Spells and Swords Class

[Eugenides]

So I've just started DMing a 3.5 campaign for newbies, as in my first time DMing and all of my PC's first time ever touching the game. I'm fairly familiar with the game rules-wise, but I decided to see if anyone here could come up with a better answer than I had, as these forums seem to be rather knowledgeable about the game (understatement, anyone?).

Since everyone is new, I'm trying to keep it from being overwhelming, while still trying to give them options. For that reason, I've limited the game to Core and the Complete series, and instead of having them read through all the classes, I ask them their play style and then suggest various classes.

So one of my players said they want a character that can be a melee fighter, but throw spells into the mix. Recommendations for this? They seemed fairly open to either divine or arcane when I explained the differences.

I was thinking Cleric, Warmage, Warlock, Paladin or maybe Druid, which I mentioned to the player. They seemed most interested in Warmage. However, are there any well-known builds or classes that I'm not thinking of off the top of my head that would actually make this work in a viable way? Keep in mind that the party itself is far from optimal (the other three are a Barbarian, a Ranged Scout and a TWF Rogue, none of them even close to optimized.

Thanks guys.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What he wants is the Duskblade base class from Player's Handbook II. It's actually an extremely good book to allow for every character, especially weaker melee types like the Fighter due to the feats it offers.

[INoKnowNames]

I'd like to note that the Bard can be an incredibly affective melee combatant that also uses spells, and while capable of being optimised quite a bit, is usually a rather friendly option. Isn't Hexblade in Complete Warrior?

[Spuddles]

Seconding duskblade.

Warmage is not at all good at being a warrior. A specialist or focused specialist wizard or sorcerer at low levels could probably do better- troglodyte form with alter self, shield, mage armor get you an AC of 24 if your dex is 10. Use fist of stone to get a decent melee attack.

Depending on gear and rolls, a cleric with high str and full plate is an adequate spell casting and melee warrior.

Another, albeit overpowered option, is the mystic ranger from dragon magazine. You get spellcasting from level 1 at sorcerer progression (capping at 5th level spells at level 10) at the cost of your animal companion. Mysric ranger is a highly competent ranger, caster, and skill monkey.

[LordBlades]

Another, albeit overpowered option, is the mystic ranger from dragon magazine. You get spellcasting from level 1 at sorcerer progression (capping at 5th level spells at level 10) at the cost of your animal companion. Mysric ranger is a highly competent ranger, caster, and skill monkey.

How is mystic ranged overpowered? You get spellcasting from the Ranger list which is not that awesome tbh. It's no where near the same league as a cleric or wizard.

[killianh]

I'll throw a third in for duskblade. Another good route (if you're know the rules) is psychic warrior.

Fighter 1/wizard 5/Abjurant champion 5/spellsword 5/X4 is nice and simple too without being overpowered. I'd also recommend looking up Gish handbooks as well, since that's the commonly used term for a D&D magic swordsman

[yugi24862]

How is mystic ranged overpowered? You get spellcasting from the Ranger list which is not that awesome tbh. It's no where near the same league as a cleric or wizard.

The main overpoweredness comes when you use the sword of thye arcane order feat, which allows you to prepear wizard spells. Also the fact you can add wildshape into the mix, so your a full BAB d10 wildshaping sorcerer with a spellbook. Sound overpowered to you?

[LordBlades]

The main overpoweredness comes when you use the sword of thye arcane order feat, which allows you to prepear wizard spells. Also the fact you can add wildshape into the mix, so your a full BAB d10 wildshaping sorcerer with a spellbook. Sound overpowered to you?

Nope. It still caps up at 5 level spells. Also, it's strictly worse than a druid in both spellcasting and wild shaping.

I just found it weird somebody would call a mystic ranger overpowered in the same post he talks about clerics and wizards.

[Mithril Leaf]

Of course, in E6, the wildshape mystic ranger is overpowered. I in fact just finished making an anthromorphic bat one with full BAB, spells off the ranger and wizard lists and the ability to totally dump strength.

[molten_dragon]

Bard can do what he's looking for, though it certainly isn't a 'traditional' gish.
Hexblade can do what he's looking for, though it's pretty weak.
Duskblade does it better if you're willing to include PHB2 into your game.
Ranger and paladin can melee and cast spells, though they aren't really traditional gishes.
Cleric and Druid can do the same, though again, not really traditional gishes.
He could also do something with prestige classes, like wizard/fighter/spellsword, or wizard/fighter/abjurant champion(/spellsword)

[Randomguy]

Nope. It still caps up at 5 level spells. Also, it's strictly worse than a druid in both spellcasting and wild shaping.

I just found it weird somebody would call a mystic ranger overpowered in the same post he talks about clerics and wizards.

Considering Mystic Ranger is stronger in almost every way than the wizard for 10 levels, yes, it is overpowered, but only for the first 10 levels.



Hexblade and duskblade are the out of the box gishes.

I'd avoid cleric for now, since he'd probably just end up healing others, and clerics are only REALLY powerful when DMM (persist) is used, and you'd probably want to avoid that for now, since it's a bit too complicated for new players.

Druid is always good, though. You could point him to some guides for melee druids.

And there's always Fighter 2/Wizard 6/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch knight 7, or Fighter 4/wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 9.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Depending on the level, Suel Arcanamach (Complete Arcane) is another option, up to 5th level spells in 10 levels.

[only1doug]

I'll add another recommendation for duskblade.

[LordBlades]

Considering Mystic Ranger is stronger in almost every way than the wizard for 10 levels, yes, it is overpowered, but only for the first 10 levels.



Wrong. Sword of the Arcane Order requires ranger 4. So the earliest you can take it is level 6. So for the first 5 levels wizard is casting wizard spells, mystic ranger is casting ranger spells(or almost no spells if you're building specifically for Sword of the Arcane order, since ranger spells key on wisdom, while your future wizard spells key on int). So I'd say wizard wins.

In the 6-10 level range, wizard gets his spells 1 level earlier while ranger gets better HD, BAB and Wild Shape(small and medium only IIRC). IMO having access to spells of a higher level is better than all that, so I'd give wizard the edge at levels 7 and 9.

This only leaves you with levels 6, 8 and 10 where the ranger is superior to a wizard. Hardly overpowered in my book.

[Randomguy]

Wrong. Sword of the Arcane Order requires ranger 4. So the earliest you can take it is level 6. So for the first 5 levels wizard is casting wizard spells, mystic ranger is casting ranger spells(or almost no spells if you're building specifically for Sword of the Arcane order, since ranger spells key on wisdom, while your future wizard spells key on int). So I'd say wizard wins.

In the 6-10 level range, wizard gets his spells 1 level earlier while ranger gets better HD, BAB and Wild Shape(small and medium only IIRC). IMO having access to spells of a higher level is better than all that, so I'd give wizard the edge at levels 7 and 9.

This only leaves you with levels 6, 8 and 10 where the ranger is superior to a wizard. Hardly overpowered in my book.
The ranger list isn't that bad. It has things like Entangle, hunter's mercy and rhino's rush. But yeah, I see your point.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

One thing I'd ask the player is what he's looking to do with his magic. If he wants to sling fireballs around and just generally blast stuff, warmage is a good pick (though the bad base attack bonus hurts the martial side of the build). If he wants his magic to be geared more toward supplementing his swordsmanship with buffing and a little utility, duskblade is the way to go. For magic that can be more subtle (illusions, mind-affecting spells and the like) with a splash of buffing and debuffing, a bard could do well as a magicswordsman.

What level are the players starting at? If it's a little higher, you could consider a mix of a martial class and a casting class and then steer the player toward a good prestige class (abjurant champion is a good one, though it's only 5 levels.)

[Eugenides]

One thing I'd ask the player is what he's looking to do with his magic. If he wants to sling fireballs around and just generally blast stuff, warmage is a good pick (though the bad base attack bonus hurts the martial side of the build). If he wants his magic to be geared more toward supplementing his swordsmanship with buffing and a little utility, duskblade is the way to go. For magic that can be more subtle (illusions, mind-affecting spells and the like) with a splash of buffing and debuffing, a bard could do well as a magicswordsman.

What level are the players starting at? If it's a little higher, you could consider a mix of a martial class and a casting class and then steer the player toward a good prestige class (abjurant champion is a good one, though it's only 5 levels.)

I did this, and it does seem like he wants to be more of a fireball slinger that can also cut someone in half if they get too close.

As for level, his character would be starting at level 3.

Thanks for the recommendations guys, I'll look in PHB2. I was just limiting them to the listed books because I had physical copies of them and figured if I just said 'Go find what you want on the internet' they would get lost and confused.

[Daer]

melee warlocks are plenty of fun and simple for new players (well after going trough troule picking up which invocations to take. )

[Spuddles]

How is mystic ranged overpowered? You get spellcasting from the Ranger list which is not that awesome tbh. It's no where near the same league as a cleric or wizard.

You're right, it's just a low powered lightning warrior. Truly it sacrifices power for flavor.


Actually there's a feat that lets you cast wizard spells. You should also check out the expanded ranger spell lists, notably in spc and champions of ruin. Getting auto crits with a compound bow at level 2 is pretty op.

I should have clarified- mystic ranger is op in the first half of the game where wizards are only ok and not yet great. Low level clerics and wizards are glass cannons that can't contribute much, for long.

Mystic ranger can do everything. It is almost as good at skills as a rogue. It is almost as good at archery as an archery focused fighter. It also gets virtually all the low level druid spells that are worth using.

You don't need int if you go sotao, just 11 or 13, then itemize up to 15. Bonus spells still key from wis.

Mystic ranger is ovepowered in the worst way- it will make just about everyone in a newby game feel like their class role's toe's are being stepped on.