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Sajiri
2012-08-19, 03:13 PM
Well, not really first, I played in one session about a year ago but its been so long I forgot what little I'd learned so this might as well have been my first. After I found my husband's D&D books 2 years ago and started reading them out of curiosity, I'd been wanting to try ever since then, but finding a group in my area is less than easy. My husband finally decided to set up a game online for me a couple friends (also completely new) and Im somewhat underwhelmed.

The game itself wasnt bad. We all were a bit awkward getting into it at first and had to be walked through what we were doing until we picked up what to do ourselves, which was understandable. The first problem was one of the players (Who had been holding us up for a couple weeks already, by either not showing to work out his character, and then deciding right before we were due to start he didnt want to be an Inquisitor anymore and had the DM create an all new cleric for him), he didnt join in at all, he said one thing only when the DM prompted him he could sense something, and I hinted to jump in and have his character announce that to get involved, by the time we got to our first encounter he'd completely chickened out and the DM had to control his character for the rest of the session. He's a nice guy, but he is very shy. He seems like he isnt interested but anytime we have asked or suggested he not join if he doesnt want to play, he gets incredibly depressed about it. I asked him if he will take part next week and he said he would 'try' but he'll probably just want to watch again. The DM doesnt want to just control his character, and we would be fine with just letting him watch if he doesnt want to play, but he doesnt want his character out of the game. What can we do to get this guy to just get involved?

The next thing is, I'm pretty sure I've already figured out the big 'twist' to the plot already. The DM is my husband, so I know him pretty well. The session ended with his DMPC who'd come into the dungeon as a guide turning on us and stealing an item my character had been carrying (that she had no idea what it was for, just that it was important). When he came out to ask me what I thought was going on, (going by some previous stuff that I knew about him with D&D as well as a few subtle things I wouldnt have noticed without said prior knowledge) I said I think the guy is a changeling, and his reaction pretty much gave it away. When I said in the group afterwards I think I know already whats going on (without intention to say anymore) I was greeted by NO META!!!

Of course, I could be totally wrong, and he could just be leading me on to think that to surprise me later, but suddenly it seems a whole lot less interesting to me when I suspect that. I picked up the game rules pretty easily, but the RP aspect still kind of escapes me. I've read the threads about tips on roleplaying, but how can I go about just avoiding taking advantage of that? My magus has no reason to suspect or know what the guy really is, but then just playing dumb doesnt interest me all that much. How would you avoid meta in general? Aside from the player not getting involved at all, the other two players were really getting into it (namely the drunken female half orc barbarian taking nutshots with her hammer at the traitor), but as much as I want to, I just cant seem to bring myself to get into character as much as them :/

(I apologise if Im rambling or not making sense anywhere in this, I'm prone to do that at 6am in the morning while waiting for the coffee to kick in)

Manly Man
2012-08-19, 04:16 PM
A way to help with the metagaming is to make it be part of your character. This doesn't give you an excuse to do it, but what you can do is make your character be a conspiracy theorist who comes up with the wackiest ideas. All you would have to do is, if you think you've figured out what's happening as a player, take those deductions and twist them. Have your character think that the traitor isn't a changeling, but that he's instead a shapechanged evil dragon who stole the item for the nefarious purpose of becoming a dragon god. The item is only a part of the focus of the ritual to do so, and therefore he'll strike again.

This is but one example of what can be done. Just make it off the wall, and it'll help out with making folks more comfortable about your tendency to think things out as a player.

As for the issue with the one who isn't keen on playing... you can't just push it on him, it'll make it all the less fun, which defeats the purpose of playing it in the first place. Try to convince him through more positive means, like telling him that it's almost like writing a story, but everyone's doing it together. His character will be the one who looks upon things in a positive, yet quiet manner, speaking up when it seems that all is lost and the other characters' faith is broken. His power helps keep everyone going, and with just as much strength of character as the strength of his character. I can't think of much else to help out with that one, since I don't know this fellow personally, but that doesn't mean that I can't at least be of some help. Refrain from trying to force it on him, and he'll likely start to fancy the idea of playing alongside you all. Only time will tell with this one.

eggs
2012-08-19, 04:18 PM
This might sound weird, but it can help to look at the game's "winning conditions" from a metagame perspective:

Characters presumably don't want to get screwed over. They want to get whatever they're after, get home, and reap the spoils. A character succeeds by breezing by complications and achieving their goals easily. This is what the game is about on a small scale.

But as a player, you aren't there to say "and then my character effortlessly caught the badguy, collected the eight-figure bounty and retired to a life of wealth and ease"; you're there to make a fun story - to either see the double-cross play out or to interrupt it with some clever in-character Sherlock Holmes-style induction (EDIT: what Manly Man posted about). All the tactical and in-character game decisions are made within the framework of this larger game of telling a fun story: That's the metagame, and is really the point of most RPGs.

A lot of gameplay might be tied up in little tactical wargames, haggling and die-rolling to make your character succeed, but that's not really the whole game. In the larger metagamey sense, the point is to have a good story and to dink around with the system itself - goals which are often better achieved by letting your characters be hoodwinked or make mistakes.

Sajiri
2012-08-19, 04:30 PM
A way to help with the metagaming is to make it be part of your character. This doesn't give you an excuse to do it, but what you can do is make your character be a conspiracy theorist who comes up with the wackiest ideas.

I suppose that could be an idea, I already had in mind that she is a pretty paranoid person (being that she may be on the run for something she was wrongfully accused of). And as we went on I seemed to be making a ton of knowledge checks constantly, so I started trying to work that in and make her a little eccentric and get excitable about all the new stuff she was discovering. Conspiracy theorist might be a fun addition to her personality o: She'll probably end up thinking the barbarian is out to get her when she starts throwing her around at random things (she's small, and that barb seems to think its fun to give her a headstart on flight paths)

NikitaDarkstar
2012-08-19, 04:32 PM
The player who isn't playing. You didn't say how you play, but it almost sounds like you're using skype or some other voice-chat client, if that's the case he might be like me, simply not comfortable with playing by talking, writing might be better for him. (Some clients do let you do both.) It'll take longer, but if he'll get into playing like that it's totally worth it.

Second, the meta-gaming thing? I'm sorry, but I do understand the "NO META!" reaction there. If you as a player have figured it out, but your character hasn't and the other players and characters hasn't it's kind of rude to spoil it for everyone else. Sure you didn't intend to say anything more, but I would have reacted the same way, "better safe than sorry" and all that.

As for keeping meta knowledge and character knowledge apart I personally don't have an issue doing it so I actually don't have much advice on it other than remind yourself that it's more fun to play the character than play your own knowledge.
But the conspiracy theorist does sound like it could be a fun way to combine the two. :)

Sajiri
2012-08-19, 04:41 PM
The player who isn't playing. You didn't say how you play, but it almost sounds like you're using skype or some other voice-chat client, if that's the case he might be like me, simply not comfortable with playing by talking, writing might be better for him. (Some clients do let you do both.) It'll take longer, but if he'll get into playing like that it's totally worth it.

Second, the meta-gaming thing? I'm sorry, but I do understand the "NO META!" reaction there. If you as a player have figured it out, but your character hasn't and the other players and characters hasn't it's kind of rude to spoil it for everyone else. Sure you didn't intend to say anything more, but I would have reacted the same way, "better safe than sorry" and all that.

As for keeping meta knowledge and character knowledge apart I personally don't have an issue doing it so I actually don't have much advice on it other than remind yourself that it's more fun to play the character than play your own knowledge.
But the conspiracy theorist does sound like it could be a fun way to combine the two. :)

We actually were using text, we discussed early on what would people feel most comfortable with and the player said he didnt want to use voice chat for that reason.

And yeah I understood the no meta comment too. I probably made it sound like I was complaining, but I brought it up because it was more of just a thing that kind of reinforced in my mind I figured it out. I wasnt going to spoil it for anyone else because I know he's been planning this for a long time, and I know none of the other players would be likely to figure it out because they dont have the same personal knowledge that I do, so even before he warned me not to say it, I had no plans to discuss what I thought with anyone else.

Driderman
2012-08-19, 05:03 PM
We actually were using text, we discussed early on what would people feel most comfortable with and the player said he didnt want to use voice chat for that reason.

And yeah I understood the no meta comment too. I probably made it sound like I was complaining, but I brought it up because it was more of just a thing that kind of reinforced in my mind I figured it out. I wasnt going to spoil it for anyone else because I know he's been planning this for a long time, and I know none of the other players would be likely to figure it out because they dont have the same personal knowledge that I do, so even before he warned me not to say it, I had no plans to discuss what I thought with anyone else.

Every story can't be a classic. Just accept that this months plotline might be a bit easy to see through for you and hope the next one will be better. I'm assuming that, since the DM is your husband, that you can have an adult conversation with him if there are things about his DM'ing you think needs to be changed.

Sajiri
2012-08-19, 05:22 PM
Every story can't be a classic. Just accept that this months plotline might be a bit easy to see through for you and hope the next one will be better. I'm assuming that, since the DM is your husband, that you can have an adult conversation with him if there are things about his DM'ing you think needs to be changed.

True. Its not that I think he needed to change anything or that it was easy to see through, I know he's never been a DM before but I thought he did well. It was really just the fact that I knew there was a 3.5 game he was going to be a player in before this where he rolled up a changeling factotum, and that instantly became his new favourite race. The DM for that dropped out last minute so he didnt get to play it but I knew he's been wanting to since. When I bought him the advanced races book a few weeks back the first thing he did was use it to create changeling for PF. At one point I just suddenly remembered how much he wanted to use that changeling, and then started noticing little things, like how one player thought we were being betrayed because he was under control by a necromancer, or that it wasnt really the guy we started with, and was told at the end "no, that was the person you knew as Voard"

Now that I'm somewhat more awake than when I posted this originally, I probably made it come off way more negative than I meant. Really the point was, firstly about the player we want to get inolved, and the fact that Im new to roleplaying (and these games in general) and wanted some advice on avoiding that personal knowledge and still taking part in the game. I see the other two players who are new like me getting right into it. I felt like I picked up the rules alot quicker than them but the roleplaying not so much, they seemed to enjoy it way more (not saying I didnt enjoy it, just they seemed to have more fun than me), and I want to get into the RP part more too.

huttj509
2012-08-19, 05:47 PM
True. Its not that I think he needed to change anything or that it was easy to see through, I know he's never been a DM before but I thought he did well. It was really just the fact that I knew there was a 3.5 game he was going to be a player in before this where he rolled up a changeling factotum, and that instantly became his new favourite race. The DM for that dropped out last minute so he didnt get to play it but I knew he's been wanting to since. When I bought him the advanced races book a few weeks back the first thing he did was use it to create changeling for PF. At one point I just suddenly remembered how much he wanted to use that changeling, and then started noticing little things, like how one player thought we were being betrayed because he was under control by a necromancer, or that it wasnt really the guy we started with, and was told at the end "no, that was the person you knew as Voard"

Now that I'm somewhat more awake than when I posted this originally, I probably made it come off way more negative than I meant. Really the point was, firstly about the player we want to get inolved, and the fact that Im new to roleplaying (and these games in general) and wanted some advice on avoiding that personal knowledge and still taking part in the game. I see the other two players who are new like me getting right into it. I felt like I picked up the rules alot quicker than them but the roleplaying not so much, they seemed to enjoy it way more (not saying I didnt enjoy it, just they seemed to have more fun than me), and I want to get into the RP part more too.

One thing to recognize is that GMing can be HARD. If your hubby is aware of this, be may feel anxious about the story or twist flopping and being boring for everyone. You caught on due to your prior knowledge and seeing his reaction, and he really doesn't want to have the plot spoiled for the other players in the same manner you now feel it may be spoiled for you. That might provide some context for the NO META reaction.

In terms of mitigating your own spoiling, you might think of it like watching a movie where you spot the twist early on. At that point, the fun is no longer in the surprise of the twist, but in watching the characters slowly realize what you already had determined, and seeing how the situation plays out. Some movies might be designed around this (dramatic irony, I believe is a close term).

So now, in the game, you might not be surprised. But your character still can be. Since you're aware of the plot direction, you've shifted from a participant in the story (where you are as surprised as your character), to a co-writer of the story. You might not have the control over the world your hubby has, but you have complete control over your character's reactions. She probably wants the item back, regardless. She may not know anything about changelings, so while the character may be wary/paranoid, focus on that the paranoia is due to her past, NOT the suspicion of someone being the changeling. That emphasis should help convince the Hubby that you're not just reacting to your metagame knowledge (basically, if you had never heard of changelings, would your character still be reacting to the NPC that way?).

Edit: I was DMing a campaign, and what I thought would be a surprising twist turned out to be an utterly predicted flop for the entire group. I felt horrible about it. The Queen song reference didn't even get a groan when it was tossed in, it was just bored reaction to the story, which is pretty much the worst non-violent response a DM can get when it's from all the players.

Sajiri
2012-08-19, 06:02 PM
One thing to recognize is that GMing can be HARD. If your hubby is aware of this, be may feel anxious about the story or twist flopping and being boring for everyone. You caught on due to your prior knowledge and seeing his reaction, and he really doesn't want to have the plot spoiled for the other players in the same manner you now feel it may be spoiled for you. That might provide some context for the NO META reaction.

In terms of mitigating your own spoiling, you might think of it like watching a movie where you spot the twist early on. At that point, the fun is no longer in the surprise of the twist, but in watching the characters slowly realize what you already had determined, and seeing how the situation plays out. Some movies might be designed around this (dramatic irony, I believe is a close term).

So now, in the game, you might not be surprised. But your character still can be. Since you're aware of the plot direction, you've shifted from a participant in the story (where you are as surprised as your character), to a co-writer of the story. You might not have the control over the world your hubby has, but you have complete control over your character's reactions. She probably wants the item back, regardless. She may not know anything about changelings, so while the character may be wary/paranoid, focus on that the paranoia is due to her past, NOT the suspicion of someone being the changeling. That emphasis should help convince the Hubby that you're not just reacting to your metagame knowledge (basically, if you had never heard of changelings, would your character still be reacting to the NPC that way?).

Edit: I was DMing a campaign, and what I thought would be a surprising twist turned out to be an utterly predicted flop for the entire group. I felt horrible about it. The Queen song reference didn't even get a groan when it was tossed in, it was just bored reaction to the story, which is pretty much the worst non-violent response a DM can get when it's from all the players.

Thats good advice. I guess now that I think of it more, not everything is spoiled. Even though Im fairly sure this was his way of playing his changeling finally, we still have no idea what the item was. We'd found a jewellery box in a dungeon previously with some kind of anti magic disc we couldnt do anything with, so my character was holding onto it. We teamed up with the dmpc because he was supposedly ordered to go into this dungeon and needed hired help, where it ended in a big empty room with an identical box in the middle. When my character pulled out the box she already had to compare it, we got betrayed and stomped (I really should have seen that coming since he was buffing himself up as we went along, I thought he was trying to do his usual and psych us out) to which he took both discs and...pushed them inside his head. Then to top it off he insulted my magus and hobbled away (thanks to the barb's previously mentioned nutshot). So, we still don't know what the discs are/were I suppose

Gamer Girl
2012-08-19, 07:25 PM
Welcome to role paying! :)


1. Not everyone who wants to play can play. It's just sort of reality. The DM can try and baby sit the player and bring him out of his shell. That does work most of the time, but not always. As a player you can befriend both the player and the character. But if someone does not want to play....they won't.

2. This is not exactly metagaming in my view. You don't know anything. Your just guessing. sure you guesses are based off that you know your husband, but it's still a guess. And it's not a huge leap to think a thief might be a changeling. Why would your character not think a foe is a changeling? Are changelings common in the world? Is it kinda like saying 'I wonder if that used car salesman might try to cheat me?'.

In general, you want to avoid knowing real stuff. Then you need not pretend you don't know it in the first place.

3. Role playing. Well, the first step is to know your character. Take a couple minutes to write her all down. Write down anything and everything about her that you might think off. You should be able to get at least a dozen things. Then you can build off of that. Try to think of at least two questions for each thing you wrote.

For example, your character is small. What does she think of her size? Do people treat her like a kid? Does she have trouble reaching things? If she does, does she ask for help or just stack boxes? And so on.

huttj509
2012-08-19, 10:54 PM
Welcome to role paying! :)


I just need to ask if that was a typo, or a comment on the price of supplement books.