polymorph problems

[Venger]

DISCLAIMER: I am not starting another thread about how it is broken, so, no need to convince me of that.

I cast it in a game and turned into everyone's favorite form (hydra) and helped to kill a boss with its 12 bites.

the next session, the dm said that "extra limbs to not enable the caster to make extra attacks" so that since I only get 2 attacks from my BA, I would have only been able to have 2 bites, not 12.

I tried to explain to him that it does not work that way and that it is referring to me not getting the monster's BA. if I turn into a bear and get bite/claw/claw, I get to use all of them as a full attack instead of having my normal allotment of iteratives

I was unable to figure out which specific rules to point him towards to explain what I meant, since natural attacks are kind of confusing. could anyone help me with this? am I incorrect?

I have enough BA for 2 attacks with a full attack. I polymorph into a bear. now I've got bite/claw/claw. a full attack can be an attack with each natural weapon instead of whatever your iteratives give you.

where are the specific rules to point to to explain this? or if I am wrong, which specific rules explain why/how I am wrong so I don't inadvertently teach someone the rules wrong in the future?

[VGLordR2]

You need the Natural Weapon Rules (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_naturalweapon&alpha=N).

[ericgrau]

It is annoyingly unclear on what it means by not allowing "more attacks than normal" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) (polymorph is based on alter self) but the FAQ agrees with you in saying that multiple natural attacks are ok. FWIW if you tried to get 4 arms and attack with 4 weapons that wouldn't work.

You might also notice that you don't get any of the hydra's feats except the racial one (combat reflexes), so your damage is only 1d10+6 per hit. At only 3/4 damage that might have changed things a little.

[Cruiser1]

It is annoyingly unclear on what it means by not allowing "more attacks than normal" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) (polymorph is based on alter self)
Fortunately, the Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) spell itself says the creature "gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form". That overrides the limitations in the lower level spell Alter Self. So, 12 bites if you Polymorph into a 12 headed Hydra, but not if you Alter Self into a Hydra (which would also require you to be playing a magical beast since you can only Alter Self into creatures of your type).

[eggs]

Fortunately, the Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) spell itself says the creature "gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form". That overrides the limitations in the lower level spell Alter Self.
That addresses extraordinary special attacks, but those are different things from the number of natural attacks, which is painfully unclear.

[Keld Denar]

My miniguide. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) It should help.

[Invader]

You keep your own BaB but you get the natural attacks of the creature you change into.

Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons

BaB isn't linked to the number of natural attacks anywhere in the game. Point out the Eagle which as a BaB of +0 but gets 3 attacks (2 talons and a bite) and the triceratops which has a +12 BaB and only gets 1 attack. If that and the SRD doesn't convince him he's wrong then you're probably out of luck.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm

[Urpriest]

That line in the spell is meant to say that you cannot, for example, turn into a Xill and be able to use Multiweapon Fighting. It specifically refers to multiple limbs granting you multiple attacks. The Hydra's heads are not limbs to begin with, since they are heads, but further in general a creature's number of natural attacks is independent of its number of limbs. Number of limbs governs Multiweapon Fighting, while number of attack forms, whether on separate limbs or not, governs multiple natural attacks.