Running an E6 game, and hurting Pixies

[Thyferra2680]

So, I just started running an E6 game, with a human spell warped duskblade, an elven druid archer, a favored soul dragonborn catfolk, and an elan psion, and the character i'm having trouble with, a pixie warlock.

I'll preface this by saying i'm not a fan of D&D 3.5, since the balance of levels past 8ish starts to get horribly mangled, but we have a beginner in the group, and I was willing to run E6 when I read more about it.

When planning adventures/dungeons for the group, nothing I create that would be balanced with the rest of the party can come close to damaging the pixie.

He can avoid traps/Melee attackers because he's flying.

He can turn (greater)invisible - hard to counter in e6.

He has DR 10/cold iron - I don't know how common cold iron should be, and many monsters can't bypass it since giant spiders don't wield cold iron fangs.

He has Spell resistance - So even if I tried to throw a magical fix to this situation, he's got a spell resistance of 15 + character level.

I'm feeling a bit played here, and I feel like if I really though long and hard about this I wouldn't have allowed the pixie in the game. Making the dungeon monsters challenging to the point of hurting him will simply mean he turns invisible while the rest of the party dies. On the other hand, balancing things for the rest of the party who are actually touchable, means that the pixie just gets to lie on his back and point at people to death.

Cold Iron and Spells that avoid spell resistance are the only things I have in mind that won't just screw over the rest of the party, and having enemies that can always counter invisibility would make it seem like i'm just picking on him. And again, the only people who would prepare spells that bypass resistance and invisibility nullifying spells are those who are super prepared smart adventurers, not wolves or the town guard.

How do I balance these early levels to make it a challenge for the whole party while still being fair?

[Tytalus]

Pixies are the most famous example of the special LA rules of E6 breaking. It's a well known overpowered racial choice.

I'd recommend suggesting to the player that he picks a different race.

[Thyferra2680]

Well nuts. We're 3 sessions in XP.

[only1doug]

I guess that he has 0 point buy so his stats after racial modification are

Str: 4
Dex: 16
Con: 8
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 14

HP: 5

Flight + Invisibility do help him a lot, and warlocks can easily cope with low stats.

Falling rock trap triggered by another party member?

If news of his existance spreads his enemies may well be prepared for him with cold iron weapons and anti-invisibility tools.

Areas of specific importance may well be have precautions against attackers with invisibilty (Ward spells, guards with glitterstones etc)

He will be absolutely useless at grappling (but ok at untrained escape artist) so a blindfighting grappler could pin him.

[Novawurmson]

This depends on campaign world, obviously, but in a world where magic is fairly common, creatures should have some understanding of it. If someone is being hit by an invisible attacker, even if they can't see the person, they should be able to feel what direction it came from and seek cover, just like they would if an arrow hit them. This won't help if he's flying, but a simple bag of flour can ruin an invisible creature's day. Take a look at the book Sharn: City of Towers; it gives some good advice for how a large city deals with magical crime in a world where magic is a consistent part of reality.

Wolves should be doing even better against an invisible creature with Scent. Creatures with alternate forms of sensing opponents than sight (the Wraith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm) has life sense) can work well.

Also, if he's a Warlock, that means that other Warlocks exist in this world. They can get See the Unseen at first level, allowing them to see past his invisibility. Their eldritch blasts will cut through his DR, and his flight means nothing to them (plus, they can pick up the ability to fly, too).

Try to run some creatures with AoE damage that might catch him even if he's invisible. Also, have magical traps that activate when a living creature enters the room, not at a touch.

Does the party have an consistent enemies? Sure, invisibility and flight should take an unprepared opponent at low levels pretty harshly, but if they mess with someone in a larger organization, they should be able to learn from past mistakes. The first temple of demon cultists get slaughtered; the second temple picked up a few potions of see invisibility and a scroll of glitterdust.

If all else fails, talk to the player; tell him how you feel. A decent player will understand your concerns and either scale back on his own or concede on a few terms. If he gets belligerent or it becomes apparent he created this character specifically to harass you, consider removing him from your game; you don't want a disruptive player to ruin everyone's fun.

Hopefully, it won't come to that, though. A few things to discuss with a reasonable player: Downgrade his Greater Invisibility to Invisibility. Give him a number of hours/minutes/rounds per day that his flight works. Reduce his DR to 5/Cold Iron and his spell resistance to manageable levels.

[elpollo]

You can't have every encounter tailored against his abilities, and any you don't are not going to threaten him. Your only real option is to tell the player there's a problem that you didn't anticipate, and suggest that either they change characters or you tone down the pixie's abilities. My suggestions to the latter:


He can avoid traps/Melee attackers because he's flying.

Use things with reach and ranged traps (it's magic, is how it triggers), and fight indoors where they can't get more than 10ft off the ground.



He can turn (greater)invisible - hard to counter in e6.

Tone this down to regular Invisibility, taking a standard action to activate. It might even be worth capping how many times a day this can be done (perhaps 3/day).



He has DR 10/cold iron - I don't know how common cold iron should be, and many monsters can't bypass it since giant spiders don't wield cold iron fangs.

Make this DR 3/cold iron, perhaps increased to 4 at 5th level.


He has Spell resistance - So even if I tried to throw a magical fix to this situation, he's got a spell resistance of 15 + character level.

Make this 10 + character level.


You've now got a slightly more managable pixie with the same feel. Even with this pixies still have more than enough toys to warrant the lower point buy, and have boosts to the ability scores warlocks want (plus as a warlock you don't realy need high stats to contribute, particularly in E6).


edit - swordsaged.

[SpaceBadger]

Suggest he change to a new race as his pixie clearly breaks E6. Point out all the problems you listed above. Award his new character the XP that the Pixie has earned in sessions so far, so he isn't penalized in that respect.

If the player(s) don't want to cooperate with this, I'd tell them to find a new GM, as you agreed to do it only as an E6 game and if they are determined to break that game with cheese munchkin "win" attitude, the deal is off.

[Novawurmson]

A few more ideas from the SRD:


Invisibility does not thwart detect spells.


If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible.

Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location.

An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.

A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.

A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.)

A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility.

[Novawurmson]

Aaaaalso: What level is the party?

[Novawurmson]

He can hit touch AC easily with his Eldritch Blast, but miss chance can still screw him over. Blur/Concealing Amorpha!

Also, you've got a Psion? So Psionics exists in your world? I'm assuming there's psionic/magic transparency. A Psion/Wilder can use Detect Psionics before the battle to discern his location (or Touchsight...or Eradicate Invisibility...maybe even Detect Hostile Intent) and then drop an Energy Burst/Bolt (or other AoE) if you think they can get through his SR.

If not, take a look at Dissolving Touch on the Psychic Warrior spell list. Dissipating Touch works, too - SR doesn't apply for creatures. They're the only thing I can find so far that doesn't allow SR or DR.

Edit: His eldritch blast is also subject to spell resistance. Man, he's his own worst enemy. Try a mirror match against another Pixie Warlock that hates his guts XD

[ThatKreacher]

Aren't pixie warlocks impossible? They have an always NG alignment, while warlocks have to have either a chaotic or an evil in their alignment, right?

[Novawurmson]

Aren't pixie warlocks impossible? They have an always NG alignment, while warlocks have to have either a chaotic or an evil in their alignment, right?

::sputter::

Yeah, they have to be either Chaotic or Evil, and it says "always NG" under alignment, while almost everything else I can find says "usually" or "often" whatever alignment.

I've been reading a bunch of Warlock guides, and almost all of them suggest pixie somewhere in them. Turns out they don't qualify at all by RAW!

[ThatKreacher]

::sputter::

Yeah, they have to be either Chaotic or Evil, and it says "always NG" under alignment, while almost everything else I can find says "usually" or "often" whatever alignment.

I've been reading a bunch of Warlock guides, and almost all of them suggest pixie somewhere in them. Turns out they don't qualify at all by RAW!

I realized this as I made a pixie. They were a completely fake fortune teller, and then I realized that conning wasn't exactly NG. So I checked the warlock class for the alignment, and realized they were impossible. I was very sad.

[Knaight]

::sputter::

Yeah, they have to be either Chaotic or Evil, and it says "always NG" under alignment, while almost everything else I can find says "usually" or "often" whatever alignment.

I've been reading a bunch of Warlock guides, and almost all of them suggest pixie somewhere in them. Turns out they don't qualify at all by RAW!

When a D&D alignment says always, it doesn't actually mean always. It notes that it is 95% or similar. Check your MM.

[Zale]

::sputter::

Yeah, they have to be either Chaotic or Evil, and it says "always NG" under alignment, while almost everything else I can find says "usually" or "often" whatever alignment.

I've been reading a bunch of Warlock guides, and almost all of them suggest pixie somewhere in them. Turns out they don't qualify at all by RAW!

What?

Pixies aren't Chaotic?

Well. Who would have thought..

[Novawurmson]

What?

Pixies aren't Chaotic?

Well. Who would have thought..

Checked the SRD: They're not in Pathfinder either! Fey are like the definition of chaos...so weird.

[Psyren]

Checked the SRD: They're not in Pathfinder either! Fey are like the definition of chaos...so weird.

No they aren't - you're thinking of Proteans, i.e. PF Slaadi. Fey tend to nonlawful behavior, but not necessarily chaos. (For instance, Brownies are TN.)

[umbergod]

When a D&D alignment says always, it doesn't actually mean always. It notes that it is 95% or similar. Check your MM.

^this. A player cannot be forced to be a certain alignment beyond any restrictions the DM places. Otherwise, there would be no fallen angels/good fiends. when it says Always in the alignment, it means variations are so rare as to basically be nonexistent, ie, in the case of an adventuring pixie, perhaps his/her differing alignment is what brought about becoming an adventurer in the first place

[Metahuman1]

Suggestion: Offer him a change of Race from Pixie to Petal from the Monster Manual 3.



It still fly's well and has DR to help with the low HP and is still a Tiny Fey with solid Dex and awesome Cha. It doesn't have the invisibility thing going though which makes it significantly less powerful just because of that.

That should fix a chunk of it since now he can actually be shot at. Combine with some of the area of effect suggestions and trap suggestions, and maybe monsters with reach of some means, and he's now much more balanced to the rest of the party, but he should still get to feel like a badass, which I'm guessing was his intention.

[Thomasinx]

Pixies aren't unbeatable. One or two good hits and they're down. The trick is figuring out how to get these hits in.

1.) If that pixie gets anywhere near the archer while invisible, start rolling percentage dice to see if there's a collision. The archer can't aim to avoid the pixie if he can't see him.

2.) Monsters with scent (already stated by others) will trump invisibility. If you go through the MM's, it's unbelievable how many monsters come with some sort of extraordinary sense such as scent, lifesense, dweomersense, or somesuch. (tremorsense won't help too much in this case...)

3.) AoE attacks... Even with SR, a weak fireball could significantly screw a pixie with a good roll. This works even better when you use breath attacks which dont allow SR.

4.) DR can by ignored by doing ability damage. Start pulling undead out which can cause ability score damage. These work even better because the pixie has low ability scores.

5.) Grapples. I know someone else mentioned this already, but a single grapple can end a pixie. Lots of monsters are built around this (constrictor snakes?), and could easily beat any check the pixie makes. Even if this doesn't beat the DR reliably, this pulls the pixie out of the fight, letting the other party members 'come to the rescue'.

[Knaight]

I'd also add swarms to the list.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use creatures with Blindsight like Grimlocks and Grells (MM2). A Grell would drop down from the ceiling and Improved Grab that pixie and haul him away, and the rest of the party wouldn't even see that he's in trouble!

Have them go through an extremely dusty cavern complex. The dust is falling from the ceiling and gets stirred up from the floor and sticks on everyone, and gives away the Pixie's location despite his invisibility. Per Novawurmson's rules citation earlier, when an invisible creature picks up an object that object remains visible, so there would be highly visible dust covering him and completely giving away his presence.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Honestly? If it were me running the game, I'd have a bunch of mooks with splash weapons kill his character. When he complained I'd point out that he's clearly violating the spirit of the rules and is welcome to reroll, keeping his experience and such.

That's going to be something that can threaten him; he can still be hit with splash weapons, and non-magical energy attacks like Alchemist's Fire or Acid penetrate DR. So six to ten kobolds throwing vials of acid near him is going to be dangerous.

[sdream]

I think the suggestions to kill him with encounters specifically designed to negate all the defenses he paid SOMETHING for (although clearly not enough) is a terrible GM tactic.

What is the point of getting abilities if all the enemies you face suddenly become immune to them?

I suggest you talk to him, tell him that his choices are overpowering to the rest of the party and you are going to have to slightly reduce them for a while and see if it fits better:

- Wings make a lot of noise, heck we can pinpoint flying bugs by their noise and they are incredibly small and light. Flight and move silently just don't mix.

- Also sniping invisibly is no good, he is probably not using an invisible spell-like ability feat. Throwing, shooting, or casting creates visible disturbances that allow enemies to pinpoint his square (still concealed).

- With this plethora of ways to detect him, let some enemies attack him with ranged, and others perhaps seek cover. No reason to try and slant more towards attacking him than any other character.

- Finally, tone down the DR and SR by 5 points each. He still has lots of protection but is no longer able to just assume invulnerability to threats the party faces. Make sure he knows that you'll keep him from being killed as long as he doesn't act invincible, and if he starts being weaker than other party members as levels rise you are open to restoring some protections.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I just used standard LA buyoff rules in my game, which makes races with LA+2 or more completely implausible as PCs, but closes off abuses of stratospheric LA races.

I think I'll manage in a game without 6th-level vampire PCs, anyway.

Maybe impose the old rules, and suggest that if he wants to play that type of character, he could play a Tibbit Warlock (Dragon Magazine Compendium) instead? He would still be Tiny-sized, and he could gain the ability to fly or be invisible (but not Greater Invisible) as a lesser invocation, if he so chooses.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

- Finally, tone down the DR and SR by 5 points each. He still has lots of protection but is no longer able to just assume invulnerability to threats the party faces. Make sure he knows that you'll keep him from being killed as long as he doesn't act invincible, and if he starts being weaker than other party members as levels rise you are open to restoring some protections.

I think changing his character is a worse solution than just killing him.

[Zaq]

I think changing his character is a worse solution than just killing him.

Eh, changing his character will be done with him knowing ahead of time. If you're doing it right (using the generic "you"), you'll talk to him, explain the situation, explain your proposed solution, and let him either accept it or reroll (or make a counteroffer, but that depends on a lot of things). Killing the character, on the other hand, will just kinda piss him off—or lead to an arms race if he doesn't die, which will NOT end well.

[demigodus]

Honestly? If it were me running the game, I'd have a bunch of mooks with splash weapons kill his character. When he complained I'd point out that he's clearly violating the spirit of the rules and is welcome to reroll, keeping his experience and such.

I'm not quite sure if I would call picking a race to be, in and of itself, breaking the spirit of the rules. Seems like a very drastic statement. Players CAN break the game by accident (given that this is 3.5, not too hard at in a low-op group).

Honestly, talking to him and explaining that you can't handle his character would likely be the best. If that doesn't work, 15ft high ceiling, with a brown bear in it. CR 4 challenge, but could wipe the floor with a lvl 4 pixie (scent to locate pixie, improved grab to grapple on hit, damage high enough to go through DR on most hits).

[shortee222]

My favorite is to get a bucket that is tied to a rope that falls down when he flies under it. Pixie's can't move anything heavier than like 5lbs I think, double check that for me please. Quick fix to the problem but easy for the party to deal with if they get another party member to help him out.

[Hyde]

nonmagical AoE traps are your best bet, really.

That or something like Blasphemy, but that might be too high level.

[KillianHawkeye]

My favorite is to get a bucket that is tied to a rope that falls down when he flies under it. Pixie's can't move anything heavier than like 5lbs I think, double check that for me please. Quick fix to the problem but easy for the party to deal with if they get another party member to help him out.

Here's your double check, and you are way below the mark on this one.

A standard MM Pixie has a Strength of 7. Pixies are Small creatures, not Tiny as some have incorrectly posted, so they have 3/4 the carrying capacity of a Medium-sized creature of equal Strength. That means about 17 lbs for its light load, and it can drag over 260 lbs of weight!

Somebody upthread guessed that his Strength was only a 4 due to low point buy, but even then it could carry almost 10 lbs without becoming encumbered.

Even with a Strength of only 1, the Pixie could lift as much as 7.5 lbs over its head and drag a weight of almost 38 lbs.

[Boci]

Honestly? If it were me running the game, I'd have a bunch of mooks with splash weapons kill his character. When he complained I'd point out that he's clearly violating the spirit of the rules and is welcome to reroll, keeping his experience and such.

So your suggestion is to solve an OOC problem with IC violence towards the character, then accuse the player of cheating? The DMs going to come out of that looking really good, especially if the player just liked the concept of playing a fey.

If you don't want his character to continue in the game, ask him to reroll. Don't make an encounter costumed designed to kill it.

[Alienist]

The only real solution is to man up and admit you made a mistake letting that character in. Honestly I don't understand why so many DMs insist on preserving the illusion of infallibility. I guarantee that not being able to admit to mistakes does NOT make your players respect you more.

The pixie has a number of abilities that are problematic:

double speed movement
- that is also flight
invisibility
- that doesn't go away when he attacks
ridiculously high DR
ridiculously high magic resistance

Any ONE of these abilities is banhammer worthy (in a level 1 E6 campaign). In combination it is truly disturbing that that player has not actually approached you yet to discuss toning the character down.

Clearly the player's intent is to break the game.

I suggest coming clean with the players, admit to them that the character is a problem. Start by letting them know that because certain people cannot be trusted with the character ceeation process that races/templates with any LA adjustment are off the table. Not 'please whine at me till I cave in' but simply not even an option anymore.

Then let them take a vote:

(a) player retires that character and makes another one
(b) continue as is but DM severely ramps up the difficulty of encounters to pitch them at the pixies level

if the players cannot come to a consensus, provide them two final options
(1) rocks fall, pixie dies
(2) rocks fall, everyone dies (campaign ends immediately)

[Alienist]

So your suggestion is to solve an OOC problem with IC violence towards the character, then accuse the player of cheating? The DMs going to come out of that looking really good, especially if the player just liked the concept of playing a fey.

You don't bring pun pun into a game and then get to protest that you "just wanted to play a kobold".

The player clearly intended to 'win' at D&D. Problem is, 'winning' D&D ruins it for everyone else.


If you don't want his character to continue in the game, ask him to reroll. Don't make an encounter costumed designed to kill it.

My solution has the benefit of putting the question of how to fix the problem to the players. Whereas just telling him to reroll is the high-handed approach.

The other players should be involved in the decision, as it is their game too.

[Boci]

You don't bring pun pun into a game and then get to protest that you "just wanted to play a kobold".

No. If you want to play a kobold, you play a kobold. If you want to play a fey, you most likely play a pixie. They are the most commonly mentioned plyable fey race, and possibly the only in core.


The player clearly intended to 'win' at D&D.

No they aren't, and having never met them you cannot make such a claim.


My solution has the benefit of putting the question of how to fix the problem to the players. Whereas just telling him to reroll is the high-handed approach.

The other players should be involved in the decision, as it is their game too.

Really, "Your character breaks the game, please reroll" is high-handed, but "I'm going to let you and the other players vote on your characters fate" isn't?

[Alienist]

Really, "Your character breaks the game, please reroll" is high-handed, but "I'm going to let you and the other players vote on your characters fate" isn't?

Yes. Really. Telling the player that you are using DM fiat to force him to reroll is extremely high handed. And moreover that and specifically singling out one of the characters for special attention are exactly the sort of tactics that lead to players turning up here for a big whinge session about what a bad DM they have.

Talk to your players. Involve them in these kind of 'meta' decisions. It's not that hard, really, you're playing a roleplaying game for goodness sake, you're halfway there already.

-----

If the other players don't understand what the problem is, have them traped in a room with no exits, and then turn to the pixie player and tell him "you've been mind controlled, now kill everyone else in the party".

[Boci]

Yes. Really. Telling the player that you are using DM fiat to force him to reroll is extremely high handed.

I never said you should do that. You ask, you don't force.


And moreover that and specifically singling out one of the characters for special attention are exactly the sort of tactics that lead to players turning up here for a big whinge session about what a bad DM they have.

And you cannot see your tactics leading a player complaining here? REALLY? No "The DM allowed the other players to outvote m characters existence" threads?


If the other players don't understand what the problem is, have them traped in a room with no exits, and then turn to the pixie player and tell him "you've been mind controlled, now kill everyone else in the party".

Two problems.

1. I thought you said "specifically singling out one of the characters for special attention" was bad. Isn't that exactly what you are doing here?

2. You're basically telling the group "you have a vote. If you do not agree with me, I will put you in a contrived situation that will make you agree with me". But apparently you think this will end well...

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I'm not quite sure if I would call picking a race to be, in and of itself, breaking the spirit of the rules. Seems like a very drastic statement.

He's chosen a race with a Su ability - resumable as a free action - that duplicates a spell not available in E6. One of the reasons to play E6 is that fourth and higher level spells simply don't exist in the game world. Pixie is one of the ways to get around that.

As to playable Fey, there are two others in Core. Of the three, only one has anything as challenging early game as permanent invisibility (assuming you don't give a Grig character a fiddle, allowing him to use Irresistible Dance basically at-will). There's really not a huge amount of difference; they all have some DR, some SR, some useful SLAs... Only the pixie gets you something you can't get by any other means in an E6 game (technically untrue, I think, but it's going to be hard to optimize Hide checks that much by level 5).

[Zale]

The pixie has a number of abilities that are problematic:

double speed movement
- that is also flight
invisibility
- that doesn't go away when he attacks
ridiculously high DR
ridiculously high magic resistance

Any ONE of these abilities is banhammer worthy (in a level 1 E6 campaign). In combination it is truly disturbing that that player has not actually approached you yet to discuss toning the character down.


Unless I'm mistaken, the lowest level a Pixie can be played at is 5.

I'd suggest talking to him about it. It might be possible that he doesn't realize how invulnerable he his. People are reasonable, they'll compromise.

[Boci]

Unless I'm mistaken, the lowest level a Pixie can be played at is 5.

In E6 LA eats into your pointbuy. A pixie / warlock 1 would be ECL 1 but would have no extra points for stats (all stats are 10 + the racial modifier).


He's chosen a race with a Su ability - resumable as a free action - that duplicates a spell not available in E6. One of the reasons to play E6 is that fourth and higher level spells simply don't exist in the game world. Pixie is one of the ways to get around that.

Or he chose a race he liked the sound of and didn't realize it would break the game. What's the benefit in assuming the worst here?

[Zale]

In E6 LA eats into your pointbuy. A pixie / warlock 1 would be ECL 1 but would have no extra points for stats (all stats are 10 + the racial modifier).


Wow. Really?

And no one saw any potential problems for that?

[SlyJohnny]

Yeah, the only option is to sit him down and say "Look, man, we made a mistake. Now, I could tailor every encounter to challenge you, I can decide that cold iron randomly makes up half the weapons in the world, or we can work something out so you can still play the character you want without being arbitrarily immune to everything. On the bright side, enjoy all your extra point buy points."

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Or he chose a race he liked the sound of and didn't realize it would break the game. What's the benefit in assuming the worst here?

You could be right; I just have a hard time thinking he didn't know exactly what he was doing. Reading between the lines in the OP - he doesn't really like 3.5, someone convinced him to try E6 presumably with the carrot of greater balance and lower overall power level, and now he feels taken advantage of - seems to paint a pretty clear picture.

[doc225]

Actually, a pixie would have all scores starting at 8, then factor racial adjustments. E6 LA point buy follows the PB rules in the DMG, which has all scores start as 8. just something to throw out there.

[Alienist]

Yeah, the only option is to sit him down and say "Look, man, we made a mistake. Now, I could tailor every encounter to challenge you, I can decide that cold iron randomly makes up half the weapons in the world, or we can work something out so you can still play the character you want without being arbitrarily immune to everything. On the bright side, enjoy all your extra point buy points."

I agree in principle, but I think the other players should be involved in the discussion. In either case it's not really fixable within the game world without breaking the illusion (for what its worth) of perfect simulation. E.g. a lot of DMs try to avoid 'swapping out' characters on the fly, because it contravenes the story and common sense.

That desire, to keep propping up the game world by working around broken system mechanics and pretend nothing is wrong is classic 'Emperors new clothes' syndrome. Problem is, the DMs that do this aren't fooling anybody. Trying to use fluff to fix crunch that is broken is doomed, but they keep trying anyway, until finally the wheels all fall off.

A mature group will corporately agree to ignore the broken bits, an immature group will try to exploit them.

[GenghisDon]

Take the counters above into mind & match them up against CR 1-10 creatures.

Make the next few adventures heavy on such monsters. yeah, it sucks having one's creativity stifled, but whatever.

I'd say don't allow pixie warlocks per above, but I'd change their alignment to "always CN"...the MM is stupid.

ECL races aren't really intended for E6, I'd ok them carefully in the future. ECL +1 or maybe 2 ought be a limit.

honestly, one could probably just ignore a L2 (+4 ECL) warlock much of the time.

hmm, I'm seeing some point buy rubbish...and there's the problem's root.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

...are you serious?

[nedz]

I would involve the entire group in this and use peer pressure to persuade him to retire the character and play something else. This should work, though players who haven't DM'ed may not understand the problem. Have any of the other players made any comments ?

[GenghisDon]

...are you serious?

about what?

the post, sure.

if you have something to actually question, say so.

[Boci]

E.g. a lot of DMs try to avoid 'swapping out' characters on the fly, because it contravenes the story and common sense.

But your method would have the exact same result.


Wow. Really?

And no one saw any potential problems for that?

As a general rule? No. The OP doesn't have a problem with the spellwarped warblade after all. The problem seems to be the DM isn't experienced enough to reliably make a call as to what races/templates should be allowed and which should not.

[Zonugal]

The easiest way is going to be approaching the player and addressing the issues.

From there you can figure out how to possibly retire the character. No need to kill the Pixie off but perhaps they are summoned away by a high fey noble to complete a task more suited to their needs. Ideally you should leave off to where the character is an NPC that sometimes shows up to possibly give aid or help to the players.

[demigodus]

He's chosen a race with a Su ability - resumable as a free action - that duplicates a spell not available in E6. One of the reasons to play E6 is that fourth and higher level spells simply don't exist in the game world. Pixie is one of the ways to get around that.

I would consider the spirit of the rules in this case to be, actively picking broken options. Accidents can happen, and I don't consider those breaking the spirit of the rules really. And honestly, when just picking a race makes a broken character, there is no reason to assume active intent in making said broken character.

[Knaight]

hmm, I'm seeing some point buy rubbish...and there's the problem's root.

Yeah, no. The pixie having straight 8's down the line before racial modifiers is not what's causing the problem here, the problem comes from a handful of special abilities that are very impressive, and from the pixie being one of the very few creatures that doesn't have an astronomical LA relative to its actual power, inasmuch as LA is even a functional system to begin with.

[Urpriest]

Regardless, this shouldn't be a problem. You can't target the Pixie, but it should be easy to target the Pixie's allies, who aren't invisible or flying. The Pixie is NG, and will thus want to prevent harm to its allies, but it has no abilities with which to do so, since a Warlock of such low level won't have much in the way of BFC, or indeed damage. You challenge the Pixie in the same way you challenge any other unhittable character: by ignoring them and going after the real threats.

[KillianHawkeye]

Or he chose a race he liked the sound of and didn't realize it would break the game. What's the benefit in assuming the worst here?

You could be right; I just have a hard time thinking he didn't know exactly what he was doing. Reading between the lines in the OP - he doesn't really like 3.5, someone convinced him to try E6 presumably with the carrot of greater balance and lower overall power level, and now he feels taken advantage of - seems to paint a pretty clear picture.

In cases like these, I remember Hanlon's Razor.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
"Stupidity" in this case simply being ignorance.

[GenghisDon]

Yeah, no. The pixie having straight 8's down the line before racial modifiers is not what's causing the problem here, the problem comes from a handful of special abilities that are very impressive, and from the pixie being one of the very few creatures that doesn't have an astronomical LA relative to its actual power, inasmuch as LA is even a functional system to begin with.

Yeah, yes, I'm afraid. I don't care what their scores are. Especially for a warlock. The "point buy replaces level adjustment" simply is the problem. DR 10 at L1, spells (as you say) far in excess of L1 casters, spells beyond the power (both level & caster level) anyone else will ever get without super optimization, ect.

You can't expect to trade scores for that stuff & have it work.


Wow. Really?

And no one saw any potential problems for that?

No ****, as soon as I saw that, it's REALLY obvious what's wrong.

It sounds like the DM WAS taken advantage of...he doesn't have any real idea about the 3.5 system it sounded like & E6 is supposed to be different than playing super heros. And here comes the "super hero" anyway; flight, limited invulnerability, invisibility, negates super powers, can shapeshift, energy zap, blek. "Look it's martian manhunter with crappy scores!"

[Knaight]

Yeah, yes, I'm afraid. I don't care what their scores are. Especially for a warlock. The "point buy replaces level adjustment" simply is the problem. DR 10 at L1, spells (as you say) far in excess of L1 casters, spells beyond the power (both level & caster level) anyone else will ever get without super optimization, ect.

You can't expect to trade scores for that stuff & have it work.

It works for basically every creature other than pixie, which means it works for significantly more creatures than the actual LA rules. Pixie just has a rather unique combination of low RHD, high LA, and a high LA due almost entirely to special abilities and not statistics. Take, say a Hobgoblin - they have an advantage on move silently, a stat advantage, and darkvision, with LA 1. LA reduction drops the points a bit, giving them what is effectively +4 move silently, and dark vision. This works well. Take the Ogre - they get 4 weak RHD, and 2 LA, which gives size, strength, constitution, and a natural armor bonus, and takes away dexterity, wisdom, and charisma. The loss of point buy for the 2 LA brings their stats largely in line, and as they get a whole 2 levels, they end up a decent melee brute who doesn't get a second attack, with a major weakness against Will save magic. It works out there.

The problem here is the way pixies function.

[GenghisDon]

It's not going to work for anything with DR, or with significant spell like abilities. Probably not fast healing or regeneration either. Even SR is much better, as one gets levels instead of loosing them.

Yeah, it's fine for hobgoblins, tieflings, ogres, ect.

Ogre magi, on the other hand, probably is a problem.

Better to simply play ECL as it is, and given E6's nature, avoid it as much as possible, or limit it to +1 (maybe +2) races.

[Boci]

It's not going to work for anything with DR, or with significant spell like abilities. Probably not fast healing or regeneration either. Even SR is much better, as one gets levels instead of loosing them.

Yeah, it's fine for hobgoblins, tieflings, ogres, ect.

Ogre magi, on the other hand, probably is a problem.

Better to simply play ECL as it is, and given E6's nature, avoid it as much as possible, or limit it to +1 (maybe +2) races.

No, the current system for E6 is better. You cannot use a race with more than +4 LA (and ogre magi have got +7), so there are not that many races which are that problematic.

[GenghisDon]

How about Half Celestial, Fey or Fiends? How low are their scores? Like a Pixie? All 8's+racial mod?

L1 half dragons (LA+3) are gonna fry an encounter/day pretty easily

But if folks like the way it runs with ECL, they are welcome to it.

[Boci]

How about Half Celestial, Fey or Fiends? How low are their scores? Like a Pixie? All 8's+racial mod?

Yes, so strength 12, dexterity 12, con 10, int 12, wis 8, cha 10. They aren't nearly as problomatic as a pixie, because their fly maneuverability is worse, their DR is magic not cold iron, and they do not have at will greater invisibility. (Although fey I believe are only LA: +2).


HL1 half dragons (LA+3) are gonna fry an encounter/day pretty easily

Is it that worse than a wizard casting colour spray?

[Knaight]

Yes, so strength 12, dexterity 12, con 10, int 12, wis 8, cha 10. They aren't nearly as problomatic as a pixie, because their fly maneuverability is worse, their DR is magic not cold iron, and they do not have at will greater invisibility. (Although fey I believe are only LA: +2).

Moreover, by level 2 or 3, their breath weapon isn't a nice boost, but hardly an encounter ending effect.

[GenghisDon]

Human/Half Celestial
STR 12 DEX 10 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 12 CHR 12
Fly 60 (good), +1 nat armor, daylight at will, smite evil 1/d, pro vs evil 3/d, bless (L3 adds aid, detect evil, L5 adds cure serious wounds, nuetralise poison), darvision, immune to disease, resist acid/cold/electricity 10, +4 save vs poison, SR 11+, outsider type, +1 feat +1 skill/L

Just doesn't suit E6 IMHO, and it's abilities at L1, while not as bad as a pixies, are still problems. Flight is like a "high magic" in E6, this character does it all the time, since L1.

Why play E6 if one is going to subvert it's purpose entirely?

Bah! Go ahead and have your bad/wrong/fun, but I think you'll need a different DM than the one from the OP.

Is it that worse than a wizard casting colour spray?[/QUOTE] Yes

[Boci]

Human/Half Celestial
STR 12 DEX 10 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 12 CHR 12

And which class would you play with such stats?

[GenghisDon]

any melee, wisdom or chr caster, warlock (the player spotted they need no stats), ect.

I'll bite though; isn't a human 15 14 13 12 10 8? ie: not much better? or do they get lots of points?

[vhfforever]

Simply alter Imp.Invis to Invisiblility at will, resume as a Move Action. Honestly, SR can be overcome, DR is only 10 and if something punches through that the Pixie is most likely toast.

[Boci]

any melee, wisdom or chr caster, warlock (the player spotted they need no stats), ect.

I'll bite though; isn't a human 15 14 13 12 10 8? ie: not much better? or do they get lots of points?

LA: 0 = 32, LA: +1 = 25, LA: +2 = 18, LA: +3 = 10, LA: 4 = +0.

[Knaight]

any melee, wisdom or chr caster, warlock (the player spotted they need no stats), ect.

I'll bite though; isn't a human 15 14 13 12 10 8? ie: not much better? or do they get lots of points?
The progression is:

{table]Level Adjustment|Point Buy
0|32
1|25
2|18
3|10
4|0[/table]

[GenghisDon]

ah, ok. I still think that's a terrible idea overall, but <shrug>

half dragon gets 10 points though. And 6d8 is as much or more than the casters will ever do.

hmmm

Half fey (18 points) looks like a real "winner" (as usual).

I haven't exactly combed the books, either. We don't use monster characters very often at all.

[Boci]

ah, ok. I still think that's a terrible idea overall, but <shrug>

If you are using this system, the DM can still just not allow LA, but if you use standard LA method, the DM effectively says that by default. So I don't see why you think its a terrible idea, but shrug.


half dragon gets 10 points though. And 6d8 is as much or more than the casters will ever do.

So tweak it to make it 1d8 / level. These aren't exactly major changes and are to be expected for E6.

[Knaight]

ah, ok. I still think that's a terrible idea overall, but <shrug>

half dragon gets 10 points though. And 6d8 is as much or more than the casters will ever do.

hmmm

It's a small line or small cone, the save DC is (DC 10 + ½ half-dragon’s racial HD + half-dragon’s Con modifier), which pretty much works out to DC 10 + Con modifier for PCs, where the con modifier isn't going to be particularly impressive on account of how you have a whole 10 points to allocate between your skills, and it's easily resisted elemental damage. Half Dragon isn't worrying.

[GenghisDon]

Dude, what is to worry about in E6 then, aside from pixies? whom the half dragon can kill off easily with a cone (sure, you save; & die anyway..bye bye pixie)

[Knaight]

Dude, what is to worry about in E6 then, aside from pixies? whom the half dragon can kill off easily with a cone (sure, you save; & die anyway..bye bye pixie)

The main issue is with item shenanigans (basically, the ability to create items which bypass the 3rd level spell restrictions), and disparity in feat selection (The incarnum feats are way better than almost anything else). Phrenic looks fairly solid as well (with psionic magic transparency, you can completely lock down an enemies magic for as long as you want, on top of a few other things), and I'm reasonably sure that Savage Species can cause problems in general. Generally though, e6 is much better balanced than default D&D.

[GenghisDon]

I'm sure it's completely balanced if it's played as intended.

[Urpriest]

I'm sure it's completely balanced if it's played as intended.

That's either a tautology or wildly unsubstantiable.

[Boci]

I'm sure it's completely balanced if it's played as intended.

It is. You said with the half-celestial you would play "any melee, wisdom or chr caster, warlock". Enjoy playing melee with 12 strength, 10 dexterity and 12 con (plus your flight becomes less useful) and enjoy being a caster with 12 in your caster with 12 in your casting stat. A warlock works if you don't take any invocations that allow saves, but even then most of your own saves, amount of skills, hp and skill check modifiers as well as opposed ability check rolls are all going to be lower than your party members. Your have flight, but without invisibility you will still be vulnerable to ranged attacks, or other flying creatures, and your damage reduction is only 5 and is overcome by magic not cold iron. And if the enemies are not equipped to hurt you, they will just hurt your allies.
I had forgotten how damaging a half-dragon's breath weapon was, so that probably will need to be changed, but apart from that and the pixie I cannot think of anything that wouldn't work that well.

[GenghisDon]

You don't get DR at all, actually.

a caster with a 12 score works because it's E6. You only ever get L3 spells. Raise to 13 at L4, find or make items of wis or chr.

One just avoids spells that rely on a saving throw. Yes, it's a limit, but it is WELL worth the trade for that suite of abilities.

Regardless, the half fey or even the half dragon are quite superior. The half fey in particular. One CAN have high charisma & spells/SLA that rock. Plus Fly, ect.

I'm not out to hack on E6 BTW, I just got the sense, from it's premise, that playing "superhumans" was the opposite of what it was about. It is veratile enough to go the template or monster route, maybe, but I doubt the author gives a damn about these issues.

I was just saying, well, the obvious. Apply LA as usual, and there IS NO PROBLEMS. Not in E6 anyway, standard play's another story.

[Boci]

a caster with a 12 score works because it's E6. You only ever get L3 spells. Raise to 13 at L4, find or make items of wis or chr.

Say goodby to bonus spells.


One just avoids spells that rely on a saving throw. Yes, it's a limit, but it is WELL worth the trade for that suite of abilities.

I think you are failing to consider that most of the good spells that do not have a save are above 4th level. Colourspray, sleep, glitterdust, stinking cloud...you still have haste, enlarge person and I'll give you greace because the balance check remains the same, but I think you're underestimating the loss of cutting out save requiring spells at lower levels.


Regardless, the half fey or even the half dragon are quite superior. The half fey in particular. One CAN have high charisma & spells/SLA that rock. Plus Fly, ect.

I'll check the half fey because at LA: +2 they might be a problem, but the half-dragon doesn't get nearly as many goodies as a half-celestial (no fly for a start), so once the breath weapon is fixed there shouldn't be any problem.


I'm not out to hack on E6 BTW, I just got the sense, from it's premise, that playing "superhumans" was the opposite of what it was about. It is veratile enough to go the template or monster route, maybe, but I doubt the author gives a damn about these issues.

But the author included the rules for having +4 LA. Who are you to say this isn't what he intended?


I was just saying, well, the obvious. Apply LA as usual, and there IS NO PROBLEMS. Not in E6 anyway, standard play's another story.

No, just no. You may as well ban all LA above 1, maybe 2 with that approach, which is still an option with the point buy reduction rules, it just allows for LA to be used without destroying certain character concepts.

[the_archduke]

Half dragon + the dragon breath feat from Races of the Dragon gets pretty nuts.

6d8 every d4 rounds is pretty powerful

plus if you can get to large, you get flight as well.

My favorite way to do this is Expansion. By RAW, A half-dragon that is Large or larger has wings and can fly at twice its base land speed (maximum 120 ft.) with average maneuverability. When you manifest expansion (starting medium) you become a large half-dragon who has wings and can fly.

[Boci]

Half dragon + the dragon breath feat from Races of the Dragon gets pretty nuts.

6d8 every d4 rounds is pretty powerful

So don't allow that feat for half-dragons. Its E6, tweaking is expected.


plus if you can get to large, you get flight as well

Which is impossible without adding an extra point of LA, leaving you with 0 point by.

[GenghisDon]

Boci, we are clearly not looking at the game the same way.

But WHO THE **** ARE YOU TO TELL ME I CAN'T HAVE A SENSE OF AN AUTHOR'S WORK?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Dial it back a notch. You're making sweeping statements about RAI without any sort of evidence. The belligerence is completely uncalled-for.

Killian, ordinarily yes. From the OP, though, the sense I get is maliciousness. I dunno, maybe I'm more sensitive to this since I've had players be evasive or outright lie in order to be more powerful. In some cases it's stuff like "Is DMM allowed?" "Depends what you want it for." "Oh, just DMM Empower." "Yeah, that's fine," and then LOL UNEXPECTED DMM PERSIST. In others it's been players making things up out of whole cloth and then getting cranky when they're caught essentially cheating. I've had a player walk out in a huff when told that Pyrokineticists can't use Bolt of Fire to make iterative attacks and that Heat Death does in fact allow a save and is only a single-target ability. This was when I first started playing; I didn't have the book at took him at his word about what the class did.

[Boci]

Boci, we are clearly not looking at the game the same way.

But WHO THE **** ARE YOU TO TELL ME I CAN'T HAVE A SENSE OF AN AUTHOR'S WORK?

You can have a sense of the author's work. In this case I simply think its wrong. The author chose to allow LA, further more choosing a cut off point as to how much LA was allowed. This cut off point was LA 4, so I do not see why someone would think that the the author didn't intend for characters with LA4 templates.


Killian, ordinarily yes. From the OP, though, the sense I get is maliciousness. I dunno, maybe I'm more sensitive to this since I've had players be evasive or outright lie in order to be more powerful. In some cases it's stuff like "Is DMM allowed?" "Depends what you want it for." "Oh, just DMM Empower." "Yeah, that's fine," and then LOL UNEXPECTED DMM PERSIST. In others it's been players making things up out of whole cloth and then getting cranky when they're caught essentially cheating. I've had a player walk out in a huff when told that Pyrokineticists can't use Bolt of Fire to make iterative attacks and that Heat Death does in fact allow a save and is only a single-target ability. This was when I first started playing; I didn't have the book at took him at his word about what the class did.

Those are different examples though. The first is the player lying and the second one is likely that as well, or a honest mistake they refused to admit (unlikely though by the sounds of it). But here as far as I can tell, we have a player who asked to play a pixie and then played a pixie. Its possible the player was banking on the DM not knowing how good the pixies abilities were, but there is nothing to really suggested that over the player liking the pixie race.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Other than the OP saying he felt like he was manipulated, no, there's nothing. How much weight that carries is up to you.

[Novawurmson]

I'd like to disrupt the flow of the conversation here and ask: OP, what did you decide to do?