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View Full Version : Occupy Tier 1!!! (Brainstorming -- A Radical Redistribution of Spells)



wayfare
2012-08-20, 01:20 AM
I'm speaking to you, lover of the lower-tier classes. You who have been maligned for your affection, who have been mocked for your stubborn loyalty to classes that are "mechanically inferior", "poorly designed", and "have no abilities spellcasters cannot duplicate".

I know you're out there, I know you're reading this.

Its time for you to stand up, to cast aside the shackles of the tier system and rise up against the Tier 1ers and their Tier 2 lackeys. Its time for our cunning rogues, our brash knights, our undertrained fighters to wash over the top tier and take from them the power that has held you back for so long.

Its time for a Radical Redistribution of Spells.

How Shall We Accomplish This Goal?

What I propose, my brothers and sisters, is that the Tierlotariate abolish spellcasting classes and instead grant all remaining classes the ability to cast spells up to 5th level. This will be a balanced breakdown that actually embodies the meritocracy rather than casting it aside, as so many critics have claimed. To each hero mystic might is apportioned as his deeds allow, but to all heroes mystic power is granted in the potential of equal measure. Such a breakdown would resemble this:

{table=head]Level|Max Spell Level Known
1-4|1st
5-8|2nd
9-12|3rd
13-15|4th
16-20|5th[/table]

Characters would earn a single spell each time they gained a access to a new spell level, with the ability to learn up to 3 spells of each level (4 with a feat).

Spells learned in this way can be cast spontaneously, for they are the result of creativity and expression, a part of the soul of the caster, not the dead fomulae, forced alchemical reactions, and empty prayers of the Top Tier.

Furthermore, these Spells are cast via the expenditure of mana, a source of energy all heroes have access to, enhanced by the most maligned and under-utilized of attributes: Charisma. Characters would receive 1 mana per level they have attained, plus bonus mana equal to their charisma modifier. In this way, those who seek to promote interaction and the triumph that is civilization benefit most from mystic power. Spells will cost 1 mana per spell level.

To further diversify spell selection, individual spells should have linked attributes. To cast a spell you must have at least a +3 modifier in the chosen attribute. In this way, characters will gravitate to spells that fit their characters natural talents, or players will no longer fear building characters with a diversity of talents, to better gain mystic power.

To ensure that spells remain efficacious over time, the Saving Throws for all spells will be (10 + 1/2 character level + Linked attribute modifier).

This Radical Redistribution of Spells is not without consequence. Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes will be cast down, but many of our honorable tier 3 and tier 4 casting brethren will be removed as well. The Bard, the Warmage, the Beguiler -- even the Paladin and Ranger and their kin shall not be subject to the rigors of our uprising, but shall be retired with grace and respect -- you have shown us the proper use of power, and so we build upon your example to establish a new generation of prosperous, responsible spellcasters.

This is not to say that mystic classes shall be eliminated entirely. The Noble Incarnate and his brethren shall rise to the challenge, as shall the Fierce Dragon Fire Adept and Pact Bound Dragon Shaman. The Shadowcaster will remind us of the glories of the magic that once was while standing example of the corruption such power can bring about. The pact-sworn Warlock shall embody spontaneous magic and will keep the noble Blaster tradition alive, and the Binder and Totemist shall recall the glories of polymorphing. We remember our past in the traditions of the future, the balanced and evocative champions who define the "sweet spot" of D&D play.

Why Shall We Foster Change?

We of the Tierlotariate embody the thematic fantasy that makes D&D a cultural monument. A Top Tier spellcaster has All options open to him, and thus has no definition, no flaws to define him. It is weakness that creates Drama -- its is flaw that builds Legend!

Indeed, Our new approach to magic will only futher role-playing opportunities. The young warrior with healing hands is torn between his duty as a knight and his desire to balm life; the young thief who can cast a riot of color for her eyes is a study in contrast, but more successful because of it.

Creating thematic links to spells will only deepen play -- that is the spirit of D&D, and the noblest of goals we in the Tierlotariate can pursue.

Where Shall We Accomplish this Goal?

Not all worlds are so accepting of power, and many paradigms must be shattered for such a massive change to be accepted. However, take Heart, my comrades -- there are worlds where such a change can be integrated into history to create a coherent, sensible backdrop for your adventures!

The Forgotten Realms: While current histories speak differently, it is possible that the Spellplague shattered the weave of Toril into azure shards that have bonded to the living. After a few decades of unpredictable mutations, the natives of Toril are all natural spellcasters.

Birthright: The world of Aebrynis was shattered by the death of the gods, but the power released in that final battle has been spread across a dozen bloodlines. Now, champions who develop their strength can become heroes of legend and tap into the divine power in their blood.

In this setting, it would be most evocative for the spells learned to leave a thematic mark upon the bearer -- lightning crackles whenever an adept who uses electricity is angry, green shoots sprout from the skin of a champion who can control plants, etc.

Or, create your own: There are many worlds out there waiting to be explored. Many empires have sought ultimate power and fallen due to the misuse of that power. Any world that has a magical heritage, or that has suffered a mystic apocalypse is ready to embrace our revolution, as are young worlds who are just learning the refined art of spellcraft.


Why Not Take All the Power?

Certainly, it is possible to allows for all spells to be cast, instead of limiting to level 5. In many games this may be preferable. However, it is my belief that the extremes of power are responsible for the decadence of the spellcasters who came before. The spells above level 5, so many of which called down awesome power, would be best represented as time-consuming ritual or banned entirely. The ability to shape worlds without effort is a dangerous power, always threatening to derail a story or intrude on another players fun. Furthermore, the most potent of the higher level spells are clearly recognizable, and would serve to limit classes rather than diversify options. The degree to which you implement this change should be discussed among your party, with each member given his chance to speak -- our Change reflects equality, let us begin all our efforts in the spirit of egalitarianism!

Thank you for your time, my brethren. Please, join with me in making this change a reality! Add your thoughts to mind and let us create, together, a D&D we can all enjoy!

--Wayfare

A Note for Low Magic Players

For those of you who love "low magic" settings, I say that this change is ideal for you. However, it is fair to note that you could easily create a world where EVERBODY has magic, which strays into the comical for some, and raises spectres of the Tippyverse for others (this is not always or even often a bad thing, but it may be inaccurate, given the restrictions on upper level spells).

As a rider of the change proposed, i would suggest making magic purely the province of legendary heroes -- that is to say, characters with PC classes. Characters who lack PC classes cannot learn magic, and in most worlds, that should account for 95% of the populace.

Vadskye
2012-08-20, 05:19 AM
I created a "natural spellcasting" system with similar goals to this (though significantly less powerful), and actually ran it through its paces some with my players. It was even Charisma-based, too! Great minds...

But based on that experience, I would say: this is a trap. Most character archetypes just don't make sense with spells. It has upsides - everyone can get "cool stuff" - but basically, things get really weird. Some spells were only meant for casters; it's hard to adequately describe how this affects gameplay, but it makes it strange, and totally warps the normal D&D universe. Making Shield freely available destroys shield-users even worse than they already were. Widespread Glitterdust wrecks any stealthy character. And there will be grease - so much grease, grease everywhere! And the charming... oh, the charming of persons.

This is my warning to you, as someone who has done this before: making spellcasting available to everyone is an Admiral Ackbar-sized trap.

If you want to reduce the power of casters relative to other classes, my recommendation is to just reduce the power of casters. If casting is like a nuke, then giving everyone casting just makes the whole world a little glowier, and doesn't necessarily make it a better world to play in.

Eldan
2012-08-20, 07:19 AM
I don't see this, really. First of all, not every character should be able to cast spells. Second, this makes the specialized spellcasting classes all but worthless. They don't have any class features other than spells. And in any world where magic is so commonly available, shouldn't there be specialists?

Requiring a 16 base attribute is also not something I like much. Why? 16 attributes are damn rare. Even the elite array, for strong NPCs, doesn't give a 16. You'll basically be restricting magic to very very few people.

And finally, mere spell level is, well. Spell level is a bad guide for power. Polymorph is much, much more powerful than Meteor Swarm.


I'll say it again: the only real "fix" for magic is changing the worst spell offenders and changing the caster classes. They need two things. Real class features, and more specialization.

wayfare
2012-08-20, 09:34 AM
I don't see this, really. First of all, not every character should be able to cast spells. Second, this makes the specialized spellcasting classes all but worthless. They don't have any class features other than spells. And in any world where magic is so commonly available, shouldn't there be specialists?

Various editions of Final Fantasy beg to differ on that point. As does Fable, Kingdoms of Amalur, the Elder Scrolls series, and a ton of games besides. I don't think there is anything inherent about magic that makes it specific to spellcasters. Wouldn't Rogues love Invisibility? Wouldn't it make sense for rogues to have it? This is a chance to play with character theme, not stifle it! Also, shouldn't the ability to cast spells be a player choice? Heck, if you want to play a character that doesn't cast spell, there could be a flaw the eliminates that ability but gives you some sort of substantial bonus (like a stat bonus to all stats and natural spell resistance you can lower at will).

The specialized classes would have to go (probably tob as well), as stated in the OP. If you want to be a specialist, that would be reflected by feats and perhaps bonuses granted by high ranks in Arcana, Religion, Spellcraft, Nature, and Concentration.

Requiring a 16 base attribute is also not something I like much. Why? 16 attributes are damn rare. Even the elite array, for strong NPCs, doesn't give a 16. You'll basically be restricting magic to very very few people.

But in an elite array, you have at least 1 16+ attribute. If you are building an ubercharger, you are gonna have that mega high strength, and that will limit the spells you can cast. Rhino's Rush -- sure, you get that. Mighty Wallop, yep, you can get that too. But glitterdust is out for you, as is suggestion. Spells ARE restricted in this model, but you are the one doing the restricting.

That said, would the old limitation of Spell Level +10 be more effective?


And finally, mere spell level is, well. Spell level is a bad guide for power. Polymorph is much, much more powerful than Meteor Swarm.

We are agreed here, but I wanted to establish basic ideas before getting into specific "line items". I believe every GM has the right to exercise control over what spells exist in his/her world, and I firmly believe that this authority should be exercised with spells like polymorph/rope trick, etc. That said, some of the powerful spells are less powerful due to the level at which you get them, so I think it would have to be decided on a case by case basis.

I'll say it again: the only real "fix" for magic is changing the worst spell offenders and changing the caster classes. They need two things. Real class features, and more specialization.

That is a noble goal, and to that end I've created more tier 3 casters in the past, with the hope of phasing out the wizard class entirely. This idea was created as a result of thinking about Birthright and the Forgotten Realms, both places where there have been mystic cataclysms that could have spread magic across the world. This solution is not for every world or for every group, but I think it could be fun.

What do you think are the worst offenders in terms of spells (particularly those between level 1-5). I can start getting my ban hammer ready for when I try this out :smallbiggrin:

Eldan
2012-08-20, 09:43 AM
You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that there would be only specialists. Of course rogues love invisibility. But there will be some who are better at using it than others.
Like, say, walking. Most people can walk, but there are still olympic sprinters.

And nope, the elite array has 15 at it's highest attribute. So, by the basic rules, most NPCs won't have magic. Then there's hte problem that you require mental attributes. Many classes really can't afford to spend attributes on yet another required attribute. Look at the poor monk. They already need strength, wisdom, constitution and dexterity.

I have already re-written a fair share of spells, and made some into rituals. That seemed to work quite well, so far.

Zale
2012-08-20, 10:05 AM
So, why play a Wizard or a Sorcerer? Or a Warmage?

They have nothing now.

Eldan
2012-08-20, 10:10 AM
The warmage has sort of something, he can cast in armour and has warmage's edge. So he is still the slightly better caster. The druid has still shapeshift which is really an entire class in itself and hte cleric has turn undead. Really, the only ones to really suffer are Wizard and Sorcerers, who have nothing.

How about, as a solution, to make a specialist magician class? They get more skills to spend on spellcraft and knowledge, perhaps a kind of lore ability like the bard, metamagic bonus feats, and perhaps some kind of small casting bonus. Nothing big like caster level or more slots. Something like the Warmage's edge. Ability in identifying spells. Better counterspells. Things like that.

What about psionics in this system?

Zale
2012-08-20, 10:25 AM
So, for a mage, the best thing to play is something that gets something out of Cha.

Eldan
2012-08-20, 11:05 AM
The bard, probably. He comes out of this effectively unchanged.

General suggestion: instead of giving complicated formulae, how about giving everyone bard spellcasting progression? That would save you the effort of writing tables, and everyone else the suggestion of having to calculate a lot.

Virdish
2012-08-20, 11:27 AM
Magic is as previously stated flawed in many more ways then can be fixed by simple redistribution, this is one of my big points in the creation of my own system. I have started to realize that to fix magic should be a big focus for anyone desiring to rework 3.5. One of the fixes that me and my partner have discussed at length is the abolishment of uber classes such as the wizard and instead moving to specialists though this creates a paradigm shift as well as some problems that are overlooked when discussing magic fixes. One of these problems is that like it or not the balance point of 3.5 relies on access to magic of multiple schools. This would require a rebalance of 3.5 from the ground up.

Baron Corm
2012-08-20, 12:10 PM
Well, this does what it says on the tin. Every spell I'd really want banned is level 8 or 9, so I'm thinking you could allow up to level 7 spells as a default and still be reasonable. Special mention goes to celerity spells, which are kind of silly, and any kind of polymorph or summoning spells, which just need to be looked at carefully to prevent abuse.

I'm not sure how you're handling metamagic, but disallowing it entirely wouldn't be a bad choice.

I like your linked attribute modifier thing, it could be what pulls this all together. I was going to suggest limiting people to 1 or 2 spell schools, until I saw that. I'm interested to see what spells you put where.


So, why play a Wizard or a Sorcerer? Or a Warmage?

They have nothing now.


The bard, probably. He comes out of this effectively unchanged.

He is removing all of these classes from the game, in addition to the beguiler, paladin, ranger, and I'm guessing any other class that gets spells that wasn't specifically named as staying (totemist, binder, shadowcaster, dragonfire adept, others).

lunar2
2012-08-20, 12:25 PM
I've done something similar to this before. magic is weak, but magic is easy.

every creature with a charisma of 10 or higher gets access to a single 0 level SLA, usable at will.

at 5HD, you gain 1 extra 0 level SLA, and 1 1st level SLA. you need a CHA of 11 to use the 1st level SLA.

every 4 HD after that, you gain 1 more SLA of levels you already have access to, and 1 SLA of the next highest level, assuming you have a Cha of 10+ spell level.

to balance this. no class or race gives access to spells. classes or creatures that give access to SLAs either give their own SLAs or give this SLA progression, whichever is better. so a balor keeps its own SLAs, while a dragon gains based on the new rule. it's not perfect, of course. dragons get even more OP, which is actually fine with me. they should be the top dogs, considering they are one of, if not the oldest races.

Yitzi
2012-08-20, 12:32 PM
While you gain balance by making all tiers equal, making every class use the spell mechanic loses a lot of variety. If you are going to go this route, I'd highly advise also changing the basic mechanic for different classes.

For instance, perhaps the traditional casters cast as usual, and psionics use their usual mechanic, but martial classes have self-targeted buffs which are at-will (but only a certain number of spell levels can be active at one time) and a small selection of attacks (direct damage and debuffs) that use a cooldown feature. The skillmonkey classes might then get the spells which would otherwise encroach on their territory anyway (e.g. knock, disguise self, rope trick), which would each be cooldown-based and require an appropriate skill check.

wayfare
2012-08-20, 01:28 PM
I'm not sure how you're handling metamagic, but disallowing it entirely wouldn't be a bad choice.

I like your linked attribute modifier thing, it could be what pulls this all together. I was going to suggest limiting people to 1 or 2 spell schools, until I saw that. I'm interested to see what spells you put where.

He is removing all of these classes from the game, in addition to the beguiler, paladin, ranger, and I'm guessing any other class that gets spells that wasn't specifically named as staying (totemist, binder, shadowcaster, dragonfire adept, others).

Baron Corm hit it on the head. This is a huge shift from what 3.5 looks like, emininating several classes -- even ones that are traditionally considered "under-powered". I think the Paladin, Ranger and Hexblade traditions can be salvaged, but will need to be reimigined to exist in the setting. Classes like the Duskblade can be rendered down to feats that expand melee capabilities. Full casters are shark meat, and any nifty class features should be renddered down as feats.

As for metamagic, I would ban it, but its worth noting that you have a very limited supply of mana. If you tag on a ton of metamagic, you are going to get one or two spells off before you run dry -- probably in the middle of a fight.

I think I'll start statting out core to get folks opinions on which spells shoube be tied to which attributes.

Zale
2012-08-20, 04:04 PM
I've done something similar to this before. magic is weak, but magic is easy.

every creature with a charisma of 10 or higher gets access to a single 0 level SLA, usable at will.

at 5HD, you gain 1 extra 0 level SLA, and 1 1st level SLA. you need a CHA of 11 to use the 1st level SLA.

every 4 HD after that, you gain 1 more SLA of levels you already have access to, and 1 SLA of the next highest level, assuming you have a Cha of 10+ spell level.

to balance this. no class or race gives access to spells. classes or creatures that give access to SLAs either give their own SLAs or give this SLA progression, whichever is better. so a balor keeps its own SLAs, while a dragon gains based on the new rule. it's not perfect, of course. dragons get even more OP, which is actually fine with me. they should be the top dogs, considering they are one of, if not the oldest races.

Interesting.

Probably broken considering some spells, and rather boring after a while I guess.

I wouldn't mind being able to use Charm Person at will. Or Alter Self. Or, eventually, Polymorph.

kanachi
2012-08-20, 04:22 PM
While i admire what your trying to put forward here i would argue that your in many ways not going far enough with your vision.

What you’re essentially proposing is a more freeform version of character generation whereby someone can have access to feats, skills, spells or other aspects necessary to generate the character model they have in mind. This is a noble goal, but I would argue that when you want to craft a different sculpture you should not try to chisel an existing one into a new form... instead find yourself a slab of rock and get to work.

Your basically putting forth an entirely different approach to dnd, your essentially creating a new system. So rather than limit yourself by panel beating an existing system into shape I recommend taking a step back and asking yourself exactly what aspects of the old system you “do” like. Once you have done this your can carry the ethos (not necessarily the mechanic) of those aspects into a new system and generate something far more form fitting with your overarching concept.

In short a homebrew is something you do to meld an existing system to do something in a different way... sort of like tuning an engine in a car or putting on some funky tires. When you have gutted said car of all its major components and replaced them with something different you are no longer homebrewing as I see it. You are entering the realm of game creation.

I wish you the best of luck with your endeavour should you choose to embrace it in its true form and believe you shall have far great success and fun if you do so.

Vadskye
2012-08-20, 04:33 PM
I agree thoroughly with kanachi. What you're talking about isn't really D&D anymore; viable as a system, perhaps, but not D&D. It reminds me more of Baron Corm's generic class system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251994); you want to take most of the D&D system and completely rewrite it, while keeping some of the core elements. Go for it, if that's what you're looking for, and I wish you the best of luck.

wayfare
2012-08-20, 05:31 PM
Thanks, guys!

@Kanachi: I've been working on a "build a character" system for some time now tooled out of psionics. Its sort of like Mutants and Masterminds in that you buy pretty much everything -- stats, skills, saves, defense, hp, energy points, feats (and class features that are retooled as feats). I find a'la carte gaming to be satisfying, particularly when you make a rather nifty build.

That said, I think this can be applied to standard 3.5 with some tweaks...

Classes Allowed Via Guidelines Above

Incarnate
Totemist
Soulborn
Binder
Dragon Shaman
Dragonfire Adept
Warlock
Binder
Shadowcaster
Marshal
Knight
Swashbuckler
Rogue
Fighter
Monk
Ninja (who suddenly becomes much more useful)
Scout
Barbarian
Samurai
Sohei (i dont really know, i have never seen these guys, but they are not casters, right?)

Classes I Would Add

Class-Feature Paladin

Class-Feature Ranger

Polymath (Its the Expert, but with 8+Int skills, bonus feats every other level drawn from the complete feat list. May steal some features from the Bard, like bardic Knowledge)

Arcanist ( Weak BaB class that gives you extra mana and magic themed class features like sudden maximize)

Trunambard (smashe these two together to get a cool "art is power" type class with heavy mystic power).

With these classes, I think you can cover a wide variety of potential combinations and still retain the 3.5 feel.

EDIT:

Alternatively, I have a shiny new update of d20 modern for heroic fantasy settings just setting on my desk at home. This could work really well for that...

kanachi
2012-08-20, 06:07 PM
That said, I think this can be applied to standard 3.5 with some tweaks...

I think the problem is that indeed you “can” do this but what you’re presenting here, once this change is implemented, represents a swift departure from what most people would view as archetypical dnd. This is of course fine and something i have no problem with, i just believe that in practice few people beyond yourself will pick this up and run with it because of this shift.

I believe you would have a better chance of drawing people with you if you moved towards a new system that draws inspiration from dnd and follows through on your vision more completely.

Simply my opinion, but I would warn you against throwing a lot of your own time and effort into something you could better accomplish by other means. It’s kind of like using a knife as a tooth pick, sure you can do, it but trying to sell the idea to other people will ultimately prove problematic.

toapat
2012-08-20, 06:48 PM
4 Things HAVE to be done in order to level the playing field:

1: Rebuilding of Spellcasting: What makes the classes able to drop divine retribution and throw fireballs completely overpowered are not their ability to drop increasingly larger explosions on people, it is the fact that Mind Control, Polymorph, and Gate exploit incredibly powerful things that the players are not supposed to get. the broken spells need to be reworked as to not be completely and rediculously overpowered.

2: A Massive Divorce Lawsuit between Caster Level and Class levels which grant caster ability: This happy family lets powerful offensive abilities be held almost exclusively by spellcasters. this is part of the solution of 5th edition. Pure spellcasters are the only classes who have a 1:1 Linear ratio in 3.5

3: Psionics power modulation to spell slots.

4: The brutal Axemurder of Generalization. As far as the Wizard is concerned, Magic is incredibly simple and mundane, he can just as easily learn how to throw a small fireball by sundering the walls of reality holding back the elemental plane of fire, as learning how to carefully rip appart the minds of gods. There should be NO wizards. If i want to play a Wizard, i should have to spend huge resources and only get upto 3rd level spells, where as if i want to play a Pyromancer, i get to fly, throw fireballs, smelt metal with my bare hands, and cryogenically freeze people.

Zale
2012-08-20, 06:54 PM
4: The brutal Axemurder of Generalization. As far as the Wizard is concerned, Magic is incredibly simple and mundane, he can just as easily learn how to throw a small fireball by sundering the walls of reality holding back the elemental plane of fire, as learning how to carefully rip appart the minds of gods. There should be NO wizards. If i want to play a Wizard, i should have to spend huge resources and only get upto 3rd level spells, where as if i want to play a Pyromancer, i get to fly, throw fireballs, smelt metal with my bare hands, and cryogenically freeze people.

I like being a generalist.

I would be interested in a bunch of limited casters that each draw their spells from as single school, with a few others from other lists/schools that fit the theme.

It makes things more interesting than forty seven ways to set everything on fire.

toapat
2012-08-20, 08:29 PM
I like being a generalist.

I would be interested in a bunch of limited casters that each draw their spells from as single school, with a few others from other lists/schools that fit the theme.

It makes things more interesting than forty seven ways to set everything on fire.

the idea is that there would be ways to create generalist casters, but they have to sacrifice power (alot of it) in order to obtain flexibility. In the example i gave, a Pyromancer learns how to control fire in ways similar to how a Dread Necromancer learns to control positive and negative energy.

8 quick classes using one school each:
Arcane Forger (Abjuration)
Planar Conjurer (Conjuration)
Diviner (Conjuration)
Mesmer (Enchantment)
Elementalist (Evocation+Anything tagged Possitive or Negative energy)
Illusionist (Take a Wild Guess)
Dread Necromancer (Once more with Feeling)
Shaper (Transmutation)

Vadskye
2012-08-21, 11:36 AM
Some of those classes would be nearly unplayable. All hail the Mesmer, for whom every spell is (mind-affecting) and Will Negates!

Might I interest either of you in a system with a drastically reduced generalist spell list, where only specialists gain access to the greatest gifts of each school (and the schools and spells are rebalanced)? I've got one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252764). It's not as extreme as what you seem to want, but I think it would make a good starting point if you wanted to take this idea further.

Yitzi
2012-08-21, 02:28 PM
4 Things HAVE to be done in order to level the playing field:

1: Rebuilding of Spellcasting: What makes the classes able to drop divine retribution and throw fireballs completely overpowered are not their ability to drop increasingly larger explosions on people, it is the fact that Mind Control, Polymorph, and Gate exploit incredibly powerful things that the players are not supposed to get. the broken spells need to be reworked as to not be completely and rediculously overpowered.

Definitely. As long as a level 17 character can gate in (or turn into) a monster more powerful than the entire opposing side, balance is completely impossible.


2: A Massive Divorce Lawsuit between Caster Level and Class levels which grant caster ability: This happy family lets powerful offensive abilities be held almost exclusively by spellcasters. this is part of the solution of 5th edition. Pure spellcasters are the only classes who have a 1:1 Linear ratio in 3.5

I would disagree. Basing caster level on class levels in spellcasting classes is perfectly ok, so long as there are noncasting abilities of similar power+versatility (more power and less versatility for the noncasters is probably the way to go), or that linear ratio is broken in some other way.


3: Psionics power modulation to spell slots.

Also not necessary, although doing neither #2 or #3 requires adjusting noncaster abilities upward.


4: The brutal Axemurder of Generalization. As far as the Wizard is concerned, Magic is incredibly simple and mundane, he can just as easily learn how to throw a small fireball by sundering the walls of reality holding back the elemental plane of fire, as learning how to carefully rip appart the minds of gods. There should be NO wizards. If i want to play a Wizard, i should have to spend huge resources and only get upto 3rd level spells, where as if i want to play a Pyromancer, i get to fly, throw fireballs, smelt metal with my bare hands, and cryogenically freeze people.

I don't think generalization should be that costly, but it definitely needs to cost more than it currently does. A complete group of specialists of a given level should be of equal or greater power to an equal-sized group of generalists of the same level.

Zale
2012-08-21, 02:39 PM
the idea is that there would be ways to create generalist casters, but they have to sacrifice power (alot of it) in order to obtain flexibility. In the example i gave, a Pyromancer learns how to control fire in ways similar to how a Dread Necromancer learns to control positive and negative energy.


If you take to much, they just turn into something that's just stupid.

It's one thing to be a jack of all trades, master of none.

It's another thing to be something so weak a monk would laugh at you.

Third level spells over twenty levels is pretty much exactly that, since you'd probably not let them have any class features.