DM Advice Corner: Setting Derailment

[Craft (Cheese)]

So for the past few weeks I've been running a non-fantasy medieval campaign based around a civil war. Long story short, the PCs succeed (more or less) and end up with uncontested control of the realm.

One problem: In the process, they invented magic.

I had planned to end the campaign and start a new one, but the PCs want to keep going.

So, what I wanted to talk about here is... well, what comes next? What happens when magic is introduced to a previously unmagical world, and the world is suddenly taken over by a group of new wizards?

To be clear, the one thing I don't want to do is retcon the new existence of magic to just wave these issues away and do a standard kingdom management campaign.

[Mr Tumnus]

So for the past few weeks I've been running a non-fantasy medieval campaign based around a civil war. Long story short, the PCs succeed (more or less) and end up with uncontested control of the realm.

One problem: In the process, they invented magic.

I had planned to end the campaign and start a new one, but the PCs want to keep going.

So, what I wanted to talk about here is... well, what comes next? What happens when magic is introduced to a previously unmagical world, and the world is suddenly taken over by a group of new wizards?

To be clear, the one thing I don't want to do is retcon the new existence of magic to just wave these issues away and do a standard kingdom management campaign.

You could handle this a number of ways depending on the Kingdom itself.

First Attempt

people skeptical about magic

In the immediate aftermath of the war there is the normal rejoicing and enthusiasm but shortly after there begin to arise doubts as to the nature of the PC's power, what it truly means and where they got it. A natural happens, the general populace is quick to assume that the gods are angry at them for bringing such an aberration as magic into their midst and calls for them to be banished.

At this point the part of the foil pretty much writes itself, he/she/they are the ones pushing the people against the PC's and slowly making themselves appear to be the hero of the common folk. PC's discover that they are actually using magic to influence public opinion and fun stuff happens.

Second Attempt

Following the discovery of magic and the great many benefits that it provides the nation; Medical Care, Comfort, Industry among many others the public embraces magic and it quickly spreads to all edges of the kingdom. Several months or even years down the road when it's magic is pretty much everywhere I would make it apparent that there are several people misusing their magic. Things begin to happen, those that can't use magic ask the govermnent to take steps to protect it's citizens. Calling for those who can wield magic to identify themselves, to wear some sort of garment that says that they're magic users. The government might agree to this but it's quickly taken way too far. Magic users are singled out on the streets and beaten for various reasons, no matter their original intent with the identification it does nothing but make them a magnet for trouble. Everyone using them as a scapegoat for all their problems; "I lost my job because a wizard can do my work in half an hour", "they weren't able to save my dying mother", "they turn my milk sour". Logically it makes almost no sense but once people begin thinking like a mob then things get ugly fast. The country begins to once again to gravitate into two separate groups: people that can use magic and people that can't. While there is a greater number of people that can't use magic those that actually wield it are many times more useful in combat. If steps aren't taken then the country slides into another civil war.

[NichG]

Magic is young and untamed. If the PCs just invented it, there should be plenty of things that don't work quite like they think. People aren't used to magic and when exposed to large amounts of it over periods of time there are mutations. Templates spontaneously emerge, not all of them good. Magical beasts start showing up near centers of magical research.

Not just that, but cosmological forces sense a change in the air. The powers that once only belonged to the gods now belong to man, and they want to nail Prometheus to a cliff and feed his organs to birds for a few millennia.

The PCs will eventually have pupils, those they teach these new arts to so that they may survive. Some of these pupils end up investigating things the PCs believe are better left alone.

A more positive note: the PCs are now poised to take the world and make it a power-player amongst the planes themselves (or the void of space or whatever frontiers your world may have). They must contend with other types of power: technology, alchemy, psionics, etc, as they try to uplift their world into a greater game.

The last option: have the players start new, low-level characters in the world their PCs have created.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm assuming that you intended for them to invent/discover magic over the course of the campaign? Because otherwise it seems like it would have been pretty easy to say "sorry, you can't just make magic exist in this setting."

[Craft (Cheese)]

I'm assuming that you intended for them to invent/discover magic over the course of the campaign? Because otherwise it seems like it would have been pretty easy to say "sorry, you can't just make magic exist in this setting."

No, but again I've only given the short story. Consider three facts:

- I'm really big on collaborative world building and player empowerment. I let the players decide things about the setting that would normally be in the DM's purview all the time, though normally not anything this big.

- I'm also big on dramatic narrative. If it creates drama and pushes the story or characters in interesting new directions, I'll allow pretty much anything.

- In keeping with the above two, I play with the rule that you decide how your character dies. Death is a thing that can (or rather, should) be only used once, so it needs to be a meaningful thing. Make it awesome.

Finally, there's the context of the invention itself. The player made it a big part of their character (Ser Illan) that he believed that fantastic things like magic really existed, and his dream in life was to discover them. He decided he wanted his character to die casting the world's first true spell.

It wasn't really planned in advance, but it was so meaningful, so awesome, and it just made so much sense considering everything else, I just couldn't have said no. The game would have been detrimented if I had, so that's not a choice I regret.

[Kadzar]

Well, knowing more about the story certainly helps.

Now, unless the spell was witnessed by a lot of people, or had some long lasting effect, it's most likely going to be regarded as just a legend. Some people might try to recreate the spell, and they might eventually succeed, unless magic in this setting is a thing that only comes into effect in very special circumstances and can't be invoked in any sort of reliable manner.

If it can be called upon by some means, it will probably be low-powered and/or impractical, at least at first. Being a new discovery, it's not likely to be widely implemented in it's early stages, but, if using magic is in any way or situation better than not using magic, it will eventually impact society.

[Reluctance]

What setting/rules engine? Casting the first true spell is impossible in any established setting; either magic doesn't exist, or it does, and somebody else would have figured out how ages ago. That doesn't mean you can't have the potential for magic in a primarily nonmagical world, just that you have to explain why it petered out.

However you can tinker things in terms of cost, power, and safety/reliability, go do that. If you want to take a page from charlatans and modern fantasy everywhere, say that disbelieving observers make it that much harder.

Once "magic" is discovered by the world at large, though, it'll become another physical law to be studied. Unless you have some handwavium that keeps it mysterious, it'll become just as supernatural as electromagnetism is considered nowadays.

[TuggyNE]

You could handle this a number of ways depending on the Kingdom itself.

First Attempt

people skeptical about magic

[...]

Second Attempt

[...]

This is a very accurate view of the effects of human nature on a discovery like magic, and seems like a good model to take inspiration from.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Well, knowing more about the story certainly helps.

Here's the relevant part: Many years ago, Ser Illan came across a cave on his lands containing a vein of a strange, blue stone. Though he's searched far and wide, he's never met anyone who knew anything about it. His own experiments with it have shown that if you grind it up into powder, and burn it, it lights up with a bright blue flame. Inhaling the smoke causes hallucinatory visions: Whenever he did this, he always saw a vision of a horrible monster made out of clouds come down from the sky to devour the world.

Ser Illan was convinced that these visions were magical, and the stone had yet more power waiting to be unlocked. Everyone else he told about it just thought he was a loon. The mystery of the blue powder was sortof Ser Illan's personal little side story throughout the campaign (I encourage all characters to have one), though up until the "end" I had trouble tying it into the ongoing civil war main plot. My intended explanation, when I found a way to work it in, was that the blue stone was just a regular hallucinatory drug.

So, it's the climax of the campaign, and what I intend to be the final scene. The PCs have gained control of the palace at the center of the capital city, but five other armies have surrounded them and breached the city walls, and will be able to get into the keep itself at any moment.


That's when Ser Illan's player gets the idea to pull out the death card. Ser Illan has a sudden flash of insight. Not having much time, he coats his sword in the blue powder and thrusts it into his heart. Seconds later, his body explodes in a blue fireball, releasing a gigantic tower of dark blue smoke that blasts its way through the ceiling of the palace throne room and piles high into the sky, blotting out the sun. Minutes later, the gigantic cloud forms itself into a hideous face that swoops down and covers the city.

The citizens (and the invading armies) fly into a panic. The thick fog makes seeing past a few feet in front of you impossible. Bursts of lightning saturate the city, setting many buildings on fire, while the fog condenses into twisted, humanoid soldiers, attacking the enemy armies in vast numbers. Most of the enemy soldiers panic and flee.

A few hours later, the smoke clears and the fog soldiers vanish with it. The enemy armies have been completely decimated, with all of the commanding officers killed or missing. Ser Illan is nothing but a black burn mark on the floor.

And... that's where the session ended.


What setting/rules engine?

FATE, and an original setting.

[Iceforge]

Maybe this Sir Illan was, and will remain even in death, the only living creature in the world who had instinctive understanding of magic enough that he could cast a spell, and all attempts to duplicate it, will simply not work.

But I fear that one wont really solve your problems, as it seems that what they truly need, is a way for a new enemy to appear that makes sense, so they are again challenged.

So maybe the true story of the blue stone, is that it is a remaining artifact, creates as the last deed by one of histories former few, who was able to truly understand magic, lets for now call this person Adam.
Adam had lived in a time long passed, where magic was not totally unheard off, but still not widely known about, trusted and indeed many did not believe that magic truly existed, but Adam, son of a noble family, was convinced it existed and had the monetary means to track down information and finally found people who could teach him the ways of magic.
His house grew in power as he with quite military brilliance, aided by good commanders obviously, attacked neighbouring kingdoms and noble families to gain land and attain control of items and people who was vital for him to increase his understanding of magic.
As his parents died and he became the ruler of the kingdom, it became an utopia for magic users, and all magic users in existance flocked to his kingdom, where they would get quarters fit for nobles and be able to further their research into magic, as long as they shared their findings with X, which seemed a small price, as they could satisfy their own curiosity for magic and live almost like kings at the same time.
But as the eve of his life was drawing near, he wanted to obtain immortality and started desperately researching into how he could become your settings equivalent of a lich, and he did find out, but it had an unbearable price: He had to take a vast number of lives, and while he in commanded armies, and people had been slain at his command, he could not bring himself to kill anybody by his own hand directly, which was seemingly the only way to obtain this immortality.
Almost falling to despair, he found a single loop hole in the magic that could grant him immortality: The blue stone.
It would kill him to create it, but when someone magically keen would find it and it use it's horrible powers, he would awake alive once again, but now immortal.
As he had prepared to the ritual to create the Blue Stone, a sense of panic and paranoia took him; What if someone magically keen living there would find the stone and use the information easily found there to figure out the Blue Stones true power and purpose, and consequently destroy it?
That was a chance he dared not take, and while he could not kill with his own hand, killing by giving orders came easy to him, so he ordered his army to attack his secondary palace, while all the magicians was sleeping, having moved all the items he needed off to his main palace first.
And as the slaughter commenced on his former friends, he finished the ritual, creating the Blue Stone.
When his son found X dead in the room with the Blue Stone there, he figured this was some last revenge from the magicians and ordered the Blue Stone destroyed, but as the magic was fresh, it was impossible to harm, and instead they ended up sealing it away in a cave, hopefully to be forgotten by time...until a certain Sir Illyn stumbled upon it centuries later...

[Rama]

Since magic has never existed before, there are going to be plenty of people not happy about it. A version of the Spanish Inquisition hunting down those responsible and burning them at the stake would not be out of line.

[nedz]

Perhaps there were Guardians of Magic, who'd like to get it back in its box ?

[Eldan]

Pull a Riftwar?

Let me elaborate. Bring in a new enemy from another dimension. The enemy has long known magic, but needs the blue stone, so they will viciously attack any world that has newly discovered it.

Thinking about it, a better idea might be stealing a bit from the plot of Avengers. There is an interdimensional/interplanar/interplanetary empire that attacks new worlds that find said blue stone. Go from there.

[VanBuren]

What setting/rules engine? Casting the first true spell is impossible in any established setting; either magic doesn't exist, or it does, and somebody else would have figured out how ages ago. That doesn't mean you can't have the potential for magic in a primarily nonmagical world, just that you have to explain why it petered out.

Or, in this case, how the PC managed to create it.

[DontEatRawHagis]

Nice setting switch.

Stuff you might see:

Cults - People with power come together under common goal. Start of some Magic Academies
Felons - Power turns people power hungry, stealing and killing.
Usurpers of the thrones - Plan to kill kings and take their place.
Changelings - Pretend to be kings
Mind Control - Try to gain power
Love Potion rampancy - Women and Men use magic that creates "love" end up making people paranoid
Pushing the boundries of life and death - Immortality is a stones throw away
Gods among men syndrome - Those who were weak are now on power trips, those with power grow more power hungry.
Power Switches - Bandit Kings are killed and replaced by magic users, unless they also gain magic.


As far as how magic could work:

No incantations - The incantations have to be discovered. It would be like programming without knowing how to program. Trial and Error without any idea what they are doing.
Reagents - The creation of magic has caused the world's properties to change. Mixing herbs and ingredients can cause reactions
Emotion - *in 4e this is psionics* Anger, hate, fear, love, or hope creates spells.
Will Power - Want something so much it happens.
Spirituality - Belief causes magic
Science - an new understanding of magic allows people to learn how to perform it.

[Kadzar]

I don't think it's necessary for magic to be a thing that existed long ago but was lost to the ages or comes from another dimension. That's only really necessary when you want to explain an abundance of magical items that people of the current era are unable to produce. It could very well be that magic is something that can be done with the aid of Blue Stone, but no one every bothered to do anything with it because the material seemed so useless (it might even be so brittle it can't even be used as jewelry).

And you don't need to send an enemy from the past or another universe at them. They have demonstrated that they have a superweapon capable of defeating five armies at once. Sure, this may scare off some or most people, but it's also liable to make some other people very curious. It's quite probably that such people would be willing to do whatever it takes to get their hands on that sort of power, and it's equally probably that the PCs won't be able to pull the same trick twice when those people stop asking nicely for it and try to take it by force.

[Craft (Cheese)]

And you don't need to send an enemy from the past or another universe at them. They have demonstrated that they have a superweapon capable of defeating five armies at once. Sure, this may scare off some or most people, but it's also liable to make some other people very curious. It's quite probably that such people would be willing to do whatever it takes to get their hands on that sort of power, and it's equally probably that the PCs won't be able to pull the same trick twice when those people stop asking nicely for it and try to take it by force.

Plus, I'm against the idea of sending an extradimensional enemy at them for more meta-reasons.

It conflicts with the themes of the campaign. Before the magic thing happened the campaign was about the sorts of rotten things people can do when blinded by the promise of wealth and power, and the futility of trying to be "the good guys" when literally the only difference between your own actions and your enemies' is that you have the law on your side.

I think there's plenty more fertile ground for exploration of those themes without resorting to "Oh noes, another war you have to fight! And this one's way stronger than the last one!"


So thanks for all the replies, guys. Here's what I've decided thus far:

- The first thing the PCs have to do is run a cleanup operation of the city. Putting out the fires, repairing the important buildings, etc. There were also a lot of civilians who were injured or killed in the fighting, and considering the cloud very clearly originated from the palace it's not difficult to piece together that the PCs had something to do with it. Much of the citizenry is going to be antagonistic towards them.

- After that, the next task is the redistribution of fiefs. Considering most of the realm's major nobility is dead (and those who remain have proven disloyal to the crown) and all. This is important, as the ones they give power to will be made very happy while those they don't will be made very upset. This event could easily determine their allies and enemies among what's left of the upper classes for the rest of the campaign.

- The secret to magic is you need to get the blue stone (which needs a better name; Magestone?) into your bloodstream before you can cast spells (the exact details of how you cast a spell once the stone is in your bloodstream to be determined later). The problem is the blue stone itself is a powerful deliriant. If you're not careful, you can easily lose control of yourself while using it.

- The PCs are the only ones who know the connection between blue stone and magic, and how it's used to cast spells... for now. That's only going to stay true so long as the PCs work to keep it that way. As soon as the secret's out, other wizards are going to start popping up...

- Problem: One of the players needs to make a new character. How is this going to work? It doesn't make logical sense for the remaining PCs to openly give the secret of magic (and political power) to a new member of the group, but I don't think it'll work if one PC is left out. Metagaming and having the PCs share with their spontaneous new best buddy for no reason than because they're another PC is also unappealing.

- Ser Illan's sacrifice was a one-time thing that nobody who tries will be able to duplicate, and nobody really knows the reason why. Attempts to cast other spells will be far weaker. Though those who haven't experimented much with magic themselves won't necessarily know this... Note to self: Make an adversary who thinks the blue stone is way more powerful and valuable than it actually is. Several, even.

- I very much like the idea of the first spell being so big, so awesome, and so violent that it has long-reaching, long-lasting side effects. "People start mutating" is the obvious one but it's a tad cliche. One idea I have is it makes magestone(?) veins start appearing in a bunch more places, as a way to explain how anyone with a little bit of money can get their hands on it (after the secret gets out) when it was so rare before that nobody knew anything about it. Anyone got some better ones?

[Herabec]

So for the past few weeks I've been running a non-fantasy medieval campaign based around a civil war. Long story short, the PCs succeed (more or less) and end up with uncontested control of the realm.

One problem: In the process, they invented magic.

I had planned to end the campaign and start a new one, but the PCs want to keep going.

So, what I wanted to talk about here is... well, what comes next? What happens when magic is introduced to a previously unmagical world, and the world is suddenly taken over by a group of new wizards?

To be clear, the one thing I don't want to do is retcon the new existence of magic to just wave these issues away and do a standard kingdom management campaign.
What happens when magic is introduced to a previously non-magic world?

Well, I like how NieR handled it....

Ala, it causes a plague that infects non-magical beings and kills them all. Take that, players! That's what you get for introducing magic in a non-magical setting!

[Reluctance]

First, you can always say that "magic" in your setting comes down to bringing otherworldly beings into our reality. It involves some sacrifice, and controlling the summoned beings involves some form of bargaining. It fits with the themes of your campaign, and prevents the "magic can do anything" trope that will turn the whole thing upside down. This also lets you tie in mythology of gods and dragons and such things, although try to spin it as "you can learn from these legends" instead of "you can call up these legendary beings".

Second, I do say to let it crack the world. Fluxstone is an extrusion of another reality into our own. Veins are popping up in new places now. You can say that overuse of it causes fundamental metaphysical damage, while not turning your campaign into an environmentalist metaphor.

As to how people react, in the short term, nobody will know the specifics of your nuke or what it cost to bring it to bear. In the immediate term, you guys are a global superpower. I'd suggest doing a few vignettes where the basic laws of magic are discovered, and a few supposedly loyal researchers have leaked the basics to other people. Then move to the arms race having caught up, where people still think you can pull off that trick again, but it's gone past the "HOLY POOP!" phase and into people experimenting with just what this game changer can really do.

[Arbane]

Awesome story.

I'll just point out that the first spell involved the caster killing himself. If that's necessary to do 'magic', that should DEFINITELY help it remain rare, no matter how powerful it is. If the caster only has to kill SOMEONE, well....

[VanBuren]

Maybe you don't need to kill someone every time. If his death was enough to bring magic into the world, then maybe magic should start fading away over time until someone else is sacrificed. Make it like a regular thing.

[Sith_Happens]

Maybe you don't need to kill someone every time. If his death was enough to bring magic into the world, then maybe magic should start fading away over time until someone else is sacrificed. Make it like a regular thing.

Huh, why am I suddenly getting a distinct Fullmetal Alchemist vibe from this thread...

Maybe... THE BLUE STONE IS PEOPLE!!!

[VanBuren]

Huh, why am I suddenly getting a distinct Fullmetal Alchemist vibe from this thread...

Maybe... THE BLUE STONE IS PEOPLE!!!

""More like a joke than gossip... Orcus feeding cats, undying humans, Elminster is a homunculus..."

[toapat]

- Problem: One of the players needs to make a new character. How is this going to work? It doesn't make logical sense for the remaining PCs to openly give the secret of magic (and political power) to a new member of the group, but I don't think it'll work if one PC is left out. Metagaming and having the PCs share with their spontaneous new best buddy for no reason than because they're another PC is also unappealing.

Solution: Illan is dead, but he is a spirit. i know its a bit anti-climatic that his sacrifice doesnt make him deader then dead, but there is litterally no way to have a new PC without the complete problem of "why do we trust them with this knowledge?" if it isnt a glowy blue shade of the guy who just cast "Strife Veil".

then, there is reason to not trust the glowy blue dead guy.

or, i dunno, he had a wife who never cared for power?

[NichG]

It might not be too hard: there was a witness they didn't notice at the time. He has the secret, and if the PCs don't bring him in, he'll probably go and develop it on his own.

[Jack of Spades]

What setting/rules engine? Casting the first true spell is impossible in any established setting; either magic doesn't exist, or it does, and somebody else would have figured out how ages ago. That doesn't mean you can't have the potential for magic in a primarily nonmagical world, just that you have to explain why it petered out.

Don't do that. Just because something exists doesn't mean someone has to have already discovered it. Every year caverns are discovered that have never been seen by humans. Some of those have never even had life in them. Saying that magic has either always existed or never will is like saying that Roentgenium has always existed but humanity forgot how to combine atoms into unstable forms in a lab environment. Discovery happens. There's no reason to be so cynical.

[toapat]

*snip*
your example of a fabricated element is a bad point. Humans didnt know how to make highly unstable elements before the last 100 years, but stars have been doing that for 15 billion at the least.

[Fouredged Sword]

Here is what I say.

Don't tell the players anything. They have no idea what the stone did or why.

Magic becomes a tool, one that requires sacrifice, effort, and soul. Three elements combine to create any magic effect, Magestone, blood, and iron.

To do magic blood must be spilled fresh. Sacrifice works best.

What magic DOES is create dreams. It makes a dream real, and few people have the ability to control their dreams. Whenever someone works magic it always has consequences. Their fears are created along with their hopes. It is a dangerous thing, but what is as tempting as your dreams?

[TuggyNE]

your example of a fabricated element is a bad point. Humans didnt know how to make highly unstable elements before the last 100 years, but stars have been doing that for 15 billion at the least.

That is actually precisely why it's a great point. Magic presumably existed, in some sense, before the OP's players discovered it; however, no one knew anything about how to use it or even how to verify its existence. The similarity with atomic elements is rather good, in fact.

[VanBuren]

That, or we're talking about somehow altering reality on fundamental level in order to make it possible for magic where it wasn't before. The options here are numerous. The execution is the hard part.

[Reluctance]

Don't do that. Just because something exists doesn't mean someone has to have already discovered it. Every year caverns are discovered that have never been seen by humans. Some of those have never even had life in them. Saying that magic has either always existed or never will is like saying that Roentgenium has always existed but humanity forgot how to combine atoms into unstable forms in a lab environment. Discovery happens. There's no reason to be so cynical.

Actually, it's more like stumbling across a previously unknown cave with prehistoric drawings in it. People had been there before. That doesn't make the modern rediscovery any less cool. Ser Illan is still every bit as badass even if someone centuries ago did something similar that is now written off as pure myth.

The main point was more to contrast it with 3.5's magic system, though. If magic is simple, predictable, cheap, versatile, and powerful, it would've become a major force in society. Tweaking those allows you to put a different spin on what "magic" is. Not to mention tying into Cheese's points about the lengths people are willing to go for power, and similar moral chestnuts.

[VanBuren]

Actually, it's more like stumbling across a previously unknown cave with prehistoric drawings in it. People had been there before. That doesn't make the modern rediscovery any less cool. Ser Illan is still every bit as badass even if someone centuries ago did something similar that is now written off as pure myth.

The main point was more to contrast it with 3.5's magic system, though. If magic is simple, predictable, cheap, versatile, and powerful, it would've become a major force in society. Tweaking those allows you to put a different spin on what "magic" is. Not to mention tying into Cheese's points about the lengths people are willing to go for power, and similar moral chestnuts.

But why do there have to have been people there before?

[Reluctance]

Realistically? Because people have been huffing strange things for the longest time. So long as this existed at all, someone would've tried it. This isn't advanced engineering where you need each generation of tools to build the next generation of better tools to make cooler stuff.

Worldbuilding? Because assuming that somebody in the past huffed magic rock raises the question of why the world didn't Tippy. Which is a good way to ask why the current world won't Tippy as magic enters the equation. What kept magic from becoming all-powerful back then?

As a story element? As much fun as it is to explore virgin territory, there's something even more intriguing about finding traces that someone else was there. Retroactively adding other magic users to the current time would cheapen the feeling. Realizing that you're in an exclusive club with some of the greatest mystics and saints in history is something to feel proud of.

[VanBuren]

Realistically? Because people have been huffing strange things for the longest time. So long as this existed at all, someone would've tried it. This isn't advanced engineering where you need each generation of tools to build the next generation of better tools to make cooler stuff.

Quick counter: They could have tried, but it simply wasn't possible. It couldn't have happened.

And when it finally did happen, it took a very specific set of circumstances all working together to kickstart it and make it a part of reality's physics.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Solution: Illan is dead, but he is a spirit. i know its a bit anti-climatic that his sacrifice doesnt make him deader then dead, but there is litterally no way to have a new PC without the complete problem of "why do we trust them with this knowledge?" if it isnt a glowy blue shade of the guy who just cast "Strife Veil".

then, there is reason to not trust the glowy blue dead guy.

Him and I talked it out and a slight variation of this is what we decided on: He'll stick around as a ghost, but he'll only be capable of interacting with the other two PCs (only they can see or hear him, and he just passes right through everything corporeal). Neither of us could come up with anything better and he found the limitation interesting to try to work with, at least until introducing a more suitable PC becomes appropriate, anyway.


As for the whole magic in the past argument, I have a few thoughts.

1. Huffing the magestone isn't enough to get powers, you have to get it into your bloodstream. Before the invention of intraveinous injection. How many people are going to cut themselves open and stick this random blue stuff they found inside of them just to see what it does? Furthermore the hallucinations caused by it are always extremely frightening and unpleasant. People who do it once don't do it a second time, unless they have a scholarly interest in it like Ser Illan did.

2. ...Honestly, does it really matter? If previous wizards did exist, there are no credible traces of their existence left. There are no writings on magic, at least none that the PCs would even begin to be able to decipher and translate. They are on their own to figure all of this stuff out. When and how could a prior magical apocalypse or whatever possibly come up? It's just not relevant to their current situation nor the ideas I wish to use the campaign to explore.

[toapat]

Him and I talked it out and a slight variation of this is what we decided on: He'll stick around as a ghost, but he'll only be capable of interacting with the other two PCs (only they can see or hear him, and he just passes right through everything corporeal). Neither of us could come up with anything better and he found the limitation interesting to try to work with, at least until introducing a more suitable PC becomes appropriate, anyway.

i left it vague because i didnt know which type of Incorporeal undead would be the best choice for ser Illan

i do like the potential that the other 2 PCs just went insane though and only believe that Magister Warmage is a ghost.