seven sins/Virtues thoughts...

[krossbow]

Anyways, i was building a homebrew world wherein there were seven types of demons each built around the seven deadly sins; In mirror of this, i was also making the opposing angels be built around mirroring them.



However, I'm trying to do something a bit different and rather than have them be 180 degree Opposites of the seven deadly sins, rather have the angels be an example of how a Vice stems from an inherently good trait.


By this i mean, i have Justice in opposition to Wrath (As angels who hate evil and injustice and bring fiery retribution upon evil), valor for Pride (As angels who work towards their perfection in order to protect others and handle the hard costs of battle so others don't have to), Restraint for Sloth, love for Lust, ect.





And this is where the point of my thread comes from; I'm having a bit of trouble for Greed, Envy and gluttony. While i know a premise for greed (Specifically the old economic premise that Greed is inherently good in proper moderation as its the entire motivation of "good" acts of industriousness), completely blank on the other two.



Any thoughts?

[00dlez]

Unfortuanatly, my first thought for all three was some sort of poverty or lack of excess, not leading to a lot of diversity.

Just looking at the antonyms in a thesaurus, though:

Envy: Kindness, good will

Greed: Generosity

Gluttony: ... Fasting? not really a virtue.

[falloutimperial]

There already exists in theology the seven holy virtues, which are in opposition to the seven deadly sins. They are as follows.

Chastity =/= Lust
Temperance =/= Gluttony
Charity =/= Greed
Diligence =/= Sloth
Patience =/= Wrath
Kindness =/= Envy
Humility =/= Pride

I'm not sure if all of these would make good angel-exemplars.

[krossbow]

There already exists in theology the seven holy virtues, which are in opposition to the seven deadly sins. They are as follows.

Chastity =/= Lust
Temperance =/= Gluttony
Charity =/= Greed
Diligence =/= Sloth
Patience =/= Wrath
Kindness =/= Envy
Humility =/= Pride

I'm not sure if all of these would make good angel-exemplars.

I know of those, but i don't find them fitting what i'm going for. Each of those is a direct opposite from the seven sins, and i'm aiming for something a little out of the box.

Kind of like looking at how the Red lanterns exist: Punishment of evil actions and injustices are right, but being overwhelmed by anger is a wrong and a corruption of righteous anger. Each red lantern has a very legitimate reason to dispense punishment for the crime committed against them (Justice), but each of them loses themself in hatred (wrath).


For Greed i was thinking of something like "Value", in the vein of "So you think that money is the root of all evil? Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?"





Hmm. How about something like "Joy" for gluttony? Gluttony can only exist via overindulgence in something that gives pleasure, which isn't in and of itself evil unless you overindulge.

[Eldan]

If you want to mirror demons, shouldn't you use archons, not angels?

If you need some inspiration, we had an old project here on these fora to redo Mount Celestia. We tried to homebrew seven lantern archons for one of the virtue sets. Maybe you can still find it.

If you go by one of the religiously inspired sets of vices they are all very much in relation to god, by the way. Invidia is not just bad because you want what someone else has. It's bad because you want more than god has given you, Ira is wrath against god's judgement, and so on for Luxuria through Acedia.

[Psyren]

Hmm. How about something like "Joy" for gluttony? Gluttony can only exist via overindulgence in something that gives pleasure, which isn't in and of itself evil unless you overindulge.

"Overindulgence of something that gives pleasure" can apply just as easily to Lust and Greed though. And even Sloth, if you like snoozing/procrastinating.

Anyway, objection aside, I do agree with you. I don't see anything particularly virtuous about staying chaste for instance. There's an unfortunate implication there that physical intimacy of any kind make you less pure regardless of context. So new virtues is a concept I can get behind, at least for some of them. (Humility <---> Pride is good enough to stand by my estimation.)

The ones I would let stand, aside from H<->P would be Charity to Greed, Diligence to Sloth, Patience to Wrath and Charity to Greed. The rest could use tweaking.

[Eldan]

That's not really what Castitas means.
It means a general concept of purity. Good hygiene, staying away from intoxicants, appropriate behaviour and even honesty.
Sexual conduct is really only secondarily added on top of that.

Likewise, Luxuria, the opposite, is a very wide field that does not just apply to sexual lust. It's pretty much a strong desire for anything you don't deserve.

Edit: my favourite vice has always been Depression. It just doesn't seem to fit on the list all that much :smalltongue:

[Eldonauran]

Now that I've thought about it (and googled those thoughts).


Greed could be: Ambition, aspiration or purpose.
Envy could be: Desire to protect what is yours/given to your charge. A wariness or watchfulness.
Gluttony could be as simply as Abundance.

[Morithias]

I'm 90% this was covered in a dragon magazine...the one with the sexy demon chick on the cover...306 I think it was.

I'll find it and check back

Edit: Yup that's the one. Check it out, it has rules for the 7 sins and 7 virtues and so on

[jackattack]

Greed might be opposed by charity -- not monetary handouts, but volunteering and working to help others get what they need to get by.

Gluttony might be opposed by sharing, giving others what you already have. Awfully similar to charity, though.

I've always had a problem with Envy as a cardinal sin, as I differentiate between envy (a desire to have what others have without depriving them) and jealousy (a desire to have what others have by depriving them). Again, this can be opposed by helping others achieve their goals, or teaching them to achieve them on their own. Mentoring, perhaps.

---

BTW, there are four cardinal virtues:
Prudence
Justice
Temperence
and
Fortitude
They were originally put forth by Plato.

There are three theological virtues:
Faith
Hope
and
Charity (or Love)
They were originally put forth in the Bible.

You've already accounted for Justice, Temperence, Fortitude, and Love.

Faith for Greed? Lack of spiritual riches being compensated for with material riches?

Hope for Envy? A desire to receive turns into a desire to receive all, and for others to go without?

Prudence for Gluttony? A lack of consideration for consequences leading to self-destructive over-indulgence?

[CodeRed]

That's not really what Castitas means.
It means a general concept of purity. Good hygiene, staying away from intoxicants, appropriate behaviour and even honesty.
Sexual conduct is really only secondarily added on top of that.

Likewise, Luxuria, the opposite, is a very wide field that does not just apply to sexual lust. It's pretty much a strong desire for anything you don't deserve.

Edit: my favourite vice has always been Depression. It just doesn't seem to fit on the list all that much :smalltongue:

Depression isn't a good word to use for that sin. More accurate would be Despair. Despair was seen as a sin because it created a belief that your problems/issues were greater than God's ability to fix them. A bunch of old theological scholars and churchgoers condemned people for having what we now know to be clinical depression (which is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain, not just being sad) as Despair.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Real world religion is an inappropriate topic for this forum, even when it intersects a gaming topic. This isn't really a discussion that can proceed here.