[3.5/PF] TWF magic user?

[Novawurmson]

Hello, everybody.

My current campaign is nearing its last few months, and I'm already starting to think towards the next. I've been talking with my players about what they would like, and one of them wants to play some kind of TWF magic user.

A few things we're considering:

Inquisitor, Swordsage/Warblade, Magus (unfortunately cannot really TWF, but he still considers it an option), the Cryptic (third party psionic), my (WIP) homebrew Warlock, PF Soulknife and Ranger (but he's playing a Ranger right now, albiet not a TWF one). He'd like it most if he could use a shield. I might be able to get him to look at the PF Paladin as well.

I've already had "the talk" with him about how TWF is unoptimized without good sources of bonus damage and the problems with shields. He'll settle for TWF and some kind of magic, but shields would be his dream, I think.

As far as magic is concerned, he doesn't really want full vancian casting, from what I understand; he just wants "magic" effects that he can stack on top of his TWF.

I'd most like a first-party PF or 3.5 option, but if there's a good homebrew or 3rd party resource, I'll give it at least a look.

What do you think? Is there a good TWF magic user out there?

[Chromascope3D]

I would advise continuing in ranger, dipping in sorcerer, and then Eldritch Knight. With a couple levels of sorcerer, you won't access many of the bloodline abilities, but you will be able to access their spells (with EK levels). He can use transmutation and abjuration to boost his combat abilities, and won't be forced to use Vancian magic.

[eggs]

Mystic Ranger would nail it (casting via Somatic Weaponry, a Quarterstaff or free action abuse with a squire/unseen servant).

Desert Wind-emphasizing Swordsage or Bard could also be easy options.

[jaybird]

Okay, so basically...he wants to TWF with sword and board, is the general impression I'm getting?

Greater Magic Weapon and Greater Mighty Wallop are probably going to be his friends, along with a source of Pounce.

[Novawurmson]

I would advise continuing in ranger, dipping in sorcerer, and then Eldritch Knight.

This is for a future campaign, not his current character. He just is a little hesitant of playing the same class twice.

From my impression talking to him last night, his ideal full round action is: TWF full attack+some kind of magical effect.

[Prime32]

From my impression talking to him last night, his ideal full round action is: TWF full attack+some kind of magical effect.Paladin + Battle Blessing feat (and Sword of the Arcane Order?), or a Duskblade. Desert Wind boosts could also work.

What level does it need to be?

[ericgrau]

I've already had "the talk" with him about how TWF is unoptimized without good sources of bonus damage and the problems with shields.

These are the talks that ruin fun in games by severely limiting player options. Unless you allow high op things like shocktrooper there's not enough difference to worry about it. In some cases TWF and/or shields are better (again, assuming no thousand damage super high op abuse).

The bigger issue I'm noticing is how he's going to get a free hand to cast. A double weapon may solve that. You can hold a double weapon in 1 hand even though you can't attack that way. In particular TWF (or double weapons) combine very well with spell storing on a magic user. The other way is to use a light shield because then the shield hand may hold (but not wield) your main hand weapon while you cast. Light shields also count as light weapons for TWF penalties unlike heavy shields which count as one handed weapons. The rules are unclear what kind of action it is to grab an item in your main hand with your shield hand, but there have been suggestions to make it a free action or a move action. Duskblade also solves the problem by casting through his weapon.

Here's something for a high level budget: Since spell holding staffs are made from masterwork quarterstaffs, you might argue that the same one enchanted as a weapon could also be enchanted to hold spells. Up to you. Because these use the player's caster level and save DC, the extra spells are always spectacular on a caster. Some people fear expendables like the plague but 50 charges rarely runs out. They're even better on fighter-casters because the spell level you can afford is closer to your own, and staffs have no arcane spell failure from armor.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There is a feat in one 3.5 drow sourcebook, which if you hit at least 2 times with a staff (most if not all can be also used as a quarterstaff) you can deliver a spell from the staff as a free action.

Mystic Ranger with SotAO and this feat (Elisav school or something like that) plus a nice offensive staff would work perfectly for this charater. I suggest giving him a custom Runestaff that works on his own spellslot, maybe with a mechanic similar to the Ancestral Relic feat which allows him to upgrade by himself and using his own wealth.

Arcane strike also works; but the effects are less flashy as mechanically it is only extra accuracy and damage; but that is what description is for.

[Eldan]

If you are higher level, he might try Duskblade. Eventually, they can channel a spell into every attack of a full attack, which would probably work quite well with TWF.

[Novawurmson]

Hrm. Good replies, all. This would be for a character starting at level 1-2

[Psyren]

Magus (unfortunately cannot really TWF, but he still considers it an option)



From my impression talking to him last night, his ideal full round action is: TWF full attack+some kind of magical effect.

Erm... this is exactly what Spell Combat does; it simply replaces the off-hand attack with a spell, as part of the same full-round action. Magus is perfect for this concept.

The only potential issue is the lack of a shield, but Magus has plenty of magical buffs to cover the lack (e.g. Shield). Or, if he's dead-set on an actual shield and is willing to wait a bit, he can take the Skirnir archetype, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/skirnir) which can use spell combat while holding one.

[Bosaxon]

Erm... this is exactly what Spell Combat does; it simply replaces the off-hand attack with a spell, as part of the same full-round action. Magus is perfect for this concept.

The only potential issue is the lack of a shield, but Magus has plenty of magical buffs to cover the lack (e.g. Shield). Or, if he's dead-set on an actual shield and is willing to wait a bit, he can take the Skirnir archetype, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/skirnir) which can use spell combat while holding one.

This. TWF gives you a free off-hand attack (feats give you more, but feat tax really isn't worth it imho). Now, via spell combat and spellstrike, you can cast a touch spell, and then use your blade to deliver the attack as a free action, dealing both weapon and spell damage. It's a very good approximation of TWF. I'm doing 4 attacks via this and Hasted Assault at level 10. I decimate compared to everyone except the Druid's tiger and this really Munchkin-y character someone plays every so often.

If you want a shield, consider the spell shield arcana. Sure, you burn your points lasts only until the end of your next round, but it's also likely going to be higher bonus and doesn't interfere with your casting.

[Urpriest]

Just to clarify, does this guy want to TWF and wield a shield in addition, or to TWF with one of the weapons being a shield? There are lots of options dedicated to doing the latter, but the former is kind of explicitly not how shields work in D&D.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Bucklers are a type of shield right? With Improved Buckler defence you can have two weapons and a buckler without problems (technically you can even have two bucklers; but I don't think the AC bonus would stack).

[Novawurmson]

Just to clarify, does this guy want to TWF and wield a shield in addition, or to TWF with one of the weapons being a shield? There are lots of options dedicated to doing the latter, but the former is kind of explicitly not how shields work in D&D.

The latter.

The problem with the Magus is that while, mechanically its just about the same thing as TWF except you don't have to pay for two weapons and a whole slew of feats, he knows in his heart of hearts that he doesn't have two weapons. /eyeroll

[ericgrau]

Somewhere out there in the forums are TWF shield bash builds. Somewhere out there are gish builds. Maybe you could combine them.

[mattie_p]

No shield (other than a buckler) but Daggerspell Mage seems almost tailor made for this (Complete Adventurer p 31).

[Psyren]

My advice is to show him Skirnir, and combine it with Urpriest/ericgrau's suggestions for attacking with your shield. Or even just regular Magus with a Buckler on that arm.

[Prime32]

Magus w/ Multiweapon Fighting perhaps? Triple-wield your weapon, shield and magic.

[Novawurmson]

Daggerspell Maye looks cool; might let him pick up some if its class features through feats. Duskblade looks pretty close to what he was talking about.

[Talya]

as far as TWF casters, don't forget the DFI bard.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Daggerspell Maye looks cool; might let him pick up some if its class features through feats. Duskblade looks pretty close to what he was talking about.

Problem with Duskblade is that they don't get to use TWT in conjunction with spell channing until level 13.

[Novawurmson]

But they do get a "sudden quicken" class feature. I'm planning on homebrewing it a little, so a feat that increases the number of times he can do that a day + the 3.5 Arcane Strike feat might suit his fancy to a "T."

[laeZ1]

No shield (other than a buckler) but Daggerspell Mage seems almost tailor made for this (Complete Adventurer p 31).

I've got a player in my campaign right now who is an elf, rogue/1, wizard/4 and daggerspellmage/10 (unless I'm misremembering my numbers). He's not very twinky (and my campaign is RP heavy), but he can really wreak some havok using night's caress (Spell compendium?) on his daggers. He's got some other good touch spells to put in, but those are his main. His character is primarily a necromancer with a close-range twist.