D&D Monsters and Gods that Need More Love

[afroakuma]

As the title says: what are your picks for interesting, neglected or even downright lame or silly D&D monsters that could use some more attention and maybe a facelift? Alongside them, what obscure or underused deities deserve more prominence?

I'm kicking things off with Maglubiyet, who despite being more powerful than Lolth never seems to get any real attention.

[HunterOfJello]

Monsters without pictures are often left out of the game. This includes Derro



I've never seen an Athach in a game, module, or book. Probably because they're just weird. Guardinals are also strange and kinda lame so they don't appear much.

I avoid introducing Satyrs and haven't seen them in any games. I avoid them because I refuse to compromise mythological integrity and introduce them without permanently erect phalluses.

Also Thoqqua and Tojanida because WTF?!

Locathah need to appear more often because everyone hates Murlocks. That makes them great mooks. BTW, once the PCs get into the Locathah head base after calling them Murlocks all session, the DM should always introduce a Locathah with 10 levels in Warlock. (Sahuagin work too.)

[afroakuma]

I've never seen an Athach in a game, module, or book.

Never understood why they're aberrations.


Also Thoqqua and Tojanida because WTF?!

I have used a thoqqua for a surprisingly memorable low-level battle. The players still gush about it.


Locathah need to appear more often because everyone hates Murlocks.

...Murlocks?

Typically people associate Grimlocks with the "murlock" concept. Why locathah?

[Invader]

Never understood why they're aberrations.



I have used a thoqqua for a surprisingly memorable low-level battle. The players still gush about it.



...Murlocks?

Typically people associate Grimlocks with the "murlock" concept. Why locathah?

The classic World of Warcraft "murloc"

http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii636/invaderk2/murloc.jpg

[afroakuma]

Ah. I was thinking of morlocks. :smalltongue:

Anyway, back on topic, anyone have any other monsters/gods deserving of attention/image rehabilitation?

[Novawurmson]

I love the Fihyr. Weird monsters that make you scared. Hooray!

[Mithril Leaf]

A lot of the lesser racial gods. Did you know the kobolds have a lesser diety of theft? I've already forgotten his name.

[Deophaun]

A lot of the lesser racial gods. Did you know the kobolds have a lesser diety of theft? I've already forgotten his name.
Hey, if nobody knows you exist, then nobody will suspect you. Perfect cover for a thief.

[afroakuma]

A lot of the lesser racial gods. Did you know the kobolds have a lesser diety of theft? I've already forgotten his name.

Dakarnok, the god of raiding? Or did you mean Kuraulyek, the deity of the urds who was formerly Kurtulmak's servant?

I've been looking into the lesser gods; I think Cegilune would be an interesting one to explore. Another one that I've been evaluating is Urdlen, the evil god in the gnomish pantheon.

[Togath]

The classic World of Warcraft "murloc"

http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii636/invaderk2/murloc.jpg

Why does that one have fins?:smallconfused:

Also, one unusual creature i personally enjoy is the flail snail, as it seems like an interesting monster, and I cant think of many, or any other creatures with a snail theme

[Mithril Leaf]

Dakarnok, the god of raiding? Or did you mean Kuraulyek, the deity of the urds who was formerly Kurtulmak's servant?

I've been looking into the lesser gods; I think Cegilune would be an interesting one to explore. Another one that I've been evaluating is Urdlen, the evil god in the gnomish pantheon.

I was referring to Gaknulak actually. It's freaky how much material there is around that's simply unused. Additionally, has anyone every actually used the rainbow anthro wolf with wings that's always tossed around in discussion on absurd monsters?

[afroakuma]

I was referring to Gaknulak actually.

I thought he was more defense-oriented.


It's freaky how much material there is around that's simply unused.

Yeah, I've been investigating a lot of it. Some of what I've turned up is really quite good, and will certainly go into another thread.


Additionally, has anyone every actually used the rainbow anthro wolf with wings that's always tossed around in discussion on absurd monsters?

The... senmurv? Silly misspelling of simurgh. I'd probably use one if I found a spot for it, though. Tricky thing about them is: low level, good-aligned. Not often that combination gets trotted out.

[Menteith]

Murderjacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040828a) are interesting (10th level bard casting, 7d6 Sneak Attack, great mobility) full of flavor (come on, combine this with the Wendigo template and it's basically Slenderman statted up), and are very rarely used.

[The Redwolf]

Flumphs because they're awesome, owlbears because I think they're awesome and I love them even though everyone else in my group seems to think they're stupid and treat them like crap. Owlbears are just genius. Granted their picture is a little weird in 3.5, but the Pathfinder picture makes them look beastly (no pun intended) and that's how I view them.

[Kol Korran]

I've actually started a similar thread for monster a while ago- Monster Compendium for the maligned, forgotten & misunderstood monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81051&highlight=monster+compendium+maligned) along with some "makeovers", the monsters included are listed in my sig. I might take some ideas from this thread and work on them, if i have the time and inspiration. If any other wishes to do so, be my guest as well.

[Manly Man]

For the monsters, I really like phoelarches. You hardly see them anywhere, and my little brother actually made a character out of one that became a demigod of the sun. Also, yugoloths. Material needs to be made to emphasize just how many different ways there are in which these guys are the biggest bastards of the multiverse.

As for deities, I've really liked Evening Glory. A goddess that represents those so dedicated to love that they go beyond death is pretty romantic. Also, for some reason, I can imagine her and Wee Jas having a secret affair. Kinda hot, albeit weird, if you ask me.

[Andvare]

Flumphs because they're awesome, owlbears because I think they're awesome and I love them even though everyone else in my group seems to think they're stupid and treat them like crap. Owlbears are just genius. Granted their picture is a little weird in 3.5, but the Pathfinder picture makes them look beastly (no pun intended) and that's how I view them.

They have come to warn you against Cthulhu! (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/flumph)

Misfit monsters indeed.

Edit: BTW, for those not following Pathfinder, Paizos "Misfit Monsters Redeemed" (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8gnj?Pathfinder-Campaign-Setting-Misfit-Monsters-Redeemed) takes a look at the most silly/stupid monsters, and try to make them work.

[GreenSerpent]

Vitreous Drinkers. I mean... they drain your eyesight. And they're smart enough to run a spy ring. And they have a force of flying spectral ravens
http://bogleech.com/dnd/vitreousdrinker.jpg

[Manly Man]

That distinctly reminds me of Ningauble of The Seven Eyes.

[Doorhandle]

Flumphs because they're awesome, owlbears because I think they're awesome and I love them even though everyone else in my group seems to think they're stupid and treat them like crap. Owlbears are just genius. Granted their picture is a little weird in 3.5, but the Pathfinder picture makes them look beastly (no pun intended) and that's how I view them.


Why are owbears such genius?

I mean, sure, they look awesome in warcraft 3, but I can't get over the fact that someone bothered to make an owl bear AND didn't give it the wings and flight of an owl. Wasted opportunities, Gigax!

The flumps are pretty cool, but I don't like the pathfinder drawing as it gives them a mouth which looks godamn silly on them.

[willpell]

I pity any monster which was written with an absurdly narrow narrative role, so that they don't seem like individuals capable of making choices. The cloaker is one example, although they've been given the "redeeming" treatment like Flumphs for so long that they've almost entirely stopped being lame. Still, it's hard to get past the fact that their entire original purpose was to look like a magic item and trick you into putting them on.

[Xefas]

Did you know that Hextor and Heironeous have a third brother? His name is Stratis, and he's a four-armed amoral god of war, neither Good nor Evil. He died at some point, but it is said that he used his dying breath to instill his panoply with godly essence, and the one who brings together his suit of armor, mace, spear, glaive, and shield, will become the new god of war.

They also have a divine mother, Alia. I'm not sure who the father(s) in the family tree are, but there you go. Stratis has a campaign baked right into him.

[Eldan]

There's a monster in the core monster manual that looks like a sort of white, eastern dragon with one arm. It comes from the positive energy plane and it's ability is that it is so full of life, objects near it spontaneously become animated. It was in one of the Planescape manuals as well, though I forgot the name.

The idea, I thought, was pretty interesting, though I never heard of anyone using it.

[willpell]

There's a monster in the core monster manual that looks like a sort of white, eastern dragon with one arm. It comes from the positive energy plane and it's ability is that it is so full of life, objects near it spontaneously become animated. It was in one of the Planescape manuals as well, though I forgot the name.

The idea, I thought, was pretty interesting, though I never heard of anyone using it.

That's the Ravid, and I like it too. I have plans to use it someday, but it comes with animated objects so it'll be a fairly complicated fight, I won't likely get to it soon.

[afroakuma]

I like the Positive Material Plane creatures, even though the plane itself can be hard to use. However, when you factor in that the Elder Evil Ragnorra is also a creature of the Positive, new opportunities begin to present themselves.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I have used a thoqqua for a surprisingly memorable low-level battle. The players still gush about it.

Ah, I remember that battle. Very nearly died. I think that you started going easier on us after that battle, because of how epic it turned out to be :smalltongue:


I've actually started a similar thread for monster a while ago- Monster Compendium for the maligned, forgotten & misunderstood monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81051&highlight=monster+compendium+maligned) along with some "makeovers", the monsters included are listed in my sig. I might take some ideas from this thread and work on them, if i have the time and inspiration. If any other wishes to do so, be my guest as well.

Funnily enough, I was about to mention stirges and link to your thread, because I quite enjoy how you talked about them. I haven't looked at the others yet, but you've inspired me with your coverage of the stirges.

Anyway, I find swarms in general to be sadly under-represented. I've used them to great effect before (that distraction ability can get surprisingly nasty), but nobody else seems to. It's a bit of a shame since, done right, they can be pretty terrifying. Just play up the idea that the rat's aren't just swarming at the player's feet, they're crawling over them, all over them; their legs, their arms, their face. Fun!

[The Redwolf]

Why are owbears such genius?

I mean, sure, they look awesome in warcraft 3, but I can't get over the fact that someone bothered to make an owl bear AND didn't give it the wings and flight of an owl. Wasted opportunities, Gigax!

The flumps are pretty cool, but I don't like the pathfinder drawing as it gives them a mouth which looks godamn silly on them.

The Pathfinder ones' arms are also basically wings, they still can't use them to fly, but it looks awesome. I just think they're genius because they're such an off-the-wall idea that makes no sense when you hear it, but I personally think that the execution of them is great and that it works. They're honestly my favorite monster, I'm really not sure why, but I just love them.

[Codemus]

My favorite underused monster? Odopi!

A big ball of bright red demonic arms, each with a yellow eye in the palm. And for added bonus, there is an elder version that I think is Gigantic size. I don't think it was actualy a demon, just some extraplanar oddity.

I'd link a picture, but google images turns up a ton.

[afroakuma]

I know the one you're talking about - it's from Carceri. Sadly underused plane, that one.

[Telonius]

God that really deserves a lot more support? The Xammux, from BoVD. I absolutely love the concept, especially in a Plane-hopping setting. Perfect deity for an evil cult, a nasty vivisectionist, or any number of mystery plot hooks.

[Lord_Gareth]

The Vivisector (MMV) and Dalmosh of the Infinite Maws (MMV) could both use some much-deserved love; they're much more awesome than their popularity would indicate.

As far as deities that could either use re-examining or a facelift, might I suggest Doresain (god of ghouls and cannibals), Evening Glory (Goddess of love and beauty preserved by undeath), The Red Knight (LN Goddess of Tactics and Strategy, Forgotten Realms), Iuz the Old One (Needs no introduction, desperately needs a better class of evil scheme), the Elven God of Vengeance and Hating Drow (I forget his name), Nerull (hardly sees any kind of competent use, can be surprisingly helpful to heroes) and Blipdoolpoop (needs no introduction).

[Cieyrin]

Did you know that Hextor and Heironeous have a third brother? His name is Stratis, and he's a four-armed amoral god of war, neither Good nor Evil. He died at some point, but it is said that he used his dying breath to instill his panoply with godly essence, and the one who brings together his suit of armor, mace, spear, glaive, and shield, will become the new god of war.

They also have a divine mother, Alia. I'm not sure who the father(s) in the family tree are, but there you go. Stratis has a campaign baked right into him.

There is a campaign, it was called Chainmail, the revival of the original before it died b/c WotC didn't understand how pewter minis work, so they switched into D&D Minis.

In any case, I have this war priest build built around drawing power from Stratis' remains (thanks to Lost Empires of Faerun's Servant of the Fallen feat for making it legit) whose goal is to claim the panoply and become the new god of war in Stratis' image. Insert bits of Ghost of Sparta for flavor as needed. :smalltongue:


I have used a thoqqua for a surprisingly memorable low-level battle. The players still gush about it.

I had a Spirit Shaman that focused on summoning elementals, with Thoqquas being one of his favorites. Unfortunately, that game sputtered out shortly after beginning. Pity, that. :smallannoyed:


Anyway, I find swarms in general to be sadly under-represented. I've used them to great effect before (that distraction ability can get surprisingly nasty), but nobody else seems to. It's a bit of a shame since, done right, they can be pretty terrifying. Just play up the idea that the rat's aren't just swarming at the player's feet, they're crawling over them, all over them; their legs, their arms, their face. Fun!

One of the writers for Pathfinder Society has a hard-on for throwing in swarms into modules, especially at low levels. Keeps people on their toes.


As far as deities that could either use re-examining or a facelift, might I suggest Doresain (god of ghouls and cannibals), Evening Glory (Goddess of love and beauty preserved by undeath), The Red Knight (LN Goddess of Tactics and Strategy, Forgotten Realms), Iuz the Old One (Needs no introduction, desperately needs a better class of evil scheme), the Elven God of Vengeance and Hating Drow (I forget his name), Nerull (hardly sees any kind of competent use, can be surprisingly helpful to heroes) and Blipdoolpoop (needs no introduction).

Iuz got a lot of attention in Living Greyhawk, at least that's the impression I got while playing in one of the Iuz Border nations (The Vesve, if you're curious).

As for actual contributions, I don't think Bradobaris, Halfing God of Adventuring gets as much attention as he should. Dallah Than is kinda the same but she's the aspect of Yondolla that no halfling is supposed to talk about to outsiders, so it kinda works. There's also very little in the way of love for Raggamuffins. Animated clothes that want to strangle you to death or occasionally form a symbiotic relationship? Why not? :smallbiggrin:

[Novawurmson]

Murderjacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040828a) are interesting (10th level bard casting, 7d6 Sneak Attack, great mobility) full of flavor (come on, combine this with the Wendigo template and it's basically Slenderman statted up), and are very rarely used.

Stolen. Thank you.

[Menteith]

Stolen. Thank you.

Glad to help. Just be careful with Murderjacks; they can easily become a TPK against some groups. Failing a Will save against their Frightening Presence immediately causes the Panicked condition, and a successful save doesn't actually make you immune to it (which means a DC23 AoE save or lose on every single attack or charge that it makes). Combine that with the ability to move 50ft as a free action, 7d6 Sneak Attack, 10th level Bard casting (which means Greater Invisibility), DR10/Cold Iron + Spell Resistance 21, and it's a brutal CR9 creature. It can get significantly more deadly if you change around feats a bit (they qualify for every Ambush Feat & Staggering Strike, but even just stuff like Ability Focus [Frightening Presence] goes a long way).

[afroakuma]

the Elven God of Vengeance and Hating Drow (I forget his name

Shevarash.

The Seldarine is huuuuge, owing to its chaotic nature.

[gkathellar]

Naztharune Rakshasa. Everything should be Naztharune Rakshasa. EVERYTHING.

[Mithril Leaf]

The Vivisector (MMV) and Dalmosh of the Infinite Maws (MMV) could both use some much-deserved love; they're much more awesome than their popularity would indicate.

As far as deities that could either use re-examining or a facelift, might I suggest Doresain (god of ghouls and cannibals), Evening Glory (Goddess of love and beauty preserved by undeath), The Red Knight (LN Goddess of Tactics and Strategy, Forgotten Realms), Iuz the Old One (Needs no introduction, desperately needs a better class of evil scheme), the Elven God of Vengeance and Hating Drow (I forget his name), Nerull (hardly sees any kind of competent use, can be surprisingly helpful to heroes) and Blipdoolpoop (needs no introduction).

The first google entry for Blipdoolpoop is a question of how much xp killing her would grant. She's some kind of water goddess?

[afroakuma]

The first google entry for Blipdoolpoop is a question of how much xp killing her would grant. She's some kind of water goddess?

She's the goddess of the kuo-toa.

Also, Blibdoolpoolp. As if that makes it sound less stupid.

[Mithril Leaf]

She's the goddess of the kuo-toa.

Also, Blibdoolpoolp. As if that makes it sound less stupid.

So she's the goddess of a bunch of ugly fish people that live in horrible underground lakes. And her name is Blibdoolpoolp. Her description is:

Blibdoolpoolp usually takes the form of a 20ft (6.1m) tall nude human female, with a lobster's head and claws in place of humanoid parts. At close range, her gaze causes insanity. Blibdoolpoolp's realm is a small moonlike temple drifting in The Fated Depths.[1]
She's a 20 foot tall lady with a lobster head and claws. She may possibly be the most pathetic god I've ever heard of.

[LeshLush]

I know the one you're talking about - it's from Carceri. Sadly underused plane, that one.
In the campaign I'm currently running, I ran three sessions focused on the PCs trying to break out of Carceri. Some of the craziest fun we've had.

[afroakuma]

So she's the goddess of a bunch of ugly fish people that live in horrible underground lakes. And her name is Blibdoolpoolp.

Quite accurate, although before you dismiss them I'd recommend looking up the mega-adventure in Dungeon Magazine that sees you plunge into a kuo-toa city to combat the Scarlet Rust fungus. The kuo-toa are rather organized and rank-y compared to most other scribbly gribbly Angry Race Of The Day types.


She's a 20 foot tall lady with a lobster head and claws. She may possibly be the most pathetic god I've ever heard of.

What, not the giant white mole? :smalltongue: Granted, you did say heard of, so...

At any rate, imagine how repulsive and terrible she must appear to those who worship her. :smallwink:

[Mithril Leaf]

Quite accurate, although before you dismiss them I'd recommend looking up the mega-adventure in Dungeon Magazine that sees you plunge into a kuo-toa city to combat the Scarlet Rust fungus. The kuo-toa are rather organized and rank-y compared to most other scribbly gribbly Angry Race Of The Day types.



What, not the giant white mole? :smalltongue: Granted, you did say heard of, so...

At any rate, imagine how repulsive and terrible she must appear to those who worship her. :smallwink:

You can't promise me a giant white mole god and not deliver.

[afroakuma]

You can't promise me a giant white mole god and not deliver.

Check out Urdlen, the evil gnome god of greed and blood.

[The Dark Fiddler]

So she's the goddess of a bunch of ugly fish people that live in horrible underground lakes. And her name is Blibdoolpoolp. Her description is:

She's a 20 foot tall lady with a lobster head and claws. She may possibly be the most pathetic god I've ever heard of.

If we're talking about aquatic gods, you can't neglect Tem-Et Nu. Granted, Tem-Et Nu is frequently mentioned due to that one somewhat infamous feat, but yeah. I'm not even sure of Tem-Et Nu's gender, honestly (then again, I don't have Sandstorm).

[afroakuma]

If we're talking about aquatic gods, you can't neglect Tem-Et Nu. Granted, Tem-Et Nu is frequently mentioned due to that one somewhat infamous feat, but yeah. I'm not even sure of Tem-Et Nu's gender, honestly (then again, I don't have Sandstorm).

Tem-Et-Nu is a goddess.

[Crasical]

So she's the goddess of a bunch of ugly fish people that live in horrible underground lakes. And her name is Blibdoolpoolp. Her description is:

She's a 20 foot tall lady with a lobster head and claws. She may possibly be the most pathetic god I've ever heard of.

Describing this to my friend, he misunderstood me and thought that it was a 20 foot tall humanoid female formed entirely from claws and lobster heads. I'm not sure if this is an improvement.

[willpell]

There's also very little in the way of love for Raggamuffins. Animated clothes that want to strangle you to death or occasionally form a symbiotic relationship? Why not? :smallbiggrin:

Jared Von Hindman pegged those as the #1 Stupidest Monster of All Time, and for the most part I agree with him. The only thing I could think of which might make them less lame and more HORRIFYING was a scenario which, just in case I ever wanted to use it, got me to finally decide once and for all that bacteria DO exist in my D&D game. I think it's perfectly reasonable to rule to the contrary and was strongly considering doing it before I thought of this possible plot. Now the only question is whether I'll ever have a strong enough stomach to use it.


So she's the goddess of a bunch of ugly fish people that live in horrible underground lakes. And her name is Blibdoolpoolp.

I agree that she's pretty pathetic, and my game doesn't use her (the Kuo-Toa are pretty much exactly Deep Ones straight out of Lovecraft, so I just cut out the middle(lobsterwo)man and made them worship Dagon). But for the record, the name gets a bit less stupid if you realize that it's suppoed to be Blibd-oolp-oolp...fishy bubbling noises. There's no possible excuse for the whole "lobster with breasts" thing, though.


Granted, Tem-Et Nu is frequently mentioned due to that one somewhat infamous feat

*raises hand* New guy here. What feat we talkin' bout?

[hamishspence]

A feat (Blessed of Tem-Et-Nu) that allows you to rebuke or command ... hippos, because they're her sacred animal.

[willpell]

In reference to Evening Glory, I like her too and consider her iconic, but she's a good example of the problem I was talking about where they wrote her for one scenario and she's very heavily married to that one bit. In her case, the plot can be summarized as "OMG guys, a cult is raising undead! But wait--they're not Evil! But wait--they're up to something sininster anyway!" Basically something dreamed up to confuse a Paladin or the like. You have to do a fair bit of work to get anything more than that out of it.


A feat (Blessed of Tem-Et-Nu) that allows you to rebuke or command ... hippos, because they're her sacred animal.

O_o Does that mean that her enemy cult would have the power to turn or destroy hippos?

[hamishspence]

There isn't an exact enemy cult for her as far as I know.

[Mithril Leaf]

Check out Urdlen, the evil gnome god of greed and blood.

At least he has a somewhat badass portfolio. And he gets a sacrifice of gems and blood. It helps his case if you picture him more along the lines of those giant earthbender badgers from TLA I suppose. He mostly sounds like Armok's little brother. Overall, I'd say lobster lady is worse.

[The Dark Fiddler]

A feat (Blessed of Tem-Et-Nu) that allows you to rebuke or command ... hippos, because they're her sacred animal.

You forgot the part where you take damage as if bitten by a hippo if you fall from her grace.

I think it's telling that Scion of Tem-Et Nu, the PrC dedicated to her followers, doesn't require that feat.

[Milo v3]

I've never seen an Athach in a game, module, or book. Probably because they're just weird.
In my campaign the Athach are the servants of the Dwarves, effectively forming the roles of tanks and heavy machinery. In addition many dwarves wield weapons imbued with Athach souls.

Also I kind of describe them like colossal Vortigaunts with a fanged mouth dripping with toxic poison.

[The Redwolf]

At least he has a somewhat badass portfolio. And he gets a sacrifice of gems and blood. It helps his case if you picture him more along the lines of those giant earthbender badgers from TLA I suppose.

Badgermoles! I love badgermoles!

(Sorry for the random exclamation)

[Cieyrin]

Jared Von Hindman pegged those as the #1 Stupidest Monster of All Time, and for the most part I agree with him. The only thing I could think of which might make them less lame and more HORRIFYING was a scenario which, just in case I ever wanted to use it, got me to finally decide once and for all that bacteria DO exist in my D&D game. I think it's perfectly reasonable to rule to the contrary and was strongly considering doing it before I thought of this possible plot. Now the only question is whether I'll ever have a strong enough stomach to use it.

Just because one guy on the internet included them in a countdown of dumb monsters doesn't mean they can't be used in awesome ways, which is more than I can say for the animated pillow that wanted to smother you that was also in the list. At least the symbiotic Raggamuffins can be used in cult type plots in tandem with other things (Illithids? :smallwink:) to have the whole Lovecraftian thing go for them. The pillow is just a trap that got a stat block for whatever reason.

Of course, I was always a fan of ye old evil koalas as well and the symbiotic turban that made you smarter in return for the general symbiotic pact. And another thing, for a completely different peg, we need more love for Zaratans, because c'mon, mobile island? Not something you'd normally fight, I'd grant, but still, get a group of them together and you could have a moving archipelago. :smallcool:

[willpell]

I do like the zataran, just because it is a giant turtle. There need to be more turtles....just in general, really.

[Eldan]

I do love living islands. I distinctly remember one having a place in a story I loved as a kid, though I can't remotely recall what kind of story that was.

[Yora]

Check out Urdlen, the evil gnome god of greed and blood.
I like to think of him as an apsect of Malar. He doesn't really stand for any part of gnome life, but for everything gnomes fear.

[Cieyrin]

I do love living islands. I distinctly remember one having a place in a story I loved as a kid, though I can't remotely recall what kind of story that was.

One Thousand and One Nights sounds like a good place for such to come forth from.

[Yora]

There's a monster in the core monster manual that looks like a sort of white, eastern dragon with one arm. It comes from the positive energy plane and it's ability is that it is so full of life, objects near it spontaneously become animated. It was in one of the Planescape manuals as well, though I forgot the name.

The idea, I thought, was pretty interesting, though I never heard of anyone using it.
Because they are actually stupid. :smallwink:

And I am disappointed with you! This is a planescape monster after all.
From the PS MC3, which is generally a disappointment with no good creatures at all.


I recently have come to love yeth hounds. Even though they were one of those stupid things in the MM that nobody ever used and you never understood why anyone would put it into the primary monster book. Like the yrthak, xill, and xorn, which are right next to it.

[Eldan]

Of course they are stupid. Stupid has little to do with how interesting something can be in a game :smalltongue:

Yeth Hounds I never understood, until I read their Planescape entry. That actually makes them a bit more interesting.

[Yora]

They are the dogs of the wild hunt. They don't hunt for meat, they hunt for the fear of their prey. And they like hunting fairies.

And even worse underused are wights. Though this is partly fault of their poor stats in 3rd Edition. They are nothing but ghouls with a really mean touch attack that no GM wants to set lose on his 3rd level PCs, but these guys could be awesome.
They are arrogant bastards who have been dead for centuries, but simply refuse to die because that's beneath them. And they also stay in their tombs, sitting around, doing nothing, because going outside and taking over towns to rules is also beneath them. To me, they are evil aristocrats who have nothing but contempt for everything, and take everything as a personal insult by people who disrespect their superiority.

[Eldan]

Where's that Wight description from? I don't remember that at all, though it is pretty cool. Might make a kind of Mound King from that, an ancient king who sits in his grave all day, surrounded by his decaying treasures.

[Roguenewb]

A couple months back, I decided that I'd been playing D&D too long for there to be things in the 3.5 monster manual I'd never used. So, I had characters whip up level 18 characters, and went through the manual killing stuff. It was hilarious how stupid many of the monsters are.

Things that need more attention thought:
-Behirs, awesome corrupted dragon stock that hate blue dragons? Rock on
-Chaos Beasts, what is more eldritch horror than this thing? I wildly advanced version of this is the Dragon to Ragnorra in a game I'm writing right now
-Lycanthropes, but not against normal parties. Use them against optimiziers. They'll shake in horror of having their character so dramatically weakened.


On the other hand, all the reskinned "super" versions of monsters need to hit the bricks. Chaos Roc, I'm looking at you. Give us the level up thing as a template, present the creature as an example and wander off, oh, and never, ever, give us a template without an LA. Stop deciding what I can and cannot play. Jerks.

[Mithril Leaf]

They are the dogs of the wild hunt. They don't hunt for meat, they hunt for the fear of their prey. And they like hunting fairies.

And even worse underused are weights. Though this is partly fault of their poor stats in 3rd Edition. They are nothing but ghouls with a really mean touch attack that no GM wants to set lose on his 3rd level PCs, but these guys could be awesome.
They are arrogant bastards who have been dead for centuries, but simply refuse to die because that's beneath them. And they also stay in their tombs, sitting around, doing nothing, because going outside and taking over towns to rules is also beneath them. To me, they are evil aristocrats who have nothing but contempt for everything, and take everything as a personal insult by people who disrespect their superiority.

What exactly are you referring to here? I was thinking wights, but that doesn't really fit the fluff of wights being anything killed by negative levels.

[Yora]

That's being some love given to a bland generic creature that needs it, based on the original mythologic creature. :smallbiggrin:

Instead of being generic things that have been killed by negative energy, master wights should be high ranking nobles and warriors who were burried in their lavish crypts which they made into their new palaces. And their hate for all living creatures is just a step up from their contempt for anyone who was beneath their station in life, who should be serving them and bowing to their superiority. Their undead source is "I am too perfect to die and be forgotten".

The norse draugr haunt their barrow mounds because they can't stand the thought that anyone would still their treasures after they have died. Everything that comes near their grave is a thief and is killed or driven mad. And as wikipedia puts it, they are "driven by jelously and greed".
They are the ultimate haters. :smallbiggrin:
And I think it also makes a good reason, why they make minions, because as rich and important people, they need servants to push around.

[Eldan]

Now I'm seriously thinking about how to stat up contempt in game terms. Charisma to AC and saves is a good start.

"Psh. You? Shoot me? Pleeeeease."

[Menteith]

Now I'm seriously thinking about how to stat up contempt in game terms. Charisma to AC and saves is a good start.

"Psh. You? Shoot me? Pleeeeease."

Aura of Contempt (Su)
Whenever an enemy comes with a 30ft radius of the Wight, the enemy must succeed on a Will save (DC=10+1/2 HD+Cha mod) or be overwhelmed by the rotten splendor and dazed for 1 rounds. Regardless of the success or failure of this save, a subject affected by an Aura of Contempt is immune to that Wight's Aura of Contempt for 24 hours.

Baleful Glare (Su)
As a standard action, the Wight may direct their hate at a single target within 60ft. The victim must make a Fortitude save (DC=10+1/2 HD+Cha mod) or be stunned for 1 round and take 1d4 points of Charisma damage. A successful save negates both the sunning and the Charisma damage.

Disdain (Su)
Whenever a character attempts to make an attack role against a Wight, they take a penalty on their attack roll equal to the Wight's Charisma Bonus unless they succeed on a Will save (DC=10+1/2 HD+Cha mod). Succeeding on this save allows the attacker to ignore that Wight's Disdain ability for 24 hours. This is a mind affecting effect.

[afroakuma]

I like to think of him as an apsect of Malar. He doesn't really stand for any part of gnome life, but for everything gnomes fear.

Now see, the perspective I took on Urdlen is that he was some kind of Lovecraftian abomination, perhaps even a leaked Far Realm entity, that got released by exploring gnomes in ages past and couldn't get back. The maddened fools who opened the seal became its first cultists. Urdlen isn't really a mole, he's some horrible tunnelling thing, white and maggotty. He does have a rather Lovecraftian epithet, after all ("The Crawler Below").

Mining the various Monster Manuals has given me a much greater respect for critters I breezed past the first time. The Blackstone Gigant from the Fiend Folio, for example, is really appealing to me. A gigantic golem that petrifies people and can reanimate statues as stone warriors under its control? Yes please. I'll take two.

[Andvare]

And even worse underused are weights.

I know mine surely are. (http://www.fortsmith.ca/cms/sites/default/files/images/weights.jpg)

:smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

Does anyone ever use demon lords, archdevils or yugoloths?

[Mithril Leaf]

Does anyone ever use demon lords, archdevils or yugoloths?

I frequently use yugoloths as a player. As mercenaries by nature, they're much nicer to deal with for planar binding than demons or devils.

[Eldan]

Does anyone ever use demon lords, archdevils or yugoloths?

Yugoloths are by far the coolest fiends. I never use other fiends if I can use 'loths instead. Especially Arcanaloths and Ultraloths, they just ooze awesomeness.-

[Yora]

:smalltongue:

At no point, in my entire life, have I ever made the claim, that I could spell anything. :smallbiggrin:

[afroakuma]

Yugoloths are by far the coolest fiends. I never use other fiends if I can use 'loths instead. Especially Arcanaloths and Ultraloths, they just ooze awesomeness.-

The top rungs are indeed awesome - and nycaloths aren't so bad either. Below them, however, I've always found the 'loths to suffer from being a writhing pillar of nonsense. Yagnoloths with their one giant arm; piscoloths, who suffer from looking ridiculous; dergholoths, who I don't even why are they stump-legged spheres; two flavors of antagonistic cockroach, then bug-dogs and boatmen. And let's not forget another entry in the Nongood Planar Frogs section.

I don't know, I just think the design needs to be...well, depicted in art in a way unlike how the Piscoloths were presented in 3.X and more in keeping with their Planescape look.

[Mithril Leaf]

The top rungs are indeed awesome - and nycaloths aren't so bad either. Below them, however, I've always found the 'loths to suffer from being a writhing pillar of nonsense. Yagnoloths with their one giant arm; piscoloths, who suffer from looking ridiculous; dergholoths, who I don't even why are they stump-legged spheres; two flavors of antagonistic cockroach, then bug-dogs and boatmen. And let's not forget another entry in the Nongood Planar Frogs section.

I don't know, I just think the design needs to be...well, depicted in art in a way unlike how the Piscoloths were presented in 3.X and more in keeping with their Planescape look.

The Monster Manual 4 tentactled brute yugoloths are also amazing.

[Eldan]

The top rungs are indeed awesome - and nycaloths aren't so bad either. Below them, however, I've always found the 'loths to suffer from being a writhing pillar of nonsense. Yagnoloths with their one giant arm; piscoloths, who suffer from looking ridiculous; dergholoths, who I don't even why are they stump-legged spheres; two flavors of antagonistic cockroach, then bug-dogs and boatmen. And let's not forget another entry in the Nongood Planar Frogs section.

I don't know, I just think the design needs to be...well, depicted in art in a way unlike how the Piscoloths were presented in 3.X and more in keeping with their Planescape look.

Ah, well. Yes, the lower rans are pretty terrible overall. If the insect theme had been more or less consistent, I could have seen it working, maybe, but half of them just seem like they picked up all the spare body parts that were left over on the shelf after the Baatezu and Tanar'ri had pulled themselves out of the primordial ooze.

Not the boatsmen, though. They are cool.

[Yora]

When Manual of the Planes had ultroloth, nycaloth, mezzoloth, and canoloth, they made that choice for good reasons. :smallbiggrin:
The Arcanaloth is also quite cool, but those five are the ones I love quite a lot, while for the others I am fully with Afrokuma. They are stupid!



Other question: What are these?
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/4new/galleries/MonsterManual_art/img/114865_CN_GL.jpg
They are from 4th Edition, which I never played, and they look really cool and I have quite a bit of homebrew based on the picture, but I have no clue what they actually are.

[afroakuma]

Ah, well. Yes, the lower rans are pretty terrible overall. If the insect theme had been more or less consistent, I could have seen it working, maybe, but half of them just seem like they picked up all the spare body parts that were left over on the shelf after the Baatezu and Tanar'ri had pulled themselves out of the primordial ooze.

Not the boatsmen, though. They are cool.

Near as I can tell (and I spend a stupidly obsessive amount of time worrying over such things), insectlike forms are a generic hallmark of all fiendish races, though only among the yugoloths are they particularly "footsoldier-y," perhaps suggesting that there's something boneless and pestilential to True Evil.

Beyond that, the general rule of thumb seems to be that animalistic and particularly mammalian elements are a hallmark of the tanar'ri, while draconic and "gargoyle" motifs are hallmarks of the baatezu. Exceptions to this are few (nabassu are the only ones I can think of, off the cuff). Arcanaloths tread into bestial territory, but ultroloths look like no other fiend I know of.

And then demodands/gehreleths are hideous abuses of the humanoid skeleton. :smalltongue:

[LeshLush]

I used a yugoloth in the previously mentioned campaign that had the PCs busting out of Carceri. It was one of the boatmen, who I think are called marraenoloth, but I'm not sure. When they reached a concealed landing of the River Styx, they met a boatmanloth and bartered passage to Baator. The session spent on the boat was essentially a mixture of D&D and Apocalypse Now. Only with a Styx Dragon thrown in for good measure, because I'd always wanted to use one.

[Crasical]

When Manual of the Planes had ultroloth, nycaloth, mezzoloth, and canoloth, they made that choice for good reasons. :smallbiggrin:
The Arcanaloth is also quite cool, but those five are the ones I love quite a lot, while for the others I am fully with Afrokuma. They are stupid!



Other question: What are these?
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/4new/galleries/MonsterManual_art/img/114865_CN_GL.jpg
They are from 4th Edition, which I never played, and they look really cool and I have quite a bit of homebrew based on the picture, but I have no clue what they actually are.

Ha-haaaa, I'm fancy with my google! (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ex/20080502b) They're called Swordwings.

[Manly Man]

I actually really like using demon lords, especially the obyriths like Pazuzu and Pale Night. Graz'zt is still my favorite, and probably my favorite canon character in the entire D&D multiverse. There's just something about him that I can't place, but it appeals to me. I also like Asmodeus, but not many of the archdevils really click with me. I think it's just how much of the history of the multiverse has to do with him that makes me like him. He's involved in nearly everything that happens out there.

[afroakuma]

I actually really like using demon lords, especially the obyriths like Pazuzu and Pale Night. Graz'zt is still my favorite, and probably my favorite canon character in the entire D&D multiverse. There's just something about him that I can't place, but it appeals to me. I also like Asmodeus, but not many of the archdevils really click with me. I think it's just how much of the history of the multiverse has to do with him that makes me like him. He's involved in nearly everything that happens out there.

Obyriths definitely Need More Love. They have more Demon Lords than there are underlings to represent them. :smallconfused:

Asmodeus strikes me as the Lawful Evil version of the "multiple choice past" Joker - he leaves them all out in the open at once, but doesn't discuss any of them. I've also always had a thing for Zimmimar and Furcas of the Dark Eight - I would expect the two of them to be relatively personable for pit fiends, given that their dossiers are Morale and Mortal Relations respectively (Uncle Furcas wants YOU! for the Blood War).

[Eldan]

For fiends that break the norm, there's a slime demon with an impossible name in Planescape (and, I think, also Fiend Folio). No, not Juiblex, though it also looks like an ooze. The ice devil also looks more like a Yugoloth, really.

[Yora]

I actually really like using demon lords, especially the obyriths like Pazuzu and Pale Night. Graz'zt is still my favorite, and probably my favorite canon character in the entire D&D multiverse.
Good choices.
For my homebrew setting, I basically made all outsiders much more like obyriths. They are just really wierd and strange, and not terribly concerned about evil. They still wreck everything they come in contact with, but they are much more concerned with their own strange affairs than to torment mortals.

[Gnorman]

For fiends that break the norm, there's a slime demon with an impossible name in Planescape (and, I think, also Fiend Folio). No, not Juiblex, though it also looks like an ooze. The ice devil also looks more like a Yugoloth, really.

Not the same thing, but Darkness Given Hunger was always a cool concept. More intelligent oozes, please.

[Yora]

When I googled yugoloths an hour or so ago, one site had gelugons listed as originally yugolths that have been enslaved by mephistopheles.

[afroakuma]

For fiends that break the norm, there's a slime demon with an impossible name in Planescape (and, I think, also Fiend Folio). No, not Juiblex, though it also looks like an ooze. The ice devil also looks more like a Yugoloth, really.

As I noted earlier, insectoid forms are common to all three of the major fiendish races. Aside from gelugons (which admittedly do cling to the yugoloth body plan more than most, and I'd love to see that reference) there are advespas and kochrachons for the baatezu and chasmes for the tanar'ri.

As for the weird ooze demon, was it an alkilith by any chance?

[Cieyrin]

Speaking of outsiders, how about them Slaadi? Beings of chaos who do pretty much what they want, when they want and sometimes not even then because that'd be predictable. There's even a variety that is so chaotic they came full circle into being Lawful beings and allied with the Githzerai. Good stuff. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

As for the weird ooze demon, was it an alkilith by any chance?

Ah, yes, thank you. Being away from books sucks, I feel as if half my brain is missing.

Edit:
Xanxost likes Slaadi. He thinks they probably taste like chocolate.

[afroakuma]

I did a whole slaad project. It was fun. New colors, chaotic variations and less "slaad are eventually evil."

[willpell]

Personally I think the existing wight fluff is fine - they're powered by pure malevolence and spite, which infects everyone that dies at their hands, causing them to come back and continue killing themselves. Great metaphor for the cycle of hatred and abuse.


oh, and never, ever, give us a template without an LA. Stop deciding what I can and cannot play. Jerks.

This. So very this. It's utterly absurd how they grant LA to things that nobody sane would want to play, and then withhold it from some of the most awesome possible choices. And when they do give LA, it often makes no sense. Did you know that a Hieracosphinx and a Gynosphinx are both ECL 12? Despite the Gynosphinx being 3 CR higher AND having a more tractable alignment?

[Eldan]

I did a whole slaad project. It was fun. New colors, chaotic variations and less "slaad are eventually evil."

Hm. Yeah, that was really necessary. Planescape really screwed that up a bit. Some of the alignment have really interesting races. Some have races that can work with some care but aren't especially good (i.e. Guardinals, Rilmani). Chaos got the Slaadi.

That really shouldn't have happened.

[LeshLush]

I've always loved gnolls and lizardfolk. For whatever reason, they interest me far more than orcs, goblins, or drow ever have. I will admit to a soft spot for kobolds, but I tend to play them more old school instead of as miniature dragons.

[Talya]

From the "Creatures everyone forgets exist until the party druid busts out Summon Nature's Ally VI and summons one, and then shortly afterward the DM rules that they no longer exist..."

The Oread. (Fiend Folio)

(Not incredibly overpowered, except look at that list of Spell Like Abilities including Earthquake, that the summoning druid gets access to at Spell Level 6.)

[afroakuma]

Hm. Yeah, that was really necessary. Planescape really screwed that up a bit. Some of the alignment have really interesting races. Some have races that can work with some care but aren't especially good (i.e. Guardinals, Rilmani). Chaos got the Slaadi.

That really shouldn't have happened.

In terms of the big planars...

1) Archons are... kind of static and boring. You see them a lot, they're go-to good guys, but there's little to recommend them.

2) Guardinals suffer from being another lumbering animal race, and rather bizarre at that. If I were to give an overhaul to another planar race, I'd start here. Currently, they do not match the yugoloths at all.

3) Eladrin should be more interesting than I find they end up being presented as. They remain woefully underused.

4) Slaad suffered from the Death Slaad branch taking over. I did personal work to rectify it, but I'm still generally tickled with the notion that chaos defaults to giant frog when in doubt.

5) Tanar'ri work.

6) Yugoloths need a bit more fleshing out, though they're rather solid - even though they look ridiculous as a group.

7) Baatezu also work.

8) I didn't like Formians as a replacement for Modrons, but you really need to work to make Modrons not funny. If you can pull that off in a solid way, they actually do work for Law rather well.

9) The Rilmani are vastly underused, though their 3.X artwork does them no favors. I recently explored the notion that they replaced an earlier race of neutral exemplars (compare obyriths) who were neutral in the "everyone else is of no importance" sense. The notion of the Rilmani being more militant preservers of the balance is I think where it needs to be.

[willpell]

3) Eladrin should be more interesting than I find they end up being presented as. They remain woefully underused.

Personally I don't even call them eladrins; I go straight to the source and call them the True Fae. Gives them a lot more "oomph".


5) Tanar'ri work.

7) Baatezu also work.

This I really don't agree with. The devils and demons, and for that matter the yugoloths, are just mixed grab-bags of nasties with no real sense of theme or coherence to them. I often have thoughts of throwing out the grandfathered Gygaxian canon and just building cohesive fiendish races from the ground up - a strict pyramid of devils that all make sense as part of an infernal hierachy, and a method of generating demons that makes them all seem to be spawning from the same pool of depravity.


8) I didn't like Formians as a replacement for Modrons, but you really need to work to make Modrons not funny. If you can pull that off in a solid way, they actually do work for Law rather well.

My Modrons are very much not a joke. Granted they bear little resemblance to the canonical ones past the general idea of them being numerically tiered. Primus doubles in my game as the god of mathematics, and his minions are eerily unlike what ought to be a living creature, yet cannot be mistaken for mere machinery either.

[Manly Man]

If you bother yourself with all of the demons, the eladrin become a lot more involved. They had invaded at the same time as when the tanar'ri rebelled against the obyriths, and still have some involvement. There's an expecially cruel situation that they're in with Pale Night, on the layer Androlynne. She had managed to capture many eladrin children, and she cursed them to stay as children forever as long as they remain in The Abyss. A bunch of other good creatures are trying to save them, while Pale Night considers them all just more creatures to hunt. Still a sorely underplayed bunch though, both the obyrith demons and the eladrin.

[Eldan]

I wouldn't call the Eladrin Fae. Because I would never call Fae chaotic good.

Instead, I go with one of small bits of fluff they had and make them a race of Gandalfs.

It was mentioned that Eladrin, unlike other outsiders, can pass to the prime material plane at will, to interact with mortals. They need no summoning nor calling.

However, once there, they can neither use most of their power, nor can they show their face nor reveal their nature. They must act in small ways, or be banished back to Arborea for 100 years and a day.

This means they are, as a race, both sneaky and wise. They have perfected the art of becoming trusted advisors to powerful people and heroes and guiding them.

[willpell]

I wouldn't call the Eladrin Fae. Because I would never call Fae chaotic good.

It makes perfect sense to me, for all the more benevolent "fairy godmother" types. They mean well, but they're solipsistic and irresonsible, with no guiding principles that make it possible to trust or rely upon them. They might help you, or they might try to help in a way that makes things worse, or they might just flake out and wander away. They don't need to be malevolent, we have demons and slaads for that. They're just...not all there, and they pave a road with good intentions, which they may or may not actually follow through on.

[Eldan]

That might be true, but for me, the fey are still chaotic neutral, even those who might want to help sometimes. And I don't really go for the godmother types.

[Gnorman]

Fey and the Outer Planes seem fundamentally incompatible to me, in any case.

Fey are chaotic because they are inconsistent, inconstant, and flighty.

Eladrin are chaotic because they are physical manifestations of the principles of chaos.

It's kind of a weird distinction to make, I know, but it makes sense to me. There's also the whole "natural world" angle.

In any case, they are explicitly not fey. They're outsiders. Planescape fluff was always the best anyway.

[Eldan]

Yup.

I have a personal interpretation of Fae I use in my games.

Beyond the well-known transitive planes (the astral, ethereal and ordeal), there's also a second triplet, Plane of Shadows, the Plane of Mirrors and the Infinite Staircase. These are all transitive planes, but they are harder to access than the normal transitive planes, and they do not simply overlap with an entire plane, instead only connecting to specific places (shadows, mirrors and staircases, respectively).

The Plane of Faerie is an even older transitive plane. It used to be one of the second triplet (though I have never quite finalized what exactly it connected). However, the King of Faerie's race of natives, the Fey died, and his two daughters started a civil war over it, splitting them into Seelie and Unseelie, and eventually destroying the entire planes. The shards were scattered, with some landing on Arborea (the seelie court), Pandemonium (the unseelie court), the Dreamscape (the dream court) and the Prime (the wild fey of nature and the wild hunt).

The plane of shadows then grew from a demiplane to a full plane to take it's place in the rule of threes.


One clear difference, I think, is that as outsiders, Eladrin are connected to mortal souls, and to belief. Fey very clearly aren't. They don't care what mortals believe.

[willpell]

Didn't say fey, I said Fae. I figure that dryads and pixies and so forth are either vestigal or degenerate compared to the extraplanar True Fae, who are the embodiments of natural harmony, elemental power, and the limitless possibility of imagination. Small-f-fey are either ancestors from which the True Fae evolved (the original spirits of the anthropomorphized wilderness which eventually evolved into something completely unnatural), or they are faint shadows or reflections of the true magnificence of Faerie (which doesn't trifle with all those petty physical laws that mere mortal animals insist are somehow necessary to life).

EDIT - Or maybe I did say Fey but I meant to say Fae. Either way, really, it's not like these distinctions are important or anything...unless you were silly enough to let yourself be born Lawful.


I have a personal interpretation of Fae I use in my games.

As do I, apparentely.


Beyond the well-known transitive planes (the astral, ethereal and ordeal)

Wait, what? The third transitive is the Plane of Shadows, and I've never heard of an "ordeal" anything.


there's also a second triplet, Plane of Shadows, the Plane of Mirrors and the Infinite Staircase.

I buy the Plane of Mirrors as a transitive and use it in my CW; the Staircase doesn't seem to deserve full-plane status to me, it's more like a single thread that binds all the planes together but isn't big enough to count as a plane in and of itself, any more than a Bag of Holding or a Rope Trick counts as a full demiplane (perhaps technically, but not in any meaningful sense).


These are all transitive planes, but they are harder to access than the normal transitive planes, and they do not simply overlap with an entire plane, instead only connecting to specific places (shadows, mirrors and staircases, respectively).

That's actually rather neat. Though it does contradict existing Plane of Shadow fluff, which indicates that the entire PMP and more besides is duplicated by the Shadow realm.


The Plane of Faerie is an even older transitive plane. It used to be one of the second triplet (though I have never quite finalized what exactly it connected).

My suggestion would be pools of water, before anyone civilized enough to make a mirror existed. This allows you to give the Mirror Plane a quasi-technological feel which the faeries can resent.


However, the King of Faerie's race of natives, the Fey died, and his two daughters started a civil war over it, splitting them into Seelie and Unseelie, and eventually destroying the entire planes. The shards were scattered, with some landing on Arborea (the seelie court), Pandemonium (the unseelie court), the Dreamscape (the dream court) and the Prime (the wild fey of nature and the wild hunt).

All this is excellently cool and I tip my hat to you for it all. I may steal a few parts of it for my own CW, though I don't plan to use the Unseelie at all - still, putting them in Pandemonium was a brilliant move, as that's a plane that could use some help.


One clear difference, I think, is that as outsiders, Eladrin are connected to mortal souls, and to belief. Fey very clearly aren't. They don't care what mortals believe.

Well in my camp there is a connection, though it's more in the other direction. Faeries don't want you to believe in them; rather, they want you to believe in yourself as much as they believe in themselves (ie be utterly solipsistic, idealistic, believing nothing is impossible as long as you will it and you can have everything perfect according to your preferences as long as you don't get hung up on attachments involving other people, which rules out both love and hate as being anything more than temporary amusements), and thereby become like unto them.

[Eldan]

I'm coming from Planescape here, not from the 3rd edition planes books. The planes work differently.

There are two known transitive planes, the Astral which connects the prime material to the outer planes, and the ethereal, which connects the prime material to the inner planes. A third transitive plane is theorized, the ordeal, connecting the outer and inner planes directly.

Shadow is called out as being a demiplane on the ethereal, not a full plane. I upgraded it a bit to full plane since I play third edition, but it wasn't, technically, back in Planescape.

I like water. Though I think my theory was to make it more generally Borders. Water surfaces, hedges, gateways, dusk and dawn, that kind of thing.

And putting them into Pandemonium isn't my idea. D&D has the Queen of Air and Darkness as a goddess, and her domain is in Pandemonium.


Also, well...



Well in my camp there is a connection, though it's more in the other direction. Faeries don't want you to believe in them; rather, they want you to believe in yourself as much as they believe in themselves (ie be utterly solipsistic, idealistic, believing nothing is impossible as long as you will it and you can have everything perfect according to your preferences as long as you don't get hung up on attachments involving other people, which rules out both love and hate as being anything more than temporary amusements), and thereby become like unto them.

How is this remotely good aligned? That's perfectly chaotic neutral. Maybe even chaotic evil, depending on how they go about it.

[Eldan]

Hm. A bit more on Fae, and a bit of a self-advertisement.

I agree that hte True Fae are not pixies and dryads. Petals and Uldras and whatever else are Faerie's equivalent of animals or insects. The True Fae are terrifying, extradimensional predators who occasionally appear in humanoid shape for their own amusement.

I have a section I wrote on the Fae for my own campaign setting, which only contains the court of dreams. It's a bit disorganized and probably needs another round or two of editing, I apologize for that.

The Fey: Nightmare and Daydream


“We can give you all you need. All you have to give up is that little inconvenience called reality.”
-Lord It Is Always Following Behind of Nightmare

“It's a magic sword. Just think about what you could do if you had a magic sword.”
-Lady If I was Strong Enough of Daydream

“And Kuranes reigned thereafter over Ooth-Nargai and all the neighbouring regions of dream, and held his court alternatively in Celephaïs and in the cloud-fashioned Serannian. He reigns there still, and will reign happily forever, though below the cliffs at Innsmouth the channel tides played mockingly with the body of a tramp who had stumbled through the half-deserted village at dawn...”
-H.P. Lovecraft, Celephaïs

Dreams are powerful, and even more so in the Aether, where they take on real form in the Dreamscape. But the Dreamscape has its own predators, who prey upon the minds of the weak, and these are the Fey.
In mortal legends, the Fey may be recalled as the beautiful, fickle and cruel spirits of nature. The Fey of dream have kept the first three aspects, but their lineage has diverged in ancient times from those of the Fey of the Material Fey of Nature, and the Outer Planar Fey of Freedom. They are creatures of the mortal mind, feeding on ideas and emotions. They are able to find the dreams of mortals in the Dreamscape and enter them, taking on a role in the dream as it plays out and, if their power is great enough, even influence the dream to produce a preferred kind of emotion in the mortal.
The Fey of Dream are divided by mortal scholars into dozens of species, castes and natures. To the Fey themselves, however, these matter little: they are able and wiling to change their shapes and their allegiances at any opportune moment. What matters more, to them, is the nature of their power. The Fey feed on emotion, and the more they feed on one feeling, the more their affinity to it increases until, in the end, they are all but unable to invoke or feed on anything else.
The first division of the Fey is into the Wild Fae, the Court Fae and the Dreamlords. The Wild Fae are those who have not found one recurring, enduring dream to latch themselves onto, or who are unwilling to commit themselves to one emotion. They wander the Dreamscape alone or in small nomadic groups and, seek out and participate in any dream they come across. These Fey are almost shapeless, able to take on nearly any form in order to fit into a dream, and they are officers in a dream of war one day, monsters in a nightmare the next, whispering trees in a dream of peace the third.
The Court Fae are part of one of the two Fae Courts, Nightmare or Daydream. They are Fey who lead a more regulated life, with a net of promises, favours and allegiances to other Fey. More importantly, they have chosen a preferred mode of operation and thus have joined one of the many castes of Fey. In Nightmare, the Fey are divided into castes based on the kind of emotion they evoke in mortals whose dreams they feed on, such as the Beansidhe of fear, or the Leanansidhe of lust. In Daydream, they join castes based on the plans and goals they give mortals, such as the Muses of art or the Furies of Revenge.
The Dreamlords are the rarest kind of Fey. They have found a persistent dream, one that does not fade from one night to the next, but one that lives on across many nights. Some are the recurring nightmares of mortals with a trauma they have not overcome, others the enduring dream worlds of the great dreamers that build kingdoms in their minds that they visit again every night. A rare few, perhaps only a handful or a few dozen, are the Lords and Ladies of dreams shared by many mortals, the basic terrors and wishes of all mortalkind.
It is a mistake to believe that the fey of Nightmare only bring unpleasant dreams, and those of Daydream pleasant idleness. Their names do not refer to that.
The Fey of Nightmare, instead, are those who feed on and try to inspire in mortals their deepest, subconscious emotions: fear, lust, hatred. If they ensnare a mortal and make a pact with him, they do not want that mortal conscious. The Fey of Nightmare eject the mortal's mind out of his body, into the Dream, where they keep him permanently imprisoned in the Dream that feeds them. The body is left as a vegetable or, if the Fey is powerful enough to do so, as a puppet that enables them to see and act on the mortal world through its eyes and actions.
The Fey of Daydream feed on desires and plans. While they live in dreams, they only feed on them when they must. Their preferred form of sustenance is conscious or mostly conscious mortals, those who make elaborate plans in their mind, too elaborate to ever succeed. Those who in their daily lives build elaborate fantasies of revenge on a slight provocation, or who dream of works of art they can never achieve. The Fey of Daydream want these mortals to slip just gently over the border of dream, into half-sleep or drug-induced reverie, so they can share their minds and feed on these dreams. Daydream, more so than Nightmare, offers pacts to mortals, promising help in these plans that is never enough to entirely fulfill any ambition, but just enough to further nourish it.
All Fey of Dream, no matter their kind, share a few aspects in common. Firstly, they are all highly charismatic, beautiful and convincing, and able to ensnare weak-willed mortals with only a few words and gestures, if they want to.
Second, unlike the Fey of other planes, those of the Dreamscape have no inborn connection to the raw forces of nature and magic. Their sphere is the mind and even the least among them has some insight into their own, that of others, and the future, which manifests itself as psychic powers of telepathy and clairvoyance. Of course, many old and powerful Fey will study the arcane arts, or make bargains for it, but it does not come easy to them.
Third, they can change their aspect and shape. The Wild Fae, who have never bound themselves, can take on almost any shape they wish, changing their flesh as others change clothes. The Court Fey, as they refine their influence over dreams, lose some of that shapeshifting power as they bind themselves more to certain types of dream and certain roles in them, and the more powerful of them can merely disguise themselves, but not truly change. The Dream Lords, in the end, can only slightly change their faces and the Queens of the Fae Courts are truly locked in one shape for all their existence.
For all their power, however, Fey have a few limitations placed on them. Promises and oaths they make are binding to them. Even being forced to break a promise under magical control robs them of some of their power. Gifts and favours made must almost be returned in kind. And finally, a Fey can never lie directly. Of course, that does not mean they can not twist the truth, tell only half of it or simply remain silent. Similarly, they are masters of twisting their own word and any promise and gift around on itself, so that they will, in the end, almost always get the better out of any bargain, no matter how clever a mortal thinks himself.
They have one other weakness. The Fey are creatures of dreams and minds, illusions and half-truths. There are, however, objects in the world that have a kind of inherent reality to them. Materials that resist. Objects that their magic can not influence or change. Iron is the most famous of these, and the subject of many a legend. The Lords of Fey can twist a thousand wards around them until no fist of man or tooth of beast can touch them, but a single iron-tipped arrow can still slay them. They will stride confidently through the wards of many a mage, but a simple iron-banded door will thwart them. Imprisoning Dream Lords in castles of adamantine at the end of the world, guarded by dragons has proven ineffective to hold them, but steel manacles render them powerless. Iron is not the only one of these materials. Other metals, to a lesser degree, are imbued with similar symbolism. Heavy, unmoving Lead is not well-loved by them, and elemental Earth they fear most of all.

[willpell]

Your faerie thing is long and I only glanced at it, but overall it reminded me a lot of Changeling the Lost and of Eberron's Quori. The Quori are explcitly Evil, and the CTL Gentry are generally portrayed as almost all being so and quite possibly having no option about it, but I find this both depressing and improbable. Perhaps I'm biased, because in my entire life I don't think I've ever had anything you could call a "nightmare"; to me dreams are always positive to varying degrees, an escape from reality into a world where you are important, and where any mild unpleasantness you do encounter is less damaging to you than it would be in the waking world because there's a certain comforting detachment from your surroundings when you're not in a state of full consciousness.

In any event, when I run CTL, I make the assumption that the Gentry are all different just as humans are; some are evil just because they can be, but others are relatively benign to varying degrees, and the changelings have never heard of the nice ones because nobody ever ran away from them, or because on the rare occasions they hear a story about nice faeries, they don't want to believe it because it makes their own encounter with a not-nice one seem even worse for not having been inevitable.


I like water. Though I think my theory was to make it more generally Borders. Water surfaces, hedges, gateways, dusk and dawn, that kind of thing.

That's so much more inclusive than shadows and mirrors though. Why would it exclude them, and be so much "bigger" than them? Unless they all calved off from Faerie when it shattered, so every sort of transition became its own transitive plane, and perhaps some of them were eventually absorbed or just shriveled up and died, while the three you have now are the survivors.


How is this remotely good aligned? That's perfectly chaotic neutral. Maybe even chaotic evil, depending on how they go about it.

No, chaotic neutral is being spastic and crazy and not caring whether you do good or ill. The Fae in my setting want people to be happy; that makes them Good. What makes them Chaotic is that they don't believe you can *force* someone to be happy against their will; they figure the best they can do is set a good example and generally go about their merry way, hoping others will want to be like them and do the work of making it happen themselves, so they'll be satisfied that they earned it. This contrasts them with the archons and guardinals, who lay down rules and tell people what they should be doing, as well as with the slaads and demons, who don't care about people at all and are just doing their twitchy destructive thing, with the demons being actively spiteful and malicious about it while the slaads are more like amoral forces of nature.

[afroakuma]

Personally I don't even call them eladrins; I go straight to the source and call them the True Fae. Gives them a lot more "oomph".

If there are indeed True Fae lurking about the Planes, I would likely characterize them as the CG equivalent to the obyriths, rather than eladrin. That's just me, though.


The devils and demons, and for that matter the yugoloths, are just mixed grab-bags of nasties with no real sense of theme or coherence to them.

Ehh, I don't know; I think the baatezu have fairly strong themes prevalent throughout. The yugoloths have a lot of background, they just need to be fleshed out. As for demons, the fact that they're numerous and discordant is perfectly in line with being chaotic, so I consider that a win for them. :smallbiggrin:

Anyone have any more underappreciated monsters or deities?

[Lord_Gareth]

Please don't turn this awesome thread into a pointless alignment debate.

[Eldan]

No, chaotic neutral is being spastic and crazy and not caring whether you do good or ill. The Fae in my setting want people to be happy; that makes them Good. What makes them Chaotic is that they don't believe you can *force* someone to be happy against their will; they figure the best they can do is set a good example and generally go about their merry way, hoping others will want to be like them and do the work of making it happen themselves, so they'll be satisfied that they earned it. This contrasts them with the archons and guardinals, who lay down rules and tell people what they should be doing, as well as with the slaads and demons, who don't care about people at all and are just doing their twitchy destructive thing, with the demons being actively spiteful and malicious about it while the slaads are more like amoral forces of nature.

Ah.

I don't have that definition of chaotic neutral. Being spastic and crazy is independent of alignment, that's just called being mad. I think that wanting others to be happy too is not even a good thing exclusively, neutrals can believe that too, they just want themselves to be happy first. But the "No love, no hate, no attachments" really seems to preclude them from a good alignment to me. Love is rather essential.


Edit: sorry. No more alignment. So, how about them interesting critters?

Genies were given their fair share of material in some older settings, it seems, especially Al-Qadim, which I have unfortunately never read anything about.
That said, I think they are an interesting concept, that needs to be expanded a bit. They are basically elemental outsiders. Why do they grant wishes? How does that affect their society? And so on.

[afroakuma]

One that has a really straightforward hook, but that I can never take seriously, is the julajimus from MMII.

Far too much of that book is hard to take seriously, really. :smallsigh:

[Urpriest]

Speaking of Genies, I love the Dao. The Marids are less interesting, but the Dao...dour, depressing, slave-keeping earth-genies...something works about that.

[Yora]

One that has a really straightforward hook, but that I can never take seriously, is the julajimus from MMII.
But in the end, it's another demon ape.

When there is something nobody needs, it's more "demon apes", "evil wolves", "ghouls". The monster of the Conan d20 RPG are covered to more than 90% by these three concepts.

[Silus]

I personally feel that the obyrith in 3.5 needed expanding on. I mean, the demons that came before demons? How awesome is that?

Pathfinder did expand them with the Qlippoth, but still.

[Mithril Leaf]

I really liked the City of Brass in the Planar Handbook. It was some of the very rare Genie stuff, and was in fact a very interesting place to go. It only really concerns Efreeti, but makes them into something much more than just a wish granting machine. Somewhere where you sail in on boat of fire to sell whatever you can get your grubby hands on. Plus, among lawful evil cities, it had the most reasonable slavery laws I saw.

[Eldan]

Yeah. Too bad they apparently dropped the other three genie cities entirely in third edition.

[Mithril Leaf]

Yeah. Too bad they apparently dropped the other three genie cities entirely in third edition.

Damn shame, I would have totally enjoyed visiting them as a player.

[Urpriest]

Yeah. Too bad they apparently dropped the other three genie cities entirely in third edition.

I'm pretty sure at least Marid and Dao capitols are described in the Manual of the Planes, albeit not in much detail.

[hamishspence]

The dao capital (Great Dismal Delve) and I think the marid capital, are both mentioned in Manual of the Planes- but not covered in detail. Not sure if the djinn capital was.

EDIT: swordsaged.

[afroakuma]

The Citadel of Ten Thousand Pearls and the Court of Ice and Steel?

The genies have awesome names for things. :smallbiggrin:

[Manly Man]

I personally feel that the obyrith in 3.5 needed expanding on. I mean, the demons that came before demons? How awesome is that?

Pathfinder did expand them with the Qlippoth, but still.

Indeed. I'd love to see something more than ekolids and sibriexes. Not that they're very bad- an advanced ekolid or sibriex makes an absolutely wonderful boss monster- but there's so little else of their type around. I guess it kind of makes sense, as the tanar'ri had gone and slaughtered the vast majority of obyriths, but still. There's gotta be something else from old that spawned from that Abyssal ooze.

Also, the genies on the whole are awesome, although I kind of like marids. They're pretty easy to keep along if you have a bard that can make up decent songs on the fly that shower the marid in praise and flattery. They're kinda like if the fluff of a Warblade was cranked up to eleven.

[afroakuma]

You forgot draudnus, golothomas, laghathti, uzollru and verakias.

That said, it's still 7 types (many from Dragon magazine or the WotC website) to at least 15 confirmed obyrith Demon Lords.

[Yora]

I don't think I've ever seen those names anywhere.

[Mithril Leaf]

I always want to use Dagon, but he doesn't come up that much. Still, as a player when I get a change I like to call on Dagon for info instead of a god. He's more fun. :smallbiggrin:

[White_Drake]

Watch out for the waxing gibbous. :smallwink:

[afroakuma]

I always want to use Dagon, but he doesn't come up that much. Still, as a player when I get a change I like to call on Dagon for info instead of a god. He's more fun. :smallbiggrin:

Funnily enough, I was just looking at the kopru and thinking they'd make a good Dagon-worshiping race.

[Manly Man]

You forgot draudnus, golothomas, laghathti, uzollru and verakias.

That said, it's still 7 types (many from Dragon magazine or the WotC website) to at least 15 confirmed obyrith Demon Lords.

Unfortunately, I don't read Dragon much. Never been able to afford a subscription.

Also, another monster that doesn't seem to get much attention: the alhoon. Yes, they're mind flayers, but I've almost never seen them as liches anywhere. They look creepy as Hell, they have insane amounts of power, and they are a physical manifestation of the biggest "**** YOU" to the Elder Brains there could ever be.

[Yora]

Alhoons are cool, but with an undead abomination that terriffies the race of mind-rapeing, brain eating, parasitic squids because their incredible mind-powers are useless against it, you need to be careful not to overuse it.

You are not dealing with ilithids that often, and especially not whole cities of them. And when you do, you want to have them as the main thread and villain and not as a victim to an even greater terror.
And also, you would need to be pretty high level to be able to play such an adventure at all, which also doesn't happen that often.

[Urpriest]

Funnily enough, I was just looking at the kopru and thinking they'd make a good Dagon-worshiping race.

It's a decent fit. They're by default Demogorgon-worshippers, IIRC, so you're just transferring them to an ally.

[afroakuma]

It's a decent fit. They're by default Demogorgon-worshippers, IIRC, so you're just transferring them to an ally.

Now see, I thought they were, but then I thought it was just ixitxachitl...

[Yora]

I like Ixis. The dumbest thing about them is the name, the rest is quite cool.

[killianh]

I like the vashar personally. Humans, but evil to the very core and supposedly came before most other forms of life. I mixed the myth a bit with the God Zarus from RoD and ended up with a full on race war for human dominance. The war was mainly human vs. alt-human (illumian, azurin, etc). Considering that Zarus is the only god true racial god for humans he ended up backing the vashar. good times

[willpell]

I hate to give up a good alignment debate (they are never "pointless" IMO), but I'll spoiler it for ease of skippage by Lord Gareth and any who agree with him.



I don't have that definition of chaotic neutral. Being spastic and crazy is independent of alignment, that's just called being mad.

I have considered making madness vs. natural pragmatism a third alignment axis; it seems to cover most of the other possibilities I've debated.


I think that wanting others to be happy too is not even a good thing exclusively, neutrals can believe that too, they just want themselves to be happy first.

Even an Evil person can want themselves and a few people they like to be happy; Belkar is a good example, he derives pleasure from others' suffering and death, and occasionally lets others (mostly women, and in a thoroughly different sense, Mr. Scruffy) join in his definition of fun. So wanting someone to be happy isn't the criterion; wanting "people in general" to be happy is, and the Neutral probably don't bother themselves that much.


But the "No love, no hate, no attachments" really seems to preclude them from a good alignment to me. Love is rather essential.

Love? Oh, you mean that emotion that Bonnie and Clyde felt for each other while they were going on a mutual murder spree? That Nale and Sabine share, or that Tarquin feels toward the son who he made a birthday sign out of flaming people for? You think Love is inherently Good? Personally I would characterize Love as a variety of Madness, but that's probably me being bent in the head; it is however at least as amoral as Nature. You don't need Love to be Good (any more than you need to be Evil to hate someone; paladins might well be characterized as hating Evil), you just need benevolence, and my version of the Faeries have benevolence in spades, they just don't consider themselves entitled to do people favors they haven't asked for, or even when they do ask, if it's possible they might not really mean it.


Genies were given their fair share of material in some older settings, it seems, especially Al-Qadim, which I have unfortunately never read anything about.
That said, I think they are an interesting concept, that needs to be expanded a bit. They are basically elemental outsiders. Why do they grant wishes? How does that affect their society? And so on.

Agreed, genies are neat. I didn't care for the Dao though, they seemed kinda phoned-in to me, looking totally human except for size and color, and being evil with no real visible reason for being so (not that this is rare of course). The version I use in my campaign, though probably much the same mechanically, are fluffed to be much more interesting IMO; I call them the Iblis (after the Muslim devil, since they're Evil and nothing else alignment-wise), and they're basically made out of grave-earth and connected to the fundamentally unclean and moribund nature of life, which makes all the other djinn look down on them so they get left out of the mythology (there is not authentic earth genie in Arabic myth, since it was assumed that humans were made of Earth the way the genies were made of "smokeless fire" and the marids of water).

I hated the Vasharans at first, since once again "objectively evil for no reason" always bugs me, and doubly so in humanoids rather than outsiders, since humanoids should always have the freedom to choose. However I've ended up weaving the Vasharans very nicely into the campaign setting; they are essentially just humans devoid of a spiritual center, who default to being ultimate survivalists with no sentimentality (much the way Neanderthals by default tend to be portrayed, while with actual neanderthals I played up their primitive spirituality to make them a more firmly Neutral race).

[afroakuma]

willpell, Gareth's right - this really isn't the thread for that. Please take it to a new thread if you want to further that discussion.

I don't look into the alt-humans enough; I really should.

I've been looking over the post-MMI demons and devils; some of them seem really phoned in (like the CR 11 one whose powers are charging and fear), but there are a few interesting notions like the Palrethee that just demand to appear in a plot.

[Yora]

I've been looking over the post-MMI demons and devils; some of them seem really phoned in.

You mean MM2? :smallbiggrin:

[afroakuma]

You mean MM2? :smallbiggrin:

No, even the Kelvezu is rather on the weak side for its CR, and the Zovvut and Palrethee need improvements.

[Urpriest]

Now see, I thought they were, but then I thought it was just ixitxachitl...

There's some context in Savage Tide...I'd have to dig through my Dungeons to get the details.

[Lord_Gareth]

Remmanons (Devil, MMV) are a great concept that could use some serious improvement. Their mechanics are so utterly lackluster for a supposedly CR 15 monster T_T

[afroakuma]

How about the undead? Anyone have any standouts in that department? I was just looking at the (surprisingly neutral) Gravecrawler, a very odd one.

[LeshLush]

I've been looking over the post-MMI demons and devils; some of them seem really phoned in (like the CR 11 one whose powers are charging and fear), but there are a few interesting notions like the Palrethee that just demand to appear in a plot.

I think that there are some awesome demons in the Fiend Folio. I wish the same could be said for devils. They list a whole bunch of awesome demons, but only give us two devils. I guess the Xerfilstyx was kind of cool, but the Paeliryon was very much a let down for me. Klurichir was a viable "even the Balors fear him" demon, but we're supposed to believe that the standard devil more powerful than pit fiends is a fat blob whose powers are too much rouge and long fingernails? I think not.

While I'm on the subject of the Fiend Folio, I really have a soft-spot for the Shadar-Kai.

[Lord_Gareth]

How about the undead? Anyone have any standouts in that department? I was just looking at the (surprisingly neutral) Gravecrawler, a very odd one.

I'm a big fan of the Angel of Decay, the Entropic Reaper and the Visage, all from Libris Mortis.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I don't look into the alt-humans enough; I really should.

Now that you bring that up, Azurins could be really compelling if you put a slight twist on them based on their innate Incarnum-wielding skills. Something like having a vestigial soul fused to theirs or something.

It sounded cooler in my head, I swear.

[afroakuma]

I really have to go and examine all those creatures that come from a different reality; things like Pandorym, or the (exceedingly strange) Keepers.

[willpell]

I think that there are some awesome demons in the Fiend Folio. I wish the same could be said for devils. They list a whole bunch of awesome demons, but only give us two devils. I guess the Xerfilstyx was kind of cool, but the Paeliryon was very much a let down for me. Klurichir was a viable "even the Balors fear him" demon, but we're supposed to believe that the standard devil more powerful than pit fiends is a fat blob whose powers are too much rouge and long fingernails? I think not.

I like the Paelyrion as a concept, though admittedly I haven't studied the powers of any of the high-end fiends (or even the low-end really). More noteworthy is the fact that she was updated in FC2, lowering her CR substantially (though I believe she still overtops the Pit Fiend).


I really have to go and examine all those creatures that come from a different reality; things like Pandorym, or the (exceedingly strange) Keepers.

Synads and Grell are both supposed to have come through the Shadow Plane from an alternate Material. Nothing is psionic about Grell as written, but c'mon - THEY LOOK LIKE BRAINS. This is just coincidence? Screw that.

[Cieyrin]

While I'm on the subject of the Fiend Folio, I really have a soft-spot for the Shadar-Kai.

The Shadar-Kai are pretty rocking as fey go. I also really like the Ragewalkers. The Fey of War, they be a marching. :smallbiggrin:

You know who needs more love? Ibixians. The goatfolk are pretty solid and get better the more of them are together. They're like a medieval rugby team ready to overrun the nearest party of adventurers and are in a similar tier as gnolls in power. Good stuff. :smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

I like the Paelyrion as a concept, though admittedly I haven't studied the powers of any of the high-end fiends (or even the low-end really). More noteworthy is the fact that she was updated in FC2, lowering her CR substantially (though I believe she still overtops the Pit Fiend).


Reading the description now, apparently they are known to unleash torrents of epitaphs on their enemies. Got to love WotC editing.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Reading the description now, apparently they are known to unleash torrents of epitaphs on their enemies. Got to love WotC editing.

Maybe they're trying to be threatening?

That is, of course, if the epitaphs in question are possible epitaphs for the characters fighting it.

Daelric Unsted, born in the fire of battle, fell in the barrens of Cania!

[afroakuma]

I love the imagery behind the Ocean Strider.

[willpell]

I also really like the Ragewalkers. The Fey of War, they be a marching. :smallbiggrin:

The name is insane IMO; there's nothing ragey about them. In my game they'd be called Spirits of War or something. Other than that, they are very cool.


You know who needs more love? Ibixians. The goatfolk are pretty solid and get better the more of them are together. They're like a medieval rugby team ready to overrun the nearest party of adventurers and are in a similar tier as gnolls in power. Good stuff. :smallbiggrin:

I picked them early on to work into my game somehow; they remind me of those guys in Diablo 2. You know, those guys.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Maybe they're trying to be threatening?

That is, of course, if the epitaphs in question are possible epitaphs for the characters fighting it.

Daelric Unsted, born in the fire of battle, fell in the barrens of Cania!

You've given me the concept for my next bard, thank you muchly.

[Manly Man]

There were some folks that were really nifty concepts in Swords & Sorcery. In the Creature Collection they had The Unhallowed, folks who were originally the sorts who were chosen by the divine for some great and heroic purpose, but then were corrupted. Many of them can be some of the best and most memorable early-to-mid game bosses, especially, in my opinion, The False Lover.

[afroakuma]

Ibixians, eh?

Now here's a strange one: the rukarazyll. Looks more Far Realm than most, but is Earth Elemental, strangely.

[LeshLush]

Synads and Grell are both supposed to have come through the Shadow Plane from an alternate Material. Nothing is psionic about Grell as written, but c'mon - THEY LOOK LIKE BRAINS. This is just coincidence? Screw that.
I don't think I'll ever be able to use Grell, because whenever I look at them, all I can think to do is put one in an android body and give him an evil samurai cohort. Maybe have the PCs ally themselves with some adolescent Kappa ninjas. Or something.

[afroakuma]

That's all the cue I need to do this! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_XjL3_uOEU&feature=related)

[killianh]

That's all the cue I need to do this! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_XjL3_uOEU&feature=related)

I didn't know you needed a reason for that, or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_270948&feature=iv&src_vid=GFLGRidfFo4&v=R_K6971WmAs)

[afroakuma]

I didn't know you needed a reason for that, or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_270948&feature=iv&src_vid=GFLGRidfFo4&v=R_K6971WmAs)

Oh there's no reason for that. :smallyuk:

Here's a weird god: Mellifleur, god of lichdom and getting on the bad side of other evil deities.

[killianh]

I'm not sure how many ended up ported over, but this horrible list (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm)includes some of the funniest monsters to throw at a party. I've used a fair amount of them, particularly the Giff.

"The Giff are a race of powerfully muscled, hippopotami mercenaries"

Gold. Just gold

[Silus]

Not a God or a monster, but I feel that the Far Plane for 3.5 and the Plane of Dreams needed expanding on.

[willpell]

The Far Realm kind of works best with no rules to dictate its behavior. Faerie I fully agree on though. And also the Dream realm, since you didn't actually say Faerie, but having conflated the two I stand by the mention of both.

[Eldan]

Ibixians, eh?

Now here's a strange one: the rukarazyll. Looks more Far Realm than most, but is Earth Elemental, strangely.

Planescape did a lot of that. It didn't have a Far Realm, so it put all it's Eldritch Monstrosities into the Astral or Elemental Planes.

[afroakuma]

Planescape did a lot of that. It didn't have a Far Realm, so it put all it's Eldritch Monstrosities into the Astral or Elemental Planes.

Indeed, although the Chososion would be an example of a "stranger reality intruding" even into Planescape. Weird thingies.

There are quite a few Far Realm entities in the books, considering. The more speculative planes got far more limited support - the Plane of Wood, the Plane of Dreams, the Plane of Mirrors...

Which reminds me: Nerra. Silly LA, but what did you think of those?

[willpell]

I love the concept of a Plane of Mirrors, but the Nerra don't impress me significantly. Mirror and Dream both play a significant role in my game, although I don't use them as they're written (Mirror is not a bunch of small planes connected to different sets of mirrors, but a single whole which connects to them all as much as the Shadow Plane connects to all shadows, and Mirror doesn't spawn an evil twin of you automatically, though certainly it's possible you'll manage to find someone.)

People say the Lucid Dreaming skill is crazy broken. Why do they say that?

[Eldan]

They are not all that interesting, really. Mirrors as a concept is nice.

By the way, with what some other people here have written, I have revised my cosmology a little.

Faerie was a transitive plane that connected all things that were borders between two different states. Its transitive aspects shattered into Shadow (between light and dark, also dusk and dawn), Mirrors (used to be water surfaces, since the fey hate metal) and the Staircase (doors and staircases). Other parts of it became seelie (it is drawn to arborea, but also connects hedges and the edges of forests), unseelie (in Arborea, it is between sane and insane, I admit, a bit of a stretch) and dream (between awake and asleep).

[Silus]

Speaking of Faeries, The First World from Pathfinder could do with some expanding. Sure, it's the Gnome "homeworld" and functions like a combination of The Emerald Dream (WoW) and Wonderland, but I wanna know MORE.

Like the Tane. Engines of destruction created by the faerie kings/gods/whathaveyou to wage war. Sure we have the Sard (lightning tree the size of a redwood), the Thrasfyr (four armed dragon bear...thing), the Jabberwock, the Jubjub bird and the Bandersnatch, but that can't be all of them.

[Slii Arhem]

Well, one I always got a kick out of that hasn't seem to have gotten much spotlight since way back in the hoary days of AD&D is the Gorbel. Despite appearing in name only in a rather infamous movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6AOd6r6Qi8) "about" D&D, the first time I encountered this critter was in a third party 3.X supplement entitled Tome of Horrors, which I fell in love with since it brought back all those lovely old 1st edition monsters (even the ones that would later appear in the 3.5 Fiend Folio) for another round of use.

So just what is a Gorbel? Well to put it delicately.... it's an exploding bag of claws, teeth, and eyestalks. Everything you could want in a first level encounter really. Toss a few of them at your party and watch them boggle as every arrow and sword-thrust turns their enemies into AoE fire damage.

I even have a handy image, though it's not for the taint of fart.
(Immature humor past the spoiler)
http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/SliiHerma/Gorbel.png

[LeshLush]

I've never used the Plane of Dreams, but I've always wanted to do a D&D campaign set in H.P. Lovecraft's Dreamlands setting. Not a Call of Cthulhu game, but an actual game of D&D, where the PCs get hit by a sleep spell and wake up outside Sarnath, or as slaves on the Plateau of Leng.

[afroakuma]

Crazy beholders, beholderkin and abominations. Overseers. Directors. Lensmen.

Annnnnd Astereaters. :smallwink:

[willpell]

I've never used the Plane of Dreams, but I've always wanted to do a D&D campaign set in H.P. Lovecraft's Dreamlands setting. Not a Call of Cthulhu game, but an actual game of D&D, where the PCs get hit by a sleep spell and wake up outside Sarnath, or as slaves on the Plateau of Leng.

Actually I have had thoughts along those very lines, and am rereading TDQOUK at the moment. Perhaps I could throw together a one-off game? I've never run anything on these forums, but I could use something a little lower-stakes than my main campaign.

[Cieyrin]

I'm not sure how many ended up ported over, but this horrible list (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm)includes some of the funniest monsters to throw at a party. I've used a fair amount of them, particularly the Giff.

"The Giff are a race of powerfully muscled, hippopotami mercenaries"

Gold. Just gold

You forgot their love of firearms.

Speaking of Spelljammer monsters, we need more Scro. Lawful Space Orcs that combine the best features of orcs and hobgoblins. Awesome. :smallcool:

[TuggyNE]

People say the Lucid Dreaming skill is crazy broken. Why do they say that?

Because, like Forgery, it's a skill opposed only by itself. Unlike Forgery, it can be used to directly kill someone (by pulling them into the Dreamheart and waling* away there). There are also some other usages, but that's the most absurd.


*Yes, that's how that usage is spelled. Crazy, right?

[willpell]

Because, like Forgery, it's a skill opposed only by itself. Unlike Forgery, it can be used to directly kill someone (by pulling them into the Dreamheart and waling* away there). There are also some other usages, but that's the most absurd.

I don't have the rules to look at right now, but I would think it's fairly obvious that in order to pull someone into the Dreamheart, they would have to be dreaming, and you would have to be in their dream, or vice versa. And I don't think people ending up in each other's dreams is the sort of thing that tends to happen except by GM fiat.

[LeshLush]

You forgot their love of firearms.

Speaking of Spelljammer monsters, we need more Scro. Lawful Space Orcs that combine the best features of orcs and hobgoblins. Awesome. :smallcool:
I love Spelljammer so much. Whenever I'm running a campaign that starts plane hopping, I try to sprinkle just a little bit of that old Spelljammer magic, mostly by tweaking the Astral Plane. People sail Astral Ships around to get from plane to plane. Never used Scro, but I have given the Imperial Elvish Navy a cameo.

[afroakuma]

Spelljammer was lovely. Didn't get enough attention by far, and so many crazy monsters to use. K'r'r'r, anyone? :smallbiggrin:

Just looked over the Balhannoth again; feel like feeding it some drow.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Just a small selection...

Spellgaunts (MM2): What other little guys have a one in three chance to destroy an artifact (any artifact)? If only they were outsiders, so they could be summoned by a planar binding...

Dust Wights (MM3): These guys are near as bad as Rust Monsters for the amount of armor that they've destroyed in my campaigns.

Annihilators (Und): Tired of boring old Rust Monsters? Try them on steroids! Instead of Rusting Touch, they get a disintegrate touch. No joke.

Nagahydras (SK): Cast 6 spells a round? Yes please!

Sand Hunters (Sand): Though not particularly impressive, their hive mind is just plain cool.

Anhydruts (Sand): Epic spell pre-epic? Count me in! Of course, this breaks down, as there's no rules for Epic spells as an SLA... is there?

[afroakuma]

Now I didn't know about Annihilators at all! Those are great! :smallsmile: