Optimize a build using only ToB

[digitalguise]

Any other WotC books can be used for feats/races/whatever else.

[Salanmander]

Any other WotC books can be used for feats/races/whatever else.

That's...quite vague. What exactly do you want from this? Are you looking for the most effective damage dealer? The best support character? The most capable ranged character using stances and maneuvers for solely comedic effect?

[TopCheese]

32 pt buy Crusader

Str/Con/Cha based

Neanderthal is a fun race to play with this class.

[Snowbluff]

Eternal Blade is exceptionally strong. Requires Elf, though. IIRC, Helf Elf qualifies you (less dex so you don't take a hit to con), and several other Elven subtypes are better for this.


Idiot Crusaders are really good, but without access to casting (for RKV or JPM), getting the more maneuvers granted you need can be tricky.

[Psyren]

Jade Phoenix Wu Jen?

*has no idea what OP is trying to accomplish*

[ahenobarbi]

Hmm there was this combo to deal infinite damage with shuriken. You took a feat to treat 1 rolled on damage as 2 and another one to re-roll when you had maximum at damage dice. Then you throw shuriken roll d2. If result is 1 treat it as if it was 2. If result was 2 re reroll :smallcool:


Anyways, could you be more specific?

[TopCheese]

I'm sure there must be a race + feats that can eventually get you 9th level wizard casting without taking a single class outside of ToB....

How about Lawful Evil (worship elder evil) Idiot Crusader

Get the evil feats that grants you immunity to mind effecting spells at level 6... This way no one can tell you you aren't an idiot crusader? (Yay bonus feats!).

Let's see... Perhaps be a Goliath for powerful build? Anthropamorphicwhatchacallit dragonborn?

Yeah no clue what the OP wants but I'm now building a Binder/Crusader .. One will be a gestalt and the other will just be something like Binder 8/Crusader 12 haha.

[TopCheese]

Hmm there was this combo to deal infinite damage with shuriken. You took a feat to treat 1 rolled on damage as 2 and another one to re-roll when you had maximum at damage dice. Then you throw shuriken roll d2. If result is 1 treat it as if it was 2. If result was 2 re reroll :smallcool:


Anyways, could you be more specific?

Yuuup

Idiot crusader, though I think you can do it with a type of dagger that does D2 damage...

I need to find that actual build ..

[Psyren]

Actually, that build is called 1d2 Crusader, and it uses Aura of Chaos + Luck Devotion to one-shot enemies via unlimited damage.

Idiot Crusader is a totally separate build. It is named because it has more maneuvers granted than maneuvers known (hence "Idiot"), therefore it will constantly refresh its entire repertoire.

[Gnome Alone]

Hmm there was this combo to deal infinite damage with shuriken. You took a feat to treat 1 rolled on damage as 2 and another one to re-roll when you had maximum at damage dice. Then you throw shuriken roll d2. If result is 1 treat it as if it was 2. If result was 2 re reroll :smallcool:

Someone once pointed out, and I personally love this interpretation, that the problem with that one (aside from "are you freaking serious?") is that it never stops doing damage. You are now required to roll dice until the heat death of the universe.

"Sure, you kill him with your infinite damage... FOREVER."

[Urpriest]

Jade Phoenix Wu Jen?

*has no idea what OP is trying to accomplish*

That's actually just about the only option that doesn't work with the OP, entertainingly enough, if I'm reading it right (I think we're restricted to ToB classes, but unrestricted in absolutely everything else).

[Psyren]

That's actually just about the only option that doesn't work with the OP, entertainingly enough, if I'm reading it right (I think we're restricted to ToB classes, but unrestricted in absolutely everything else).

That's part of what makes the OP so incomprehensible. He says "only ToB" then goes on to say we can use any splats for "whatever else." He didn't actually restrict anything, including classes.


Someone once pointed out, and I personally love this interpretation, that the problem with that one (aside from "are you freaking serious?") is that it never stops doing damage. You are now required to roll dice until the heat death of the universe.

"Sure, you kill him with your infinite damage... FOREVER."

Nah, this was disproven. Aura of Chaos says you "can continue to reroll," which means you can also choose to stop, ending the combo.

[Dusk Eclipse]

No the idiot crusader is the one who has more maneuvers granted than known, so he constantly has access to all his maneuvers, the infinite damage crusader is the D2 crusader (though IIRC there are not mutuallt exclusive).

[TopCheese]

Actually, that build is called 1d2 Crusader, and it uses Aura of Chaos + Luck Devotion to one-shot enemies via unlimited damage.

Idiot Crusader is a totally separate build. It is named because it has more maneuvers granted than maneuvers known (hence "Idiot"), therefore it will constantly refresh its entire repertoire.


Interesting... The build I saw from a friend had both combined.

Not really sure if it was legal (RAW) though.

[Roguenewb]

I've never seen Idiot before, but the D2 guy is awesome. Isn't the aptitude kukri mega-critfisher lightning maces guy use crusader too? That guy is awesome because of all the math discussion that is spawned by the build.

[Gnome Alone]

Nah, this was disproven. Aura of Chaos says you "can continue to reroll," which means you can also choose to stop, ending the combo.

Awww, that's too bad. "I should have known knowing something would never work out!"

[Dusk Eclipse]

I've never seen Idiot before, but the D2 guy is awesome. Isn't the aptitude kukri mega-critfisher lightning maces guy use crusader too? That guy is awesome because of all the math discussion that is spawned by the build.

Nah it has to be a warblade as Crusasders don't get Tiger claw natively, though considering it is a level 1 stance it is only two feats away (but tbat particular combo is quite feat starved)

[Wings of Peace]

Just to clarify about the d2 Crusader. The feat you take isn't Luck Devotion, It's Imbued Healing (Luck Domain version). Any d2 weapon works with the combo so if you're worried about getting disarmed or something a Small sized creature with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat works fine.

If you just want to focus on using your maneuvers for utility rather than offense a Dragonborn (Wings Aspect) Warforged Scout with the Troll-Blooded trait is probably the best bet. Go Crusader 3/Cleric (Luck) 1/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 2/Warforged Juggernaut 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 8/Crusader 3.

Note the numbers in the above^ build are how many levels to take at a time. Not total levels in each class. Casting and Initiating aside the build Falcon Punches for arbitrarily high amounts of damage, gets ex flight, and immunity to lethal damage amongst a few other less important gems.

[navar100]

Crusader 13/Swordsage 2 (unarmed strike variant)/Master of Nine 5 increasing Crusader progression

Crusader 5/Swordsage 2/Crusader 3/Master of Nine 5/Crusader 5

Must have maneuvers: White Raven Tactics, White Raven Hammer, Moment of Perfect Mind, Shadow Jaunt Stride, Shadow Blink, others suit to taste.

Main Stance: Aura of Perfect Order, others suit to taste.

Feats: Master Of Nine Prerequisites, Extra Granted Maneuver, others suit to taste

[Snowbluff]

If you give yourself a decent crit range (read: ninja-to or Disciple of Dispater), you can you Aura of Perfect Order to score an infinite number of hits as a crusader. This is something my bro and I came up with.

We should rename the class "Infinite Loops R Us", between this, d2, and Idiot Crusader, which all rely on silly logic loops.

[Dusk Eclipse]

What is the ninja-to threat range? Iirc AoPO lets you "take 11" so you need quite a large threat range.

[Snowbluff]

What is the ninja-to threat range? Iirc AoPO lets you "take 11" so you need quite a large threat range.


19-29. Then you double it.

Disciple of Dispater can work by RAW with less cheese.

[Dusk Eclipse]

.... while technically* RAW, I doubt any thinking DM would allow that, heck I am sure this is one of the very few cases when we can claim RAI as it is obvious that is a glaring typo (how the hell did the editor missed that?) and it is intended to be 19-20.

DoDispater is also questionable as IIRC it directs to the 3.0 crit stacking rules, which as we know were changed; but one can claim it is an issue of specific thiumping over general rules.

*And by technically I mean squinting really hard completely ignoring common sense an adhering to RAW as holy script. Might be fun to use it on a complwtwly RAW game that uses the rules exactly as written both good bad aspect of it.

[Snowbluff]

.... while technically* RAW, I doubt any thinking DM would allow that, heck I am sure this is one of the very few cases when we can claim RAI as it is obvious that is a glaring typo (how the hell did the editor missed that?) and it is intended to be 19-20.

DoDispater is also questionable as IIRC it directs to the 3.0 crit stacking rules, which as we know were changed; but one can claim it is an issue of specific thiumping over general rules.

*And by technically I mean squinting really hard completely ignoring common sense an adhering to RAW as holy script. Might be fun to use it on a complwtwly RAW game that uses the rules exactly as written both good bad aspect of it.

DoD says specifically what it stacks with (Improved Crit, and not Keen, and as a result, nothing else as of 3.5), rather than 3.0 rules, and was never updated for 3.5, so it is fair game.

My opinion on RAW vs. RAI is that we are not allowed to interpret the rules in anyway, as we are not the DM. "Common sense" is, indeed, not very common, but we should avoid doing anything silly.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Thanks on the clarification on DoDis, i don't have the BoVD so I couldn't check.

I agree on general that in discussion like this we should try to adhere to RAW as closely as possible; but even then, there are limits and the ninja-to crit range in particular strikes me as that. You are spot on the rest though.

[Snowbluff]

Thanks on the clarification on DoDis, i don't have the BoVD so I couldn't check.

I agree on general that in discussion like this we should try to adhere to RAW as closely as possible; but even then, there are limits and the ninja-to crit range in particular strikes me as that. You are spot on the rest though.


The ninja-to is exactly the sort of thing I would classify as silly. :smalltongue:

I actually had a dm allow it, simply due to how good the catch was. I refused, since it broke my personal silliness threshold.

Necropolitan Elf Crusader/Swordsage/Warblade/Barbarian(for pounce)/Cleric(for spellcasting)/RKV/Eternal Blade.

Notable Feats: Staggering Strike, Neraphim Charge, Three Mountains,

Stance: Assassin's

Weapon: A +1 Cursespewing Enervating Wounding (That one enchantment that makes foes flat footed) (Shadow Hand?) Whatever. Had a wand chamber with a Wraithstrike Wand.

Something I built for a challenge for a 1v1 duel. Pretty much win initiative, charge, beat the guy up with stagger, nauseation, curse, negative levels, and con loss. Possible nail him with a maxed out Greater Divine Surge, which would stagger, curse, negative level, cause con loss, etc.

Necro makes me immune to ability damage, letting me mex out greater divine surge for no penalty. I wasn't allow to cast my spells, as it was a melee fight. If you are allow, don't be a necro, use a spell or item for ability damage immunity, and pick up Intimidating Rage and Imperious Command for fear shenanigans.

[Murmaider]

Too bad Aura of Perfect Order is usable only once per round.

[Snowbluff]

Too bad Aura of Perfect Order is usable only once per round.

Yeah, that was the primary caveat for the built. Still, you are statically favored for infinite attacks, AoPO helps.

[Stegyre]

No the idiot crusader is the one who has more maneuvers granted than known, so he constantly has access to all his maneuvers . . .
I must be missing something: by my read (ToB 9-10), he could constantly have access to two of his maneuvers known (or three manuevers at class level 10; four maneuvers at class level 20), assuming that he readied only those two (three/four) maneuvers.

Actually, as I reread the text, any Crusader ought to be able to perform this trick. No special shenanigans necessary: while a 1st level Crusader "can" ready all five of his known maneuvers, nothing requires him to ready that full number.

. . . so just ready as many maneuvers as are granted at the start and you're good to go spamming those two (three/four) all through the combat.

Have I missed something here?

[laeZ1]

Hmm there was this combo to deal infinite damage with shuriken. You took a feat to treat 1 rolled on damage as 2 and another one to re-roll when you had maximum at damage dice. Then you throw shuriken roll d2. If result is 1 treat it as if it was 2. If result was 2 re reroll :smallcool:


My gaming group calls this the unarmed halfling shinryuken.