"Aggro" abilities in 3.5/PF

[Wonton]

I know of the Knight from PHB 2, but are there any other abilities or feats that would allow someone to discourage monsters from attacking his allies? One thing I think 4e did right is allowing tanks to "mark" people (making it so they get a -2 to hit anyone that's not the tank), although the part where the tank tank gets a free AoO if the marked target attacks anyone but the tank might be a little excessive.

So. Are there are some 3.5/PF abilities that have a similar mechanic?

[eggs]

Check out a White Raven/Devoted Spirit Crusader.

EDIT:
It gets stances like Iron Guard's Glare, which give big penalties for adjacent opponents attacking the Crusader's allies and maneuvers to grant Allies AC boosts and extra actions, or to prevent enemies from getting attacks against them.

[Tvtyrant]

There is a Cleric spell, Invite Gift (Or Entice Gift, I forget), which makes the enemies affected walk towards you and present you with items they are holding in their hands. If you use some DC shenanigans, you can force all of your enemies to use up their movements and items.

[Andvare]

PF has the Antagonize feat.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize

[VGLordR2]

There's a Commoner only flaw called Delicious. All monsters must attack you, with no save or anything. Your DM is unlikely to allow it, though, because it comes from the same Dragon article as the Chicken Infested flaw.

There's also a feat called Goad.

[Coidzor]

Well, it's not aggro, but it is sort of thematically similar in 3.5 when one is reducing opponents to cowering.

PF's antagonize is probably the most potent example of aggro though. I'm almost positive that someone has backported some principles of the 4e marking system into 3.P though.

[Wonton]

Check out a White Raven/Devoted Spirit Crusader.

EDIT:
It gets stances like Iron Guard's Glare, which give big penalties for adjacent opponents attacking the Crusader's allies and maneuvers to grant Allies AC boosts and extra actions, or to prevent enemies from getting attacks against them.

Okay, this is an aside, but is there like a "Tome of Battle for dummies" guide out there? I just get confused whenever I try reading it, which is probably why all of my characters end up being spellcaster or rogue types, not fighters.

[Andvare]

Okay, this is an aside, but is there like a "Tome of Battle for dummies" guide out there? I just get confused whenever I try reading it, which is probably why all of my characters end up being spellcaster or rogue types, not fighters.

There is. It is called "Tome of Battle for Dummies".

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871270/Tome_of_Battle_for_Dummies

From your friend (http://www.giyf.com/).

:smalltongue:


Edit: Dunno if it actually explains the book like you want though, it is more of a handbook style.
BTW, no insult meant, it was just funny and too good an opportunity to pass.

[Serafina]

Tome of Battle isn't that complicated.

First, determine your Initiator level: All your levels in ToB-classes together + 1/2 your level in all other classes together.

Second, take something that grants you maneuvers. Such as levels in a ToB-class or theManeuver-training feat. What level those maneuvers can have depends on your Initiator-level (so at level 7 you could take 3rd-level maneuvers, at 13 5th-level one or such). Some maneuvers have prerequisites that require you to have other maneuvers in the same discipline , but you can fulfill that in one go (such as taking two maneuvers as prerequisites for each other).

Third, you can prepare a number of these maneuvers. That's shown in your ToB-class table, and different sources stack. A prepared maneuver can be used, an unprepared one can't.

Fourth, you use a maneuver. How that is done and what it does is described in the maneuvers description. The maneuver is now expended.

Fifth, you can recover a expended maneuver. That always happens automatically a few minutes after combat is over, but there are ways to do that in combat.
If you are a Warblade, you can do it by making a full-attack action, or by spending a standard action doing nothing.
If you are a Swordmage you can only recover one maneuver as a standard action (i think), or take a feat that allows you to recover all maneuvers instead (and swap out which ones you have prepared, very handy).
A Crusader recovers maneuvers randomly from a pool, think of it like drawing cards from a deck.
If you don't have any of these classes you can't recover maneuvers in combat.

Sixth, when you take levels in a ToB-class you can swap lower-level maneuvers for higher-level ones you can take

Seventh, there are stances. Stances aren't maneuvers - you don't have to prepare them, they can not be acquired in place of maneuvers and so on - you can only use them to fulfil prerequisites for maneuvers (so if you have one Iron Heart Maneuver and one Iron Heart Stance, you could take a Maneuver that requires two Iron heart maneuvers).
Stances are acquired by taking ToB-classes or per feat. Note that the first stance you acquire from a ToB-class must always be a 1st-level stance, so getting higher-level stances requires more dipping.
Stances are activated as a swift action and stay active until you switch them off or to another stance.



It's really not that hard. If you want some maneuvers, simply wait a few levels (to raise your initiatior level) in some other class, and then take a single level of Swordsage, Crusader or Warblade. Voila, you get some nice maneuvers and a Stance.
If you want more, do more dipping.
You're really missing out on some of the best 3.5 material if you play without ToB, and keeping track of Maneuvers is no more complicated than keeping track of spells.

[Telonius]

Divine Prankster from Races of Stone gets the "Enrage Enemies" ability at 5th level. It's makes the target Will Save vs your perform check, and it works similar to the Knight's ability, but with more restrictions: the target has to close to melee range and attack you melee. Hilariously effective against a Wizard or Sorcerer that happens to fail its save.

[Novawurmson]

The Pathfinder Paladin gets a few "aggro" spells - Knight's Calling, Compel Hostility...the Pathfinder Barbarian gets Come and Get Me (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/come-and-get-me-ex), which strongly encourages enemies to attack it. There's a few more abilities like this (penalties for attacking anyone else/bonuses to attacking you) that I can't remember off the top of my head.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd say after the first AoO, Come And Get Me strongly discourages the enemy from attacking the Barbarian. :smalltongue:

The best aggro ability I know of is a 2nd level arcane spell (cause casters do everything better; it's a rule), Mindless Rage (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-adventurer--54/mindless-rage--394/) (most up to date printing is in Spell Compendium).

I mean...cripes...

"...it can do nothing but focus on engaging you in personal physical combat."

"If the subject doesn't threaten you, it must move at up to twice its speed, ending its movement as close to you as possible.
If it moves close enough with a single move to threaten you, it may stop and make a melee attack against you as normal."

"...the subject can't make ranged attacks, cast spells, or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger, or spell completion to function."

"The subject can't make any attack against a creature other than you."


What more could you possibly want from an aggro ability?

No save or SR, I suppose. Oh well, can't have it all.

[Mari01]

Okay, this is an aside, but is there like a "Tome of Battle for dummies" guide out there? I just get confused whenever I try reading it, which is probably why all of my characters end up being spellcaster or rogue types, not fighters.

You understand casting, but not the maneuver system? That's a bit backwards considering maneuvers are much easier to keep track of. What part exactly confuses you about them? I'm certain others and I can break it down for you.

[NamelessNPC]

PF has the Armor of insults (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/armor-of-insults), which compels enemies to attack you for 7 rounds. DC 16, mind affecting sonic effect, only for creatures with a spoken language

[JadenKnight]

Check out the Pathfinder Cavalier base class or Samurai alternate base class. Their challenge ability is quite tasty.

As a swift action you challenge a single target in sight, you take a -2 penalty to AC against other targets, gain a bonus to damage = to your Level against your target as well as other bonuses depending on your choice of optional class features.

While it doesn't force your opponent to attack you, you definitely do become a much higher threat to it, forcing it to choose to either deal with you or just let you hack away at it.

Some feats to consider based off of Combat Reflexes:
Backstab - (AoO on an enemy you flank who attacks an ally instead of you.
Karmic Strike - -4 AC, AoO on any target that hits you.

Stay in flanking with an ally esp. a rogue and not only will your rogue love you for letting them sneak attack, you will get to punish the enemy whether they hit you or any ally.

If you add the Iaijutsu Focus skill (make a skill check vs. a flat-footed opponent to gain a number of extra d6s of damage depending on your skill check result (1d6-9d6) your weapon must be sheathed before making the attack) and the Iaijutsu Master PrC (which allows you to add your wis mod to each die of iaujutsu damage) along with the Samurai challenge ability, and the combat reflexes feat tree (Backstab, Karmic Strike and Mercurial Strike (can AoO while while weapon is sheathed, draw your weapon and attack, enemies are treated as flat-footed against the attack.) and you have a very very deadly Damage Tank with a fairly unique style.

One more thought
Some people have brought up Paladin Spells, but not the class itself. In the Pathfinder version, a Paladin's Smite lasts for the entire encounter against a single target and adds your Cha mod to your attacks AND your AC against the target, your Paladin Level to damage, AND you ignore all DR on the target. That combined with the right spells makes for some fantastic aggro-based tanking.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You understand casting, but not the maneuver system? That's a bit backwards considering maneuvers are much easier to keep track of. What part exactly confuses you about them? I'm certain others and I can break it down for you.

The only confusing thing about ToB is trying to make an out-of-the-box high level character, rather than growing one over time as you normally would.

Just had to stat up a 20th level martial adept, and the hoops you jump through with the maneuver swapping and trading up in order to meet the often high pre-reqs for maneuvers known on the upper level maneuvers can be really complicated. A warblade that wants to actually have as many 9th level maneuvers as the rules allow him to have (+1 at levels 17 and 19, and swap outs at 18 and 20, total of 4) has to do some super crazy major hoop-jumping-through of building up the required maneuver and stance numbers, and then gradually swapping out the lower level ones he used to qualify for X high level maneuver so he can then afford to get Y high level maneuver later on.

[Mari01]

The only confusing thing about ToB is trying to make an out-of-the-box high level character, rather than growing one over time as you normally would.

Just had to stat up a 20th level martial adept, and the hoops you jump through with the maneuver swapping and trading up in order to meet the often high pre-reqs for maneuvers known on the upper level maneuvers can be really complicated. A warblade that wants to actually have as many 9th level maneuvers as the rules allow him to have (+1 at levels 17 and 19, and swap outs at 18 and 20, total of 4) has to do some super crazy major hoop-jumping-through of building up the required maneuver and stance numbers, and then gradually swapping out the lower level ones he used to qualify for X high level maneuver so he can then afford to get Y high level maneuver later on.

Yea, that's a 20th level character. How could keeping track of known spells/ memorized spells/ amount of memorized spells cast be more difficult than that for a 20th level (prepared) caster? Not to mention spontaneous casters have similar swapping out rules, just without the caveat of X requires 3 Y's.

[Wonton]

Tome of Battle isn't that complicated.

/snip

Thanks! That's more like what I was looking for, although I did read Chapter 3 last night and that explained it pretty well too. They really should have put that chapter first, because it's much more important than the "Classes" chapter to understanding the system. :smallannoyed: Now, I just need to get around to reading Incarnum one of these days...\


While it doesn't force your opponent to attack you, you definitely do become a much higher threat to it, forcing it to choose to either deal with you or just let you hack away at it..

Here's the thing. Aggro-based tanking, as you describe it, only works as long as the DM allows it to work. Sure, fluff-wise, if the melee fighter is doing lots of damage and he's in your face and would AoO anyone trying to move past him to get to the wizard - most enemies would just attack the fighter. But if the DM suddenly decides that he wants the wizard dead, there's nothing (aside from Combat Reflexes tripper builds...) that'll help the tank defend his wizard.

This probably highlights a bigger problem with D&D, which is that due to lack of healing and tanking abilities, every encounter essentially becomes a DPS race, and later on, a burst/CC race akin to rocket tag (first spellcaster to get a turn and use some sort of AoE stun/fear/nauseate spell just wins the battle). I'm sorry for using so many WoW terms, but they do know how to design towards a good encounter, something which the D&D designers apparently didn't think about when they made things like Color Spray.

But anyway, that's too much of a tangent for now. Good stuff in this thread, the Iron Guard Stance is more or less exactly what I wanted.


The Pathfinder Paladin gets a few "aggro" spells - Knight's Calling, Compel Hostility...the Pathfinder Barbarian gets Come and Get Me (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/come-and-get-me-ex), which strongly encourages enemies to attack it. There's a few more abilities like this (penalties for attacking anyone else/bonuses to attacking you) that I can't remember off the top of my head.

Hmm... Compel Hostility is pretty good, as one casting probably lasts the whole combat. But Knight's Calling taunts one enemy for one turn by sacrificing your turn... and has Will negates? Seems kinda like a waste of a turn.

[Serafina]

The other part of tanking is of course reducing the effect of attacks on your enemies.
The PF-Paladin gets a couple of nice abilities there:
A Sacred Shields Bastion of Good (which replaces Smite Evil) makes one enemy deal half damage against anyone but you, while you gain a large amount of deflection-AC against him. No save or way to get out of it, swift-action activate.
With an Oath of Loyalties Loyal Oath (also replaces Smite Evil) you can grant an adjactent ally your charisma-bonus as a sacred bonus to AC and Saves - again no way to counter it other than seperating you from your charge, and also a swift action.

I must admit that i generally don't like aggro-effects all hat much. They always induce a "why doesn't he just attack the squishy caster"-effect in me (though of course a proper high-level caster isn't squishy, but that another problem). Sure, some effecs are outright magical mind control, but a lot of them aren't.
But if you pile on stuff like the above, you give the enemy an actual reason to attack you without being the guy who dishes out the most damage. Sure, he can still chose to attack others, but then he pays a price for it.

[lsfreak]

Something I just stumbled across is that a confused creature is forced to attack a creature that attacked them the previous round. While I doubt you can find a reliable source of confusion, it's something to keep in mind.

Crusaders can semi-force someone to attack, as stated, using Iron Guard Glare as a base. Throw in more standard defensive things like, say, the shielding maneuvers, Intimidation optimization, and the Devoted Spirit tactical feat and you're good to go.

Homebrew, I know Person Man's hexblade has an option where the cursed creature must include the hexblade in any offensive action, something I really like as an aggro-but-not-aggro effect.

Some of the "light" mind controls could work. Suggesting they attack you is likely to illicit a penalty to the save, especially with smart use of glamored armor.

EDIT: Hindering Opportunist + Stalwart Defender, feats from PHB2. The first lets you replace an AoO with Aid Another, the second is that anyone who attacks an ally lets you sacrifice an AoO to Aid Another for +2 AC, but is limited to once per provoking creature. I thought the second just offered an AoO, which would probably be closer to what you had in mind.

[eggs]

Something I just stumbled across is that a confused creature is forced to attack a creature that attacked them the previous round. While I doubt you can find a reliable source of confusion, it's something to keep in mind.
There's that Monk PrC from Slaughtergarde that can inflict no-save confusion on anything it hurts as a swift action. Could be a fun option in the mid-levels.

[Wonton]

Something I just stumbled across is that a confused creature is forced to attack a creature that attacked them the previous round. While I doubt you can find a reliable source of confusion, it's something to keep in mind.

Hmm... a Gunslinger using Targeting: Head deals normal damage and confuses the target for 1 round with no save. So the 7th-level Gun Tank can essentially "taunt" targets, at the cost of 1 grit point per round. I like it. :smallbiggrin:

[lsfreak]

Hmm... a Gunslinger using Targeting: Head deals normal damage and confuses the target for 1 round with no save. So the 7th-level Gun Tank can essentially "taunt" targets, at the cost of 1 grit point per round. I like it. :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately, might not work, and I didn't word it the best either.
"Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes."
So unless you're also getting an attack off after you render it confused, it probably doesn't work. If you can, go for it :smallsmile:

[Wonton]

Unfortunately, might not work, and I didn't word it the best either.
"Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes."
So unless you're also getting an attack off after you render it confused, it probably doesn't work. If you can, go for it :smallsmile:

The ability does damage AND confuses. So it would count as an attack.

[sdream]

I'm not a big fan of importing MMO roles to tabletop, but I happened to notice inquisitors get a few spells and abilities that penalize enemies for attacking anyone but them.

[lsfreak]

The ability does damage AND confuses. So it would count as an attack.

I don't know the ability at question. You would have to have the confusion effect in place before the damage, which 100% wouldn't work with "if the creature takes damage, they are confused" instead of "if the attack is successful, they are confused." If they happen simultaneously, I'd probably rule against it working, but I'm willing to admit RAW is ambiguous (unless I've forgotten a rule similar to stacking, order as most beneficial).