Is this a terrible houserule?

[Tvtyrant]

In the interest of increasing character options I was thinking of modifying templates so that they were more like prestige classes, and gain either a d4 or d6 HD along with the template when it is taken (as opposed to no HD). Would this have negative consequences I am not forseeing?

[DementedFellow]

Level one characters who are unaffected by Sleep spells since they have several +0 LA templates.

The better question is why do you feel this is necessary?

[Tvtyrant]

Level one characters who are unaffected by Sleep spells since they have several +0 LA templates.

The better question is why do you feel this is necessary?
Because templates with LA tend to be ignored, because you lose too many levels. This would make a +3 template less horrific, since you don't lose out on saves and BaB as much. I would probably leave LA+0 without HD, since that is a straight buff.

[kardar233]

I've been playing with a house rule where any type-specifying template (whether it's change-to or requires) consists of HD of that type, rather than LA dead levels. Someone taking Half-Dragon takes it over 3 levels of Dragon HD, which is pretty tempting for a melee character who wants Flight or something. Outsider LA aren't anything to scoff at either.

Other templates get their HD type decided on a case-by-case basis, and particularly powerful templates (like Half-Minotaur or Divine Minion) take LA the normal way.

[ericgrau]

I think hp is the bigger issue at low level. The ability scores often fill in the attack bonus and saves. At high level optimization level is the main issue, as in levels are worth so much that LA isn't worth the benefits. Then in high optimization groups you simply reduce LA across the board to compensate.

Adding some hp for each LA or reducing LA for the first couple levels or so could work. If you already reduced LA due to high optimization, this would be on top of that.

EDIT: HD might provide a buff similar to LA reduction, but it's too arbitrary. Especially once you change it based on creature type. For it to be the proper buff for your particular group would be a matter of blind luck... unless you carefully tailor the benefits of HD to some appropriate amount with all this in mind.

[Tvtyrant]

I think hp is the bigger issue at low level. The ability scores often fill in the attack bonus and saves. At high level optimization level is the main issue, as in levels are worth so much that LA isn't worth the benefits. Then in high optimization groups you simply reduce LA across the board to compensate.

Adding some hp for each LA or reducing LA for the first couple levels or so could work. If you already reduced LA due to high optimization, this would be on top of that.

Makes sense. I already conflate monster HD and LA (unless its a full casting monster >_>), so this would make sense.

[Reluctance]

Assuming that they're full, proper HD, it'd interact weirdly with La buyoff and skill-focused creatures. (Since the latter have skill bonuses that assume you'll have fewer levels and thus fewer max ranks.) The former is an optional rule while the latter isn't too bad considering what optimization can already do, so I'm not seeing the gamebreaking.

Everything else - the HP, BAB, saves and skill ranks, aren't enough to counteract the drawbacks already carried by LA. Melee types already get good mileage out of their HD. It's the lack of class features - something you're not covering - where the real power issue pops up.

(Okay, it also gets a little wonky around HD-based SR. Same idea. The weak points are relatively minor and easy to spot.)

[sonofzeal]

It's not perfect, but I think it works. The occasional issues are relatively minor, and generally less than the issues doing it the "proper" way.

However, I wouldn't use HD of the type. Given the massive variation in the value of various types, this will overvalue some templates and relatively undervalue others. A flat set across all types would be less problematic.

[Spuddles]

It's not perfect, but I think it works. The occasional issues are relatively minor, and generally less than the issues doing it the "proper" way.

However, I wouldn't use HD of the type. Given the massive variation in the value of various types, this will overvalue some templates and relatively undervalue others. A flat set across all types would be less problematic.

A flat HD set or perhaps bring able to choose between expert or warrior HD to accompany the template.

For lower OP games, or at least non-full casters, expect to see a lot more templates in play.

[sonofzeal]

A flat HD set or perhaps bring able to choose between expert or warrior HD to accompany the template.

For lower OP games, or at least non-full casters, expect to see a lot more templates in play.
Yep, this seems fair. I was going to suggest the generic equivalents (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#expert), but plain Expert and Warrior work fine and might be simpler.

[Salanmander]

If you said that all LA get turned into hitdice that are something like d6, 3/4 BAB (maybe 1/2...some of those stat bonuses are quite good), good ref save, and 4+int skills, I don't really see any issues arising. It's sufficiently mediocre that it will still hurt compared to a level in your preferred class, but it solves the problem of just having way too few hitpoints.

[Novawurmson]

I essentially gave a Werewolf player of mine some animal hit dice when he took the werewolf progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a); we tweaked it in other ways as well, though.

[Eldonauran]

Why give HD at all? I'd suggest giving bonus HP based on the creature type and allow the LA to stack with HD to determine bonus hitpoints derived from a high CON score.

Assume level 1 character, human fighter:

+0 LA -> No bonus HP (d10+ConMod) as normal
+1 LA -> add 1d8 (1d10+1d8+2xConMod)

Taking a template that changes your type? Recalculate bonus HP based on the new type.

This prevents BAB, save and skill point abuse that come with additional HD. There has to be a downside to taking a template, not just a 'minor irratation' that bonus HD would go a long way to alleviate.

[Spuddles]

Why give HD at all? I'd suggest giving bonus HP based on the creature type and allow the LA to stack with HD to determine bonus hitpoints derived from a high CON score.

Assume level 1 character, human fighter:

+0 LA -> No bonus HP (d10+ConMod) as normal
+1 LA -> add 1d8 (1d10+1d8+2xConMod)

Taking a template that changes your type? Recalculate bonus HP based on the new type.

This prevents BAB, save and skill point abuse that come with additional HD. There has to be a downside to taking a template, not just a 'minor irratation' that bonus HD would go a long way to alleviate.

Most of the playground wants to see the game balanced around beguiler, warlock, dread necromancer, and warblade, not the fighter and monk. When you're actually getting class levels and don't have 110% dependence on itemization, losing class levels hurts.

Your special rules are just needlessly complicated. Getting actual HD means you have more appropriate ranks in skills, HP, saves, and vs HD based effects.

[Eldonauran]

Most of the playground wants to see the game balanced around beguiler, warlock, dread necromancer, and warblade, not the fighter and monk. When you're actually getting class levels and don't have 110% dependence on itemization, losing class levels hurts.

Seems to me that if taking a template is going to hurt you more than help, you probably shouldn't do it. Besides, I don't recall seeing that actual information in the thread.


Your special rules are just needlessly complicated. Getting actual HD means you have more appropriate ranks in skills, HP, saves, and vs HD based effects.

Apologies. I do not find the extra HP 'needlessly complicated'. It seems quite forward and simple to me. You gain hp as if you took a racial level/HD, but no other benefits of doing so. Seems as complicated, if not less so, as going up a level. Perhaps you can explain why it is needlessly complicated and we can work on it?

[Lord.Sorasen]

Seems to me that if taking a template is going to hurt you more than help, you probably shouldn't do it. Besides, I don't recall seeing that actual information in the thread.



Apologies. I do not find the extra HP 'needlessly complicated'. It seems quite forward and simple to me. You gain hp as if you took a racial level/HD, but no other benefits of doing so. Seems as complicated, if not less so, as going up a level. Perhaps you can explain why it is needlessly complicated and we can work on it?

I'd call it complicated because it adds an extra rule. Essentially, the game already talks about all the different ways to gain non-temporary hit points. We have HD, we have the toughness feat, we have constitution per HD. The game works very much on a hit dice system.

Therefor it seems logical to continue on this trend. It does create some issues for the fighter, true, but the fighter has been in desperate need of some utility that would come from gaining a bit more from a template. It's of note that templates wouldn't help out full casters more than it'd hurt them. But the "half-dragon" template would be fantastic for a fighter or barbarian.

It also makes it a bit more viable, that is to say, less hurt, for a caster. I could see a dragon themed sorcerer gain quite a bit from the half-dragon template, eventually turning into a gish, without having to deal with a spell progression now several levels behind the wizard with only a few hp to say for it.