D&D 3.5 Crusader/Knight dilema

[Ieatelves]

Hello fine folks of Giants in the playground!

I've come to you today with a dilema. I am currently taking part in a campaign where the sole playable race are the warforged and it's variants. The party is composed of a Fighter/Scout, a Fighter/SoulEater, a Rogue/articier and lastly a wizard. The main reason behind the whole team sticking together is mainly because our race is slowly driving itself to anihilation and that it needs to find a new source of energy to keep on going.

Now the whole storyline behind all this is fascinating (won't get in details for now) and at the time of character creation I overlooked the other's characters. I always wanted to play a crusader and had been reading on the knight class on the side. Altough the mixing of the two didn't seem optimal, the whole thematic seemed to be fitting for the whole setting. A really -tough- character who can do maneuvres that can heal the rest of the party and so much more. A real team player because on his own, his offence is quite low and his skills are pretty specialised. Now, I've come to use the maneuvres more and more into fights, and the rest of the party (the DM as well) seem to be literally stunned about how much healing I put out. Heck, with the last level I took, I literally hold back on my maneuvres because I see them cringe whenever I use ''White Raven Tactics'' maneuvre. Almost like I have to ''hold back'' to avoid beeing Over powerred. I thought blending a powerfull class like the crusader with a much less versatile one like the knight might help, but so far, I've been getting some really odd stares. And that's not to speak as to when I'll go from: ''I heal you 1d6+5 with crusader strike with and an aditionnal +2 with martial spirit and also giving myself back 3hp with lifegiving crystal'' to ''I heal you 3d6+6 with revitalising stike and an aiditionnal +2 with martial spirit and also giving myself back 3hp with lifegiving crystal'' and that step is only one level away :smalleek:. I really don't know how to approach this anymore, maybe some pointers? Feedbacks and general discution? :)

Here, a resume of my character's current sheet:

Warforged Fighter1 (Racial Variant)/Knight 3/Crusader 3
LN Medium Living Construct
Init +8; Senses Spot -1, Listen -1
Languages Comon
----------------------
Ac 22 (23 with shield block, 24 vs ranged weapon attacks), touch 11, flat-footed 21
Hp 76
Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +4
----------------------
Speed 20ft, Base speed 30ft.
Melee +1 Guisarme +10 (2d4+5, Lesser Crystal of Lifedrinking), Mwk Spiked Armor +11 (1d6+3 Least revelation crystal)
Ranged: Crossbow +8 (1d8)
Base Atk +7; Grp +10
Atk Options Furious counterstrike, Steely resolve 5, Fighting Challenge +1 2/day, Shield Block +1, Bulwark of Defence.
------------------------
Maneuvers and Stances Known (Il 5)
Stances- Iron Guard's Glare (1st), Martial Spirit (1st)
Strikes- Stone Bones (1st), Charging Minotaur (1st), Crusader Strike (1st), Douse the flames (1st), Vanguard Strike (1st),
Boosts- White Raven's Tactics (3rd).
-------------------------
Abilites Str: 16 Dex: 12 Con: 16 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Cha: 13
Feats: Adamantine Body, Mage Slayer, Mounter Combat (B), Improved Initiative.
Skills Diplomacy +10, Intimidate +8, Ride +9, Use Magic Device +6.
Possessons: Combat gear plus +1 adamantine plate body (reflex enchant), +1 buckler, Belt of Healing, Steadfast Boots, Brute Gloves, 1 wand o repair light damage.

[HunterOfJello]

The usual reaction from players to a ToB character when they're playing a traditional martial character is going to be slight disbelief and a general uneasiness. That, or they'll just be angry for a long list of reasons that really don't need to be gotten in to. (They can be found on enough threads on these forums already.)The wizard and souleater should be able to keep up, but rogues, scouts, and fighters can have trouble at doing so.

Your options are as follows:
1. Get others to take levels in ToB classes like the Warblade for the Fighter/Scout PC or the Swordsage for the Rogue/Wizard.
2. Go take levels in something else for a bit until they catch up more. Knight is okay, I don't remember much about it. Marshall could beef up your party pretty well if you do a 2 level dip.
3. Stop taking ToB levels.

~~~

Your crusader is just going to get stronger over time and get more efficient at what he's already doing very well. Things will only get more intense as you get Revitalizing Strike, as you mentioned, and much more intense once you get Thicket of Blades and Divine Surge.

[Mnemnosyne]

Help them be better, would be my response. Offer to help them work on their builds. Martial adepts are easy to multiclass into an existing build, so a few dips here and there can give those weaker characters a lot of nice abilities. Help them understand what to do. But more than anything, make it clear: Non-casters and melee should have nice things too.

If they refuse any aid, I wouldn't go intentionally hamstringing your own build any further than you already have for them. If you're willing and able to help them bring their own characters up to par and they refuse, then I think the problem is on them. If they're sufficiently unhappy with it, ask your DM to allow you to reroll as a cleric, and keep doing what you're doing, only being a fullcaster on top of that.

Some people just can't accept melee having nice things, so if your party is like that, well...do the same stuff, but do it with spells. For some reason, it becomes ok then.

[Ketiara]

Remember that revitalising strike only has a range of 10ft so it's not that easy to toss around, and don't give white raven tactics to yourself (the you are your own alli thing) and keep in mind that it's range is also 10ft.

These things will help limit it's usefullness, and also help the rest of the groupes melee to shine a bit more

[Fouredged Sword]

knight does not multiclass well at all. Consider these alternatives.

Marshal - Great Cha based auras grant you and your allies great abilities. Get the aura that adds your cha to all damage during charge attacks and use white raven abilities to allow allies to charge for free. Alternatively get the cha to flanking damage aura and flank with the rogue.

Paladin - Talk to your DM about living with a soul eater, but paladin works well enough in the first 4-6 levels that multiclassing is possible. Better yet, dip cleric and go into PRC paladin. It will expand your healing abilities to out of combat and provide group buffs to make everyone happy.

Cleric - Buffs and more buffs. Buffs make parties happy. Healing for out of combat, just stick to the vigor line rather than conjuration spells. Domains can open up some nice things, and don't be shy to get DMM for something not game breaking (quicken or extend are nice)

[Gwendol]

I actually urge you to take more knight levels. One level more will give you medium armor mastery which increases your mobility. I'd also suggest taking combat reflexes as soon as you can, possibly even retraing improved initiative. This will make the character more potent offensively.

[Ieatelves]

Thanks for the feedbacks guys, now lessee, the campaign has lots of limitations, so there's lots of options that has to be crossed out. Mainly, no divine spellcasting and no psionnics. So me playing the crusader is mainly by the use of it's proposed adaptation in the ToB book. Now, beeing arealy streched between two classes, I really don't want to start getting into multiclassing XP penalties, so pretty much a well adapted PrC -could- do the job I guess. Just need to find the right one, any ideas folks? I love keeping a full BaB progression and have big tastey hits dices (Only D10s and D12s so far :) ).

Hunter:

Actually, so far the souleater and the scout are out damaging me by a longshot, so that's not the problem. I checked the marshal, and tough it does have it's fair share of goodies, I wouldn't strech out my classes ranged into Xp penalties for it. And as far as the others taking lvls in ToB classes, i could always try my luck at it, but seeing their initial reactions to my character, I don't see that hapenning. As far as thicket of blade, I've got something similar already! Check the knight class out, it's Bulwark of defence has pretty much the same effect, coupled with my high initiative bonus.

Mnem:

I could try at that. So far the scout is the skillmonkey (much needed too!) the souleater is the melee output damage and I'm the tank/healer. The wizard is kinda new to the gimmick so I'm figuring he'll be more of a debilitant like type. Could always see with 'em how to make their character better if they think mine's unreachable in terms of perfomrance (which it's not xP). And yeah, that's a good pointer, thanks it really helps!

Ketiara:

Haha yeah, I saw the loophole in white raven tactics, told my DM right off the bat I wouldn't do that kind of stuff :P

Fouredged:

Well, like I mentionned above, no paladins/priests for meh. Tough the marshal has some good auras, I can't help thinking the Divine Soul's auras are better but that's out of league too. Tough yeah, you've catched pretty well what I'm trying to do with my character :P Altough knight doesn't MC well, it could be worse. I mean, by my current built in the end i'll have 9 knight levels (10 crusader and 1 fighter). That gives me a Dc 14+Cha save test of mettle, fighting challenge +2,call to battle and lastly heavy armor mastery. Could be much much worse don't you think? Lemme know your thoughts on that :)

Gwendol:

Medium armor expertise is useless to me. Beeing a warforged in adamantine plating I'm -always- in heavy armor. I did think of combat reflexes but right now I wanna push the initiative more simply because (in my mind) a good defender will be in the frontline first, limiting the ennemy's choice of targets at the start of the fight. Tough the lvl 9 feat's not planned out yet, I will consider it, thanks! :)

[Gavinfoxx]

Wait, your DM enforces multiclassing XP penalties??

[killianh]

Crusader's initiator level increases by .5 for every other class level you have so if the crusader side is causing problems then you can slow down it's progression by focusing on other classes. Knight of the Chalice would be a good class if you didn't have the no divine stipulation.

There's a no-magic ACF for the paladin in complete warrior, and the prestige paladin from Unearthed arcana. Truth be told though if the other players are giving you looks over the crusader abilities it might be best keeping up with the knight levels and letting the half progression do it's job with your crusader side.

[Krazzman]

Wait... the players look weird at your character because you heal for (1d6+7)/2? That's 5.25 HP average.

I for my Part would've dropped the Knight Class. It doesn't give you anything really worthwhile to be a tank. Mettle might be nice but isn't even that great on a single-class Knight. That together with the Warforged Cha-Penality doesn't seem like a great choice.

Furthermore: The Guisarme is a Reachweapon right? Shouldn't you then have the feat Short-Hafted (PHB2) to use it in your first reach?
Your Maneuver: Stone Bones... there might be better choices you could've taken.

Hope this helps... good luck with your character.

[Darrin]

Wait... the players look weird at your character because you heal for (1d6+7)/2? That's 5.25 HP average.

Keep in mind it's an all-warforged group, so every PC has the same Conjuration (healing) drawback. My guess is the scarcity and effectiveness of healing was supposed to be part of the campaign theme. So I can imagine a source of nearly unlimited healing that doesn't get halved might raise a few eyebrows.

OP: I agree with the "take more Knight levels" suggestions. I'd take a look at Person_Man's Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429), see if you can get your hands on a Veil of Allure, and focus on making everybody else in the party look good.

[Krazzman]

Keep in mind it's an all-warforged group, so every PC has the same Conjuration (healing) drawback. My guess is the scarcity and effectiveness of healing was supposed to be part of the campaign theme. So I can imagine a source of nearly unlimited healing that doesn't get halved might raise a few eyebrows.

OP: I agree with the "take more Knight levels" suggestions. I'd take a look at Person_Man's Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429), see if you can get your hands on a Veil of Allure, and focus on making everybody else in the party look good.

Why shouldn't it get halved? AFAIR for Warforged there is only the repair-line of spells that work to full effect on them and every other healing for half or am I mistaken in that point. And to heal a single target 5 HP at level 7 every other round where he actually draw that maneuver and 1 every other round shouldn't be that gamebreaking in a low healing campaign.... where he has a wand of Repair.

[Andorax]

At first glance, "no divine casters" looks to me like shorthand for "DM doesn't want the PCs to have access to easy healing...particularly not easy, constant in-combat healing that doesn't even take away from your ability to contribute to the fight.

Honestly, I think the suggestions you've heard about keeping boosting Knight up are pretty good ones. Over time, the non-initiator levels will cause your Crusader abilities to lag...not a lot, but just enough to take some of the edge off of your uber-power.

And keep up with the White Raven stuff. It's the school most suited to helping make others look good as well.

[Darrin]

Why shouldn't it get halved?

Because it's not a Conjuration (healing) effect.

While it may grind against the grain of the spirit of the campaign, sounds like it's a little too late to retcon it now.

[TopCheese]

Because it's not a Conjuration (healing) effect.

While it may grind against the grain of the spirit of the campaign, sounds like it's a little too late to retcon it now.

+1

Crusader healing is more like moral boost to make your adrenaline start pumping. Ok so Warforged don't have that.. Ok replace adrenaline with magic oil stuff?

Actually when I made a Warforged Warblade I had him take a level or so of Crusader for the healing... It was nice to be able to turn up my nose at the cleric and wizard >:D

[Krazzman]

Because it's not a Conjuration (healing) effect.

While it may grind against the grain of the spirit of the campaign, sounds like it's a little too late to retcon it now.

Ok... it might be a translating error as our dm only had the German version of the ECS but afair there stood healing spells and supernatural healing is halved.
If I recollect it right the exact translated term used to describe this trait was something along the line of "All healing received by a Warforged is halved."

Please prove me in this point wrong as I plan on playing a Warforged Crusader myself.

[Darrin]

Ok... it might be a translating error as our dm only had the German version of the ECS but afair there stood healing spells and supernatural healing is halved.
If I recollect it right the exact translated term used to describe this trait was something along the line of "All healing received by a Warforged is halved."

Please prove me in this point wrong as I plan on playing a Warforged Crusader myself.

From the ECS:

"However, spells from the healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effect to a warforged."

Crusader strikes are not from the healing subschool, and the writers of ToB did not identify the Crusader maneuvers/stances that heal as (Su) abilities, as was done with several Deset Wind/Shadow Hand strikes. (Even the unofficial ToB errata project (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=q3hggrupee8fujougpt40pk8p5&topic=335.msg1509#msg1509) has kept them as non-Supernatural... huh.)

Does that violate the spirit of how healing warforged was supposed to work? Probably, but that's best worked out between you and the DM.

[Gwendol]

Knight 9 gives you heavy armor mastery, so there is always that. As for Test of Mettle I'm guessing you don't have the CHA to make it matter much, but with magic and the Ability Focus feat you can pump up the DC a little. It's a unique ability, and if you can work with the DM to make it potent enough to work on mobs it is quite cool.

[Krazzman]

From the ECS:

"However, spells from the healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effect to a warforged."

Crusader strikes are not from the healing subschool, and the writers of ToB did not identify the Crusader maneuvers/stances that heal as (Su) abilities, as was done with several Deset Wind/Shadow Hand strikes. (Even the unofficial ToB errata project (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=q3hggrupee8fujougpt40pk8p5&topic=335.msg1509#msg1509) has kept them as non-Supernatural... huh.)

Does that violate the spirit of how healing warforged was supposed to work? Probably, but that's best worked out between you and the DM.

Thanks than this seems to be indeed an error with the german translation.. sometimes I hate translations for non-learning issues.

[Psyren]

You're already rocking the boat by being a ToB melee alongside non-ToB melee. I'd be wary of appearing even more uber and probably take the half-heals.

WRT on the other melee is a brilliant idea, they'll love you for it.

[Ieatelves]

WoW! S'more replies! Ok here goes:

Multiclassing/Class choice: Well, getting more knight levels would be a way to fix this if my DM just can't seem to handle it. I'm pretty sure I can work out a way to buffer out the multiclassing penalties if he wishes me to go that way! And I've made these class choices for the setting and for the pure fun of it and so far, it's a pretty cool mix lemme tell you!

Weapons/maneuvres: Yup, guisarme is a reach weapon, but I use my slam/spiked armor for the imediate 5" around my character. And with a pretty steep turn of events, it turns out my armor spikes are gonna become a weapon of legacy. I know it's not optimal and what not but there's a story behind it and I'm sure it's gonna work out well! Oh and I'm keeping stone bones to get a higher lvled maneuvre mostly, never prepare it.

Healing: Well so far, we've played it as "moral healing" as in pumping my allies with mechanical adrenaline to help their bodies shrug off the pain of their injuries and fight on! Tough I'll guage their reactions to the healing from revitalising strike. If they all go completeley insane on me, I guess it'll be half healing :P

Oh and from what I read in the unofficial ToB errata, it seems a lot of players don't like the way crusaders regain their maneuvres. I've been playing it by the book so far and it's been a challenge. Tell me if I got this wrong but the way I play it is that I start the encounter with 2 maneuvres. Start of each of my subsequent turns I draw 1 maneuvres and at the end of the turn from which I draw my -last- maneuvre, I shuffle them all up, and draw 2 new ones on the next turn. If find it kinda "redneck" compared to the warblade's way of getting it's maneuvres back :P

[Mnemnosyne]

Some people really like Crusader maneuver recovery, some don't. I can't speak to personal experience from a player perspective, but I've DM'd with a few Crusader NPC's, and they seem to be ok.

The weird maneuver selection also allows the Idiot Crusader build, who knows less maneuvers than he gets granted, therefore getting them all granted every round. If I remember right, the Idiot Crusader can be built so he can pop a free heal spell every round while also getting one attack.

[Answerer]

The Crusader recovery mechanic is fantastic. It's elegant, balanced, and never keeps you from doing cool things.

The trick is to use a deck of cards to represent your maneuvers. Each turn, draw a card. When you're out of cards, shuffle the deck and draw 3 (or however many you get granted). It's a wonderful system, IMO.

[CodeRed]

Oh and from what I read in the unofficial ToB errata, it seems a lot of players don't like the way crusaders regain their maneuvres. I've been playing it by the book so far and it's been a challenge. Tell me if I got this wrong but the way I play it is that I start the encounter with 2 maneuvres. Start of each of my subsequent turns I draw 1 maneuvres and at the end of the turn from which I draw my -last- maneuvre, I shuffle them all up, and draw 2 new ones on the next turn. If find it kinda "redneck" compared to the warblade's way of getting it's maneuvres back :P

The Crusader's mechanic for refreshing maneuvers is way better than the Warblades. It's infinite and requires no action on your part to get back. You always have a maneuver you can use every turn. The trick is to just not take crappy maneuvers. Make sure every maneuver you pick is useful in more than one situation and you're good to go.

EDIT: Swordsage'd! But yeah, Crusader rules.

[Psyren]

It's fun and all but I'd prefer predictability. Warblade's mechanic is so much more... stylish. (You're literally forced to stop fighting and showboat a bit. How cool is that?)

The fluff for Crusader's mechanic is kind of ridiculous. I know all these martial techniques, but I can only use the ones randomly granted to me? Do I know them or not? Who decides what I can do? Where do the "flashes of divine inspiration" come from? It's just one more example (like Divine Mind) of WotC shoehorning a religious class into a subsystem where that fluff isn't needed.

[Answerer]

It's not even remotely like the Divine Mind. Unlike Psionics, martial combat is a place where religiously-themed characters make sense, seeing as the Paladin is a core class.

[Psyren]

But Crusaders, for all their devotion, don't actually cast spells. Their maneuvers are just like those of the other martial adepts - the result of discipline and training, not granted by an outsider or metaphysical aligned force. They can never be cut off from their abilities the way a paladin can (e.g. by AMF, or a sufficiently unholy/anathemic site.)

I can understand readying maneuvers by praying - it's like meditating to focus your mind - but what I can't understand is having no control over what you can do each round. Not even Paladins have to deal with that, and they do depend on an outside force for their abilities.

[Gwendol]

On combat reflexes vs Imp initiative. I see your point in wanting the chance to act first in order to get into harm's way, but to me at least combat reflexes is more valuable to get early. The ability to deal out more AoO's means you get to act more out of turn, which coupled with the other abilities you have will make you an even better protector of your allies.
Being able to act first more often only allows you to act your turn early, it doesn't allow you to disrupt enemy action.

[Answerer]

But Crusaders, for all their devotion, don't actually cast spells. Their maneuvers are just like those of the other martial adepts - the result of discipline and training, not granted by an outsider or metaphysical aligned force. They can never be cut off from their abilities the way a paladin can (e.g. by AMF, or a sufficiently unholy/anathemic site.)

I can understand readying maneuvers by praying - it's like meditating to focus your mind - but what I can't understand is having no control over what you can do each round. Not even Paladins have to deal with that, and they do depend on an outside force for their abilities.
You're really making it out to be a far more significant thing than it actually is. I've played a lot of Paladins, and I honestly can't remember any time where I was seriously inconvenienced by which maneuvers were granted and which were withheld. You only get 3 withheld max anyway. Extra Granted Maneuver drops that to 2; simply moving on with the combat reduces it further. I dunno, it never once bothered me.

[Psyren]

I'm not bothered by the crunch. Obviously Crusaders are a great class even with randomized maneuvers.

It's just the fluff that gets me. If I know how to do something, and I've taken the time to mentally prepare myself to do that thing, why can I randomly sometimes not do it? What exactly is a "flash of divine insight?" It takes the standard disciplined fluff of initiators and makes Crusaders seem so... haphazard. Or dependent on something outside themselves (the term used is "granted") and I don't know which is worse.

[Answerer]

I think it explicitly makes them depend on an outside force. I think that's what the authors were going for, in fact. In-character, they're not random, so much as apparently what your god thinks is your best option at this moment.

[Psyren]

That's my problem; a martial class shouldn't be beholden to providence like that. Crusaders are zealous, not divine - the two often go hand in hand but still aren't the same thing.

I still maintain the best "divine class" that isn't divine is the Ardent. They're free to contemplate and champion various causes, and even initially access their power from doing so; but not in such a way that they depend on anything outside their own minds/spirits. They contemplate divine concepts but aren't beholden to divine insight or providence to use their abilities.

IMO, making certain DS maneuvers have alignment requirements is all the marriage of fluff and crunch that Crusaders needed.