Sniper rogue, is this possible? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Zefir

2012-08-19, 05:11 AM

Hello,

I wanted to build a range sneak attack rogue and I found one problem:

The Pathfinder rules I know allow the sneak attack as long as the enemy loose his Dex or when flanked. Due to this A ranged sniper (Archtype Rogue) could only use sneak attack on range attacks while in the suprise/first round.

I know some ways he still get's that in long combats like invisibility or such, but that requires either a mage in the groupe with the spell or an Item.

I would like to know if there are other ways to get the effect. In best case without the need of recources a level 10 Rogue can't get. So only gear/Feats etc.

Thanks in advanced.

Twilightwyrm

2012-08-19, 08:38 AM

I'd check out this handbook first:http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0
In particular, I would look at Able Sniper, and Concealed Ambush, along with the Camo Netting mentioned below, which will allow you to basically sit, basically invisible to your enemies, and shoot at them flat-footed round after round, so long as you do everything you can to boost your hide to high levels. Because you can immediately hide yourself after making an attack from hiding, albeit with a -20 penalty, you can pull this off, as Able Sniper gives you a +4 on the check, and Concealed Ambush reduces it to -10, thus with the help of a trusty Elven Cloak, you can shoot and hide with, effectively, only a -1 penalty on the check. The important thing to remember is that, so long as you are technically hidden from your enemies, it doesn't matter how long combat had been going. With this in mind, there are a few more options that are not discussed in the Handbook:
-The Shadow Striker Tactical Feat (from PHB II) allows you to attack someone as a standard action, then make a Hide check (opposed by the enemy's spot check, which shouldn't be that high) to successfully become hidden again. Unless you have camouflage, or Hide in Plain Sight, however, you will need concealment or cover of some sort. Terrain can theoretically work fine for this sort of thing, but that will make you dependent on your enviroment. The feat also has some tactical options for slipping away into a hiding place, or rendering the opponent flat-footed (and thus denied their Dex to AC), but they require you to be threatening your opponent.
-Camouflage Netting (found on pg. 92 of Heroes of Battle) allows you to essentially Hide in Plain Sight before a battle, assuming you have a kind appropriate to the enviroment, but you need to set it up first, and you can't move, even a simple 5 ft. This is better if your party plans to set an ambush. They are relatively light, and more importantly, fairly cheap at only 25gp per different type of net.
-The Improved Initiative feat will just generally help you go first at the start of an encounter, meaning you will be able to attack the opponent while they are still flat-footed.
-Note that you can sneak attack enemies that are flanked by your allies, but not yourself iirc. You won't get the bonus to hit, but you can still sneak attack.
-Finally, Improved Precise Shot allows you to ignore concealment your enemies gain when fighting you. This means that simple shadowy illumination will allow you to continually hide, while easily sneak attacking your enemies.

TopCheese

2012-08-19, 10:12 AM

jaybird

2012-08-19, 11:36 AM

One level of Shadowdancer for Hide In Plain Sight, perhaps? Alternatively, beg your resident crafter for an item of X/day Greater Invisibility.

Another option: Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) archetype, you're here for the level 8 ability Skirmish. You only get 1 SA shot off from it regardless, so make it count. Take Sap Adept (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-adept-combat) and Sap Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-master-combat), then get blunt arrows and a Merciful bow to make them work at range. If 3.5 is open get Deadly Precision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#deadlyPrecision) and Craven (Champions of Ruin?). Deadly Precision + Sap Master is particularly deadly, as Sap Master doubles your SA dice, and Deadly Precision lets you re-roll all 1s you get on SA rolls.

Of course, you COULD combine the previous, minus Scout, with HIPS/Greater Invis for Ludidrizz'dt (:smallcool:) SA on EVERY shot...

Urpriest

2012-08-19, 12:54 PM

1:Read up on the 5th edition playtest material about how the rogue get's to apply SA.

2:Then plead with your DM to use those rules.

3.????

4. Profit

It isn't like it would be a bad homebrew to instil

I had the impression that so far 5e didn't really have hiding rules beyond "make a check, consult with DM". Have they gone into more detail in recent playtest releases?

Andvare

2012-08-19, 02:16 PM

Is this for pathfinder only?

Eldariel

2012-08-19, 02:34 PM

Mundanely, you want Hide in Plain Sight. Consult Lists of Stuff (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff); standouts include 1 level in Shadowdancer, Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) (tho only on level 13) & Dark creature type (tho it has some severe limitations) which can also be acquired through Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis [Tome of Magic].

If only PF material is allowed, your best bet is Shadowdancer really. Other than that, Use Magic Device on Wand of Greater Invisibility or such might work.

Ernir

2012-08-19, 11:29 PM

If you want to actually snipe (that is, Sneak Attack from ambushes at long range), I'd get the Telling Blow feat (from Player's Handbook 2) and a wand of Hunter's Mercy (first level Ranger spell from the Spell Compendium).

Zefir

2012-08-20, 01:32 AM

I don't know it 100% but It was only pathfinder rules .

first thanks guys and just in case I found another way^^.

Rogue Talents: Ki Pool and Ninja trick Vanishing Trick. tgives me an invisibility as well, but maybe I take one of your choices.

jaybird eh... where does did go for range? as far as i understand these feats it's just to deal a lot of nonleathal damage In meele. Oh and Deadly Precision exist in Pathfinder as well with 1 and 2 count as 3

TopCheese

2012-08-20, 07:20 AM

I had the impression that so far 5e didn't really have hiding rules beyond "make a check, consult with DM". Have they gone into more detail in recent playtest releases?

There is a Rogue .. Err Path? That let's you deal Sneak Attack Dmg when two allies are next to the target. I need to read it again but I think it is the Thug variant.

Makes getting sneak attack a ton easier.

Baroncognito

2012-08-20, 07:38 AM

If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.If an opponent is unaware of you, you can make sneak attacks against him or her.

Halfling gets a racial trait "Swift as Shadows" that replaces "Sure-Footed". "Swift as Shadows" reduces the penalty for sniping by 10. If you combine that with the Advanced Rogue talent, you can entirely eliminate the penalty for sniping.

Has no one mentioned "Sniper Goggles" yet?

jaybird

2012-08-20, 08:42 AM

jaybird eh... where does did go for range? as far as i understand these feats it's just to deal a lot of nonleathal damage In meele. Oh and Deadly Precision exist in Pathfinder as well with 1 and 2 count as 3

Only requirement to use Sap Adept and Sap Master is to be doing nonlethal bludgeoning. Blunt arrows take care of the second, and a Merciful bow takes care of the first.

TopCheese

2012-08-20, 06:22 PM

Thug Scheme!

I'm finally home and I was able to actually look it up.. The Thug Scheme allows a Rogue to get Sneak Attack when the target is threatened by two or more allies.

Ask your DM if you can perhaps trade something to gain this? Perhaps 1d6 of sneak attack damage or perhaps a skill or ... Yeah idk..

Perhaps since you are making a sniper you could give up trapfinding or trapsense? *shrug*

Zefir

2012-08-21, 01:03 AM

StreamOfTheSky

2012-08-21, 01:35 AM

The only sure fire way for a rogue in PF to self-generate ranged sneak attacks nvolves a 1 level dip.

You enter Oracle. You take the Waves mystery and pick up the Water Sight revelation. You can now see through fog and mist as if it weren't there. You use your oracle spell slots and/or a wand to cast obscuring mist. Anyone not within 5 ft of you, you now have total concealment from. Which is defined as not being detectable by visual means. In other words, you're invisible.

That's about it, really... Get the sniper goggles so they can't just run 35 ft away from the mist; 5 ft step back (fun fact: since their vision is obscured, they can't 5 ft step after you) if enemies try to engage you in the mist. And sneak attack away.

Oh, also pick up a lot of smoke sticks. The APG has rules for "alchemical power components." Basically, if you use up a smoke stick, that casting of Obscuring Mist cannot be burned away by fire effects, reducing the few ways DM can ruin your trick (gust of wind still works, sadly...dispel magic probably does, too).

I think the build works better w/ Viv. Alchemist, as they can acquire wings (and flight from Beastmorph archetype, too), to just hover within the mist in midair for added safety.

jaybird

2012-08-21, 12:23 PM

@jaybird: you still miss the point. Your talents only allow to deal much ninleathal damage in the case of a flat footed enemy. that means the problem with shooting him after round 1 is still there.

That...is not a problem. Go Halfling, with a 15 PB I could get him up to 18 Dex w/ racial. It's a -20 to your Stealth check opposed with the target's Perception to hide after each shot. Halfling lets you reduce the penalty to -10. Halfling is small, so you get +4 to Stealth. +4 from Dex. +3 from Class Skill. +1 from ranks. You now roll d20+2 against their Perception at level 1 to stay hidden after each shot, denying Dex to AC and therefore getting SA.

As long as you can find cover, you're good. Take the Eldritch Heritage line for Shadow to get HIPS at level 9 or 11. Now you don't even worry about cover.

TopCheese

2012-08-21, 01:26 PM

@jaybird: you still miss the point. Your talents only allow to deal much ninleathal damage in the case of a flat footed enemy. that means the problem with shooting him after round 1 is still there.

I asked ym DM about the recources and he got me this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/home

Sniper Goggles only increase the range. The Sniper Archtype does simular so with level 10 or 9 I have 60 feet. More than enougth in my opinion.

Could you link to the Thug Scheme?

5th edition playtest.

I wouldn't count on the DM allowing it unless the DM is very flexible.. Which my groups are known to be. We actually played a 3.5 game with 4th edition melee... It worked for the most part haha fun times.

There was also the time a wizard from 2e played in a 3.5 game.. Now that was..Odd... He died upon resurection... Man do I miss system shock rolls.

Anyways.. If I was DMing I would allow a ranged sneak attack type... Perhaps trade melee sneak attack for ranged sneak attack.. As a player of mine suggested, have a rogue not be able to sneak attack with a melee weapon since they never trained that way, but he did train to shoot + sneak attack. I'll let you know how it works once we play again this weekend (3.5 game with some houserules... No interedition stuff haha).

Sturmcrow

2012-08-21, 01:47 PM

The goggles for increased range might be good because there should be a penalty to their Spot based on distance in certain types of terrain.

Zefir

2012-08-25, 08:02 AM

The goggles aren't so much needed sniper archtye makes the same and the googles just waste gold since I don't have the range it would offer me.

jaybird: You know that the Eldritch Heritage only gives you the level 1 ability so I need to be level 9 sourcerer to get what you mean. (Even tought I cna make a 10th level char I won't go 9 level sourcerer to get that)
Also for style reason I play a human.

TopCheese: Yeah such things may be possible. Sadly the DM had baned another 3.5 thing so I don't think he would allow it.

olelia

2012-08-25, 08:11 AM

Its feat intensive but you could get pierce magical concealment and a ring of blink and just auto sneak attack on everything, assuming they don't have true seeing. Crossbow sniper would also let you sneak attack out to 60ft.

robertbevan

2012-08-25, 08:25 AM

i had the same problem with a rogue i made in 3.5. i just took for granted i'd be able to make consecutive ranged sneak attacks because... well, because why wouldn't you be able to?

but then i looked at the rules when the game was already underway, and found that i was unable to fight like i wanted to. my character ended up being pretty useless.

i think it sucks that you can't flank with a ranged weapon, and i can't think of any rational for it. i mean think about it... you're in the heat of battle. there's a guy on one side of you trying to cut you in half with an ax, and then from out of nowhere you find you've got an arrow in your neck. sure, maybe you've got a vague idea of what direction it came from, but even if you can pinpoint exactly where the shooter was, how does that make you unthreatened by him, just able to wave him off as nothing?

jaybird

2012-08-25, 08:49 AM

jaybird: You know that the Eldritch Heritage only gives you the level 1 ability so I need to be level 9 sourcerer to get what you mean. (Even tought I cna make a 10th level char I won't go 9 level sourcerer to get that)
Also for style reason I play a human.

Improved Eldritch Heritage for Shadow Bloodline's level 9 ability. However, that requires character level 11, so...

Ninja 10. As your first Master Trick take Invisible Blade. 1 ki point to Greater Invis for rounds = class level. SA away.

EDIT: By Ninja 10 you should have 2 iteratives. Rapid Shot for a 3rd attack. Spend 1 ki point as Ninja for a 4th shot. If you can make a Stealth check opposed by the target's Perception at a -20 penalty, you get SA on EACH shot.

dantiesilva

2012-08-25, 09:58 AM

Im not sure about how your DM plays but keep in mind far shot. Attach it to a crossbow and you are sniping your opponents from 300ft away. So by the time they get up close and personal for your sneak attack ability to count, and for you to worry about them being able to spot you, they should be on the verge of death. The key to the sniper is range. The longer you can hit them before they can see you is what wins. But when you allow them to see you it should be the last thing they see. A wooden tower shield gives concealment and 50% miss chance. So plop it down in front of you and hide behind it in a tree. 1d0+dex+2d6(if your DM allows expanded psionic handbook for psionic shot) means for 10 turns you can wail on them, and for 2 of them you are adding sneak attack damage. Even without Psinoic shot you are doing anywhere from 1+dex to 10+dex damage for 8 rounds. As long as you can guarantee a hit every single time, you are all set and will win easily enough against a group of up to 5 creatures. After all they need to find where you are first before heading to you.

TopCheese

2012-08-25, 10:08 AM

This is why I love pathfinder it has tons of options for nelee and mundane characters that magic just can't duplicate or outperform...Not at all like 3.5.

What has your DM banned from 3.5?

StreamOfTheSky

2012-08-25, 05:27 PM

This is why I love pathfinder it has tons of options for nelee and mundane characters that magic just can't duplicate or outperform...Not at all like 3.5.

Does blue text mean joking?

Cause in 3.5, a rogue can just get a ring of blinking and ranged SA all day long; in PF they specifically banned that because they wanted ranged rogue to suck....

robertbevan

2012-08-25, 09:33 PM

Does blue text mean joking?

Cause in 3.5, a rogue can just get a ring of blinking and ranged SA all day long; in PF they specifically banned that because they wanted ranged rogue to suck....

why do they want a ranged rogue to suck?

StreamOfTheSky

2012-08-25, 10:15 PM

Because anything other than a dagger rogue tumbling into position for a flanking sneak attack is "cheesy."

Same reason rogue can't toss acid flasks for sneak attack damage anymore.

The Redwolf

2012-08-25, 10:17 PM

Because anything other than a dagger rogue tumbling into position for a flanking sneak attack is "cheesy."

Same reason rogue can't toss acid flasks for sneak attack damage anymore.

The scout archetype fixes that though, doesn't it? If you move a little bit you can sneak attack, so that works right?

robertbevan

2012-08-25, 10:17 PM

Because anything other than a dagger rogue tumbling into position for a flanking sneak attack is "cheesy."

Same reason rogue can't toss acid flasks for sneak attack damage anymore.

i'm having some trouble picking up your tone here... is this sarcasm?

dantiesilva

2012-08-25, 10:19 PM

The Redwolf

2012-08-25, 10:23 PM

But if you move it negates many nonmagical items that make you unseen. for example that camouflage net if you move even 5ft. it no longer works on you until you wait like a turn or so and do a hide check. The object is to not move until you have to, not constantly move.

Right, the scout archetype makes it so instead of sneak attacking from being hidden you get them from moving before you attack. So you can just move some and then do your ranged attack to get the bonus, since it doesn't specify how you have to move other than a distance, like 10 ft or something. This way you don't have to hide.

Mirakk

2012-08-26, 12:28 AM

The problem I see immediately with the nonlethal option being bounced around is that you'll knock them out, in theory....

And then they're prone, giving you a -4 penalty on your followup shot. That's not exactly ideal. The flipside of that though is you'll be getting that flat-footed AC as your to-hit number. On lightly armored targets that's great, but against targets in heavy armor.. not so much.

Personally I'd recommend the feat layout from Twilight Wyrm. I used it myself to great effect in game. It's a fun playstyle, but requires a lot of setup. Otherwise, you can rely on your companions to help set you up. If you don't want to burn a lot of feats on this kind of thing, try making friends with a trip-happy fighter.

StreamOfTheSky

2012-08-26, 01:13 AM

i'm having some trouble picking up your tone here... is this sarcasm?

More snark and bitterness. Sarcasm would require it to not be true. Apparently in the playtest stages for PF, someone demonstrated a competent 3E rogue that won fights by using a ring of blinking and TWF + Rapid Shotting acid flasks to kill things dead. Jason Bulmahn got upset and thought it was cheesy, and...the PF rules changes were born. Please don't ask me to find the thread or anything...navigating paizo's forums is a nightmare. But that is the story, as I have seen claimed.

StreamOfTheSky

2012-08-26, 01:18 AM

The scout archetype fixes that though, doesn't it? If you move a little bit you can sneak attack, so that works right?

A single sneak attack per round is crap. Once in a while, fine. But on average, a ranged rogue should be full attack sneak attacking. Full attacking is the whole point of ranged combat to begin with! And SA damage is not so great as to actually be worth it for one shot rather than rapid shotting. Maybe for rogue, who other than SA has nothing really going for him offensively. But a single shot rogue compared to a Fighter or Ranger w/ Rapid and Manyshot just unloading every single round? He's probably not winning that comparison.

If you can move enough and still full attack, scout works. But PF hasn't been as free w/ publishing extra movement or move as a swift options as 3E was.

The Redwolf

2012-08-26, 08:48 AM

If you can move enough and still full attack, scout works. But PF hasn't been as free w/ publishing extra movement or move as a swift options as 3E was.

See that's what I was figuring, just find a way to move enough and still get your full attack. I believe it's just 10ft required, so if you could find a way to get an extra five foot step or make it a ten foot step that should work. While we're on the subject, anyone know a good way to move ten feet and full attack? This thread is similar to something I had been wondering, so I figure I may as well ask.

StreamOfTheSky

2012-08-26, 09:41 AM

I know a ton of ways to do it in 3E, it's super easy. In PF...they tend to be very limited use/day and from class features, not items you can just keep changing in and out of or class features that can be used practically every encounter.

...Does being mounted work? Your mount can move and with ranged attacks, you can still full attack. Perhaps mounted scout rogue is the answer?

EDIT: Waaaaaaiiit....

"Skirmisher (Ex)
At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.

This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge."

So not only are you waiting till level 8 for your schtick to work (Ninja gets greater invis at 10; Viv. Alchemist gets greater invis at 10; the Shatter Defenses thing comes online at 8), it only will ever buff one attack per turn?! Ok, yeah...screw scout rogue. Maybe as yet another version of melee rogue to combine w/ a Sohei Monk dip (who can get Mounted Skirmisher feat at level 1 and basically mounted pounce things) it could be alright. But not for ranged...

The Redwolf

2012-08-26, 10:29 AM

Oh wow, I never noticed that it only applies to the first attack, that blows.

limejuicepowder

2012-08-26, 10:30 AM

This isn't going to help you do what you want to do, but I would advise scrapping the sniper-rogue idea and go with something that is more supported in 3.5/pathfinder.

I assuming the motivation for this character is the super-long-range sniper seen in movies, picking off and assassinating from hundreds of yards away. Problem? For the sake of not pulling hair out in frustration from character death, characters are a LOT tougher then people are IRL. So unless you plan on fighting mooks all day long, the one or two shot kill just doesn't exist.

Then you have game mechanics working against you. Extending sneak attack (which does rather poor damage anyways) to apply further then 30 ft away is kind of a pain - looking only at the numbers, you'd be better off making a mailman type of build and sniping with orbs/rays (spellwarp sniper would work really well for this actually. Cast your own invisibility, warp a fireball to a ray, throw in some sneak attack, Maximize Blistering and Invisible Spell....now that's a snipe).

dantiesilva

2012-08-26, 11:02 AM

Or you could just use the sneak attack when they get close and one shot just about everything from 300ft away, with farshot, Rapid shot and manyshot. Have splitting as well and you are all set. Key is hoping you have both a high dex and a high intelligence because their is a feat that allows you to in addition of your dex modifier to damage add your intelligence on top of that. By the time anything gets within range of your sneak attack they will be about to be dead or able to be killed with your sneak attack damage.

1d10+int+dex+2d6(psionic shot) per arrow and each one of those arrows deals x2 because they split. If you hit a crit thats x6. At 300ft away, you can take on many things my friend. I had a goup of level 1 commoners able to kill a mature gold dragon in one turn.

limejuicepowder

2012-08-26, 11:16 AM

----- I had a goup of level 1 commoners able to kill a mature gold dragon in one turn.

Screen shot or it didn't happen xD

Seriously though, how? Unless you spent thousands of gold giving an entire village energy bow +5 of splitting and shooting in one mass volley so sheer number of arrows concludes in hits....is that it?

dantiesilva

2012-08-26, 11:23 AM

limejuicepowder

2012-08-26, 03:32 PM

Nope non magical bows. 25 commoners participating in an arrow volley using HoB rules for it.

25d10+50d6+Dex
Hit is AC 15 because of the volley rules. It was a gloris battle. I had 10 kill 8 stone giants. And that I have the play test for on this very site.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252660

That is the link to the ten archers.

And my mistake 6. But it took those 6 all that time to get to them. So making it 8 would be no problem saying the c=CR1 warriors infront of them that have an AC of around 40 something with only 100gp spent besides the masterwork add on, but saying the villagers were all around 200 years old the GM decreed that they could create all this on their own without money.

how on earth are 25 commoners doing 25d10 (!) + 50d6 + dex? I'm guessing the d6's are from a dragonfire inspiration....? and yes they only have to hit AC 15, but anyone in the area gets a ref save. Against DC 15. To negate all damage (this is from complete warrior, page 124).

Edit: also, each creature in the area only takes damage from single arrow, not all of them. Though I can understand changing this if the creature in question fills up more than one square.

jaybird

2012-08-26, 04:01 PM

More snark and bitterness. Sarcasm would require it to not be true. Apparently in the playtest stages for PF, someone demonstrated a competent 3E rogue that won fights by using a ring of blinking and TWF + Rapid Shotting acid flasks to kill things dead. Jason Bulmahn got upset and thought it was cheesy, and...the PF rules changes were born. Please don't ask me to find the thread or anything...navigating paizo's forums is a nightmare. But that is the story, as I have seen claimed.

Except the Ninja now gets Invisibility as a class feature at 2 and Greater Invisibility at 10 (because they're class features disguised as "choices", they're so good). Not ideal, but anyone who wants to play a Rogue really actually wants to play a Ninja, cause that class is pretty badass in Pathfinder.