PF Warlock

[Novawurmson]

Trying to do a quick update to the Warlock for PF. Sanity check for a few changes:

1. Increase hitdice to d8 to match 3/4 BAB.

2. Increase skills per level to 4; they're a pretty limited class to begin with; this means they can pick up UMD, CC Perception, plus some social skills or Knowledges.

4. Change alignment to any, but usually chaotic (see below)

5. Change Eldritch Blast progression to 1d6+1d6 per two levels (as Rogue sneak attack). Problem created: level 14 is now a dead level.

Fluff change:

A Warlock's magic comes to her by means of a gift - usually from a powerful chaotic outsider or fey. Sometimes this comes without the will or knowledge of the receiver, as a mark of favor or ownership by an outside force. Some Warlocks bargain with or even serve a power willingly in order to gain their powers, but just as many were claimed by the wild forces of the cosmos for reasons they many never understand.

This is to specifically differentiate the Warlock from the Wizard, who receives magic through study, and especially the Sorcerer, who receives their magic by exposure to powerful magic (in PF). The Warlock under this fluff is feared for a reason: Strange and unknowable power are watching him, and there's a likelihood that he's serving these powers.

Edit: I'll be updating other changes here.

[ThiagoMartell]

Your fluff ironically brings the Warlock very close to the Witch :smalltongue:
I'd fo with the 4e pact thing (still very close to the Witch) and you even get your even-level abilities selected for you - choose among the 4e pacts and call it a day.

[Novawurmson]

Hrm. That really is pretty close to the Witch's worshiping the unknown, but I think the difference is mainly that the Witch actively seeks out her powers and attempts to commune with a greater power; with the Warlock, it can be completely unwanted. The Witch always brings it on her own head, while the Warlock might be persecuted for something her great-great-grandmother did, or for no reason except the whim of a fey who took an interest in them as a baby.

[Psyren]

Some of the DFA invocations fit Warlock like a glove and should be added to their list imo. For example: Magic Insight, Humanoid Shape, Baleful Geas, and Perilous Veil. Binder, Shadowcaster and Incarnate abilities are another good place to go for Invocation ideas.

[Novawurmson]

Gah. Forum ate my last post. I'll try to remember it all...

1. How many invocations known would be a better balance? Right now I'm thinking 16. Progression would go 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 8, 9 10, 11, 12, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 16. Would it be too much to just give them 1/level?

2. What abilities from prestige classes are considered critical to a Warlock functioning properly? The only one I know off the top of my head is the Hellfire Warlock's bonus to damage.

3. At this point, I'm planning on removing all or almost all of the minor bonuses (DR/Cold Iron, resistances, fiendish resilience, etc.) and replacing them with an Alchemist Discovery-like system. I'd include a lot of frequently desired Warlock feats as these "Discoveries," along with some straight damage increases, as well as improved versions of the original class features (DR/Cold Iron = 1/3 Warlock level maybe? Still working out exact numbers).

4. What would you call these Warlock "Discoveries?" I want something that emphasizes the "gift" nature of the class or the "outside influence" - something like Boon, Fate, Fortune, Destiny, Favor, Mark, Scar, Stain, Trace, Reaction, Corruption, Distortion...

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you are keeping essences and shapes as part of the same pool of invocation known, I'd say that 1 per level at the least. OTOH if you have a separate pools, maybe 16 at 20 + say 6 essences and maybe 4 shapes might be worth it

(Say Getting 1 essence per 3 levels and and 1 extra shape per 5 levels)

I also like Boon for the discoveries analoge

[Psyren]

1. I think 16 should be fine, but that's not based on any kind of math on my part. Assuming a Warlock always takes the highest invocation available, how much will he end up from each given category?

2. That's less a "prestige ability" and more a representation of 'locks needing more damage. With more damage, more invocations and better "discoveries" (see below) they should be fine.

3&4. I would go with "Boon." For more ideas, look at other Fey/Chaotic/Demonic creatures for the kind of abilities they gain, and also include ways to manipulate their invocations - e.g. a Boon that allows them to exclude allied squares from an invocation's effect, or another Boon that allows the Warlock to share a self-only invocation (perhaps by taking ability burn or some other such cost.)

[grarrrg]

Trying to do a quick update to the Warlock for PF. Sanity check for a few changes:

2. Increase skills per level to 4; they're a pretty limited class to begin with; this means they can pick up UMD, CC Perception, plus some social skills or Knowledges.

4. Change alignment to any, but usually chaotic (see below)

5. Change Eldritch Blast progression to 1d6+1d6 per two levels (as Rogue sneak attack). Problem created: level 14 is now a dead level.

3. At this point, I'm planning on removing all or almost all of the minor bonuses (DR/Cold Iron, resistances, fiendish resilience, etc.) and replacing them with an Alchemist Discovery-like system. I'd include a lot of frequently desired Warlock feats as these "Discoveries," along with some straight damage increases, as well as improved versions of the original class features (DR/Cold Iron = 1/3 Warlock level maybe? Still working out exact numbers).

2. None of the other (officially) converted classes got a Skill Bonus. If you give them access to more Invocations (and/or Essences), then leave it at 2, as they'll be able to pick up more 'utility' powers.


4. I'd change their alignment to Not Lawful Good, this stays closer to the original intent, while opening up the alignment options.


5 & 3. Agreed on the damage boost. Maybe make one of the "boons"
"+1d6 Blast damage, this Boon can be taken once for every X many levels of Warlock you have"

[Novawurmson]

@Psyren

I'll take a look at the DFA, that's a really good idea. I had a plan a while back to just combine the two classes...this might be a good time to put that in action.

1. This Warlock will end up with four from each category this way.

2. Well, I mean, the idea is that Warlocks need a little more damage to remain competitive at high levels; I'd rather include a way for the base class to increase its damage than to force people to prestige/multiclass.

3. I guess Boon is the winner. I like the idea of checking out critters for abilities for the Warlock.

@Dusk Eclipse

Huh. Maybe I'll just make the Blast Shape Invocations Boons? Also, I don't want to increase the number of Invocations too too much because Pathfinder means more feats, and more feats = more Extra Invocation's. I'm also planning on adding a "Morphic Blessing" feat/boon:


Morphic Blessing

Prerequisites: Extra Invocation, [Some other prerequisite like Knowledge (arcana) ranks]

Benefit: Each morning, you can choose an Invocation that you qualify for and gain the benefits of that Invocation until the next morning.

...to replace the Chameleon floating feat that's pretty commonly desired. This makes picking up every situational invocation far less important.

[ThiagoMartell]

+1 to the Boon idea.

One of the Boons should be a familiar of some sort.

For fluff, I'd say go with the "no one knows" approach. Say some think the power comes from pacts, others say it comes from blood, others say it comes from an interest from a supernatural being beyond our understanding, some say it comes from warlocks being possessed by spirits. That would be unique among the caster classes of Pathfinder and would be a reason for Warlocks to be feares - no one really knows what they are.

I also don't think you should add prestige class abilities to warlock. I mean, you're updating it for Pathfinder, not 'fixing' what is not broken, right?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Meh extra invocation is not that nice considering you have to select a lower tier of invocation than your highest.

Are you going to keep the discovery rate for boons? If so I guess Shapes could be a boon.

Or maybe do something similar to the sorcerer bloodlines (Pacts?) and that would give a set of essence and shapes, one of each one per Invocation tier. So an hypothetical warlock with a hypothethical Diabolical Pact would get Frightful Blast and dunno Eldritch spear for the least invocation tier, Brimstone Blast and Chain for the Lesser tier, Hindering Blast and cone for Greater and finally Utterdark blast and Eldritch Doom for the Dark tier.

(Checking them, also showed me how little variety is in essences and shapes in the higher tiers)

[ThiagoMartell]

There are two essences: Noxious and Vitriolic.
The others are simply not worth it.

[Psyren]

There are two essences: Noxious and Vitriolic.
The others are simply not worth it.

Hindering is good too, actually. Noxious is for targeting Fort, and Hindering for targeting Will. It does a good job at shutting down melee.

[Novawurmson]

Before I forget: Something I really want to do for the Warlock.

The Warlock need a capstone. I'm thinking something along the lines of the Witch's Grand Hex and the Alchemist's Grand Discovery. I'm thinking of calling it the Final Boon.

Also, minor: Changed Detect Magic to level 1. Because...seriously.

@ThiagoMartell

-Noted on the familiar.
-I like the "no one knows" bit, but I also like "it can happen a whole lot of different ways," as I feel "no one knows" is closer to the witch. That's why I'm focusing on the "gift" theme: There is some kind of intelligence behind each Warlock's powers, but whether that's a guardian spirit that's been protecting his family for generations or a horrible, god-eating monster that lives in the darkness between the stars is anyone's guess.
-The point of looking at prestige classes is to figure out what people want out of their class. The prevalence of Hellfire Warlock shows that people want more damage out of their 'locks, which is easy enough to fix. The prevalence of Eldritch Disciple tells me that people want Full BAB through Persisted Divine Power (the 3.5 version anyway), something I'm not planning on adding. However, a healing version of Eldritch Blast (usable a limited number of times per day) would be very doable.

@Dusk Eclipse

-What if Extra Invocation gave an invocation up to the highest level you have access to?
-Yes, Boons will be every even level, like the Discovery and Rogue Talent.
-Eh, I don't feel like they really need a bloodline-like feature. I could see an archetype with some unique shapes and stuff, though

[Novawurmson]

Ok, so this is how the class is looking right now:


1st Detect magic, Eldritch blast 1d6 /least 1
2nd Boon / least 2
3rd Eldritch blast 2d6 / least 3
4th Deceive Item, Boon / least 4
5th Eldritch blast 3d6 / least 4
6th Boon / lesser 1, least 4
7th Eldritch blast 4d6 / lesser 2, least 4
8th Boon / lesser 3, least 4
9th Eldritch blast 5d6 / lesser 4, least 4
10th Boon / lesser 4, least 4
11th Eldritch blast 6d6 / greater 1, lesser 4, least 4
12th Imbue Item, Boon / greater 2, lesser 4, least 4
13th Eldritch blast 7d6 / greater 3, lesser 4, least 4
14th Boon / greater 4, lesser 4, least 4
15th Eldritch blast 8d6 / greater 4, lesser 4, least 4
16th Boon /dark 1, greater 4, lesser 4, least 4
17th Eldritch blast 9d6 /dark 2, greater 4, lesser 4, least 4
18th Boon /dark 3, greater 4, lesser 4, least 4
19th Eldritch blast 10d6 /dark 4, greater 4, lesser 4, least 4
20th Final Boon /dark 4, greater 4, lesser 4, least 4

I'm thinking of giving it a minor bonus a la the Alchemist's poison resistance a low level...maybe a resistance to a chosen elemental? Reroll a save a number of times a day?

[ThiagoMartell]

Hindering is good too, actually. Noxious is for targeting Fort, and Hindering for targeting Will. It does a good job at shutting down melee.

Hindering Blast... hinders.
Noxious Blast lasts one minute. It's a "I Win" button.

[sdream]

I'm not sure why warlocks need an alignment restriction at all.

A wide variety of powers have all decided that lawful good peons just aren't worth empowering with spell like abilities?

While you are redoing things, why don't you FIX the broken essence and shape selection? Take them out of the invocation pool and balance them more equally so you can take them at any level and adding more just gives flexibility.

Elemental Essence: Choose Acid, Fire, Lightning, or cold each time you take this essence. Your blast may deal that type of damage, subject to ER but not SR.
Force Essence: Your blast hits objects for full damage, and is also fully effective against incorporeal and ethereal targets.

Doom Shape: Your blast hits all targets within a 30' sphere, fort negates
Cone Shape: Your blast hits all targets in a 60' cone, reflex halves
Melee Shape: Free action to invoke anytime, threatens as if armed
Reach Shape: Standard action to form, free action to dismiss, 10' reach

Then do levels as:

1: Blast, shape or essence, Invocation
2: Boon, Invocation
Repeat to 20.

Make detect magic and deceive item a package boon.
Make +5 one ER of your choice stacking to 20 then immunity a boon
Make +1 DR a boon (your choice of silver or cold iron)

I would have feats to provide an extra boon, shape or essence, or invocation.

Simple, flexible, might be overpowered, I would nerf by taking blast or essence off odd levels and declaring them boons.

[Novawurmson]

I'm not sure why warlocks need an alignment restriction at all. A wide variety of powers have all decided that lawful good peons just aren't worth empowering with spell like abilities?

Neither do I. Right now they're "Any, usually Chaotic" in my version.


While you are redoing things, why don't you FIX the broken essence and shape selection? Take them out of the invocation pool and balance them more equally so you can take them at any level and adding more just gives flexibility.

That's an idea. I'll take a good look at them. Feel free to make suggestions.


Elemental Essence: Choose Acid, Fire, Lightning, or cold each time you take this essence. Your blast may deal that type of damage, subject to ER but not SR.

I'd like to do something a little different with these...like give them the bonus that the different types of Energy Ray get (+1 damage/die for fire and frost, bonus on attack rolls against metal targets for electricity, etc.). Still, something like this will be on there.


Force Blast: Your blast hits objects for full damage, and is also fully effective against incorporeal and ethereal targets.

Eh...I feel like sonic is more appropriate to dealing full damage to objects?


Doom: Your blast hits all targets within a 30' sphere, fort negates

I like it. I might go 20 ft radius, fort for half like Channel Energy


Make detect magic and deceive item a package boon.

Detect Magic is free at level 1. Deceive Item is free at level 4. EVERYTHING doesn't have to be a boon :D

Then do levels as:


1: Blast, shape or essence, Invocation
2: Boon, Invocation
Repeat to 20.

I would have feats to provide an extra boon, shape or essence, or invocation.

Eh, if it needs it. I think being able to pick up shape (and maybe essence, still looking it over).

Also, I'm thinking about just making the Dragonfire Adept an Archetype of this class. Thoughts?

[sdream]

Also, I'm thinking about just making the Dragonfire Adept an Archetype of this class. Thoughts?

I do love archetypes and alternate class features. The flexability they provide is one of the things I tend to miss most about homebrew. It's one of the reasons I erred on the side of oversimplifying boons, essences, etc - if all your features are yours to select, then DFA doesn't even need to be an archetype, just chop it up into boons, essences, and shapes and let all warlocks mix in as much DFA as they want to buy. Flexability without special named packages.

It's been a while since I played a warlock, and I've never done a study of DFA so I'm not sure I could help much, but if I'm bored tomorrow I'll see what I can do to read up and toss in some more suggestions.

[Novawurmson]

Looking at the DFA (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2)...

1. It gets 8 "draconic" invocations.

2. Flame breath that scales to 9d6 at 20

3. Inverted BAB/HD as Warlock; would work fine as d8/ 3/4 BAB.

4. Breath effects that fit in perfect with Boons.

5. Natural AC bonus that works as a boon.

6. Worthless DR

7. Minor Diplomacy bonus with dragons. Because everyone knows that celebrities love their fans.

8. Immunity to paralysis and sleep. Can you say boon?

Soooooo... all in all, perfect to cannibalize into the Warlock!

Edit: Also, I'll call it out as having a recharge time of 0 rounds, making it eligible for metabreath feats.

[Psyren]

Hindering Blast... hinders.
Noxious Blast lasts one minute. It's a "I Win" button.

Oh, I'm not disputing NB's strength. But it's always good to have a save or lose for each save - especially since NB won't work on constructs/undead at all.

@Nova: Warlocks, being an SLA-focused class, also need a way to "heighten" their invocations (similar to the Truenamer's method.) The save DCs of their attacks scale very slowly, and effects like Globe of Invulnerability can shut them down very easily. Of course, this carries the inherent drawback of the Concentration check becoming exponentially more difficult thanks to PF.

[Malroth]

Feat: Eldritch Power add +1d6 to your eldritch blast damage you may take this feat once every 3 levels

[Novawurmson]

@Psyren - Aha, good point. Most of the saves should be 10+1/2 Warlock Level +Cha, I would think, with a Boon to increase the save DCs somehow. Not sure how to handle the spell level bit just yet, I'll have to think on that.


Feat: Eldritch Power add +1d6 to your eldritch blast damage you may take this feat once every 3 levels

Thinking more like once and then once again for every 5 levels beyond the first. I want to look at some DPR calculators before I make a firm decision.

[grarrrg]

Looking at the DFA (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2)...

1. It gets 8 "draconic" invocations.
2. Flame breath that scales to 9d6 at 20
4. Breath effects that fit in perfect with Boons.
5. Natural AC bonus that works as a boon.
6. Worthless DR
7. Minor Diplomacy bonus with dragons. Because everyone knows that celebrities love their fans.
8. Immunity to paralysis and sleep. Can you say boon?

Soooooo... all in all, perfect to cannibalize into the Warlock!

Edit: Also, I'll call it out as having a recharge time of 0 rounds, making it eligible for metabreath feats.

I'd make most of the Dragonfire adept stuff an 'archetype' of the Warlock(PF).

Invocations can be chosen from either list, for either option.

Plain Warlock has a Single Target Blast that is usable every round.
Dragonfire Archetype has an Area Breath Weapon, with a 1d4 (to start) recharge time. Add a Boon that reduces recharge time.

A Warlock taking the DR Boon gets DR/Cold Iron.
A Dragonfire Warlock taking the DR Boon gets DR/Adamantine (?).

Etc...

[Novawurmson]

I really want to make it so that you can "build your own DFA" using the class features of the Warlock, and I think I know how to do it:

1. At first level, the Warlock does not get "ray" blast shape for free; instead, she gets to choose from a variety of options, including a 15 foot cone and a melee attack. All blast forms will essentially be least invocations available from level 1 that scale; for example, the melee one have a damage increase, be able to be used as many times as you can get a full attack at a certain level, and gain reach at a certain level. The cone will increase in size and eventually all allies will automatically pass their saves against it, as well as be eligible for metabreath feats.

2. At first level, the Warlock does not automatically get an untyped damage source for free. Instead, she chooses from a list:

Untyped - (Allows SR, does not allow resistances or DR)
Fire/Cold/Acid/Sonic (maybe)/Electricity - (Allow respective resistances, do not allow SR or DR
Bludgeoning / Piercing / Slashing - (Allow DR, do not all resistances or SR)

Each of them allow evolving benefits that scale with level.

It's in a rough form right now, but I think this is very doable and flavorful. Instead of pointing at someone and "dark energy" hurts them, how about having a 20ft radius of thorns explode from your body?

[Psyren]

I'm against the DFA being an archetype, personally. I like the idea of there being another invocation-using class, just as I like the idea of 2-3 Incarnum classes, or the Soulknife and Aegis being separate extensions of the same theme. The DFA should be combined with the Dragon Shaman instead - a class with a breath weapon, less invocations, and draconic auras.

[Novawurmson]

Working on a Google doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/16_upSthiyzr6rVChMYYCZEBTe-0bJ0UodpwfqMR7l4A/edit) for a proper and clean way to display the information to the world. Obviously a WIP, but once the Boons and altered eldritch blast are properly written down it'll be playable/playtestable at least.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I am not sure; but don't all spellcasting classes (or classes with built-in access to a fly speed) get Fly as a class skill? If so I am sure the warlock should get it.

[Wyntonian]

Perhaps this ought to be moved to the homebrew board? I love the discussion that's going on here.

[Novawurmson]

I am not sure; but don't all spellcasting classes (or classes with built-in access to a fly speed) get Fly as a class skill? If so I am sure the warlock should get it.

Absolutely. I updated that immediately.


Perhaps this ought to be moved to the homebrew board? I love the discussion that's going on here.

I'll eventually cross post this to Homebrew (once it's 80-90%) complete; however, I feel like I'm getting a lot of good feedback about both PF design and the 3.5 Warlock here for now. Once it comes to playtesting and beyond, I'll migrate; as long as it's still theoretical, I'll remain here.

[Novawurmson]

What do you think are the worst Invocations/Invocations that need the most work?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Lonely tylenol made a really good invocation analysis on the new Warlock handbook, might be a good idea to check it.

From the top of my head, hideous blow, Dark discorporation and hammer blast are the worst Imo.

[Novawurmson]

Lonely tylenol made a really good invocation analysis on the new Warlock handbook, might be a good idea to check it.

From the top of my head, hideous blow, Dark discorporation and hammer blast are the worst Imo.

Yeah, I've been reading over his list :D

Eldritch Glaive and Hideous Blow are getting combined for this update.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think they could still be separated, let the glaive keep the touch attack and AoO fun and perhaps changing Hideous Blow to be a swift action (ala ToB boost) and just add the EB damage to the weapon while allowing to bypass DR/Magic. Now a warlock can choose to either have a slightly lower damage potential (glaive) and more accuracy or Increase their damage with the normal tricks (power attack, vital strike, etc. ) but at lower accuracy and possibly more attacks (Twf?)

[Novawurmson]

I think they could still be separated, let the glaive keep the touch attack and AoO fun and perhaps changing Hideous Blow to be a swift action (ala ToB boost) and just add the EB damage to the weapon while allowing to bypass DR/Magic. Now a warlock can choose to either have a slightly lower damage potential (glaive) and more accuracy or Increase their damage with the normal tricks (power attack, vital strike, etc. ) but at lower accuracy and possibly more attacks (Twf?)

Hrm. You've got a point there. I don't like it as a needing a swift action every round (maybe swift action to coat the weapons in you energy, remains for a number of rounds equal to caster level or until you use your eldritch blast in any other form?)

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not sure, I was just throwing some ideas out in the air, perhaps until you use another form of Eldritch blast or CL/rounds whichever happens first?

[Novawurmson]

Not sure, I was just throwing some ideas out in the air, perhaps until you use another form of Eldritch blast or CL/rounds whichever happens first?

Great minds think alike XD

Also, added some fluff (spoilered for length):

The quest of sentient experience is a quest of understanding: To understand others, to understand the world, to understand what cannot be seen, and most importantly, to understand one's self. Some will never be able to reach this mark, as they themselves are unknowable.

While the Wizard, Witch and the Alchemist toil for their magical knowledge, pouring over old tomes, worshiping unseen forces, or feverishly stirring toxic mixtures, the Warlock simply...is. It exists in its current state for no reason that it or anyone can plausibly hope to know. Though many suggestions have been put forward - the interference of outsiders, gods, spirits, fey, and the like being the most common - the simple truth is that none of these can be confirmed or denied, leading to misinformation and ultimately fear of Warlocks.

Though others might try to theorize and rationalize their powers, Warlocks themselves often feel a deep sense of belonging or importance, as if their powers were given to them out of love or because they deserved them in some way. As a result, arrogance is a common trait of Warlocks, even well-meaning ones. Lawful and good Warlocks often feel a sense of duty to use their abilities and supposed higher station for the good of others, while chaotic and evil Warlocks more commonly see their "gifts" as a license to ignore those that they see as "beneath them." There is some variation; some Warlocks feel indebted to those who granted them power and seek to serve however possible.

Warlock powers manifest most frequently in early childhood, leading to problems in all but the most understanding communities. Most of the Warlock's powers are destructive in nature, and even a kind young child is not prepared to harness such dangerous abilities. Few parents are willing to see anything but death or banishment for a "demon child" that killed son or daughter, even in an accident. Warlocks of a more manipulative nature that use their blossoming abilities to control and manipulate others often fare better. Exceptions always exist, of course: A Warlock born to a caste of warrior-spell casters might quickly find a place of honor among her people, and a temple priest with a Warlock son might carefully train him to harness his power to protect others.

[Psyren]

Hideous Blow eldritching up your weapon sounds fantastic to me. Though I would watch the damage; (full EB damage + weapon damage + any enhancements + Str + Power Attack) * iteratives sounds like it could be pretty crazy for DMs to deal with.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was temped to say to make it usable x/times per day, I mean it is quite similar to the output that a Pally can get with his smite; but it would be completlely at odds with the Warlocks stichk as the Energizer bunny. Maybe reducing the damage dies (half EB die minimum 1?) or completely replace the weqpon damage ane include a note that size changes don't affect it (large warlocks would hate this; but smaller sized ones might love this)

[Novawurmson]

I'm thinking maybe hideous blow only hits on the first attack to begin with, gradually increasing in power.

[Psyren]

I would have it apply half EB damage rounded up. So you get a boost from it but nothing too crazy.

Glaive would do full EB damage, but you'd miss out on a lot of the weapon boosts/tricks with it.

Both should start as a standard, then fade to a move->swift to activate as you gain levels.

[ThiagoMartell]

Eldritch glaive as a standard action would opne up a lot of abuse regarding positioning and attacks of opportunity.
Once you get it as a swift action and Combat Patrol... ouch

[Novawurmson]

OK, I had an idea which is now bogging me down, and I want to talk it out a bit more:

I was working on a way to completely subsume the Dragonfire Adept into the Warlock. The primary difference (in my eyes) was twofold:

1. The Warlock's eldritch blast is a ray (as opposed to a cone).

2. The Warlock's eldritch blast is untyped (as opposed to typed by dragon color).

It seemed a simple enough fix: Let the Warlock choose from several different base blast shapes and several different blast damage types from level 1. Blast shapes have already been discussed a little, and I think melee is still going to be the biggest issue there, but that's not what I wanted to talk about.

Even though I've thrown out the idea of completely replacing the DFA, I still like the idea of giving the Warlock their choice of blast shape and type from level 1. The current list of level 1 types:

Esoteric (the old eldritch blast damage; subject to SR)
Acid
Cold
Electricity
Fire
Sonic (the elemental types are subject to appropriate resistances, but not SR)
Piercing
Slashing
Bludgeoning (the physical types are subject to DR, but not SR or resistances)

...the problem I'm running in to is that I want the various damage types to be unique from each other without any being a clear optimization choice, and I am not creative enough.

A few concepts:

-Damage over time (Fire? Acid?) - Deals one damage per die of eldritch blast the turn after dealing damage
-Bonus on attack rolls/saves (Electricity?) - Bonus on attack rolls v. armored targets/unarmored targets/etc.
-Full damage to objects, reduce die by one size (Sonic)
-The physical ones would eventually need to count as magic for overcoming damage reduction.

A (Potentially) Boring Solution:

There are only three blast types: Esoteric, Elemental, and Physical. Elemental gets +1 damage per die (remove sonic entirely and make it a boon) to make up for the prevalence of immunities/resistances; Esoteric gets...something; Physical gets a bonus to attack rolls and save DCs?

[Psyren]

I'd look at the orb spells, or psionic powers (incliuding the Paraelemental effects from CPsi) for ideas on secondary effects. I disagree with making the blasts bypass SR; that should be a perk of acid the way it is now. Alchemist bombs can do that, but also have limited ammunition and much shorter range. Instead, allow the Warlock to apply feats like Spell Penetration to their blasts so that they can punch through if they need to, without being pigeonholed into acid.

[Novawurmson]

I'd look at the orb spells, or psionic powers (incliuding the Paraelemental effects from CPsi) for ideas on secondary effects. I disagree with making the blasts bypass SR; that should be a perk of acid the way it is now. Alchemist bombs can do that, but also have limited ammunition and much shorter range. Instead, allow the Warlock to apply feats like Spell Penetration to their blasts so that they can punch through if they need to, without being pigeonholed into acid.

I actually just looked at the orb spells yesterday :P

Hrm.

[grarrrg]

-Damage over time (Fire? Acid?) - Deals one damage per die of eldritch blast the turn after dealing damage
-Bonus on attack rolls/saves (Electricity?) - Bonus on attack rolls v. armored targets/unarmored targets/etc.
-Full damage to objects, reduce die by one size (Sonic)
-The physical ones would eventually need to count as magic for overcoming damage reduction.

A (Potentially) Boring Solution:

There are only three blast types: Esoteric, Elemental, and Physical. Elemental gets +1 damage per die (remove sonic entirely and make it a boon) to make up for the prevalence of immunities/resistances; Esoteric gets...something; Physical gets a bonus to attack rolls and save DCs?

I kind of like these ideas.
Whatever Element/Type you choose comes with certain bonuses.
I'm just throwing these out here for now:

X does 1 damage per Die in a 5ft. Splash radius (Acid? possibly drop the Die size down to 1d4 so as not outclass Alchemist)

Force Blast, deals Force damage to a single target (as a Ray), but only does d4's worth of damage (and/or can only use it every other round).

Cold to lower target's speed.

Cold to lower target's AC.

Electricity can 'pierce' enemies, but targets must be a straight line.

[Novawurmson]

I like all of these, but they all see too good to give out for free at first level as a baseline for the class. Obviously, the idea of cooler damage types and abilities has struck a cord.

For now, hows about this:

1. The "base" Warlock eldritch blast will remain a typeless ray.
2. The essences to make the eldritch blast deal different types of damage will be cooler and more easily available.
3. Blast shape invocations will all be available at lower levels, but scale with level.

Sound good?

[Novawurmson]

Random idea I just had...

What would you think about invocations or boons with a small base ability that can be "tapped" for a bigger bonus, but that puts them on cooldown for a few rounds? League of Legends players should have an idea of what I'm talking about here...think of Master Yi's Wuju Style (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Master_Yi_the_Wuju_Bladesman). For those not familiar, basically the character gains a moderate bonus to his physical damage, which he can activate to get an even bigger bonus, but once the ability ends, he loses the moderate bonus until it's available again. Maybe something like this for a boon:


Fiery Core (Su) - Whenever the Warlock deals damage with his eldritch blast, he can choose to deal fire damage instead of untyped damage. Doing so increases the total damage by 1 per class level, but the blast is subject to fire resistance.

Additionally, the Warlock can tap into his fiery gift to increase the damage of his eldritch blast to 1d6+1 per class level (including the bonus from Fiery Core), but after doing so, he becomes burnt out for 1d4 rounds. While burnt out, the Warlock cannot deal fire damage with his eldritch blast and does not gain the bonus damage from Fiery Core.

Edit: Put it in a quote box.

[sdream]

EDIT - It seems most folks have forgotten this thread, which is a pity, as I would like a nice, non-broken Pathfinder warlock.

EDIT 2 - I am concerned that out of our love for warlock we are trying to make it a viable competition for a tier 1 or highly optimized builds... in other words pre-breaking it. I think we should keep in mind the class which warlock ACTUALLY most imitates is tier 3, and aim to avoid allowing obviously overpowered characters. In particular, if Warlocks are getting gifts, shapes, and essences seperately, I believe this should cover all aspects of invocations. Like rogues, greater gifts should come online at level 10.

Class: Warlock

Role: A warlock leverages innate unnatural gifts to similar versatile ends as the preternaturally talented rogues. Warlocks do not cast true spells, but rather apply a small selection of spell like abilities an unlimited number of times each day. Regardless of where any given warlock's power comes from, each has learned to channel it in a variety of ways which keep getting more varied and powerful as they grow in experience.

Alignment: Any

Hit Die: d8

Starting Wealth: 4d6 x 10gp (average 140 gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.

Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy(Cha), Disguise(Cha), Intimidate(Cha), Knowledge Arcana(Int), Knowledge Planes(Int), Knowledge Religion(Int), Profession(Wis), Sense Motive(Wis), Spellcraft(Int), Use Magic Device(Cha)

Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier

Table Building info:

3/4 BAB, Good Will Save
Odd levels: +1d6 Warlock Blast and add an essence or shape
(1st level pick both an essence and a shape)
Even levels 2-8: Warlock Gift (invocations that grow)
Even levels 10+ Warlock Advanced Gift (more powerful or multiple gifts)


General Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Warlocks are proficient with all simple weapons. They are proficient with light armor but not with shields.

All warlock spell like abilities require only simple motions, allowing their use without chance of failure in light armor. Heavier armor and shields produce normal spell failure for warlock abilities, and warlocks suffer normal spell failure for non-warlock abilities even in light armor.

Unless otherwise noted on the ability, all warlock gifts are spell like abilities which take a standard action to use, provoke attacks of opportunity and can be disrupted exactly like casting a spell. Gifts which are cast can also generally only be active once at any given time, the previous castings wearing off as a new one is cast. Many gifts duplicate buffing spells, except they usually only apply to the warlock and they often have extended or indefinite duration.

Warlock Blast:
The most basic and first mastered gift of the unending power inside a warlock is simply to blast it directly in a foe's face. This spell like ability is called the warlock blast, and deals a small amount of damage at first... slowly increasing at the same rate a rogue's sneak attack increases (+1d6 every odd level). As a general rule (which is modified by some warlock gifts and archetypes) every blast has a exactly one shape and one essence.

Essences and Shapes:
On odd levels, when warlocks improve the power of their warlock blast, they also master new ways of channeling that energy. They may choose a new essence or a new shape to master on every odd level (one of each at first level). While the essences govern what kind of damage the blast does (and often how it can be resisted), shapes govern who it can target (and often how easily it can be used).

Essences (blast damage type and resistance)

Eldritch - this essence ignores damage and elemental resistances, but is subject to spell resistance, it also deals only half damage to objects (before hardness).

Elemental - Select one of Fire, Cold, Electricity, or Acid each time you select this essence. The blast ignores damage and spell resistance, but is reduced by the corresponding elemental resistance, and effects objects as usual for elemental damage.

Force - this essence deals full damage to objects, ethereal and intangible creatures, and ignores spell, elemental, and DR/magic resistances, but it is doubly reduced by all other DRs, and any force based AC on the target.

Weakening - this essence deals only 1 point of damage per d6, but it deals it as strength damage. The target receives a fort save to negate this effect.

Pushing - This essence deals no damage, but moves the target 5' per d6 if it fails a reflex save.

Dazing - This essence deals no damage, but the target is dazed for 1 round per d6 if it fails to make a will save.

Shapes (blast targets and use)

Cone: Your blast effects a 15' cone with a reflex save for half damage, although you may increase that to 20', maximize all variable numeric effects and increase the save DC by 2 if you are willing to lose access to your blast entirely for the next 3 turns.

Spear - long range single touch attack, at high level ignores cover

Chain - Short range hopping effect, increasing with level

Ball - Reflex halves

Wall - This creates a 5' thick wall with an area of 10 square feet per level which lasts as long as you concentrate upon it. Anyone passing through the wall or standing in it is treated as hit by your blast, although anything in the wall when it is created gets a Reflex save to negate the damage and be shifted to the side of their choice.

Shield - Adds a shield bonus to your AC equal to your blast D6s, and if an enemy misses a melee attack on you by that amount or less, it is treated as hit by your blast. This shield lasts until you use your blast ability again.

Weapon - Your blast enriches a single melee weapon (natural or manufactured). It is applied to all successful attacks you make with that weapon until you use your blast again.

Glaive - Using this blast is a full action, but it allows you to make iteritive touch attacks with your blast throughout the round as if you had reach. This action must be cast each round, and requires concentration be maintained to make attacks, including attacks of opportunity.


Warlock Gifts:


Lingering Blast - After a foe takes damage from one of your blasts, if you do not successfully blast him again the next round he will suffer an echo of half the original damage. If your blast leaves an effect with a duration simply increase the duration by 50%.

Magic Mastery - You may detect magic at will, at lvl 4 you can take 10 on any UMD roll in any circumstance, at lvl 6 you may substitute a UMD roll as if you had a scroll of any spell required to craft a magical item, should you have a crafting feat, and at lvl 8 you can dispel magic.

Elemental Resistance - You increase your permanent elemental resistance (from any feat, class, race, or trait) by a total of 5, spread as you wish across the elements (even if some were 0 prior). If this causes any elemental resistance to exceed 24, it is treated as immunity. You may take this gift multiple times.

Damage resistance - You may gain DR2/silver or cold iron or you may increase an existing source of DR by 2 points. You may take this gift multiple times.

Speech - You have a +3 eldritch bonus to bluff+diplomacy+intimidate, at 4th level you gain the Wild empathy class feature and can always speak with animals, at 6th you are always under the effect of tongues, and at 8th you can charm monsters, although this is limited to those with HD equal or less than your level.

Sight - You are always under the effect of darkvision and gain a +3 eldritch bonus to perception, at 4th level you can always see invisible, at 6th you always have arcane sight, and at 8th you can maintain one of these effects on an ally of your choice as well.

Invisibility - You can Vanish at will, at 4th level you can include one ally per 2 levels beyond 2nd. At 6th level and beyond this effect has no fixed duration. At 8th level you gain the ability to also keep one creature invisible despite any hostile actions on it's part, as greater invisibility, for one round per 2 levels.

Lightness - You are always under the effects of feather fall, at 4th you can cast this immediatly as the spell on others, at 6th level you can levitate, and at 8th level you may grant overland flight to yourself and up to lvl/2 allies in a contact chain with you.

Nonfixed - Your location is shifting and indeterminant, hindering ranged attacks as if you were always under the effects of entropic shield, at 4th this effect functions against all non-area attacks, at 6th level you can Blink yourself (note that miss chances do not stack), and at 8th you can Dimension Door taking others with you as the spell except with short range.

Undead - ... and at 8th you can animate dead.


Advanced Warlock Gifts:

Double Gift: You may select two non-advanced warlock gifts.

Double shape - You can use two different shapes at once, although any given target can only be affected once by each blast, if the shapes overlap they would have to evade both to escape, taking full effect if for example, they made their save, but you made your attack roll.

Double essence - You may apply two different essences to a blast at the same time, but they are both subject to both resistances, saves, or restrictions. If the essences both deal HP damage, damage is only applied once, but only the resistance which would reduce it the least is applied.

Final Double - You may double all numerical effects of your blast ability (in any shape or essences) for this entire round, but on your next round your blast disappears completely and you lose the ability to use it again until you spend a full minute doing nothing but rest.

Spell Resistance - You may gain exceptional spell resistance of 10+warlock level.

Domination - As Dominate monster, but recasting it releases the previous dominee, regardless of success or failure, and the target cannot have more hit dice than your warlock level.

Channel Blast: You gain channel energy as a class feature, usable once per minute. To deliver it to targets you must use it as a blast essence with your mastered blast shapes. You must also have use of your blast ability to use it for any other feat or item. You must chose whether you channel positive or negative energy when you select this gift. You may select this gift multiple times, adding another positive or negative channel charge per minute each time it is selected.

Planar Travel - You may Shadow Walk as the spell.

More than mortal - Your warlock gifts function normally with respect to yourself and anyone you are touching or striking in melee, despite any areas of low, no, anti or twisted magic. They ignore spell immunity, artifact, god status, and DM fiat, with the exception that spell resistance, targeted dispells and counterspells which take at least a standard action function upon them with only a -5 to the negating roll.


My original post follows:

Adding a tap effect to a whole class of things seems very bad to me.

1 - Folks will be looking to exploit rotating taps
2 - Everyone will have to deal with tracking cooldowns, a headache for GMs
3 - Coming up with balanced tap effects for all of these is unlikely

If you want to add something along those lines it should be a shape or a boon gift that gives an option to amplify whatever effect you are using in exchange for not being able to use it for a while afterward. You can see both above.

[Novawurmson]

OK, picking this project back up. I got into a major mental roadblock trying to mix the DFA into the class, which I think was ultimately not wanted or necessary; mashing up the DFA and Dragon Shaman would be a more useful, future project that I'm not going to get into now.

I think a better use of time would be to restructure the current blast essences and shapes so that they're more balanced (both relative to other classes and against each other) and all/almost all available from level 1.

@sdream - I didn't see all your edits. I will definitely be stealing from here as I move forward.

[Psyren]

I would rather mash together the DFA + DS than the Warlock + DFA myself. Then if anything use a PrC to meld those two classes into one. Such a PrC would solve the problem of needing fey/fiendish + draconic flavor, as you can now simply set the requirement that the character have both through X and Y ability and the players themselves will come up with the flavor needed.

I like sdream's stuff, but where a Gift is passive (e.g. the SR gift) it might be a good idea to specify that it doesn't take an action to activate.

[Novawurmson]

I like sdream's stuff, but where a Gift is passive (e.g. the SR gift) it might be a good idea to specify that it doesn't take an action to activate.

Like discoveries/magus arcana/rogue talents, I'll be mixing in passive and active boons. Writing up some boons now, as a matter of fact.

Edit: Also writing up some edited blast shape invocations.

[sdream]

Like discoveries/magus arcana/rogue talents, I'll be mixing in passive and active boons. Writing up some boons now, as a matter of fact.

Edit: Also writing up some edited blast shape invocations.

A couple things:

1) Yay! It's not dead!

2) Yay! Several folks liked my input!

3) It's quite minor, but think about using gift instead of boon:
- both words are not used heavily in other class abilities
- both words are defined as either innate or externally granted
- Few know "boon" has both meanings, many have never heard it
- "gifted" warlock vs "talented" rogues (there is no "booned")

4) As I mentioned in my edits, warlocks lack the skills of rogues, but we should make sure not to uniformly outstrip them via gifts/boons in our haste to match the classes with spell slots.

5) As part of 4 I think many of my gifts are overpowered, and might do with being broken up into gift chains with prerequisites.

6) I'm definitely liking the idea of DFA and DS as archetypes.

[Novawurmson]

A couple things:

1) Yay! It's not dead!

2) Yay! Several folks liked my input!

3) It's quite minor, but think about using gift instead of boon:
- both words are not used heavily in other class abilities
- both words are defined as either innate or externally granted
- Few know "boon" has both meanings, many have never heard it
- "gifted" warlock vs "talented" rogues (there is no "booned")

4) As I mentioned in my edits, warlocks lack the skills of rogues, but we should make sure not to uniformly outstrip them via gifts/boons in our haste to match the classes with spell slots.

5) As part of 4 I think many of my gifts are overpowered, and might do with being broken up into gift chains with prerequisites.

6) I'm definitely liking the idea of DFA and DS as archetypes.

1. Nope! I've just got a lot of projects I'm working on, so I have to rotate my time between them.

2. Input is always appreciated!

3. The reason I like "boon" better than "gift" is that "boon" sounds a bit more old-fashioned and has more "spiritual" connotations (its etymology linked with words for prayer (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boon)). I wouldn't mind using "gift" and cognates as names for boons (i.e. "Gifted Craftsman," "Gift of the Invoker," etc.), but I feel "gift" is the more pedestrian term. I don't feel I've heard "boon" meaning "innate talent" before as well.

4. Yup. I'm thinking of retooling the +6 invocations to give a scaling benefit a la PF Skill Focus (i.e. maybe +3, improving to +6 at level 10) to encourage staying as a warlock instead of dipping. I'm aiming for about the power level of the Alchemist/Inquisitor/Magus - solid tier 3.

5. The main problem I had with a lot of your gifts was that a lot were spell-like abilities that the warlock already gains through invocations. I have no problem with handing out spell-like abilities through boons, it's just that they should give unique benefits that the warlock can't gain otherwise - see my Improved Regeneration boon. I would like to add boons with limited uses per day.

I'd also recommend reading over the Warlock Faq with Rich Baker (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19520666/Warlock_Faq_by_Rich_Baker), which gives some interesting insight into WotC's design goals with the warlock, much of which I'll be sticking to.


Warlocks tend to be selfish casters, too--don't give out many buff-your-friends or move-your-friends abilities. Most warlock stuff should hurt people or help the warlock and only the warlock.

Overall, I really like the idea of boons that build and grow on each other, and will try to include "improved" versions of boons as much as possible.

6. I liked the idea at first, but I liked Psyren's suggestion of "two classes that share a system" better; if I was importing Magic of Incarnum into PF, I probably wouldn't just combine the three classes, despite the fact that they share a subsystem. That being said, I think it would be pretty easy to build a dragon-themed character with this homebrew conversion.

[sdream]

3. The reason I like "boon" better than "gift" is that "boon" sounds a bit more old-fashioned and has more "spiritual" connotations...I don't feel I've heard "boon" meaning "innate talent" before as well.

Remember that one of the most common complaints about warlocks is that despite the overall fluff supposedly being not picky about where a warlock's power comes from, the detailed individual connotations of most invocations was all specific to one (demonic pact) fluff source. I agree that most folks associate boon with something granted by an outside force, which seems to load the class with some specific fluff by connotation.



5. The main problem I had with a lot of your gifts was that a lot were spell-like abilities that the warlock already gains through invocations. I have no problem with handing out spell-like abilities through boons, it's just that they should give unique benefits that the warlock can't gain otherwise - see my Improved Regeneration boon.

You might have missed a main point of my suggestion then. If you are handing out blast shapes, blast essences, and both static and active boon/gifts --- you are already covering all the aspects invocations used to provide, and handing out more of them (in total of all types). An additional list of invocations (another word whose definition is rich in external influence fluff) seems both redundant and overkill.

Thus my gifts were packages of related invocations or warlock class benefits, from which the player could select the flavor and ability he was looking for. It would be possible to build a warlock who simply hit things and was very tough, while making use of all your class abilities, or you could have a true master of many unlimited spell like abilities, no tougher than any other mortal.



I would like to add boons with limited uses per day.
[...]
I'd also recommend reading over the Warlock Faq with Rich Baker (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19520666/Warlock_Faq_by_Rich_Baker), which gives some interesting insight into WotC's design goals with the warlock, much of which I'll be sticking to.

I'll give it a read, but the sticking to their original design goals doesn't seem as essential to me as keeping the flow and feel of the class flexible and friendly. (Giving it that .25 polish for pathfinder).

In my mind the single defining aspect of warlock is an arcane rogue whose power is only limited by time, not daily rest. Limited daily uses runs directly counter to that core mechanic, and should only be reserved for special cases (unlimited heals are specifically avoided in orisions so they are only available to warlocks as an advanced gift, and by level 10 wands of CLW might as well be unlimited).

As for being selfish with powers, I think that is a decent starting point for most powers, but I would like to see a good amount of their powers have secondary party friendly applications (see the latter half of my gifts). In my mind powers that can applied to others are an ideal way to help party cohesiveness. Your power enables another player to shine, and helps keep the party from being divided by location or ability. (This is especially important for mobility and sneaking powers, where they literally prevent the party from being split.) I actually advocate replacing all self-only spells with "PC-only" for normal casters, regardless of what system you are using.

[Novawurmson]

Remember that one of the most common complaints about warlocks is that despite the overall fluff supposedly being not picky about where a warlock's power comes from, the detailed individual connotations of most invocations was all specific to one (demonic pact) fluff source.

Ouch. I specifically set out to remove a lot of the "omg ur a demon guy" fluff from the class because I thought it was too restricting and ended up attaching my own preconceived notion of what the warlock is to the class. Huh. Part of my problem is that I'm trying to justify the fluff behind the warlock as opposed to several different classes:

1. The warlock is easily distinguished from the Wizard, the Alchemist, and the Magus, as these gain power over magic through study.
2. I feel like PF's bloodlines have defined the Sorcerer as the magic of "exposure" - whether through family, accident, or pact. A sorcerer is someone who was/is in close contact with a powerful source of magic.
3. The witch gains her powers by communion with an outside, unknown force, by means of a relationship with a familiar.
4. The oracle receives her powers by means of a divine blessing that leaves her crippled in some way, most similar to the unlucky priests and priestesses of Greek mythology, driven by the winds of fate.

Where does the warlock fit into this? The answer I came up with is that the warlock, for whatever reason, attracted the attention of a powerful spiritual force - often an outsider or fey - who marked them, often as a sign of punishment, ownership, or protection. The who, the why, and the how are nearly impossible to determine and usually burdensome to the warlock. I liked the idea that most warlocks felt arrogant or better than their peers for their nearly limitless power, and most would see their powers as a blessing. In that context, I preferred the word "boon," but looking back on it, I feel that "boon" has a very similar meaning to "gift" in that both of them imply that the powers a warlock receives are granted as a blessing - which is more restrictive. Now I don't think I like "boon" or "gift."

I'd like an even more neutral word. "Mark," "Sign," "Trace," "Stain," "Imprint," "Brand," "Omen," "Symbol"... all of these are a little more what I'm going for; it could be a curse, it could be a transformation, it could be any number of things; the point is that it sets the warlock apart.



You might have missed a main point of my suggestion then. If you are handing out blast shapes, blast essences, and both static and active boon/gifts --- you are already covering all the aspects invocations used to provide, and handing out more of them (in total of all types). An additional list of invocations (another word whose definition is rich in external influence fluff) seems both redundant and overkill.

I was thinking about this earlier today, and I can see your point a bit more now. I'd like to propose the following concept for the warlock:

1. Invocations are spell like abilities usable an unlimited number of times a day, or extremely long duration buffs that mimic spells. Breath of the Night, Spider Walk, and Summon Swarm would all be Invocations.
2. Low level boons/gifts/[whatever name I actually end up using] are static bonuses - whether to skills, (maybe) offenses, defenses, eldritch blast, etc. "Boons" may grant more role-playing benefits, a la the Witch's Hexes. On a case by case basis, there may be a few boons that grant more passive effects a limited number of times per day.
3. "Boons" will often come in chains that increase in power, often granting a limited number of times per day extra effect to a static bonus. These high level boons will tend to be abilities that would be too powerful for invocations (which are unlimited), and are balanced by the fact that you need
3. Blast shapes and blast essences are getting major revisions anyway, but at this point they're going to remain accessible through invocations - the difference is that they're going to all be available from level one and scale with level. I am no longer giving out a free blast shape and blast essence from level one - that was a relic from when I was trying to incorporate the DFA into the class. In light of your comments, I've realized that a warlock can gain access to lots of blast shapes and essences perhaps a little too quickly. For now, I've switched Extra Blast Shape and Extra Blast Essence to feats - a more significant investment than a "boon."

Overall, though, I see your point that invocations and "boons" are too similar - I would rather differentiate them than combine them.

In my mind the single defining aspect of warlock is an arcane rogue whose power is only limited by time, not daily rest.

Hrm. I'd always put the warlock as closer to a sorcerer - great cosmic power with very defined limits; a wizard for people who don't like all the book-keeping.


Limited daily uses runs directly counter to that core mechanic, and should only be reserved for special cases (unlimited heals are specifically avoided in orisions so they are only available to warlocks as an advanced gift, and by level 10 wands of CLW might as well be unlimited).

I can understand that, and I'd be willing to try other ways of limiting power - I also considered ability damage/drain/burn (in ascending order of danger). The reason is simple: It's good game design to give people choices, especially in intense situations. I think this is one of the reasons why League of Legends remains so popular - almost every single champion has an "ultimate" ability when (when used correctly) is potentially game-changing. And really, if we're talking about design goals, almost every class has been given limited use abilities in PF. Barbarian have limited use Rage Powers, Rogues have limited use Talents, Ninjas have Ki and limited-use Tricks, Gunslingers have Grit, Magi have an Arcane Pool, Oracles have Revelations, Monks have Ki, Bards have music uses, Sorcerers have limited-use-per-day bloodline abilities, Paladins have Smite, Lay on Hands, and Divine Bond...I would say one of the defining characteristics of PF design is limited-use abilities.

I understand the warlock was designed differently, and I want most of its abilities to remain unlimited, but I feel like everyone needs a few "HIS POWER HAS BEEN UNLEASHED (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrriBr-46_I&t=7m2s)" moments (Youtube link).


As for being selfish with powers, I think that is a decent starting point for most powers, but I would like to see a good amount of their powers have secondary party friendly applications (see the latter half of my gifts). In my mind powers that can applied to others are an ideal way to help party cohesiveness. Your power enables another player to shine, and helps keep the party from being divided by location or ability. (This is especially important for mobility and sneaking powers, where they literally prevent the party from being split.)

I can see the application for a sorcerer-like caster, but for an arcane rogue? How much of a rogue does is for the benefit of others (there's a reason why the archetypal rogue is chaotic neutral)? Fluff wise (here I go again), my feeling was that a person playing a warlock is special, different; something changed them into something that defies the traditional laws of magic and allows them unlimited access to a small array of powers. The cosmos have come down and told the warlock "You're a special guy."

On the other hand, in game design terms, I can understand giving the warlock a way to transfer powers to others/buff/heal/etc. It really would help with the "warlocks as demon guys" fluff problems. I do want to avoid too "nice" abilities; it's one of the reasons I liked a "regenerate limbs" "boon." Sure, it's ultimately a healing/defensive ability, but it's something we tend to associate more with starfish, hydras and abominations.


I actually advocate replacing all self-only spells with "PC-only" for normal casters, regardless of what system you are using.

One major problem: D&D/PF is a modular system. There is no base class that has a big label on it "this class is for players only." Furthermore, anything that is introduced - monsters, races, classes, feats, items, etc. - needs to be justified in some small way as being part of the world that the players live in an experience. "PC-only" is an OOC concept. What do NPC warlocks do in their spare time? What inherently makes a PC different from an NPC - everybody is distillable into a race, class, level, and other character options. There has been material published in 3.5 that was essentially labeled "DM only," (i.e. monster prestige classes) and it rankles me a little. Especially for a base class, I feel like it should be balanced for PC and DM use equally.

As I said before, I would be fine with brainstorming alternative means of limiting player bonuses; for example, maybe there could be some way for a warlock to transfer an invocation to someone for 24 hours. Something to think about.

For an alternative design philosophy, compare with 4.0; in 4.0, players and NPCs are inherently different in statistics and generation. I can understand the idea as I've played MMOs before (its essentially the same concept - players are comparatively squishy and do lots of damage, monsters are inherently tough and do comparatively little damage), but it's not my style.

Whew. That was a long post, but I think I've got everything in there XD I think this discussion is making this a stronger project, and I like it.

[sdream]

Part of my problem is that I'm trying to justify the fluff behind the warlock as opposed to several different classes:
[...]
Where does the warlock fit into this? The answer I came up with is that the warlock, for whatever reason, attracted the attention of a powerful spiritual force - often an outsider or fey - who marked them, often as a sign of punishment, ownership, or protection. The who, the why, and the how are nearly impossible to determine and usually burdensome to the warlock.


I may be an oddball, but I prefer to keep fluff as a range of suggestions rather than too fixed by class. Classes (and their archetype relatives) are grab bags of MECHANICS, and the same options could and should encapsulate many different characters and NPCs, each with whatever fluff works for the story. Unless there is a mechanic for "burdensome to the warlock" (and this mechanic is factored into the balance of the class) I would not encourage DMs to be burdensome to their players.

In particular, you seem to flirting with very similar fluff to witch and oracle, both of which are marked by outside powers, and whose abilities are not uniformly beneficial. I would encourage you to include multiple mutually exclusive fluffs, rather than a single one to make it clear fluff is suggestion, not rule, and be careful about the flavor of the words you select, things like stain and brand especially. I'll put some suggestions down a bit lower.



I was thinking about this earlier today, and I can see your point a bit more now. I'd like to propose the following concept for the warlock:

1. Invocations are spell like abilities usable an unlimited number of times a day, or extremely long duration buffs that mimic spells. Breath of the Night, Spider Walk, and Summon Swarm would all be Invocations.
2. Low level boons/gifts/[whatever name I actually end up using] are static bonuses - whether to skills, (maybe) offenses, defenses, eldritch blast, etc. "Boons" may grant more role-playing benefits, a la the Witch's Hexes. On a case by case basis, there may be a few boons that grant more passive effects a limited number of times per day.
3. "Boons" will often come in chains that increase in power, often granting a limited number of times per day extra effect to a static bonus. These high level boons will tend to be abilities that would be too powerful for invocations (which are unlimited), and are balanced by the fact that you need
3. Blast shapes and blast essences are getting major revisions anyway, but at this point they're going to remain accessible through invocations - the difference is that they're going to all be available from level one and scale with level. I am no longer giving out a free blast shape and blast essence from level one - that was a relic from when I was trying to incorporate the DFA into the class. In light of your comments, I've realized that a warlock can gain access to lots of blast shapes and essences perhaps a little too quickly. For now, I've switched Extra Blast Shape and Extra Blast Essence to feats - a more significant investment than a "boon."

Overall, though, I see your point that invocations and "boons" are too similar - I would rather differentiate them than combine them.


I have some thoughts about this:
- It would be nice to have them clearly different, where boons follow one mechanic (ideally passive+daily uses) and invocations another (ideally standard action unlimited spell-likes).
- If you DON'T let them choose a shape and essence at lvl 1, you are basically forced to provide a "default" shape and essence. Same difference, only giving the player less choice.
- Perhaps essences can be invocations, and shapes boons, (thus the active unlimited ability is modified by a passive ability with a daily limited special) warlocks can get one of each at lvl 1, and the "default" shape is just a touch spell like ability (if you have an essence invocation). Alternately, the shape could define the action needed, and the boon could allow essence modification
- Not making essences and shapes a separate pool gives them a hefty opportunity cost as they compete with real invocations and boons.



In my mind the single defining aspect of warlock is an arcane rogue whose power is only limited by time, not daily rest.

Hrm. I'd always put the warlock as closer to a sorcerer - great cosmic power with very defined limits; a wizard for people who don't like all the book-keeping.

The sorcerer is definitely the wizard for people who don't like preparing spells.

Warlock goes well beyond sorcerer in terms of fewer powers available, but more consistant use of those powers. Several times further from wizard than a sorcerer is, getting close to classes like rogue and monk who have a bare handful of abilities and the ability to use them all day.



[Compelling details...]
I would say one of the defining characteristics of PF design is limited-use abilities.

I understand the warlock was designed differently, and I want most of its abilities to remain unlimited, but I feel like everyone needs a few "HIS POWER HAS BEEN UNLEASHED (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrriBr-46_I&t=7m2s)" moments (Youtube link).


I personally prefer unlimited mechanics, (hence my love of warlocks who in 3.5 had only the regen limited/day) but your argument has convinced me that trying to make this absolute is an albatross to the design. Many mechanics are balanced better (or accepted better) with more traditional limits. For example, channeling exactly as a cleric, stacking with any other classes channel feature is a simpler boon/whatever.



I can see the application for a sorcerer-like caster, but for an arcane rogue? How much of a rogue does is for the benefit of others (there's a reason why the archetypal rogue is chaotic neutral)?
[...]
On the other hand, in game design terms, I can understand giving the warlock a way to transfer powers to others/buff/heal/etc. It really would help with the "warlocks as demon guys" fluff problems. I do want to avoid too "nice" abilities; it's one of the reasons I liked a "regenerate limbs" "boon." Sure, it's ultimately a healing/defensive ability, but it's something we tend to associate more with starfish, hydras and abominations.

Warlock is somewhere between rogue and sorcerer, but even a "selfish" rogue uses skills to serve the party. In fact the usefulness of those skills is a cautionary tale. A rogue checking for traps, sneaking around or diplomancing makes the rest of the party wait twiddling their thumbs. Selfish mechanics are OK in small amounts, but are not constructive for good party time flow, and should be no-one's main focus.

[In response to the mostly unrelated "PC-only" sidebar...]



One major problem: D&D/PF is a modular system. There is no base class that has a big label on it "this class is for players only." Furthermore, anything that is introduced - monsters, races, classes, feats, items, etc. - needs to be justified in some small way as being part of the world that the players live in an experience. "PC-only" is an OOC concept. What do NPC warlocks do in their spare time? What inherently makes a PC different from an NPC - everybody is distillable into a race, class, level, and other character options. There has been material published in 3.5 that was essentially labeled "DM only," (i.e. monster prestige classes) and it rankles me a little. Especially for a base class, I feel like it should be balanced for PC and DM use equally.

My sidebar comment about PC-Only, is a PC-only rule to encourage caster PCs (with their ridiculous variety and potency of class features) to share more of the spotlight with mundane warrior/rogue/monk PCs. DMs can still use those spells for NPCs just fine, but the mage/CODzilla can't buff themselves or a summon to be a better fighter than the fighter... because the fighter+their buffs is a better fighter than caster+buffs, and summons can't get the buffs (except via share spell restrictions). The scope of this idea is pretty unrelated to PF warlock design except to demonstrate that I think PCs working together should be encouraged.




Whew. That was a long post, but I think I've got everything in there XD I think this discussion is making this a stronger project, and I like it.
I'm somewhat of a contrarian sometimes, but I try to be constructive with it (and I have a strong interest in a rock solid and balanced PF warlock).


EDIT - further notes:

- Where are you posting your revisions so I can see how things are evolving?

- I'd like to keep the name invocations and reference that the warlock has the ability to invoke his internal powers in a way quite like a spell.

- Alternate names for boons/gifts: mights, ways, wierds, powers, knacks, masteries

- I'd like to explicit default or boon rules for the use (and recharging) of scrolls, wands, rods, and staves. (a line could be made with the deceive item boon).

- For helpful invocations/boons, I was thinking about 1/2 of invocations/boons would have one sharable aspect amongst the selfish aspect or twos, mostly the active stuff of course. I'll provide some examples in a bit.

[Novawurmson]

I may be an oddball, but I prefer to keep fluff as a range of suggestions rather than too fixed by class. Classes (and their archetype relatives) are grab bags of MECHANICS, and the same options could and should encapsulate many different characters and NPCs, each with whatever fluff works for the story.

100% agree with the mechanics part, I just feel like there should be some suggested fluff. I like the idea of putting a few suggested fluff ideas - maybe one person who receives power at birth, no explanation, one person who received power one day while praying at his family shrine, and one person who receive powers while walking through an area where the forces of nature are...unusual. Or something.



I have some thoughts about this:
- It would be nice to have them clearly different, where boons follow one mechanic (ideally passive+daily uses) and invocations another (ideally standard action unlimited spell-likes).

I agree 100%.


- If you DON'T let them choose a shape and essence at lvl 1, you are basically forced to provide a "default" shape and essence. Same difference, only giving the player less choice.

The "default" shape and essence is 60ft ray, typeless magic damage. Not my favorite solution, but it seemed like the easiest way to balance the blast shapes and essences. However, if your character NEEDS to breathe fire for your character concept to work, you pick up the fire essence and Eldritch Cone with your invocation and a feat.


Perhaps essences can be invocations, and shapes boons, (thus the active unlimited ability is modified by a passive ability with a daily limited special) warlocks can get one of each at lvl 1, and the "default" shape is just a touch spell like ability (if you have an essence invocation). Alternately, the shape could define the action needed, and the boon could allow essence modification

I can see this working. I need to let this sit a little.


Not making essences and shapes a separate pool gives them a hefty opportunity cost as they compete with real invocations and boons.

That's intentional. The idea is that you need to spend resources to focus on eldritch blast.


I personally prefer unlimited mechanics, (hence my love of warlocks who in 3.5 had only the regen limited/day) but your argument has convinced me that trying to make this absolute is an albatross to the design. Many mechanics are balanced better (or accepted better) with more traditional limits. For example, channeling exactly as a cleric, stacking with any other classes channel feature is a simpler boon/whatever.

Glad to hear it :D I want to keep invocations, eldritch blast and passive boons as the "unlimited" portion of the warlock, while still giving them time to shine a few times in the adventuring day.

For healing, what I'd really like to do is give the warlock a boon that lets him turn his eldritch blast into a healing blast a certain number of times per day - basically the same as a channel energy, but with different shapes applicable.


The sorcerer is definitely the wizard for people who don't like preparing spells.

Warlock goes well beyond sorcerer in terms of fewer powers available, but more consistant use of those powers. Several times further from wizard than a sorcerer is, getting close to classes like rogue and monk who have a bare handful of abilities and the ability to use them all day.

Warlock is somewhere between rogue and sorcerer, but even a "selfish" rogue uses skills to serve the party. In fact the usefulness of those skills is a cautionary tale. A rogue checking for traps, sneaking around or diplomancing makes the rest of the party wait twiddling their thumbs. Selfish mechanics are OK in small amounts, but are not constructive for good party time flow, and should be no-one's main focus.

Hrm. On the mechanical side of things, I can see giving the warlock some more buff-type abilities, but I'm mostly fine with giving them a good array of debuffing abilities - they're still helping the party, just in their own slightly-darker way.


PC-only sidebar

For the most part, I feel one of the things PF nuked was the "caster becomes better fighter than fighter." The Divine Power nerf hit Clerics pretty hard (along with the lack of persist spell/DMM) and the way shapechanging is now handed ruined most Wizard-y builds of "So I polymorph into an X..." I agree with the "with great tier discrepancies comes great responsibility" ethic.


I'm somewhat of a contrarian sometimes, but I try to be constructive with it (and I have a strong interest in a rock solid and balanced PF warlock).

I want to take a moment and say that I appreciate your input immensely and feel that your criticism is helpful and constructive.


- Where are you posting your revisions so I can see how things are evolving?

I try to keep the latest version here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/16_upSthiyzr6rVChMYYCZEBTe-0bJ0UodpwfqMR7l4A/edit), though the "changes" section is far from complete, and I haven't really incorporated anything we've discussed today. I also have some other documents that are cluttered thoughts/considerations/reminders, but I try to keep that one in alpha-playtestable format. Once I have a good write up of invocations, "boons," essences, and blast shapes, I'll also start a thread in homebrew.


- I'd like to keep the name invocations and reference that the warlock has the ability to invoke his internal powers in a way quite like a spell.

No argument whatsoever.


- Alternate names for boons/gifts: mights, ways, wierds, powers, knacks, masteries

Hrm. I think we can keep digging. I think I'm mostly leaning to more passive language (I like "Sign" and "Omen" most right now), and you're leaning towards active language. Still not settled on anything yet. I like "Weird" except for the fact that it has another meaning to most English speakers.


- I'd like to explicit default or boon rules for the use (and recharging) of scrolls, wands, rods, and staves. (a line could be made with the deceive item boon).

Deceive Item and Imbue Item are currently both baseline for the class. Recharging is another issue; I can see it working as long as the warlock has to pay gold to accomplish it.


For helpful invocations/boons, I was thinking about 1/2 of invocations/boons would have one sharable aspect amongst the selfish aspect or twos, mostly the active stuff of course. I'll provide some examples in a bit.

I can get behind it. Looking forward to it.

[sdream]

100% agree with the mechanics part, I just feel like there should be some suggested fluff. I like the idea of putting a few suggested fluff ideas - maybe one person who receives power at birth, no explanation, one person who received power one day while praying at his family shrine, and one person who receive powers while walking through an area where the forces of nature are...unusual. Or something.

I was thinking more along the lines of:

Some warlocks get their powers through personal or ancestral pacts with powerful immortal beings. Others are scion or host to unique entities or unusual rifts in the universe. There are even warlocks who tapped into an unending dynamo of power through some arcane or theological project or event. What all warlocks share, however, is a wellspring of power limited primarily by their ability to safely channel it's mighty force.




The "default" shape and essence is 60ft ray, typeless magic damage. Not my favorite solution, but it seemed like the easiest way to balance the blast shapes and essences. However, if your character NEEDS to breathe fire for your character concept to work, you pick up the fire essence and Eldritch Cone with your invocation and a feat.

I was thinking start them even more basic, with no blast at all unless they pick an essence invocation/boon, and only usable as a touch (no AoO) unless they pick up a shape boon/invocation. In this way, each warlock starts unique, rather than all warlocks having a built in ranged blast.



For healing, what I'd really like to do is give the warlock a boon that lets him turn his eldritch blast into a healing blast a certain number of times per day - basically the same as a channel energy, but with different shapes applicable.

Remember that as an add-on warlocks won't have support from all the resources base classes do unless you give them options to tie back into some shared resources. This is why I'm a fan of tying it literally to the channel feature, to provide more tie in to the base rules.



Deceive Item and Imbue Item are currently both baseline for the class. Recharging is another issue; I can see it working as long as the warlock has to pay gold to accomplish it.

I would think if wizards can recharge staves so should warlocks be able to. Limited uses per day is fine. It might be cool to give them a pool they could use to recharge staves, wands, or add extra charges to rods. (Remember, looking to tie into existing pathfinder features so the class is not an island).

[QuidEst]

Whew! I'm afraid I don't have enough time to read through all the discussion, but this seems really cool!

Thoughts…

Elemental Damage: Get rid of sonic… it's got so little that resists it compared to other types, and it's really difficult to get a hold of anything that deals it.
Fire is the most commonly resisted thing, and the easiest to get a hold of- it should probably get the best boon. Save vs. dazed scaling to save vs. blind?
Cold is the next in line, I think… the Elemental Touch spell gives it a save vs. fatigue (non-stacking).
Electricity is third. Elemental Touch is save vs. staggered for a round, which seems about right.
Acid is, by resistance type, the best solution, so giving it Elemental Touch's minor DoT seems reasonable. It forces low-DC concentration checks on enemy casters, but it won't get past any resistances.

Later-level boons- you can either have a boon that lets you pick a second type, allowing you to switch elemental types, or a boon that turns half the damage into untyped (no SR) to get past resistances.

Physical: The bonus to attacks and save DCs seems reasonable. Can it scale to include the cold iron/silver, Warlock's alignment (with something for neutral), and eventually adamantine? Or have boons available?

Esoteric: Sorry, nothing here…

Blast Shapes:
The Eldritch Chain is a bit confusing- can it use a single distance between targets rather than having a bunch of different numbers?

Eldritch Line refers to any creatures caught in the "cone". The range on these seems way off, though- at least in the Dragon's Breath spell, a 30 ft. cone is considered equivalent to a 60 ft. line, which is what you start with.

Eldritch Burst seems… problematic. But the Cleric's channel energy is a wider field and has a feat for selective exclusion, and I have yet to see anybody complaining that burst negative energy is overpowered. Eldritch Burst Warlocks will just find themselves standing alone for their first fifteen levels unless they grab another shape.