Save or dies VS. party

[killianh]

In an encounter I had not too long ago the party went up against a necromancer. They snuck past the initial defences and were doing really well. Then they miss one trap, get hit with wail of the banshee, and all but 1 guy is dead. To the point I'm wondering: how fair/common is it to use save or die's against party members?

[Silva Stormrage]

In an encounter I had not too long ago the party went up against a necromancer. They snuck past the initial defences and were doing really well. Then they miss one trap, get hit with wail of the banshee, and all but 1 guy is dead. To the point I'm wondering: how fair/common is it to use save or die's against party members?

I use save or dies all the time against the party. I tend to avoid using it low levels where saves are easy to fail but it is totally fair to use Save or Dies. Though I am wondering why they did not have deathward up when fighting a necromancer O.o

[Deophaun]

IMHO, by the time a whole party gets hit by a SoD, they should have already messed up. Blowing a roll or two will get you hit by a fireball, sure. But blowing a roll while you ignore the tales of the frightful screams that sometimes come from this room as well as the mysterious dead body on the floor? Roll your fort save.

[Silva Stormrage]

IMHO, by the time a whole party gets hit by a SoD, they should have already messed up. Blowing a roll or two will get you hit by a fireball, sure. But blowing a roll while you ignore the tales of the frightful screams that sometimes come from this room as well as the mysterious dead body on the floor? Roll your fort save.

To be fair sometimes the trap isn't well known like that. I am sure the party had no idea there was any trap in the room (Otherwise they did deserve to get hit with it). And a necromancer would remove any corpse that died in the room as well.

[AlanBruce]

I am running a campaign now where the party will be facing some creatures with SOD abilities. I always make sure they get a subtle hint that where they are headed or who they want to battle may prove to be "extremely dangerous and deadly". This usually gets the players paranoid and prepare accordingly. Oftentimes, however, they feel the call for a challenge and rush head in.

Rerolling PCs in the middle of a session can be such a drag.

[Morithias]

I tend to avoid using save or dies unless the party has easy access to resurrection. It's just lacks drama when the guy rolls a 1 and dies.

Now a lot of people say "But it lacks drama when the big bad rolls a 1 and dies"

Yes that is true, but it was the player who cast it, meaning the players CHOSE to invoke the save or die, if the big bad dies, and the other plays are kinda sad at the anti-climax it's not the DM's fault. It's the player who used finger of death.

But when a player puts days, weeks, months, into a character, just to lose it on a single die roll? That's just something that ticks them off. It's one step up from Bolt of Divine Retribution from the skies.

[Deophaun]

To be fair sometimes the trap isn't well known like that.
To be fair I'm suffering from insomnia and so didn't give the best example :smallbiggrin: But, point.

[Mnemnosyne]

Traps that fire off 9th level spells tend to be pretty uncommon regardless. I know the actual rules make them pretty cheap to make, comparative to their actual effect, but those rules are ridiculous and should never be used unless you're intending to take into account the full ramifications of the existence of those rules.

Besides, a trap of a 9th level spell is still pretty expensive even by those rules, especially if it's a resetting trap. If the NPC that set up the trap is going by NPC wealth tables, it costs anywhere from 1/2 to 1/4 of his total wealth in order to create that one resetting trap.

So, a 9th level AOE SoD from a trap? Probably shouldn't exist most of the time. It's just too huge an investment for a single location, doesn't make economic sense. Now, a lower level SoD that makes more economic sense would make a fine trap. Using SoD's when the NPC casts them is also fine. If the players don't have defenses up and don't prevent the enemy from casting, then it's fair game.

[darksolitaire]

Used Phantasmal Killer in certain climatic encounter to add sense of danger. I figured it was unlikely to fail two saves and die to it. Won't ever do it again.:smalleek:

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, I unfortunately think this was some pretty poor planning on the DM's fault.
In a game that is out and out stated to be a major meat grinder, no holds barred, yeah, this would be acceptable, but out of nowhere?
The trouble is save or dies are so binary.
You either die or you don't, and everyone can roll a one.

[Kol Korran]

A similar thing happens with certain monsters, like the gorgon, medusa, bodak and others. Our group have changed most save or dies abilities and spells so that they cause ability damage (or drain on some cases). A significant amount, potnetially able to kill, but with far a lesser chance of outright killing than just a save or die. We also made some Save or suck spells last much shorter, though most times it's still long enough (glitter dust, tasha's hideous laughter)

For example a medusa's glare causes 2d6 or 2d8 (forgot which) dex damage, makes the character heavier, and reduces her speed.

A bodak causes 2d8 con damage and sickens the character.

We only played up to 13th level (Which for us is quite high), so I have no ideas how it might work with higher level spells. I'd imagine they'd either cause more damage or will actually be save or die. Higher level spells after all.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I unfortunately think this was some pretty poor planning on the DM's fault.
In a game that is out and out stated to be a major meat grinder, no holds barred, yeah, this would be acceptable, but out of nowhere?
The trouble is save or dies are so binary.
You either die or you don't, and everyone can roll a one.

Well, there are item-based counters (e.g. Luckblade or reroll items in general) and spell-based counters so the party is capable of making especially Death By 1 fairly unlikely.

Personally? I'm not a huge fan but I'm not averse to using them either. I've lost a level 13 character to a DC 17 Fort-save due to a natural 1; it happens. On the levels where SoDs roll around, so do Resurrection-spells. If the party gets TPKd, well, they get TPKd. Victory must be earned, it's not a given.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, there are item-based counters (e.g. Luckblade or reroll items in general) and spell-based counters so the party is capable of making especially Death By 1 fairly unlikely.

Personally? I'm not a huge fan but I'm not averse to using them either. I've lost a level 13 character to a DC 17 Fort-save due to a natural 1; it happens. On the levels where SoDs roll around, so do Resurrection-spells. If the party gets TPKd, well, they get TPKd. Victory must be earned, it's not a given.
It should be earned, yes, but neither should failure be arbitrary. A Save or die is too arbitrary for my tastes.

[Mithril Leaf]

I like to pick up a planar touchstone for the pride domain and a used luckblade. It makes the chance of rolling a one about .0125%. Still possible, if truly fated.

[Togo]

I try to avoid save or dies, either as a player or as a DM. Counting on getting lucky, and contributing nothing if you don't, isn't great unless you're adventuring solo, or can get your save DC up really high.

[nedz]

I also avoid them, as both a player and a DM.

They just feel cheap, and they're not very dramatic.
They are also quite unreliable.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder nerfed pretty much all of them for exactly this reason. They feel cheap and undramatic.

I think Phantasmal Killer/Weird are the only ones left alone, and you have to fail two saves so you were probably going to die anyway.

[nedz]

I think Phantasmal Killer/Weird are the only ones left alone, and you have to fail two saves so you were probably going to die anyway.

They are also Mind Effecting/Fear based.
Immunities to which are quite common.

Weird has to be the most useless 9th level spell. I ran a monster which had both of these recently, some kind of nightmare tree, I just ignored these entries in the stat block. The monster worked quite well, with its other options.

[Lysander]

SoDs are ok, but the party should have the chance to prepare. There should have been more than one chance to learn about the necromancer's tactics through a gather information check, knowledge check, spot/listen/search, etc.

For example, let's say the party heard a rumor that the necromancer was known to use deadly magical traps. The PCs could have either used defensive magic, or spread out in order to avoid having all of them exposed when a trap goes off so only one person dies. Maybe they could have bought a donkey and made it walked through the dungeon in front of them. Or some other brilliant plan.

Knowledge allows tactics, and tactics is what makes allows PCs to earn victory instead of just play for it in a casino.

[eggs]

"Roll High or Stop Playing" is such a terrible mentality that I almost never use them in laid-back games, except in encounters where I want the players to be jittered.

But if we're playing up the optimization and wargame aspects of the game, I don't drop them infrequently (but swinging for the fences that way is really not a strategy I like to lean on).

[Psyren]

They are also Mind Effecting/Fear based.
Immunities to which are quite common.

For monsters, yes. It's worth noting though that for PF PCs, getting immunity to MA is much harder now. (Even Mind Blank won't do the trick anymore, though it does boost your save.)

[Deepbluediver]

I've never liked SoDs, from either the party or the DM; it seems like a cheap way to make things feel more "dangerous". As an earlier poster said, they're too binary, with no chance to react, or flee, or make new plans. Either you prepare for them ahead of time and they're all but pointless, or you don't and you end up dead.

I don't mind Save or Suck spells, because most of them let you keep participating at least, even if it's in a diminished capacity, and your team can likely get you quickly back into the action after an encounter is over.
Anything good that SoD's might bring to the table in the way of making an encounter more dangerous can be done via a different method that doesn't risk either the DM losing his epic-legacy style BBEG on round 1 or killing 75% of the party due to a bad roll. It's the kind of thing that I could see being used on a very limited basis, like you can only cast a SoD spell using a particular artifact. Something to base a campaign on, not something that every Tom, ****, and Harry has hiding up their sleeve.


For full disclosure, I'm not thrilled with the way magic works in 3.0/3.5 in general, so I'm working on a homebrew version; you can follow the link in my extended sig, if you like.

[nedz]

For monsters, yes. It's worth noting though that for PF PCs, getting immunity to MA is much harder now. (Even Mind Blank won't do the trick anymore, though it does boost your save.)

There's still fear immunity though I note that the ubiquitous banquet only yields +4 for this in PF, unlike 3.5

[GenghisDon]

Trap rules suck in d20

facing L9 spells at L10 or so is a good way to whipe out PC's.

try using spells the PC's could face in opponents; alter the mechanics to make them better if need be, or simply award piddly XP for them & don't worry about most traps counting as an "encounter"

In the OP, if the necromancer WAS high enough level to cast wail of the banshee themself, it's a whole other story. Then I'd presume the group of high enough level to face such traps.

[Eldariel]

Trap rules suck in d20

facing L9 spells at L10 or so is a good way to whipe out PC's.

try using spells the PC's could face in opponents; alter the mechanics to make them better if need be, or simply award piddly XP for them & don't worry about most traps counting as an "encounter"

In the OP, if the necromancer WAS high enough level to cast wail of the banshee themself, it's a whole other story. Then I'd presume the group of high enough level to face such traps.

To be fair, the save DCs of high level spells are fairly tame in trap-form (don't get real stat modifiers to them), and most of the truly potent spells don't really do anything as traps (Shapechange? Time Stop?).

[GenghisDon]

trap: casts shapechange on monster X

monster X mauls party

dungeonscape has some ideas on VHL traps, although the flaws are still there. I'm not sure the above trap could be "legal", but it's probably a bad idea either way.

but the if DC's on items or traps is a problem, boost them.

It's the VHL effects that lower level characters can't counter or come back from that suck.

The trap rules also such worse than "save or die" was my point. Others don't like save or die, but I'm mixed on it. When I started playing D&D save or die happened all the damn time, from L1 on up. We had fun & kept playing anyway, as did many, so it can't always be that bad. Lots of factors make it less desirable these days, primarily the fact making characters takes much longer, I'd guess. That & some, well, let's leave it at that.

Still, CR 6 circle of death is going to be disasterous to groups in that level range (2-7).

[Big Fau]

I dislike killing characters because character creation takes too much time, thus removing the player from IC interaction.

[Spuddles]

I like save or die, and my groups all use them. If we wanted to play easy mode, we'd change systems. I think 4e got rid of most of the dangerous stuff, for instance, and I know PF pulled the teeth out of the more potent effects.

[Deimess]

I try not to use it on my players too much. However, I use them a lot in boss fights to add the feeling of power. For example, in our current campaign, I hadn't used any, but the PCs got themselves into a huge battle and I slung them around like candy on halloween. Half the party died but they got enough money to get everyone a true resurrection and still get some loot out of it. I just usually don't like the idea of someone just keeling over. It's not fun or epic, which are two things D&D should revolve around and always strive to be.

That being said, it is not epic or fun when one of the 10 drow necromancer/priestesses uses finger of death or slay living to kill a party member. It is epic when Azmodeus, Lord of Doom and Death outstretches his hand and tears your soul from your body. In other words, from my experience, PCs feel a lot better about dying if they feel (whether true or not) that their foe or situation was worthy.

Edit: Part of it is also that most of my players are new. In a more experienced group I would probably use them more often.

[demigodus]

If the DM is going to be using save or dies, it definitely shouldn't be sprung on the party. I don't mean "if they make the right skill checks, they can prepare" either. I mean, the party should be informed, out of character, either when making characters or when they are at a magic mart, that the DM will be using save or dies on them. Because the two ways to deal with SoD's is to either walk around immune to everything (which, in other games might be a bad idea, since a lot of problems seem to start from the DM being unable to even scratch a specific PC), or to bring back up character sheets. Making characters takes forever in 3.5, unlike older editions. You can't just make a character mid-session...

[irbaboon]

IMHO the DM's soul purpose is to provide a challenging and entertaining time for all players involved. sometimes a player gets nailed to the wall by a freak happening but for the most part he job is to almost win but not. So in this case (unless he's planning an after life session) save or die's against the party on the DMs behalf = epic DM fail. thats just my opinion but hey I'd say its pretty on point.

[Karoht]

If there is a rather large party (lets just say 8+) with lots of people, having one party member die isn't such a big deal, the party will probably fight on and probably still win, and res the party member after, so with larger parties I find they become a bit more fair. Same thing with stat damage.

Dominates are usually a bit less effective with large parties because you can usually spare someone to hold up the Dominated person (Grapple, Hold Person, etc), where a party of 4 loses half it's strength if one person is dominated and one person has to deal with it. Assuming of course that someone actually has the skillset to deal with such a thing, mind you.

For a standard party of 4-6 or less? It means someone dies, and it tends to be a huge blow to the party. Because the party tends to flee, it could mean that person stays dead for a while, or perminently, due to lack of opportunity to recover the body.

[GenghisDon]

large(r) party sizes were also default in older editions.

For good or ill, d20 must use them more sparingly, or else see the fun leech completely out of the game.

I don't think it's fun to have to walk around with spells X, Y & Z on, or else perish instantly, either.

Besides, that's no true defense...trap makers will just attach a dispel magic or greater dispel, ect, as an initial debuff if such tactics are commonplace. No one will bother making traps that aren't effective for long.

Debuff traps, in fact, are a VERY good idea to use, just to keep casters from having too easy a time of things or avoiding item expenses. Also great (esp anti magic) for making mundane traps deadly all over again. Step into anti magic + pit & poisoned spikes=sadness.