing some kind of build that uses minions, moreso than a Beastmaster, Shaman, or Fey Beast Tamer. A player controlling a team NPCs in leu of actual powers, an extreme version of a Warlord.

As a way to make it work, you could budget in extra monsters and give each player a guard monster, so that the new player team equals the monster team. It could be a pretty fun mechanic for this fight. As someone who is clearly not a DM, I think that could work, and take some of the pressure off you.

[Adoendithas]

Maybe try a Companion Character, if you have the DMG2?

[Ashdate]

It's still kind of sad that we have to come up with ways to avoid the problem, rather than solve it, since 4E won't really let you.

I don't think that's fair; a DM could easily simply run the NPCs as standard monsters themselves. The problem is the same as it's always been; DMPCs are often a big time-sink for a DM to play while still adjudicating combat for his "regular" monsters. If anything, DMNPCs -- if based off monsters -- are far simplier to adjudicate than in previous editions.

To the OP: If you want "tag-along" NPCs, what I would do is print some basic monsters out of the appropriate level, and hand one to each of your PCs. Don't worry about making full on PCs; monsters from the MM will work fine. That way THE PCs do all the work for the NPC, leaving you free to do everything else. I did this once for a fight, and it worked pretty well.

[Sturmcrow]

Maybe try a Companion Character, if you have the DMG2?

This, make some soldier version of Companions or if this is not an option have them fight off screen, they engage some enemies but focus on the players fight maybe every few rounds describing how the guards are doing.

[Tegu8788]

Going back to your first question, this just screams skill check to me, possible even a quick mission to wipe out even zombies to give the guards a break, so they can afford to send some men with the PCs.

[Reluctance]

The simplest solution is to make the guards with simple monster stats, let the players control them in combat, and then add an equal amount of XP to the enemy force without awarding it to the players. PCs can already have mounts, so similar companion monsters shouldn't be too much hassle. Just so long as you set the companion limits low to avoid the flaws of minionmancy. (As a rule of thumb, one companion per PC is a good limit.)

Depending on the levels of all the power players, it might be worth making both guards and lesser zombies as minions. It's a matter of scale. Depending on your levels, the guards might not be a match for serious battles. They can help press through to the BBEG's lair, but the PCs have to decide if the risk of NPC fatality is worth it. Definitely keeps them as second-stringers when the real excrement goes down.

So. A small number of tagalong monsters if you want them to be relevant. A small group of tagalong minions if you don't.

[DragonBaneDM]

I've been using a lot more NPC support in my fights lately.

My players seem to enjoy it, so maybe give it a try. Take the XP that a monster would be worth, in your case the Human Guard or something along those lines, and subtract it from the XP that would be awarded for figuring out the level of the encounter.

It's easier, for me at least, if you pick every NPC out first and start building the encounter at negative XP, building up from there.

Yes, the fight will be longer, but if this is something they really want then why not let them have it instead of Mcguffining your way out of it?

EDIT: AHHH frackin' ninja'd!

[FrznTear]

The solution that the NPC's are occupied with 'other forces' is simple but pretty lame. As these 'other forces' would otherwise not exist had the PC's not obtained help it takes away from player choice and power.

On the other extreme, having extra allied characters has the disadvantage of making the PCs, the supposed heroes, seem less useful or necessary. Their glory is detracted.

I would suggest, that if the party requests aid that you give them a couple of generic level one or two soldiers that solely use the aid another actions to make the PCs stronger. The players will appreciate the bonus to attacks and defenses enabling them to fight better. In addition, they are not upstaged by a high-level lieutenant-type character.

[Alienist]

I think the answer is lots and lots of minions.

Nothing says 'I'm the badass hero' like climbing over the wall of corpses (allies or enemies, it matters not) to take the smack down to the bad guys.

[Urpriest]

Getting access to the DMGII might be a bit tricky. To those who suggested Companion Characters, what are the advantages of such over just using monster stats?

I like the idea of giving the players control over the guards. The one reason I'm not sold on the idea of making them minions is that I think the players are already a little frustrated with the incompetence of the NPCs in this city.

[Tegu8788]

Then consider making them minions with some degree of damage resistance. That will let them survive a hit, while staying simple and easy to keep track of.

To add a little fun, try and give the players a NPC that fills a different role than the one the player does. So the Fighter gets a Controller, the Cleric a Striker, ...

[Ashdate]

One of my players mentioned a house rule he read somewhere once where you allow minions to make "saving throws" to avoid dying. It might be an option if you're looking for really quick and dirty combat (although it could mean a bunch of dice rolling).

Anyway, companion characters are pretty much just modified monsters. You can pick a monster from one of the manuals, and then modify it (per the DMG) to reduce/increase its level to match the PCs (although keeping it a level behind might be better thematically).

Per the guidelines, ignore recharge powers, throw out powers that require record keeping (such as "save ends" powers and immediate actions), and replace powers as you wish, either using other monsters or PC abilities as a guide. Avoid monsters that can heal the party without needing surges (if you must, make it a daily ability). Companion characters do not benefit from magic item bonuses such as AC and attack bonuses, and can use one magic item power a day, regardless of tier. Give the a handful of healing surges (6 to 9 + con modifier), and reduce their hit points to PC levels (about a 30-40% reduction). For example:

Human Guard (companion)
Level 3 Soldier
Medium natural humanoid (human)
HP 37; Bloodied 19
AC 18; Fortitude 17; Reflex 15; Will 15
Speed 5
Initiative +5
Perception +6

Standard Actions
(melee basic): Halberd (weapon) • At-Will
Attack: Reach 2; +10 vs. AC
Hit: 1d10 + 4 damage, and the target is marked until the end of the human guard’s next turn.

Powerful Strike (weapon) • Encounter
Attack: Reach 2; +10 vs. AC
Hit: 1d10 + 8 damage, and the target is knocked prone.

(ranged basic): Crossbow (weapon) • At-Will
Attack: Ranged 15/30; +9 vs. AC
Hit: 1d8 + 3 damage.

Skills Streetwise +7
Str 16 (+4) Dex 14 (+3) Wis 11 (+1)
Con 15 (+3) Int 10 (+1) Cha 12 (+2)
Alignment any*****Languages Common
Equipment chainmail, halberd, crossbow, crossbow bolts (20)

(© 2010 Wizards of the Coast LLC, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved. This formatted statistics block has been generated using the D&D Adventure Tools.)

[Surrealistik]

A lot of good recommendations have been stated here.

That said, here is an encounter plan I put together. Hopefully it's useful to you:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D0UgPLL4UK2nuRo_ap16Q1HNeUtIsMRCfnW506Iu3Uc/edit#

This was specifically meant for a small village with a perimeter of impromptu barricades strung between the houses. The zombies come in on all sides in groups of 5, with the horde approaching from a random side.

Note that the NPC/Monster damage has been ramped up to be Level * 2 + 8 rather than Level + 8, in order to better scale with PC HP.

[Urpriest]

snip

This raises an interesting question: if you printed that out with Adventure Tools, does that mean Adventure Tools contains the companion character rules? If so, how do I access them?

[Raimun]

Now, why would any D&D-hero worth their salt request NPCs to tag along? Either they might upstage our heroes or they have to see that they don't die... which is an escort mission.

Seriously, though, ask yourself: "Is this NPC mundane or heroic?"

If the former, use "a monster" human (or some other race). Perhaps even a non-minion one.

If the latter, use a PC-class. This should be for named, VIP-NPCs only. People like the warrior prince, the leader of the assassin's guild or the dreaded pirate captain should be this good.

[Ashdate]

This raises an interesting question: if you printed that out with Adventure Tools, does that mean Adventure Tools contains the companion character rules? If so, how do I access them?

Sorry, they don't have the rules in them. That's simply a monster I modified (reducing hit points, raising defenses and damage a little) according to the DMG 2 guidelines.

[Reluctance]

If the latter, use a PC-class. This should be for named, VIP-NPCs only. People like the warrior prince, the leader of the assassin's guild or the dreaded pirate captain should be this good.

Do not do this. PCs are complex precisely because players are only expected to have to mentally juggle one at a time.


Getting access to the DMGII might be a bit tricky. To those who suggested Companion Characters, what are the advantages of such over just using monster stats?

I like the idea of giving the players control over the guards. The one reason I'm not sold on the idea of making them minions is that I think the players are already a little frustrated with the incompetence of the NPCs in this city.

It really depends on the power disparity. It sounds like your players are actively rearing to feel like leaders, so you should totally have an elite squad handy for this purpose. Helping take down the BBEG is a much more effective use of their talents than being more bodies helping to hold back the zombie wave.

Companion character rules basically involve removing or reducing complexity-introducing power. s (E.G: powers that cause statuses are discouraged, powers with recharges are reduced to Encounters to avoid keeping track, and you're encouraged to focus on the most straightforward at-will powers that you can.) The other change involves making the monsters run off of PC-level HP and surges rather than monster-level HP. Baselines being (levelx5)+7+Con HP and 6+ConMod surges, although they're tweaked for certain roles. (Companion monsters should be thought of in PC roles like Striker or Leader rather than monster roles.)

[Adoendithas]

If you want to make one yourself, you can just generate HP and defenses using the formula (will check when I find my DMG2), then pick a couple at-wills, an encounter, a daily, and a utility from player classes. And maybe magic items if you want, for a guard probably not.

[Urpriest]

Hey guys, I managed to dig up a copy of the DMG 2. Thanks for the advice! Hopefully the players won't insist on bringing guards with them and it won't be necessary.

[TheBajaBojo]

I remember a WOTC campaign where you could use an NPC in combat...

BTW, I thought that monsters and players DO follow the same creation rules!

[Adoendithas]

The adventure Dark Heart of Mithrendain, which is free from their site, has the DM running an NPC (with monster stats) with the party. Is that the one you're thinking of?

[Raimun]

Do not do this. PCs are complex precisely because players are only expected to have to mentally juggle one at a time.


Back in the days, all characters, PCs and NPCs alike, were all equally complex and we liked it just fine. Every encounter was uphill too!

[Anxe]

Another way to avoid it, the guards are scared of the vampire and won't go because they don't want to die.

[darkdragoon]

The simplest way is to just give the NPCs an ability or two. Perhaps they all carry holy water.