Can Lesser Planetouched Remove Template LA?

[Mithril Leaf]

So I've been wondering about this for a while, but could the rules for lesser planetouched (assuming that it removes one LA instead of all LA, due to it being more balanced) potential remove 1 LA that a normally LA 0 gains from being templated with for example, lloth-touched? Some examples of +0 LA planetouched include neraphim (from planar handbook) and glimmerfolk (from dragon magazine 336?).

[Lanaya]

No. The lesser planetouched race has LA +0, and just like any other LA +0 race, adding a template with LA will increase its ECL. And where does it say that neraphim are planetouched? They're just regular outsiders with LA.

[Mithril Leaf]

No. The lesser planetouched race has LA +0, and just like any other LA +0 race, adding a template with LA will increase its ECL. And where does it say that neraphim are planetouched? They're just regular outsiders with LA.

Although not in the normal spot, if you head to page 142 of the Planar Handbook, Neraphim are listed as an example of Planetouched. Same book and everything.
Additionally, what I was saying is applying templates in the most favorable order. Base race -> Template -> Lesser. This is using the fairly standard assumption that lesser planetouched is considered a -1 LA template, due to allowing the removal of all default LA from very high LA creatures under the other assumption.

[Benly]

Although not in the normal spot, if you head to page 142 of the Planar Handbook, Neraphim are listed as an example of Planetouched. Same book and everything.
Additionally, what I was saying is applying templates in the most favorable order. Base race -> Template -> Lesser. This is using the fairly standard assumption that lesser planetouched is considered a -1 LA template, due to allowing the removal of all default LA from very high LA creatures under the other assumption.

"Lesser planetouched" isn't a template, though - there's no template writeup, just a suggested modification for making +0 LA races.

[Mithril Leaf]

"Lesser planetouched" isn't a template, though - there's no template writeup, just a suggested modification for making +0 LA races.

True. But what I'm asking is what if that LA isn't from the planetouched race directly. What if it's from a template. It's technically a +1 LA planetouched race. What's the closest to RAW we have here?

[Benly]

True. But what I'm asking is what if that LA isn't from the planetouched race directly. What if it's from a template. It's technically a +1 LA planetouched race. What's the closest to RAW we have here?

Then you're a Lesser Tiefling (or whatever) with a template applied. The "closest to RAW" would be that "lesser (thing)" is a base creature. Assuming you modified a neraph to a lesser neraph, you would then be a lesser neraph +0 LA) with a template applied.

[Mithril Leaf]

Then you're a Lesser Tiefling (or whatever) with a template applied. The "closest to RAW" would be that "lesser (thing)" is a base creature. Assuming you modified a neraph to a lesser neraph, you would then be a lesser neraph +0 LA) with a template applied.

By that logic one could make a shadowsyft with 0 LA if lesser just sets LA to 0.

[Urpriest]

By that logic one could make a shadowsyft with 0 LA if lesser just sets LA to 0.

Have you heard of Lesser Fey'ri? This sort of thing gets legitimate discussion.

[Mithril Leaf]

Have you heard of Lesser Fey'ri? This sort of thing gets legitimate discussion.

That may have been the race I was thinking of. Bunch of bonus abilities, +3 LA?

[Lanaya]

Although not in the normal spot, if you head to page 142 of the Planar Handbook, Neraphim are listed as an example of Planetouched. Same book and everything.
Additionally, what I was saying is applying templates in the most favorable order. Base race -> Template -> Lesser. This is using the fairly standard assumption that lesser planetouched is considered a -1 LA template, due to allowing the removal of all default LA from very high LA creatures under the other assumption.

Huh. Weird. But planetouched are supposed to be half human, neraphim aren't half human... Oh well, who am I to question the will of WotC.

EDIT: Page 142 of my Planar Handbook is a fluff section about Sigil, I don't think that trumps the neraphim monster entry that discusses its rules.

Do you have any source on lesser being a template? It never calls it a template as far as I can tell, and the layout is the standard subrace layout. Perhaps the interpretation that lesser is a subrace rather than an LA +0 template allows makes some races overpowered, but that doesn't make it an incorrect interpretation.

[Mithril Leaf]

Huh. Weird. But planetouched are supposed to be half human, neraphim aren't half human... Oh well, who am I to question the will of WotC.

EDIT: Page 142 of my Planar Handbook is a fluff section about Sigil, I don't think that trumps the neraphim monster entry that discusses its rules.

Do you have any source on lesser being a template? It never calls it a template as far as I can tell, and the layout is the standard subrace layout. Perhaps the interpretation that lesser is a subrace rather than an LA +0 template allows makes some races overpowered, but that doesn't make it an incorrect interpretation.


Planetouched is a general word to describe someone who can trace his or her bloodline back to an outsider, usually a fiend or celestial.
From the SRD. I suppose that the Neraphim tracing their bloodlines back to slaad many generations ago counts:smallconfused:? Still, nothing directly contradicts the fluff of Sigil as far as I can tell. And since specific overrides general it would seem to lean towards Neraphim being planetouched. Feel free to prove me wrong though.

Anyway, that's not the point. We seem to have two situations here, both of which can be fairly broken. In situation A, lesser is a -1 LA template which can only be applied to planetouched, which is what I would support. In situation B, which could very well be right, lesser is a racial varient on all planetouched which allows complete removal of LA. Situation A allows us to get a free +1 LA by playing a lesser glimmerfolk (or arguably neraphim), not a bad trade off. Situation B allows us to play any planetouched without having to deal with LA, no matter how great their base LA would be. Troublesome.

[The Dark Fiddler]

From the SRD. I suppose that the Neraphim tracing their bloodlines back to slaad many generations ago counts:smallconfused:? Still, nothing directly contradicts the fluff of Sigil as far as I can tell. And since specific overrides general it would seem to lean towards Neraphim being planetouched. Feel free to prove me wrong though.

Anyway, that's not the point. We seem to have two situations here, both of which can be fairly broken. In situation A, lesser is a -1 LA template which can only be applied to planetouched, which is what I would support. In situation B, which could very well be right, lesser is a racial varient on all planetouched which allows complete removal of LA. Situation A allows us to get a free +1 LA by playing a lesser glimmerfolk (or arguably neraphim), not a bad trade off. Situation B allows us to play any planetouched without having to deal with LA, no matter how great their base LA would be. Troublesome.

Or, how 'bout they're racial variants that have one lower LA than the typical version.

[Mithril Leaf]

Or, how 'bout they're racial variants that have one lower LA than the typical version.

That's... pretty much the template version.

[Lanaya]

That's... pretty much the template version.

Except it doesn't also let you add LA +1 templates for free, so I'd support that interpretation as being the most reasonable and balanced myself.

[The Dark Fiddler]

That's... pretty much the template version.

As Lanaya pointed out, it is not. Your template version is just a plain old -1 LA, which can lead to mitigating the LA of other things, as you pointed out. My suggestion just lowers the LA of the existing race by one (granted, I didn't say "to a minimum of 0", because I felt that was obvious; sorry).

I feel as though I should mention that I don't have the relevant book, and I'm just going off of what's reasonable rules-wise. It very well may be a -1 LA template in the book, by RAW, for all I know.

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you read the handbook? It suggest that lesser planetouched just lowers the racial la from planetouched by one. That is probably a good idea, otherwise Lesser Fey'ri would be REALLY powerful...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6992.0

[Mithril Leaf]

Have you read the handbook? It suggest that lesser planetouched just lowers the racial la from planetouched by one. That is probably a good idea, otherwise Lesser Fey'ri would be REALLY powerful...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6992.0

A vague memory of that is what inspired this question. Especially since even if Neraphim don't count, there is a valid (although Dragon) true planetouched, the Glimmerfolk.