League of Legends XXXVII: Thread Name Delayed for Further Testing on PBE

[ex cathedra]

League of Legends XXXVII:
Thread Name Delayed for Further Testing on PBE



You can sign up for League of Legends here (http://signup.leagueoflegends.com/en/signup/). It's a free MOBA, based on Defence of the Ancients.

We maintain lists of players, sorted by server. If you are not on these lists and would like to be, please post in the thread with the following information in bold: Server (if you don't know it, it's likely the region you're in, but it's worth checking anyway), your Forum Name and your Summoner Name
If no reply's been made about adding you after a day or two, first check the lists to see if you've been added, if not, feel free to post again or PM me. Any incorrectly formatted posts will probably be overlooked.

NA Server
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
0tt3r | 0tt3r
9mm | cwcriner
Adumbration | Benefice
aethernox | aethernox
Alemil | Alemil
Alter | AlterForm
Anonomuss | OpticalSage
ArcanistSupreme | Arcanist Supreme
Arbitrarity | Arbitrarity
Archangel Yuki | Yocham
assassin89 | nineballcirno
Astrella | Sirroelivan
AtwasAwamps | AtwasAwamps
Aurenthal | Estor
Baron Corm | Baron Corm
Baxter | Thefettered
BinaryMage | BinaryMage
Blueiji | Blueiji
BobVosh | BobVosh -or- VoshBob
Bookboy | Keledrath
Brother Oni | MarineHK4861
Bliss Authority | Companion N00b
Caradryan | Ying Quliang
Castleraven | Castleraven
cdstephens | cdstephens
Chess435 | Chess435
Copacetic | Azbu
Creed | Moarzed
CrnvorousMeece | CarnivorousMeece
Croverus | Croverus
Cute_Riolu | Cute Riolu
Dallas-Dakota | MustacheMan
Dante & Vergil | Raphiezar
Darth Mario | Darth Mario
Daverin | Daverin
Dentrag2 | Callinectes
dgnslyr | GANKERLagann
Dichotomy | Kaellin
Djinn in Tonic | The Djinn
Dogmantra | Dogmantra
douglas | DouglasM
Doxkid | Doxkid
Dragonus45 | Dragonus45
Drager0 | Drager0
Dragor | Supernaturalist
Draken | Draken Frosthand
DrakeRaids | DrakeRaids057
Dralnu | TomerIsHot
dukexx | JacksonHicks
Duos | DapperGuy
efdf | efdf
EifieFlare | EifieFlare
Elagune | Chopstyx
Eldariel | Elealar
EndlessWrath | Andurin
Errandir | Ramses III
EternalMelon | EternalMelon
faith | Ferrovax101
FantomFang | FantomFang
Faulty | FaultyClockwork
Fawkes | Count Fawkes
FeverFox | Alcopop
Flarowon | Kruin Avabruc
kFlechair | Master Zealot
Folytopo | Folytopo
Forrestfire | Forrestfire15
Frankelshtein | McFinkelstein
Fredaintdead | Fredthefighter
Gallus | Anechois
Geigan | Geigan
glemis | glemis
Giant Panda | Le Shirrif
Godskook | Bethor Kookalian
mrcarter11 | Mrcarter11
Gourtox | Gourtox
Gruffard | Gruffard
Hanuman | HanumanXoO
Hatevah | Hatevah
Incomp | Incomp
InyutheBeatIs | Believe Inyu
Istari | IstariK
Ivellius | Ivellius
Jamin | CapZich
JKTrickster | ZenTrickster
Joran | Jorana
KaizoMK | KaizoMK
Kara Kuro | RaptorKitty
Kciemir | Ghostface Ki11ah
Kettle | Kettle747
king.com | kingcom
Kinslayer | HaunterReqiuem
kmchii | kmchii
knightMARE|Sir Wiffleston
Kopaka | CelesHurricane
Kwazey | Kwazey
LegoShrimp | LegoShrimp
LightWraith | TheLightWraith
Lil Shiro | Mizz Mitchell
litewarior | litewarior
Lix Lorn | ElixiaLorn
Lord Generic | Lord Generic
LordShotGun | LordShotGun
LostEnder | LostEnder
Low-Key | TheFuzziestBear
lvl 1 sharnian | StarryEagle
Lyxie | Lyxie
Maeglin_Dubh | Tycho Velius
Makensha | Jarbis
MammonAzrael | MammonAzrael
Manticoran | Manticoran
MasatoHyuga | MasatoHyuga
Master_Rahl22 | Goltoth
master256 | QWERTYSTOP
Math_Mage | Mathmage
Mattarias, King. | Mattarias
Malmagor Andrigal | Madmal
Maxios | Maxios20
McCerberus | MCerberus
Meatshield#236 | Meatshield236
Merellis | Merellis
Mike_the_Mystic | Kraemer
Milskidasith | Milskidasith
Mindfreak586 | Mindfreak586
Mirrinus | Parallaxal
Miscast_Mage | MiscastMage
Moklok | KokoBWare
mrzomby | mrzomby
Mtg_player_zach | MtgPlayerZach
Mushroom Ninja | Mushroom Ninja
Mutant Bunny | WhollySpart
Nadevoc | Xenik
Nanoblack | IwearSILLYhats
Nargan | Naryuk
Necroticplague | Yamidamian
Neoseanster | Neoseanster
NeoVid | NeoVid
neXianXavia | neXianXavia
NotAEvilToaster | NeonPie
oblivion6 | warcrown10
Octopus Jack | Thalric
PersonMan | Nsev
Pie Guy | Qwazes
pilvento | Kandrass
PhoeKun | PhoeKun
Poison Fish | Baron Von Flib
Protecar | Godreig
Protecar | Atk
Psychotic | SquirrelFish
Qaera | Qaera
ragingrage | ragingrage
Raistlin1040 | Sanevale
Rama | Nargus
Raroy | setokaibasmt
RationalGoblin | AtillathePun
Raveypoos | Rhaviewoos
recklessabaddon | recklessabaddon
revolver kobold | A Magic Kobold
Reynard | Duke Reynington
Serpentine | Lady Serpentine
Shades of Gray | PierreAbelard
shadowwalker64 | shadowwalker65
Shadowleaf | Shadowdancing
Shadow Lord | ShadowLordgiantitp
Shadowy | DJPON3Vinyl
ShortOne | LittlePoppy
SidCoolios | Irazel
Silverraptor | Silverraptor
Sircarp | Sircarp
SirSigfried | LibertarianSDR
Slash_712 | Catfud
sofawall | sofawall
St. Viers | St.Viers
Starfols | Starfols
SuperPanda | Lokilar
SweetRein | Riot Reinboom
TalonDemonKing | TalonDemonKing
TechnOkami | Techn0kami
Temotei | Temotei221
Terazul | Allegretto
term1nally s1ck | silverdevilboy
tesla_pasta | generictownsman
Thanatos 51-50 | Thanatos Erebus
The_Fiery_Tower | TheFieryTower
TheGlowingRogue | I Glow In Dark
Themage | SirPelletheGreat
Thethan | Thethan
The Rabbler | Paco H Jones
The Shadowmind | The Shadowmind
The Valiant Turtle | Valiant Turtle
Thrantar | Thrantar
Thrawn183 | Thrawnyboy
throtecutter | throtecutter
toasty | toastymow
Tono | Tono Chou
Treayn | Treayn
tribble | Smallbluedot
Tychris1 | Tychris1
userpay | userpay
Vauron | Vauron
Volatar | The Volatar
wandiya | wandiya
Winterwind | DreamingHeart
Winthur | Seyruun
woodzyowl | Woodzyowl
Zabel_Zarock | Jon Talbain
Zeful | Zeful
ZeltArruin | ZeltArruin
Zemro | Shivic
ZeroNumerous | ZeroNumerous
Zeteni | Zeteni
zolga | TheZolga[/table]

EU Server--West
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Acromos | Crannoch
Adumbration | Adumbration
Anonomuss | Anonomuss
Brother Oni | MarineHK4861
Cheers | Sam vds
Cyborg Mage | Cyborg Mage98
Eldariel | Elealar
Even Human | SlyGuyMcFly
Gauntlet | Isva
HalfDragonCube | giantmudkip
Krazzman | Viskerin
Maxymiuk | Maxymiuk
Mc. Lovin | B1GB1RDB4G3L
Miscast_Mage | MiscastMage
Morph Bark | Morpheus Bob
Nargan | Naryuk
PersonMan | Scarge
Reb46 | Reb46
Reynard | Duke Reyn
Runhidesurvive | Jmack10
Saph | StarSaph
shadowwalker64 | shadowwalker64
Talesin | Fridgecake
term1nally s1ck | Silverdevilboy
That'd_be_me | AntiLocke
TheGeckoKing | Alpharis Omega
Volatar | VolatarUK
Winterwind | DreamingHeart
Ziren | Zirenoid
zolga | MasterZolga[/table]

EU Server--Nordic & East
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Dada | Scrattlebeard
Posca | LDRC
Rockbird | Rockbird[/table]

EU Server--Unspecified
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Abakus | Terpfen
Alemil | Alemil
Ayra | Ayramatao
Darwin | DarwinBeGood
Endoperez | Endoperez
Heliomance | Sidhe de Grian
Kurrel | GrinningOni
littlebottom | Littlebottom
lord_khaine | Lord_khaine
Narazil | Narazil
Narkis | Narkis
Penthar | Malderon
Raviepoos | Skittles Unicorn
Shadowleaf | AncientPharma
Socratov | Mbutu
Voidhawk | Sidhe ne Awk
Zefir | Einerwie
Zombywoof | Zombywoof[/table]

SEA Server
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
abadguy | Smite Thy Enemy[/table]

MUMBLE
Download here! (http://mumble.sourceforge.net/)
Our main means of communication is a mumble server, playing host to a variety of games, including LoL. We're quite a tight knit community, get to know us! Hanging about is a good way to find a game, and if you don't fancy playing something there's always a good chance of a friendly chat. Contact Djinn_in_Tonic via PM if you have a question or want to donate money to keep the server running.
Address: fish.mumbleboxes.com
Port: 36003

Admins: Djinn_in_Tonic (Djinn); Darth Mario; ShortOne (LittlePoppy, Raven); Dogmantra; Nano (Nanoceraptor).

STREAMS
Some of us run streams. You can watch them here.
Legoshrimp (http://www.twitch.tv/legoshrimp)
sofawall (http://www.own3d.tv/sofawall/live/83936)
Silverraptor (http://www.livestream.com/silverrapter?t=527242)
Lyxie (http://www.own3d.tv/lyxie)

GUIDES
Sometimes people write guides and post them in this thread. Other times pro players write guides that people then post in this thread. They often end up here.
General
A General Guide to Support (http://tpesports.net/index.php?site=articles&action=show&articlesID=32), by Math Mage
Guide to General Common Jungler Set-Ups (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12409551&postcount=575), by Mtg_player_zach
Small Guide to Jungle Counterpicking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12379254&postcount=98), by Winthur
General Guide to AD Carries (http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=9234)
Seizing the fourth digit: Playing your way out of Elo Hell. (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=341821) by Math_Mage
Faulty and Raistlin's Quick Build Database: Notes and Stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10942497&postcount=1004) by Faulty and Raistlin
Turning Skill Into Elo: Solo Queue Mindset And Methodology (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1220673) by MathMage
How to be a Good Team Leader (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1374492) by Darth Mario

Specific Champions:
Be warned. These guides are, by and large, outdated. Some (if not much) of the information referenced in these guides has been made obsolete as a result of League's natural patch cycle. If you're looking for information on a champion, you'll have better luck at SoloMid.net (http://solomid.net/guides.php?champ=&sort=2&display=4&x=98&y=9) or LolPro.com (http://LoLPro.com). Alternatively, ask the thread!
Riven 101 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12579737&postcount=204), by Arbitrarity
Highly Artistic Blitzcrank guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12380155&postcount=115), by Dogmantra
Laser Bear Udyr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9657101&postcount=39), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Rammus: Can't touch this (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=258919), by Math_Mage
Twitch (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board
[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10267058&postcount=1448), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Jungle Akali (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10498621&postcount=1358) by Djinn
How to play everyone's favourite Lightning Squirrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10518034&postcount=154) by Dogmantra
Lee Sin (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=636475) by Dralnu
Super Serious Rumble Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11052926&postcount=904) by Dogmantra
OH SNAP Morgana Can Jungle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11295698&postcount=1238) by Dogmantra
Anivia Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11514141&postcount=845) by Eldariel
Tristana (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11938481&postcount=1029) by MathMage
CLASSY VIDEOS FOR CLASSY PEOPLE*
Watching these videos makes you a classier person. Fact.
Jungle Janna! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC6wm9iaNmM)
How to Win Every Game in League of Legends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrsTE1vpoXM)
Panic at the Nexus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7WlCbaLI3I)
Sunfire Cape Sunday (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgjfX6crjrg)
Season One Trailer with Commentary (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/news/season-one-trailer-commentary)
D-Town (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wHp4VJ47v0)
Insanity Mix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGKN1Adzckk&feature=related)
(Truly, Truly) Outrageous (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC7S05vI-BU&feature=related)
I'm just a noob (Ryze Ryze Ryze again) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpr1T-pgaZY&feature=related)
e.o.n Shen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHs_cGUPQ3M&feature=related)
Vendrim-Ionia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry3E2UQMe3k&hd=1)
Pwn ur FACE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf9VSDt0EN4)
Your -Epic- Dreamhack comes true! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKCs1CyBFLg)
Ezreal Custom Skin Spotlight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn-HoAPlg-c)
I Just Got Ganked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpNVN33fj4Y&feature=channel_video_title)
Keep Feeding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaR0frKc4a0)
Champion Rap Battles -- Brolaf vs. Gentleman Cho'Gath (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-r300BVFI)
Combinasion BOOM! League of Legends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwzsXR4sM_Y)
All in the Cards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9d3342IXSs)
No One Ganks Like Garen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD4uiTQsRJg)
Rammus Taunts Everyone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-8Q4PM4PXM)

COMICS AND PICS
It's like your eyes are getting a massage.
LoL Comic (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=48169) by Elagune
Learn Your Alphabet (http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6264/g28376.png) by Dogmantra and Pierreabelard (with a mention in Summoner Showcase #36 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy7JWV-HA28&feature=feedu)!)
Chibi Champions (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=763895) by pika7
Gender Swaps (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=606416) by ShowMeYourMoves
Champion Flowchart Guides (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=608154) by Renekton Bot
Patch Day Comic (http://i.imgur.com/kHtwk.jpg) by DaemianFF
TRAVEL BACK IN TIME: PREVIOUS THREADS
Proof we're not all experiencing collective haullucinations.

League of Legends XXXVI: Thread Now Invisible When You're Not Looking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250948)
League of Legends XXXV: Jayce, the Defender of Soon™ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248760)
League of Legends XXXIV: No Exceptions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246004)
League of Legends XXXIII: Game of Mundo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13142848#post13142848)
League of Legends XXXII: Cupcakes and Kittens and Squirrels. Oh my! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237600)
League of Legends XXXI: I'll Start My Own Team! With TF And Janna! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234631)
League of Legends XXX: Must be Summoner Level 18 to View (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231927)
League of Legends XXIX: Are Nerfs Vayne In This Grave Situation? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229460)
League of Legends XXVIII: Ahri-Vederci, Dodge. Hello, Viktory. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12466887)
League of Legends XXVII: Your Sister's Hotter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225730)
League of Legends XXVI: We've officially jumped the shark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223894)
League of Legends XXV: Who is your Summoner, and what does he do? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221849)
League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219436)
League of Legends XXIII: gunbladeface.jpg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217744)
League of Legends XXII: Teamwork OP, Nerf Nao (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215725)
League of Legends XXI: For The Love Of God Amumu, Stop Crying! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213794)
League of Legends XX: Riot's in the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211977)
League of Legends XIX: 15 million players, and nary a Morgana (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210332)
League of Legends: XVIII: ┻━┻ ︵ （╯°□°）╯ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207908)
League of Legends XVII: Gondor Has No Tank, Gondor Needs No Tank (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205488)
League of Legends XVI: Alas, Poor Game Balance, I Knew Him, Morello (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203298)
League of Legends XV: Robots Are Better Than Trees (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201024)
League of Legends XIV: We're So Broken That We're OP! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198948)
League of Legends XIII: Our Skill is Hard to Deny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196765)
League of Legends XII: It's Worth It Because I Said So In The Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194886)
League of Legends XI: It's Hard to Post Like This in Heels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192695)
League of Legends X: Armored Armadillo Delivers Ambiguous Affirmative (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10646164#post10646164)
League of Legends IX: New Thread Available! Only 6300 IP! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188076)
League of Legends VIII: Gali-Os: They're idolicious! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185516)
League of Legends 7: Truly, Truly Outrageous! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182486)
League of Legends 6: Jannaaaaaaaaaa! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178334)
League of Legends 5: Tall Grass Used Garen! DEMACIAAA! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173805)
League of Legends 4:CAWCAWCAWCAWCAWCAW (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169616)
League of Legends 3: You only need to click once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164008s)
League of Legends Goes Where It Pleases 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158135)
League Of Legends: We post where we please. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139094)

[Forrestfire]

Can you add my summoner name to the list? I'd love to play with fellow playgrounders.

Forrestfire15, NA server

first *ducks*

[Tychris1]

Rengar, the surprise party lion that just won't stop. Yeesh, I'm actually confused by how good his early game seems to be.

[LightWraith]

So, this is a game I've been playing a bit of, and it's kinda fun :smallamused:

I seem to prefer champions with an emphasis on abilities, because I'm apparently terrible at autoattacking. Yep. My few forays into PVP I've been playing primarily support (or surprise mid when we end up not having one), but I've been playing around with Ahri a lot in bot games. I need to get into playing PVP regularly though, so I thought I'd see if there was a thread here... and what do ya know. I've got a decent amount of game knowledge, but my mechanics/positioning need work.

If anyone wants to add me and play around with a level 22 PVP-noob, feel free.

Forum Name: LightWraith
Summoner Name: TheLightWraith
Server: North America

Let's see if I can manage to post in this thread regularly...

[Godskook]

So, this is a game I've been playing a bit of, and it's kinda fun :smallamused:

Hiya, welcome, and look some of us up sometime. The mumble crowd is fairly welcoming, but you're either going to need to make your own introductions or get on mumble to find us, at least typically.

[endoperez]

I've got a decent amount of game knowledge, but my mechanics/positioning need work.

If anyone wants to add me and play around with a level 22 PVP-noob, feel free.

I suggest diving in headfirst and playing PvP even when you don't have voice chat or friends. Support is one of the best roles for learning the skills you lack in PvP, in my opinion. Grab some support who can heal, start mana manipulator + wards, and keep the river warded so that enemies can't gank your carry. Later, get Philosopher's Stone and keep the river + dragon warded. Warding is something you don't really learn against bots.

To learn more map knowledge, carry a Clairvoyance as your summoner spell. Start every game by CV'ing the enemy base a few seconds in, and try to catch enemies as they've bought items and are moving towards lanes. Then, CV blue buff at around 1:50 to see if their jungler is there. Spam CV in their jungle or in river, and try to find their jungler or any champs that have been called missing. You'll probably forget CV a lot, but don't worry. The purpose isn't to be perfect from the start, but being always able to affect the minimap teaches you to always keep an eye on it.

[sonofzeal]

Since my Sivir attempt went smack into a brick wall made of Nasus and Nunu... can anyone suggest alternatives she'd be better against? What's a favorable matchup for her?

[Terribad]

I'm impressed with Rengar's mechanics as well as the new Dark Sphere champion. Really upping the champion design ante with Lee Sin-type mechanics.

I got 20k IP sitting around doing nothing ... thinking of picking up Diana. Based on reading her kit alone, looks like she will be taking the place of my new AP jungler page after Nunu.

Anyone has played more than 2 matches against a Diana? (Lane or jungle doesn't matter) Her clear speed seems ridiculously fast. Rune wise I'm thinking of using AS blues instead of flat AP blues as recommended in the champ spotlight video.

[Godskook]

Since my Sivir attempt went smack into a brick wall made of Nasus and Nunu... can anyone suggest alternatives she'd be better against? What's a favorable matchup for her?

"People without targeted ranged AS debuffs" spring to mind, but spell shield should be able to neuter at least 1 of those for you if you time it right. Personally, I don't know much about Sivir, but two AS-debuff champs would give any AD carry a headache.


Anyone has played more than 2 matches against a Diana? (Lane or jungle doesn't matter) Her clear speed seems ridiculously fast. Rune wise I'm thinking of using AS blues instead of flat AP blues as recommended in the champ spotlight video.

I run her as a jungler right now(still getting used to her playstyle).

Balance-wise, her kit isn't all that bad outside the jungle. Personally, I think her double-ult choice needs to 'cost' more in CDs(up it to say...15 seconds at max rank), and she might need some adjustments to her shield strength. In the jungle, her big problem is that she's stupid-fast(3rd behind Shyvana and Mundo, afaik) for someone with great bases, great ratios, a channel-break+pull+slow, and 2 gapclosers. If I were going to nerf her, I'd hit her passive's base damage a tad and rebalance it so it proc'ed more often.

For runes, don't bother with AS glyphs, they're crummy runes that only show up on junglers who have nothing better to take in glyphs. If you want offensive blues, AP is the way to go, since it not only gives you damage, but durability via your shield. She can likely handle having non-offensive runes, but nothing else is going to be as strong offensively in glyphs as AP is on her. I'm still running stock AS marks, Armor seals and AP elsewhere, but I'm sure you can probably 'choice' at least one of them into something else that's useful, probably quints, cause those have the most jungle-useful options, like MS, SV or something.

Build-wise, her great base values and passive allow for quite a few options, but if you're not building her with a good amount of AP, I feel like you're probably better off playing jungle Cho, who's got better durability, utility and auto-proc(his has a stronger ratio and way better AoE). Not saying build pure glass, but you should at least be building a solid 300+ end-game AP on her to utilize her 'properly', imho.

As for good items for her specifically, most tank and AS-based bruiser items work on her, as does everything AP based, but except for a hat, she wants at least incidental durability in her items. That, combined with her shield, makes resists better than HP on her. I still get Rylai's for utility, but imho, avoid RoA like the plague. Gunblade is interesting, but for how similar she is to Akali, too much of her damage is built into her proc or AoE for Spell Vamp to be a valuable stat.

Also, I'm finding that the biggest concern when running jungle Diana isn't being counterpicked by the enemy, its being counterpicked by your team, since few teams are used to picking into a squishier assassin-type jungler, rather than the usual tanky CC-bot that most junglers are.

Oh, and if you can figure out her red start, its faster, and you're more likely to have red up when you're lvl ~6ish.

[PersonMan]

lol. welcome to the land of zero resistances, zero tenacity, and zero movespeed. get kited, get CC'd, get killed because a massive HP pool is worthless against actual carries without comparable resistances.

lol. Welcome to the land of hitting every Q, low-CC teams and carries that die before they can do anything.

I never claimed it's a good build for even games. It's basically only good for when you are better than the enemy team by a wide margin.

[Terribad]

I run her as a jungler right now(still getting used to her playstyle).

Whats your jungle route and typical build on her? If she's the squishy assassin type, sounds more like a candidate for Abyssal or DFG. Does she need to hit 6 to gank? Granted it sounds powerful but with her E, she seems to be able to gank earlier.

[NineThePuma]

I am incredibly irritated that Rengar's Champion spotlight is out but he himself is still [Unavailable]

[Zen Master]

I am incredibly irritated that Rengar's Champion spotlight is out but he himself is still [Unavailable]

Personally, I can't wait to laugh at how OP he is, and refusing to buy him because I don't support poor design. Or whatever you call it - he's definitely all sorts of cool, and really well suited for another game, or this one in a much reduced version.

Basing the above opinion mainly on the sheer amount of utility they've given him. On top of demonstrably crazy damage.

[NineThePuma]

He doesn't seem to have THAT much utility. Less than Udyr (who can and -will- stun entire teams if he feels like it).

[sonofzeal]

Oh, the people you meet in Solo Queue....


I'm playing Co-Op for First Win, and to try my hand at Janna. Annie disconnected halfway through after going 0/3/2, which I suppose is a mercy since it meant Nunu left on the bot team, and he was obviously more fed than her at the time. We've got a Miss Fortune who stumbled her way to a 4/5/4 and had built... a Last Whisper and Guardian Angel? I dunno. At least there's Kayle rocking it up with a 10/2/1, practically twice the farm of anyone else (including me), and generally kicking arse. For my part I built passive gp10 leading into AP later-game, and went 5/1/7. Not bad for my first try, but it's bots so it's more just a proof of concept.

And then there's Malphite. Summoner spells: Heal and Revive. I was laning with him at the beginning, and his play seemed more or less decent except he had a tendency to go AFK in the bushes while enemies were pushing me straight down to the turret; my first kill was countering one of those pushes and chasing the enemy down, and Malphite only came out of the bushes afterwards. Ugh.

He then proceeds to build four straight Glacial Shrouds, claiming it's "crazy powerful" and denying it when I point out that the passive has that UNIQUE tag, saying he saw his cooldown improve after the second one. He ended up going 1/8/2, still claiming stacking Glacial Shrouds is awesome.

Not sure what to make of that one. Have I been trolled? :smallconfused:

[NineThePuma]

There're idiots. They exist.


How does one Jungle Janna?

[LordShotGun]

Oh, the people you meet in Solo Queue....


I'm playing Co-Op for First Win, and to try my hand at Janna. Annie disconnected halfway through after going 0/3/2, which I suppose is a mercy since it meant Nunu left on the bot team, and he was obviously more fed than her at the time. We've got a Miss Fortune who stumbled her way to a 4/5/4 and had built... a Last Whisper and Guardian Angel? I dunno. At least there's Kayle rocking it up with a 10/2/1, practically twice the farm of anyone else (including me), and generally kicking arse. For my part I built passive gp10 leading into AP later-game, and went 5/1/7. Not bad for my first try, but it's bots so it's more just a proof of concept.

And then there's Malphite. Summoner spells: Heal and Revive. I was laning with him at the beginning, and his play seemed more or less decent except he had a tendency to go AFK in the bushes while enemies were pushing me straight down to the turret; my first kill was countering one of those pushes and chasing the enemy down, and Malphite only came out of the bushes afterwards. Ugh.

He then proceeds to build four straight Glacial Shrouds, claiming it's "crazy powerful" and denying it when I point out that the passive has that UNIQUE tag, saying he saw his cooldown improve after the second one. He ended up going 1/8/2, still claiming stacking Glacial Shrouds is awesome.

Not sure what to make of that one. Have I been trolled? :smallconfused:

We've all had games like that. One co-op game I had a Garen build a manamuna, a singed build a phantom dancer, and a jungle sona.

[sonofzeal]

We've all had games like that. One co-op game I had a Garen build a manamuna, a singed build a phantom dancer, and a jungle sona.
Waitwaitwait.

GAREN

....built a MANAMUNE.



:smalleek:

[Eldariel]

How does one Jungle Janna?

New jungle? However you damn please. Max Gale if you go AP Janna or Shield if you go AD Janna. Whatever Masteries you want (can take 9-11 in defense or just 21/0/9 or sth), whatever Items you want (Wriggle's/Trinity/etc. for AD, AP just gets DFG/Chalice/Deathcap/etc.). Cloth+5 is probably the easiest. Kite monsters as possible, take ranks in Q and E first (treat W as a gank skill), fully charge your Qs, enjoy.

[LordShotGun]

Waitwaitwait.

GAREN

....built a MANAMUNE.



:smalleek:

Apparently s/he thought that since Garen's skills didn't cost mana, then you could build manamuna stacks super fast.

[Recaiden]

So, this is a game I've been playing a bit of, and it's kinda fun :smallamused:

I seem to prefer champions with an emphasis on abilities, because I'm apparently terrible at autoattacking. Yep. My few forays into PVP I've been playing primarily support (or surprise mid when we end up not having one), but I've been playing around with Ahri a lot in bot games. I need to get into playing PVP regularly though, so I thought I'd see if there was a thread here... and what do ya know. I've got a decent amount of game knowledge, but my mechanics/positioning need work.

If anyone wants to add me and play around with a level 22 PVP-noob, feel free.

Forum Name: LightWraith
Summoner Name: TheLightWraith
Server: North America

Let's see if I can manage to post in this thread regularly...

LightWraith! Definitely will be adding and looking for you. :smallbiggrin: How's your last hitting of minions?

[Mattarias, King.]

:smallbiggrin: Woo, new thread! I'll try to be active on this one! :smalltongue:

I play Kayle. Any role. :smalltongue: She's too good.

Also one of the, like, five Karma players out there. :smallamused: She's ridiculously good. Sadly, nobody ever agrees. I've seen a decent amount of dodgers... >_>

[Douglas]

Apparently s/he thought that since Garen's skills didn't cost mana, then you could build manamuna stacks super fast.
And here I was guessing it was someone trying for a hilarious troll build just because it's Co-op vs AI and he thought he was enough better than the bots to get away with it.

[LightWraith]

LightWraith! Definitely will be adding and looking for you. :smallbiggrin: How's your last hitting of minions?

Hey Recaiden! See! I managed to post outside the Meetup Thread! With exclamation points and everything!

I land more last hits than I miss, but I can definitely use some improvement. (Except when I'm support, then I am best last hitter... which is to say I don't).

Thanks for the welcome guys, I'll check out the Mumble server, I think it's the one Voice program I don't have installed. I'm also pretty quiet around new people, so I might not talk much.

I'm pretty decent as a support (according to my other friends who play) and I'm a big fan of wards. All wards, all the time, that's me. 6 stacks of wards! (No.) I prefer to support with someone I'm on voice with though, since bot lane tends to need a bit of coordination to work in my experience. That's why I've been practicing my mid lane play for when I have no friends.

Speaking of which, as I said I've been practicing Ahri with the bots. Anyone have any tips/tricks for the Fox in PVP?

[ex cathedra]

I really, really like playing AP Karma but I dislike how much itemization she requires. Her cooldowns (on both spells and mantras) are too high for an ult-less champ even at 40%, and she kind of needs 40% to function optimally (much more so than most mids). Having to buy DFG or AUG every game is constrictive.

[Talesin]

Also one of the, like, five Karma players out there. :smallamused: She's ridiculously good. Sadly, nobody ever agrees. I've seen a decent amount of dodgers... >_>

What would you say about Karma makes her good? I'm fairly skeptical about her in general but i've played her AP in ARAM a few times and she is very very powerful there. Are you talking about support Karma?

I've also seen her work really well in a Jayce/Karma lane going bot but that was just because they were pretty much ungankable due to light gate and Karma speed boost. I think if we'd had Malph jungling or Amumu this wouldn't have been the case but with the team comp we had, the 3-4 times the jungler attempted to gank we got nowhere near them.

[Laudandus]

Speaking of which, as I said I've been practicing Ahri with the bots. Anyone have any tips/tricks for the Fox in PVP?

Ahri is my actual real main, since I suck at Irelia!

When you play ahri you are a snowballing assassin aoe catching mobility AP carry. You can sacrifice yourself to kill someone, or you can stay back and position safely, it's up to you.

Skill build is R > W > Q > E, with maybe 1 or 2 more points in Q if you're getting pushed too hard. Item build is your choice of Deathfire Grasp first (for killin's) or Abyssal Scepter first (for livin's). At early levels turn on W and autoattack people and you win trades. Get charm at level 1, and when people gank you charm them, try not to use R to escape ganks but if you do harass with the first 2 R's and use the third to get to safety.

Try to hit as many people as possible with every dash.

That's everything that comes to mind right now about Ahri, she's really good though and can win almost every matchup.

[Mattarias, King.]

What would you say about Karma makes her good? I'm fairly skeptical about her in general but i've played her AP in ARAM a few times and she is very very powerful there. Are you talking about support Karma?

I've also seen her work really well in a Jayce/Karma lane going bot but that was just because they were pretty much ungankable due to light gate and Karma speed boost. I think if we'd had Malph jungling or Amumu this wouldn't have been the case but with the team comp we had, the 3-4 times the jungler attempted to gank we got nowhere near them.

I love using her AP. She really can't do much with just aura items, really. NEEDS max CDR, a good amount of AP, and preferably a sizeable health pool. That's why she's much better in a solo lane (She's hilarious up top).

That being said, I do run start off supporty and transition to AP. Preferably supporting a melee or generally short-range champ...

:smallsigh: ...Anyways, sorry, that got away from me. She's fun to me because of her passive, mostly. :smallbiggrin: "Why yes, I AM at 10% HP. Please, dive me!"
...And then you get a double kill. :smallamused:

[NineThePuma]

Riot is being such a tease. =\

Where is Rengar, Riot?! Rellleeeeeaaasssseeee Hiiiiimmmmm,


Seriously, spotlight is out but he's still not available.

[Tychris1]

Speaking of which, as I said I've been practicing Ahri with the bots. Anyone have any tips/tricks for the Fox in PVP?

1. Lane until your level 6
2. Push REALLY hard, chucking your ball at the enemy as much as possible.
3. Now that your overextended wait for the enemy jungler to gank
4. Turn on fox fire, taunt enemy jungler, and proceed to ult around him, chucking your ball in the process
5. Put on shades and continue to hustle in mid lane. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMWiW9z9cVo)

[Lix Lorn]

Personally, I think her double-ult choice needs to 'cost' more in CDs(up it to say...15 seconds at max rank), and she might need some adjustments to her shield strength.
Hissssssss.
Her ult does less damage than anything else she has, and the ten seconds or so it is now is still long enough to be annoying.

No, as someone who played no-one but her for a solid week, and still plays her every other battle, her Q is crazy high base damage. Mana intensive, but... yeah, that's what I'd nerf. Nothing else really strikes me as out of line.

[NineThePuma]

Lixie, don't hiss at people. It makes you look uncivilized.

[Neftren]

Speaking of which, as I said I've been practicing Ahri with the bots. Anyone have any tips/tricks for the Fox in PVP?

I'm hardly the best player here, but Irelia and Ahri are my two main characters (as in, I played Irelia exclusively from Level 6 to 27, and a similar thing with Ahri a few weeks after release).

Anyways, I'm going to differ a bit from what Laudandus has suggested, mostly from what I've learned playing with/against A8000. Ahri focuses heavily on landing your skillshots. I'll start with her weaknesses.

First, anyone with a ranged Silence can basically shut down Ahri. Top counterpick that comes to mind is probably Kassadin, though a good AP Soraka could also do it (rarely seen mid). Silence doesn't seem like that much of a problem, but Ahri's strongest combo is landing a taunt, then unloading everything else in a straight line. If you're silenced before that Taunt hits, then you're back at square one for around ten seconds.

The second issue with Ahri is shared by a number of other skillshot characters (Lux and Morgana suffer with this issue as well): Line of Sight, which indirectly feeds into the "pushing your lane" problem. To combo somebody, you need to taunt them, and to taunt them, you need line of sight, which admittedly is a problem shared by many other AP Carries, but on the other hand, is also a problem not shared by many other AP Carries. You should prepare for the latter scenario (assume you are at a disadvantage for the moment).

This leads into the third problem. Now, this is maybe just my philosophy, but I dislike pushing my lane, mostly because by pushing, I open myself to ganks (yes, I'm aware Ahri is practically ungankable), and my jungler is unable to assist me. I'm also farther away from my Blue Buff, and leaving lane means losing farm, so I may as well minimize that travel time. The alternative is to push so hard that your opponent is unable to farm efficiently because the tower is stealing minion kills, but pushing that hard requires a rather large degree of mana expenditure, which could leave you vulnerable, or at the very least, unable to harass as effectively.

So, where does that leave Ahri? Well, here's the other reason why you want to avoid pushing: your ultimate. It's basically three free flashes. If your opponent is pushed, or at the very least, matching you exactly in the middle of the lane, your opponent has farther to run. Tower diving can be fun, and can be totally worth it, but it can also be a stupid, totally avoidable risk. Three flashes and a taunt make it very difficult to escape Ahri, so find ways to leverage the terrain to your advantage.

Of course, it's basically impossible to finish somebody off in one combo right at level six. So you've probably recognized that there's some degree of harassment going on, but as I pointed out, I like to avoid pushing. Sadly, pushing is an inevitable fact of the game, but you can take steps to avoid over pushing. One of the most important things about this game is Mana Management. You don't want to spam too much, but you don't want to be a lump on a log either. To that end, you need to make every ability count. Here's probably where I disagree the most with Laudandus has suggested.

Max Q, for a number of reasons. It heals you for more (you can hit an entire minion wave with it). It has a much more reliable damage output if you can hit an enemy champion with it. You don't have to get as close to use it, and it won't misfire against a minion. It also does even amounts of damage to every minion (so the net total damage against minions is probably higher, but you aren't outright killing off a minion, which means that minion can still damage your minion). Plus if you're stuck under your tower, you can use it to quickly clear a minion wave. I typically go Q -> E -> Q -> W -> Max Q -> Max W -> Max E. You'll want to put points into your ultimate whenever possible of course.

As for items... well, I'm a member of the Gold/10 crowd, so I typically open Boots + 3 Health Potions, then I rush a Kage's and a Philo Stone. You should have all this by eight or nine minutes in. After that, it's mostly up to you really. If you're ahead, rush a Deathcap. Ahri really needs to pack in the AP to hurt enemies by mid game. If you're running out of mana, you might want to insert a Chalice and turn it into an Athene's later on. Will of the Ancients, Abyssal Scepter or early Catalyst (instead of one of the Gold/10s) into a Rod of Ages if you're fighting early.


A lot of playing Ahri is just part of improving at the game. There are many philosophies in the game, some differ from others. You might come across players who inherently assume they're right (by virtue of better ELO, etc.). Some things do carry over though, for instance: don't place yourself in a position where you're vulnerable to ganks from the jungle, without good reason. Trading kills isn't always the best option, as some characters snowball much harder than others. Overall though, just try to have fun!

[Laudandus]

Anyways, I'm going to differ a bit from what Laudandus has suggested, mostly from what I've learned playing with/against A8000. Ahri focuses heavily on landing your skillshots. I'll start with her weaknesses.

First, anyone with a ranged Silence can basically shut down Ahri. Top counterpick that comes to mind is probably Kassadin, though a good AP Soraka could also do it (rarely seen mid). Silence doesn't seem like that much of a problem, but Ahri's strongest combo is landing a taunt, then unloading everything else in a straight line. If you're silenced before that Taunt hits, then you're back at square one for around ten seconds.

As for items... well, I'm a member of the Gold/10 crowd, so I typically open Boots + 3 Health Potions, then I rush a Kage's and a Philo Stone. You should have all this by eight or nine minutes in. After that, it's mostly up to you really. If you're ahead, rush a Deathcap. Ahri really needs to pack in the AP to hurt enemies by mid game. If you're running out of mana, you might want to insert a Chalice and turn it into an Athene's later on. Will of the Ancients, Abyssal Scepter or early Catalyst (instead of one of the Gold/10s) into a Rod of Ages if you're fighting early.



Though I don't doubt A8000's ability to play Ahri decently, he has one game with her in ranked (he lost) and his elo is only 4 higher than mine, which I don't think compensates for my ~150 more Ahri games than him.

W max is better than Q max. It's counterintuitive for a number of reasons, and when I heard Froggen and Chauster say in a variety of interviews that W max was better I was really skeptical and just didn't listen. I've never heard anyone accept that when they first heard it.

But it's better. I've played both about an equal amount, and all Q does is let you harass in lane. W max lets you all in for around 80-90% of your opponent's health with ignite. You can't all-in with Q, because a key part of Ahri's all-in is leading with ult to close distance, and if you use your ult you can't guarantee charm unless you get to close range. If you get to close range, your charm doesn't last long enough to get both Q hits.

W is also better harass. It's got almost equal effective range (max range Q's cannot be landed with any consistency against equal-skilled opponents). W + auto out-trades almost everything.

I've tried to make the argument for W-max, but I know from experience that it just sounds so -wrong- that no one will agree. The only people who like W max are those who've tried it and learned to make it work, but it's much stronger than Q.

As to gold/10, Ahri's a snowballing assassin-type champion who really shouldn't do it. Gold/10 is better on people who want to defensively farm, like Orianna, Vladimir, or maybe Karthus in some matchups. Ahri doesn't scale all that well with passively farming but excels highly at midgame aggression.

[Neftren]

Though I don't doubt A8000's ability to play Ahri decently, he has one game with her in ranked (he lost) and his elo is only 4 higher than mine, which I don't think compensates for my ~150 more Ahri games than him.

W max is better than Q max. It's counterintuitive for a number of reasons, and when I heard Froggen and Chauster say in a variety of interviews that W max was better I was really skeptical and just didn't listen. I've never heard anyone accept that when they first heard it.

But it's better. I've played both about an equal amount, and all Q does is let you harass in lane. W max lets you all in for around 80-90% of your opponent's health with ignite. You can't all-in with Q, because a key part of Ahri's all-in is leading with ult to close distance, and if you use your ult you can't guarantee charm unless you get to close range. If you get to close range, your charm doesn't last long enough to get both Q hits.

W is also better harass. It's got almost equal effective range (max range Q's cannot be landed with any consistency against equal-skilled opponents). W + auto out-trades almost everything.

I've tried to make the argument for W-max, but I know from experience that it just sounds so -wrong- that no one will agree. The only people who like W max are those who've tried it and learned to make it work, but it's much stronger than Q.

As to gold/10, Ahri's a snowballing assassin-type champion who really shouldn't do it. Gold/10 is better on people who want to defensively farm, like Orianna, Vladimir, or maybe Karthus in some matchups. Ahri doesn't scale all that well with passively farming but excels highly at midgame aggression.

A8000 has been in Asia for the past two months or so (something along those lines anyways). He was 11th on the ladder back in April though, if I remember correctly. One game from 10th on the ladder, but somebody threw the game. He was kinda pissed. Anyways, that's why he hasn't moved up from 2300 ELO.

I'll give W max another try I suppose. I haven't tried it recently, so maybe it's worth another look. As for all-ins, well, I try to avoid those. I'm not a big fan of trading if I can just harass you down to low health and then finish you off with an Ignite and an Ult.

[Joran]

Anyone try an Urgot/Yorick bottom lane? It seems like it'd be certain to piss off anyone trying to lane conventionally.

Thankfully at my skill level, people can't last hit under the tower well.

[ex cathedra]

I love using her AP. She really can't do much with just aura items, really. NEEDS max CDR, a good amount of AP, and preferably a sizeable health pool. That's why she's much better in a solo lane (She's hilarious up top).

That being said, I do run start off supporty and transition to AP. Preferably supporting a melee or generally short-range champ...

:smallsigh: ...Anyways, sorry, that got away from me. She's fun to me because of her passive, mostly. :smallbiggrin: "Why yes, I AM at 10% HP. Please, dive me!"
...And then you get a double kill. :smallamused:

... oh. I wouldn't suggest playing Karma as an actual support, though. She scales relatively well and she offers virtually nothing without items, plus her laning isn't bad ansd she shouldn't share creeps because she should never miss any. She has god tier wave clearing/farming skills. Go mid, start E and alternate levelling E and Q until you're forced to take W. Build one of 2x Doran's + Kage's, 2x or 3x Gp10, or Chalice plus something like Negatron. You need CDR. 21/0/9 with blue buff and AUG or DFG makes 39%. Which one you build depends heavily on matchups. Abyssal and Deathcap goes very well with both, as do WotA and Hourglass. Abyssal should be your second major item (after CDR) unless you're in one of the rare situations in which Abyssal isn't the greatest. Shield your bruisers as they dive or your carry as they get dived. W your bruisers. Manage your Mantras, but that's not too hard as long as you remember that Shield mantra is far and away your most important tool.

[Lix Lorn]

Lixie, don't hiss at people. It makes you look uncivilized.
Hissing is fun.
Hissssssssssssssssssssssss.

[TechnOkami]

Hissing is fun.
Hissssssssssssssssssssssss.

Hey, this does sounds fun.
Hissssssssssssssssssssssssssss.

[Saph]

W max is better than Q max. It's counterintuitive for a number of reasons, and when I heard Froggen and Chauster say in a variety of interviews that W max was better I was really skeptical and just didn't listen. I've never heard anyone accept that when they first heard it.

As another Ahri player, the problem with not maxing Q is that Q is your wave-clear. Without it it's much harder to push out the lane in order to roam (or get blue, or take wraiths, or whatever). If you max Q then by levels 9-11 you can get to the point where you're one-shotting the back line of a minion wave with a single orb - this means more gold and in the long run more items. W is good for cleaning up minions but it's a bit unpredictable, which means you'll tend to miss more CS.

I'd agree on avoiding the gold/10 items though. A lot of Ahri players favour getting a Kage's, but I'm not sure it's a good idea. Apart from anything else, you just don't have the slots. I usually go boots into double Dorans, and I'll always want some wards and a few health pots early, which brings me up to 5 out of 6 item slots filled already. If you add a Kage's in there it makes it really difficult to assemble your Abyssal (or whatever you're building).

[Silverraptor]

Lixie, don't hiss at people. It makes you look uncivilized.

Do you think Lixie is a mere mortal that cares about what we think? She does what she likes.


Hissing is fun.
Hissssssssssssssssssssssss.

See.

[Lix Lorn]

Do you think Lixie is a mere mortal that cares about what we think? She does what she likes.

See.
http://i47.tinypic.com/2d9xs46.png
:33

[ex cathedra]

As another Ahri player, the problem with not maxing Q is that Q is your wave-clear. Without it it's much harder to push out the lane in order to roam (or get blue, or take wraiths, or whatever). If you max Q then by levels 9-11 you can get to the point where you're one-shotting the back line of a minion wave with a single orb - this means more gold and in the long run more items. W is good for cleaning up minions but it's a bit unpredictable, which means you'll tend to miss more CS.

I'd agree on avoiding the gold/10 items though. A lot of Ahri players favour getting a Kage's, but I'm not sure it's a good idea. Apart from anything else, you just don't have the slots. I usually go boots into double Dorans, and I'll always want some wards and a few health pots early, which brings me up to 5 out of 6 item slots filled already. If you add a Kage's in there it makes it really difficult to assemble your Abyssal (or whatever you're building).

Clearing the wave faster doesn't actually make the next wave come any sooner. Clearing the wave slightly faster doesn't make you any more gold in and of itself. Ahri's auto-attack is really, really reliable so it's much harder to miss a significant amount of CS than you suggest. W max offers you much, much more in most situations and it's almost impossible to whiff the spell. If you miss Q in an engage, those four additional ranks are pretty much useless.
Kage's builds into DFG... it's really good. You don't need to buy many health potions once you hit level 9, anyways.

[Saph]

Clearing the wave faster doesn't actually make the next wave come any sooner. Clearing the wave slightly faster doesn't make you any more gold in and of itself.

No, but it lets you go do things which do make you more gold. :)

The other reason I'm dubious about maxing W is that to get all three hits of Foxfire you have to be fairly close to your target, which means you're guaranteed to be in range of whatever they're going to hit you back with. Ahri's squishy and hanging around at 400-500 range is dangerous.

DFG's not bad, but I tend to find Abyssal works better as a first item (assuming you're laning against another AP-user, which you generally are).

[Dallas-Dakota]

Because Ahri is actually pretty good at quickly clearing wraiths.

[Saph]

Ugh, just had the stupidest game I think I've ever seen.

I was playing Ahri against Veigar and won my lane, but our top and bottom lost horribly and their jungle Rengar got stupidly fed (think he was 10/0 by midgame). We get pushed back to our base, lose our towers, lose an inhib, lose another inhib, until we're sitting in our base with zero vision because our support doesn't buy wards. As usually happens, the team chat is filled with bitching and moaning as the lanes that lose blame each other. The other team takes every objective on the map and I wait for the game to end.

It doesn't. Instead of pushing into our base the other team takes every objective on the map and then waits outside in a bush for to come out so they can ambush us. My team counters this brilliant strategy by turtling in our base and refusing to leave. Since I'm Ahri I can't initiate without getting instagibbed by Rengar, and my team won't leave base, so I have to sit around chain-drinking blue potions. Somehow the other team ends up waiting so long that the members of our team who lost their lanes farm so many of the super-minion waves that they actually catch up. The other team also don't figure out that I'm the biggest threat, so they don't focus me, so I just sit behind our tanks and keep spamming spells. Eventually our Ashe gets farmed, the other team gets aced, and we take baron. Even then most of our team refuses to push out (I guess they'd spent so long in base by this point that they were scared to leave) and the other team has to collectively suicide twice more before our team finally gets motivated to stop farming and take their nexus.

I finished 13/6/13 with the only positive score on our team, but we really didn't deserve to win. My elo must be REALLY terrible if I'm being matched with players this bad . . .

[The Shadowmind]

Been playing Riven as main top, Ahri as main mid, Jayce as AD carry, Alistar as support, and Diana as jungler.

I have been having trouble learning how to gank as other junglers, any advice?


I'll get Lixie to accept an invite to a game one of these days.

[ChaosOS]

Depends on other junglers, but the two that I know:

Jarvan: Pre-6, walk up and W them. Then, when they flash/dash, EQ. Either you're stuck to them or you blew ez/graves/dash champs flashes and still have a decent chance of securing the kill with lizard
Post 6: Either do above strat, or if you're good at hitting the EQ EQ in, W, then dunk after they use their dashes. Only dunk if their dash CD's are down though.

Trundle: Wait for enemies to engage, then pillar and contaminate. Run up, hit them in the face. You should be able to force a flash or get a kill if you placed your pillar and W correctly, the pillar stops people in their tracks if they don't flash out of it. Also, it gives vision in bushes, so keep that in mind when placing it. If you're looking to get a kill (Flash is blown), use your ult ASAP for the armor and MR shred. Note though, he's absolutely terrible when it comes to ganking mid, they have to be pretty overextended because he lacks hard CC. Just chain gank bot and top.

[Lix Lorn]

I'll get Lixie to accept an invite to a game one of these days.
I don't play with forum people very often xD
You're all higher normal elo than me and I get crushinated. I guess that might be different now, but everyone also has terrible timing.

[TheLogman]

With any jungler, the important bit is cooperating with the lane that you're ganking. I hate it when a laner pushes the lane to the turret, gets ganked, and then goes "wtf why didn't you gank them at turret".

Mark your target for the laner and hope they don't push in the mean time.

Udyr: Get behind them, either by attacking from river or even farther back. If necessary, pop flash/ghost to catch up to them, hit them with bear stance to stun them, use Tiger/Phoenix (depending on which is most leveled up at the time and what you are building) to shell out heavy damage (especially Tiger's delayed damage that allows for kills under turrets when chasing a runner), and continue using Bear to catch up and stun as often as possible.

Lee Sin: Hit with your Q, leap to them, use cripple to slow, use Dragon Rage to knock them back towards your laner and away from their tower if necessary.

Alistar: Headbutt + Knockup combo should give enough CC for your laner to kill them without any other issue, especially if you can chain it properly or you headbutt them into a wall and then followup with pulverize.

[Neftren]

I finished 13/6/13 with the only positive score on our team, but we really didn't deserve to win. My elo must be REALLY terrible if I'm being matched with players this bad . . .

There are bad people at every ELO. The matchmaking system, while excellent, is not perfect. See, if you can recognize that these people are bad, then therefore, your appropriate ELO is higher than those other people, and you can chalk it down to statistical anomaly. :smallbiggrin: (badmaths!)

Okay okay in all seriousness, your ELO is only really terrible if you're regularly seeing these players. :smallsmile:


I do think that the ELO system is a poor fit for League of Legends though. It really should be a point accumulation system, where everyone starts at 0, the floor is capped at 0, so there is no falling into "ELO Hell" per se. A small multiplier should be added, based around your win/loss ratio to further differentiate good players from average players (note that most Platinum players have at least 60-70% W/L). Oh, and the whole placement system should be scrapped. Your first twenty games shouldn't matter any more than your next twenty. Players shouldn't be overly penalized for poor initial performance, despite massive improvements in skill.


I don't play with forum people very often xD
You're all higher normal elo than me and I get crushinated. I guess that might be different now, but everyone also has terrible timing.

You should play with me! I promise you won't get crushinated. :smallfrown:

[LightWraith]

Wow! Thanks for all the info everyone! That's a lot to digest. Guess I should go play and try this out then.

Also, I was wondering what champions people might recommend I learn for when I end up Top Lane or Jungle, keeping in mind I seem to do better with ranged ability-based champs. I'm okay with complicated champions, it just gives me something to practice :smallsmile:

[Eldariel]

Anyone try an Urgot/Yorick bottom lane? It seems like it'd be certain to piss off anyone trying to lane conventionally.

Thankfully at my skill level, people can't last hit under the tower well.

It's very effective. Not as effective as Urgot+Stun (to land free Es) or Urgot+Soraka (for infinite everything) but Yorick is a great harassing/lane domination support and his ulti doesn't care about itemization. So yeah, Urgot is an obscenely strong AD (bruiser) and Yorick is a fine support so the combination works, albeit there isn't too much synergy there.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Preliminary thoughts on the Lionman?

[Ivellius]

Okay, I'm wanting to get on Mumble now. I have a new comp with a video camera and built-in microphone, so I figure it'll be more useful to me. Only...it doesn't work, and I don't know how to fix it. I messaged Djinn without a response, so I'm turning to the general thread.

If it makes a difference, at one point a while back, I got into the Mumble server, but I couldn't tell you what I had as a user name for certain (either the same as here or possibly LPIvellius). I'm not sure if that affects anything. Is there a different server I need to try?

I'm getting this message: "Server connection failed: The remote host closed the connection."

[Tychris1]

Preliminary thoughts on the Lionman?

Stab in the face, stab in the face, lunge, ignite, FIRST BLOOD. Want now.

[toasty]

Preliminary thoughts on the Lionman?

Can't beat Yorick. :smallfrown:

[ZeroNumerous]

Can't beat Yorick. :smallfrown:

He sure as hell can first blood him at least.

[tyckspoon]

Okay, I'm wanting to get on Mumble now. I have a new comp with a video camera and built-in microphone, so I figure it'll be more useful to me. Only...it doesn't work, and I don't know how to fix it. I messaged Djinn without a response, so I'm turning to the general thread.

If it makes a difference, at one point a while back, I got into the Mumble server, but I couldn't tell you what I had as a user name for certain (either the same as here or possibly LPIvellius). I'm not sure if that affects anything. Is there a different server I need to try?

I'm getting this message: "Server connection failed: The remote host closed the connection."

If it was long enough ago you might just need to update- Mumble made an update a while ago that broke the authentication model from the previous versions, so you had to update Mumble itself and then reconnect to your favored server(s) to recreate your certificate.

[LightWraith]

Preliminary thoughts on the Lionman?

Actually just played a game as Soraka with him as my lane buddy against a Sivir/AP Fiddle Lane. Was kind of strange, but we held the lane decently considering. He seems like he could be good, but I think my buddy had some issues figuring out exactly how to work him, understandably.

Speaking of which, I really should have gone mid with Ahri in that game, but someone insta-locked Diana (and wasn't set up for jungle) so I thought she was headed there. Turns out we had 3 people planning on going Top (and only me planning on going bot). yay communication! I could have done pretty well against their Fiora mid I think. Instead she facerolled us. 13/1/3.

We surrendered at 30.

I need to get Mumble set up myself.

[ex cathedra]

Stab in the face, stab in the face, lunge, ignite, FIRST BLOOD. Want now.

You've got the order all wrong. It's ignite, lunge, stab, stab. Duh. :smalltongue:

[Tychris1]

? I'm just saying what I saw someone do in a game. Stabbed once for max ferocity, stabbed again, the other guy started to run away so Rengar web into the brush, lunged on the dude and ignited him before walking away and getting first blood.

[Terribad]

Whats your jungle route and typical build on her? If she's the squishy assassin type, sounds more like a candidate for Abyssal or DFG. Does she need to hit 6 to gank? Granted it sounds powerful but with her E, she seems to be able to gank earlier.

Reposting for comments.

Wolves -> Blue -> Full clear in 3.34 with leash on blue, started boots+3, ended up with 3/4 health and 1 pot. Guess I found my new favourite jungler.

Ganks with her E are amazing. Its basically Orianna's ult + W rolled into one. Opponents are afraid to flash only to be sucked in and slowed so they take a ton of dmg. I don't get the assassin vibe on her though.

[Godskook]

Whats your jungle route and typical build on her? If she's the squishy assassin type, sounds more like a candidate for Abyssal or DFG. Does she need to hit 6 to gank? Granted it sounds powerful but with her E, she seems to be able to gank earlier.

Pre-6, her ganks are lackluster, but doable, especially if you get behind them in a lane with CC. You'll need Red and your E, which usually means a minimum of lvl 4 though.

Abyssal is great on her, as, like I said earlier, it offers both offense and defense, and the defense is resists, which she scales better with due to her shield.

DFG is 'fine', except there's no durability to be had there, and as a jungler, you're probably not going to have the farm to afford more than 1 pure offense item, and reflexively, I'd make that a hat.

Currently, Diana goes where she pleases in the jungle(watch stonewall's video), and really, really likes both red and blue(to the point that I'd prefer a mana-less mid with her), but doesn't 'need' either to be effective. Blue's more useful for staying in the field longer, but you're early CDs are too high for a second rotation, regardless, so Blue won't really help your ganks till later game. Conversely, Red is great for ganking, but won't help your clear speed as much(A red clear is faster cause of how the jungle is set up, not because Red is a stronger buff). Thus, if you want to gank at lvl 4, a blue start will give you red for a longer period between "jungle cleared" and the 7 minute mark(when buffs come back up). If you plan on spending more time farming and don't want strong lvl 4 ganks, but do want strong lvl 6 ganks, her Red clear is faster and ends with Blue, letting her wander around for a while clearing small camps, counterjungling or taking opportunistic ganks at her pleasure. Red will re-spawn around lvl 6, allowing you to gank hard right when you want to gank hard.


Hissssssss.
Her ult does less damage than anything else she has, and the ten seconds or so it is now is still long enough to be annoying.

No, as someone who played no-one but her for a solid week, and still plays her every other battle, her Q is crazy high base damage. Mana intensive, but... yeah, that's what I'd nerf. Nothing else really strikes me as out of line.

Umm.....

1.Its currently 12 seconds, so I'm talking like a 3 second nerf that won't ever matter as long as you're landing Q before every Ult other than the one you end the fight with. As it stands now, in a 3-Q fight, there's literally no difference damage-wise between opening with Q->RR and waiting for your second Q before ulting again. Increasing it by a paltry 3 seconds would provoke more interesting choices when choosing between double-ulting or not, while not costing her anything significant.

2.Her ult is strong portion of her burst potential, accounting for more than a third of her theoretical burst damage(all spells hit and 3 autos). Ignoring the fact that you can double-cast it is just....incredibly misleading as to how potent it is.

3.Her Q has fine base damage, its actually barely anything compared to most other skill shots, especially for a melee AP. Compare to Cho, Morgana, Gragas, Amumu, Galio....I could go on, but I got bored looking up examples that show why her Q has less than great base damage.

4.I expect someone will point out the good AP ratio on her Q, but several of the examples listed above have either better ratios(Cho'Gath, seriously), or base damage so much better that the increased ratio is merely compensating for Diana's lower base damage for most of the game(Amumu).

5.Her Q actually has a *REALLY* cheap mana cost. Seriously, just try finding an AP champ with a ranged harass for that low of a mana cost. There probably is one(murphy's law of posting and all that), but it's going to be quite hard for you to find. I would've considered increasing that cost, but Diana's meant to be a jungler, so mana efficiency is important to keep her working.

[Duos]

Holy ****.

Rengar does so much damage at level 1.

I started cloth five with tank masteries and runes because I heard it was strong and I STILL got burst from full to zero at one.

That is, without a doubt, the strongest level one that has ever existed in league, barring some really early beta shenanigans that I don't know about.

[Silverraptor]

Holy ****.

Rengar does so much damage at level 1.

I started cloth five with tank masteries and runes because I heard it was strong and I STILL got burst from full to zero at one.

That is, without a doubt, the strongest level one that has ever existed in league, barring some really early beta shenanigans that I don't know about.

TF with his ult as a regular skill on a 12 second cd.

*Shivers*

[TheShrike]

(note that most Platinum players have at least 60-70% W/L).

I find that interesting, considering most of the top 25 players on NA have a winrate below 60%.

[toasty]

I find that interesting, considering most of the top 25 players on NA have a winrate below 60%.

That's cuz once you top 25 A) you have very little incentive to tryhard in solo queue, since its very likely you can get to high elo whenever you feel like it. B) Getting to that level of play requires a LOT of games. Plat is 1900, top 25 is... 2500? There is a pretty big gap there.

[Zen Master]

Rengar: From unreleased to insta-ban in one giant leap.

I wonder if there's some new guy at Riot? Zyra, Diana, Rengar - 3 out of 3, massively overpowered at release. Or it could be a new policy. Deliberately release new champs too strong to boost sales.

In the latter case, very bad long term business strategy.

[Eldariel]

That's cuz once you top 25 A) you have very little incentive to tryhard in solo queue, since its very likely you can get to high elo whenever you feel like it. B) Getting to that level of play requires a LOT of games. Plat is 1900, top 25 is... 2500? There is a pretty big gap there.

It's also because win rate is in effect a meaningless statistic in LoL due to how matchmaking works. The more games you play, the lower it'll be by necessity unless you're so much better than every other player in the world that it doesn't even matter (tip: nobody is).

[TFT]

You know what's the best? Rushing in as kennen to ult the enemy team including the ad carry, activating zhonyas. More importantly, doing this three times in a row in teamfights to let your team win a game where all but the nexus turrets were down and all inhibs were down at some point despite the fact you dced laning phase.

You know what's the worst? Playing cass, and then right when you get in ulting range of 2-3 people including the ad/ap carry and right before/when you ult janna ults/flash ults them away. This happened 2-3 times in a row that game. Granted I didn't make the best decisions that game, but janna pushing people out of an ult was the most detrimental thing in that game(one of these got them baron, the other won them the game)

Solo queue : /

[Tergon]

Yeah, Janna's "I'm helping!" factor is second only to that of Gragas.

[LordShotGun]

Yeah, Janna's "I'm helping!" factor is second only to that of Gragas.

Nah, Grages isn't even in the top three. He gets beat out by anivia, alistar, and JARVAN!!!

[Talesin]

Yeah, Janna's "I'm helping!" factor is second only to that of Gragas.

Learning when to ult as Janna is something that I genuinely don't think you can teach. There are obvious situations such as Wukong's ulting your team or Diana's just double ulted your carry. But getting those clutch ults off usually won't work for the same reason you see so many Gragas ults knocking people sideways rather than into your team.

Split second decision + cast time + server latency means you need to be ahead of what you want to happen to get it to work properly.

However saying all that it is so damn irritating when someone messes up a good situation by not really thinking. Like the Janna who ulted 5 people out of a morg ult on the 'top 5 fails' clips by jump in the pack a few months back.

[ZeroNumerous]

JARVAN!!!

Jarvan is just the best helper. The best.

[Tergon]

Alistair can be annoying, but only to an extent. His charge doesn't have as much knockback as Janna or Gragas. Anivia... she can be annoying, but generally Anivias don't throw walls in the middle of a teamfight and ruin everything. I will give you that Jarvan is annoying, but to me he's third - after Janna in second and Gragas in first. Gragas' cooldown is just so short, he can keep bombing barrels at long range, but with the difficult targeting I'd say I see him make things worse more often than better.

[Delusion]

Alistair can be annoying, but only to an extent. His charge doesn't have as much knockback as Janna or Gragas. Anivia... she can be annoying, but generally Anivias don't throw walls in the middle of a teamfight and ruin everything. I will give you that Jarvan is annoying, but to me he's third - after Janna in second and Gragas in first. Gragas' cooldown is just so short, he can keep bombing barrels at long range, but with the difficult targeting I'd say I see him make things worse more often than better.

You forget that Alistar's headbut is freguently used in his combo that is very easy to fail, so he is maybe the most likely to knockback someone to safety when he ment to W->Q

[sonofzeal]

I just tried Xin Zhao, and is it just me or is he Poppy with all the problems fixed? Much better early-game, more synergy between abilities, some AoE, and his ult at least has some range.

I love Poppy... but on SR, Xin Zhao seems catagorically superior.

[Zen Master]

I can't say if it's the proper use of Alistar - but I saw this one guy ...

What he did was activate Shurelia's, use his heal to turn off unit collision, then run in, bounce people around, knock them where he wanted them, ulti when he got focus, heal again for more unit-collission-ness, knock more people around.

He basically made teamfights impossible. It was quite extraordinary.

[Eldariel]

I can't say if it's the proper use of Alistar - but I saw this one guy ...

What he did was activate Shurelia's, use his heal to turn off unit collision, then run in, bounce people around, knock them where he wanted them, ulti when he got focus, heal again for more unit-collission-ness, knock more people around.

He basically made teamfights impossible. It was quite extraordinary.

"Proper" if you can pull it off. Generally enemies have their own Shurelya's to escape with though. But if you can catch 'em, go for it.

[ex cathedra]

I just tried Xin Zhao, and is it just me or is he Poppy with all the problems fixed? Much better early-game, more synergy between abilities, some AoE, and his ult at least has some range.

I love Poppy... but on SR, Xin Zhao seems catagorically superior.

How so, exactly? They aren't particularly similar, and Xin Zhao doesn't turn into the unstoppable 40 minute carry that Poppy does. Poppy can also afford much more offensive itemization, if she so wishes, and Xin completely lacks her damage/cc immunity. He really tops off at the 20 minute mark and after that he pretty much only gets tankier.

[endoperez]

Oh man...

I play lots of Alistar. Why haven't I realized I can use 'E' to turn of unit collision! :smallredface:

Speaking of Alistar "helping", here's my favourite fail as Alistar this week. Enemy carry+support are at our tower, my carry is defending. I know they warded river. I'm moving down from enemy red towards our bot, the enemies don't know I'm there. I sneak past their minion wave into farther bot brush, like a ninja. I sneak into next bush without being seen by their minion wave. I'm in the bush, next to them, they don't know it, their minions are dying, their carry is between me and my tower, in headbutt distance... W! Oh NO! I just ganked a minion...

:smallsigh:

It's good for jungling, yes, and situationally useful. Still, sometimes I hate the fact that headbutt can hit minions.

[LordShotGun]

O Still, sometimes I hate the fact that headbutt can hit minions.

I have used it a few times to escape counter ganks when I am the jungler and more then a few times when supporting as Ali.

[sonofzeal]

How so, exactly? They aren't particularly similar, and Xin Zhao doesn't turn into the unstoppable 40 minute carry that Poppy does. Poppy can also afford much more offensive itemization, if she so wishes, and Xin completely lacks her damage/cc immunity. He really tops off at the 20 minute mark and after that he pretty much only gets tankier.
Well, both are Melee Assassin/Fighters, and that's a short list - the remainder is Fizz, who seems the odd one out of the three. Both Xin and Poppy completely lack poke. Both have nice damage on their Q, mixed offence and defence on their W, and a dash on their E. Both technically have some CC, but it's not easily applied on an uncooperative enemy (Xin seems to gain more in his Ult, but I've yet to figure out how to apply it effectively beyond I'M HELPING).

Poppy is more about burst damage, while Xin is more about damage over time, and their Ults take them in different directions. But I see a lot of overlap between their two kits, more than most other champions I've played.

[Gauntlet]

I just tried Xin Zhao, and is it just me or is he Poppy with all the problems fixed? Much better early-game, more synergy between abilities, some AoE, and his ult at least has some range.

I love Poppy... but on SR, Xin Zhao seems catagorically superior.

The difference is that by mid/lategame, poppy is a long shot more effective at murdering carries since she is more difficult to kite and harder to peel.

[Joran]

It's very effective. Not as effective as Urgot+Stun (to land free Es) or Urgot+Soraka (for infinite everything) but Yorick is a great harassing/lane domination support and his ulti doesn't care about itemization. So yeah, Urgot is an obscenely strong AD (bruiser) and Yorick is a fine support so the combination works, albeit there isn't too much synergy there.

The synergy is both champions have "OMG, STOP HARASSING ME" skills; I call the lane "Team Anti-Fun". It works in theory, but we'll try it tonight to see if reality matches theory.

I thought of Soraka as a natural support for Urgot (spam all the missiles!), but Leona might be interesting too.

[Zen Master]

"Proper" if you can pull it off. Generally enemies have their own Shurelya's to escape with though. But if you can catch 'em, go for it.

At my level? Jesus no, they do not. It's not that I've never seen one, but it's so rare as to be without consequence. And I'm fairly sure I've never seen anyone remember to activate it.

It's one of the things I suck at myself. Never bought it, cause I'd never remember to use the active.


Oh man...

I play lots of Alistar. Why haven't I realized I can use 'E' to turn of unit collision! :smallredface:

Frankly, I was baffled. I wondered 'how in HXXX is he doing that?!'

I had to watch closely, while dead, before I realised all that thrashing around with his arms meant he could go where ever to position.

It was mind-bogglingly effective. That game was won by the enemy support (which was Alistar of course).

[ChaosOS]

His passive is PBAoE damage and ignore unit collision for (3?) seconds after each spell cast. In case you didn't know, he's gotten a rework, his old passive was something like 70% more damage to turrets or something really high like that, but also some changes to the CDs/damage on his Q and W. Post-rework AP alistar was unbeatable because his ult was incredibly strong at something absurd like 70% less damage at all ranks and he had good AP scaling on all his skills.

[Silverraptor]

Hey guys. This is somewhat relevant. Although it could just as easily be a refernce to Dota, but its close enough to LoL that it still caused me to lol.:smallbiggrin:
http://www.massivepwnage.com/comics/2012-08-22.jpg

[Joran]

Rengar: From unreleased to insta-ban in one giant leap.

I wonder if there's some new guy at Riot? Zyra, Diana, Rengar - 3 out of 3, massively overpowered at release. Or it could be a new policy. Deliberately release new champs too strong to boost sales.

In the latter case, very bad long term business strategy.

I've seen a variation of this accusation every so often; it was old a year ago, it's really old now. It's just as easy that Riot releases three lackluster champions (Viktor, Sejuani, Ziggs or Lulu, Hecarim, Varus) in a row, but no one accuses them of purposely releasing crappy champions to boost up the sales of pre-existing champions.

And nothing can match Twisted Fate with global teleport on a 12 second cooldown or release Xin for ridiculously OP ;)

[Delusion]

I've seen a variation of this accusation every so often; it was old a year ago, it's really old now. It's just as easy that Riot releases three lackluster champions (Viktor, Sejuani, Ziggs or Lulu, Hecarim, Varus) in a row, but no one accuses them of purposely releasing crappy champions to boost up the sales of pre-existing champions.

And nothing can match Twisted Fate with global teleport on a 12 second cooldown or release Xin for ridiculously OP ;)

Not even Nasus with 1:1 ratio on his ult?

(Or atleast I heard his ultwas bugged like that at one point.)

[Laudandus]

I've seen a variation of this accusation every so often; it was old a year ago, it's really old now. It's just as easy that Riot releases three lackluster champions (Viktor, Sejuani, Ziggs or Lulu, Hecarim, Varus) in a row, but no one accuses them of purposely releasing crappy champions to boost up the sales of pre-existing champions.

And nothing can match Twisted Fate with global teleport on a 12 second cooldown or release Xin for ridiculously OP ;)

Sejuani, Ziggs, Hecarim, and Lulu at least are all strong! Ziggs in particular had a pretty big nerf the patch after his release.

Rengar doesn't even seem strong, honestly. I've seen him twice now in solo queue and he didn't do well either game - all through midgame he was kinda squishy, and at one point he ran up to my Jayce and I just killed him.

[endoperez]

Not even Nasus with 1:1 ratio on his ult?

(Or atleast I heard his ultwas bugged like that at one point.)

I've heard that too. Nasus ult deals percentage damage to enemy champions. The ult had 1:1 AP ratio. It didn't increase the damage, but the percentage... I can't find a mention or a video of it, maybe it's just a legend.

[Joran]

Sejuani, Ziggs, Hecarim, and Lulu at least are all strong! Ziggs in particular had a pretty big nerf the patch after his release.


Lulu got mildly hit with the nerf bat. Even though Sejuani is strong, I've yet to see her in pro matches or outside of free weeks (poor girl). Those were the easiest cluster I could find to champions that are underplayed now.

For every Zyra, that needed to be hotfixed, there are champions like Fiora, who see very little play and weren't released to overwhelming OP.

[Psyborg]

And nothing can match Twisted Fate with global teleport on a 12 second cooldown or release Xin for ridiculously OP ;)

I remember seeing something on the fora a long time ago that went something like this:

Tier List of Broken-ness:

Tier S: Game Literally Unplayable: Zombie Karthus bug; release Yorick with bugged ult (does anyone still have that screenshot of the Nocturne with 600+ kills?)

Tier 1: Cannot Lose Game. No, Seriously- CANNOT: Release Xin; Beta Twisted Fate; Release LeBlanc (I think she still holds the record for fastest hotfix); Poppy with 6 items.

Tier 2: Broken OP: Release Irelia/Vayne/Nocturne/Ziggs/Zyra; immediately-post-rework Shen and AP Alistar; post-buff+pre-mana-cost-nerf Skarner; Rumble with 30sec ult CD; pre-nerf/pre-Gunblade-nerf Akali; pre-nerf/pre-spellvamp-nerf Mordekaiser; revolver-stacking Vladimir; Kog'Maw with multiplicative attack speed passive; Karthus during the AoE bug; Poppy with 5 items.

Tier 3: OP: Release Graves; post-rework Sivir; Poppy with 4 items; current Shen/Malphite/Rengar/Diana, probably? Others by opinion. Also, Vayne and pre-rework Twitch go here if they ever get a full build.

Tier 4: The Rest: Balanced, more or less.

Tier 5: Sadface:smallfrown:: Vayne with less than five items. Karma. Twitch. Release Skarner.

Tier Evelynn: FOREVER ALONE.

[NineThePuma]

Even post rework, eve is crap.

[LordShotGun]

Even post rework, eve is crap.

Sadly yes. Also, I would add karma to the eve tier. She does nothing that other champions can't do better.

[Eldariel]

I remember seeing something on the fora a long time ago that went something like this:

Tier List of Broken-ness:

Tier S: Game Literally Unplayable: Zombie Karthus bug; release Yorick with bugged ult (does anyone still have that screenshot of the Nocturne with 600+ kills?)

Tier 1: Cannot Lose Game. No, Seriously- CANNOT: Release Xin; Beta Twisted Fate; Release LeBlanc (I think she still holds the record for fastest hotfix); Poppy with 6 items.

Tier 2: Broken OP: Release Irelia/Vayne/Nocturne/Ziggs/Zyra; immediately-post-rework Shen and AP Alistar; post-buff+pre-mana-cost-nerf Skarner; Rumble with 30sec ult CD; pre-nerf/pre-Gunblade-nerf Akali; pre-nerf/pre-spellvamp-nerf Mordekaiser; revolver-stacking Vladimir; Kog'Maw with multiplicative attack speed passive; Karthus during the AoE bug; Poppy with 5 items.

Tier 3: OP: Release Graves; post-rework Sivir; Poppy with 4 items; current Shen/Malphite/Rengar/Diana, probably? Others by opinion. Also, Vayne and pre-rework Twitch go here if they ever get a full build.

Tier 4: The Rest: Balanced, more or less.

Tier 5: Sadface:smallfrown:: Vayne with less than five items. Karma. Twitch. Release Skarner.

Tier Evelynn: FOREVER ALONE.

Bug Anivia belongs to tier S. Flash Frost hit the whole map. Beta Twisted Fate is somewhere between Tier S and Tier 1; required skill to pick the gold cards but basically from level 2 you could be anywhere on the map with 12 second cooldown and had AOE stun (if you could pick Gold Card; the time was SHORT and the other cards sucked). You could also get like 5 gold cards in a row with a bug at one point.


Sadly yes. Also, I would add karma to the eve tier. She does nothing that other champions can't do better.

She makes your whole team Vladimir. If Vlad's a good pick, Karma's even better.

[Delusion]

I think I have finally nailed Alistars combo. yay me.

[Zen Master]

I've seen a variation of this accusation every so often; it was old a year ago, it's really old now. It's just as easy that Riot releases three lackluster champions (Viktor, Sejuani, Ziggs or Lulu, Hecarim, Varus) in a row, but no one accuses them of purposely releasing crappy champions to boost up the sales of pre-existing champions.

And nothing can match Twisted Fate with global teleport on a 12 second cooldown or release Xin for ridiculously OP ;)

Accusation? I'd use the word commentary. Most champions are strong-ish on release. Some less so. But few go from untested to instaban in a day.

That's all I'm saying. Anything else - is something you're saying.

[LordShotGun]

She makes your whole team Vladimir. If Vlad's a good pick, Karma's even better.

:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

[Psyborg]

:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

Karma is the best healer in the game.

[Neoseanster]

My brother's been playing Rengar exclusively as an AP carry. He's got a 1.0 ratio on his W's AoE damage, and if you go in with 4 or 5 ferocity you can use it a second time with no cooldown for 2.0 AoE, plus a gap closer and stealth on the ultimate to get you in range to burst down their squishies with it. It's a gimmick, but it works amusingly well... he's by far outfarmed everyone he's laned it against, mixed results on actually "winning games" though.

[ex cathedra]

Sadly yes. Also, I would add karma to the eve tier. She does nothing that other champions can't do better.

Karma actually has a really unique combination of abilities, so how do you figure? She plays most similarly to AP Janna, but she has more damage and her heal is easier to use. OTOH she's more reliant on itemization and she has less utility.

[Eldariel]

:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

Her E is shield + nuke on low cooldown. Her Q is AOE heal (based on missing health with bonus AP based on YOUR missing health making you SUPER-Vladimir if focused) + AOE nuke. Her W is...there I guess. Anyways, the point is if Vlad's hard to kill on her own, Karma is hard to kill and if the enemy focuses anybody else they're just as hard to kill. And your whole team is superhard to kill. All the while you take stupid amounts of AOE damage from 3 AOE abilities (just toss the W to a bruiser, it'll hit enough people).

Karma's OP in ARAM & 3v3 for this reason. In 5v5 she's still more than passable. Nobody else has the shields and heals and the natural inherent tankiness Karma does (only Lulu comes close and she herself is much easier to kill and her ult cooldown is fairly long tho Lulu of course does outdo Karma on the CC front; not on the AOE damage front tho).

[NineThePuma]

I'd like to see the Armor/MR shred back on Evelynn's E, and have her W not break stealth. That would give her a pseudo gap closer and make her kills much more likely

[Godskook]

She makes your whole team Vladimir. If Vlad's a good pick, Karma's even better.

Could you explain that connection? I looked at her kit and Vlad's and I'm just not seeing the similarities.

I mean, Vlad's got troll pool for lane safety and tower diving prowess, a team-wide damage steroid that's item independent(relevant when Vlad's not the one getting fed on his team), and gets AP from building Warmogs(not much, but enough to make it viable for a bruiser Vlad build in a double-AP comp). His Q+E are on ~4s CDs, making him very DPSy.

Meanwhile, Karma has no escapes, no alternate build options, and her contribution to team-mates is hastes, slows, shields and heals. Her CDs are all long, making Karma's playstyle rather bursty.

(Note: This post in no way discusses the viability of Karma, just her comparison to Vladimir. Please don't reply to it in that context.)

[faith]

on the OP list should be beta jax, dodging towers like a baws

[Eldariel]

Could you explain that connection? I looked at her kit and Vlad's and I'm just not seeing the similarities.

I mean, Vlad's got troll pool for lane safety and tower diving prowess, a team-wide damage steroid that's item independent(relevant when Vlad's not the one getting fed on his team), and gets AP from building Warmogs(not much, but enough to make it viable for a bruiser Vlad build in a double-AP comp). His Q+E are on ~4s CDs, making him very DPSy.

Meanwhile, Karma has no escapes, no alternate build options, and her contribution to team-mates is hastes, slows, shields and heals. Her CDs are all long, making Karma's playstyle rather bursty.

(Note: This post in no way discusses the viability of Karma, just her comparison to Vladimir. Please don't reply to it in that context.)

Basically, Vladimir's selling point is being obscenely hard to kill on back of Transfusion, Spellvamp & Healing Steroid. Now, Karma doesn't give people the Trollpool but he does give everyone massive shields (scaling with missing HP) and decent heals (scaling by her missing HP and target's missing HP) while dealing lots of AOE damage, much like Vlad really.

Vlad makes himself nearly impossible to kill, Karma makes everybody nearly impossible to kill. Both do a lot of AOE damage while at it. Not the same champ but similar functions on a macro-level.

[Joran]

Accusation? I'd use the word commentary. Most champions are strong-ish on release. Some less so. But few go from untested to instaban in a day.

That's all I'm saying. Anything else - is something you're saying.

I was responding to


Or it could be a new policy. Deliberately release new champs too strong to boost sales.

In the latter case, very bad long term business strategy.

The first comment on a Rengar Guaranteed First Blood video is:


"Riot - Release new champ.. make op.. make millions
New patch - nerf nerf nerf"


So, you're not the only one making that kind of assertion, commentary, whatever. You threw it out as a hypothetical, possible explanation, but it's a pretty common idea among the fanbase that Riot intentionally makes champions too strong to increase sales.

Lets look at the last 10 releases to see if we see any proof:

Rengar: Too early to tell, but level 1 burst seems like it's too high, but can be fixed pretty easily. His kit doesn't seem OP, just a few numbers tweaks and he should be good.
Diana: No idea, hasn't been nerfed, no tournament play (is she patched in?).
Zyra: OP, hotfixed, seen tournament play.
Jayce: Looks balanced, seen some tournament play, no changes.
Draven: Might be slightly UP, seen err... once in tournament play, no changes.
Darius: Looks balanced, saw a slight numbers nerf on his passive and refresh on ult, seen sometimes in tournament play.
Varus: Looks balanced to UP, saw a slight numbers buff, seen some tournament play.
Hecarim: Looks balanced to UP, very slight numbers buff, no tournament play.
Lulu: Looks balanced, very slight numbers nerf on Glitterlance, seen tournament play.
Fiora: Looks UP, slight cooldown buff on ultimate, no tournament play.

I don't see any evidence from Riot intentionally releasing OP champions then nerfing them down to boost sales. In fact, I see good evidence that Riot does a good job of making viable champions that need only a slight change here or there to make them competitive.

[Zen Master]

I was responding to

The first comment on a Rengar Guaranteed First Blood video is:

So, you're not the only one making that kind of assertion, commentary, whatever. You threw it out as a hypothetical, possible explanation, but it's a pretty common idea among the fanbase that Riot intentionally makes champions too strong to increase sales.

Lets look at the last 10 releases to see if we see any proof:

Rengar: Too early to tell, but level 1 burst seems like it's too high, but can be fixed pretty easily. His kit doesn't seem OP, just a few numbers tweaks and he should be good.
Diana: No idea, hasn't been nerfed, no tournament play (is she patched in?).
Zyra: OP, hotfixed, seen tournament play.
Jayce: Looks balanced, seen some tournament play, no changes.
Draven: Might be slightly UP, seen err... once in tournament play, no changes.
Darius: Looks balanced, saw a slight numbers nerf on his passive and refresh on ult, seen sometimes in tournament play.
Varus: Looks balanced to UP, saw a slight numbers buff, seen some tournament play.
Hecarim: Looks balanced to UP, very slight numbers buff, no tournament play.
Lulu: Looks balanced, very slight numbers nerf on Glitterlance, seen tournament play.
Fiora: Looks UP, slight cooldown buff on ultimate, no tournament play.

I don't see any evidence from Riot intentionally releasing OP champions then nerfing them down to boost sales. In fact, I see good evidence that Riot does a good job of making viable champions that need only a slight change here or there to make them competitive.

I wasn't pointing any fingers or anything. I just wanted to clarify that I didn't intend any accusations - just to comment on the latest three champs.

In general I agree. Riot makes no more mistakes than most, and the majority of champions have been more or less ok at release. This, in part, is why it's surprising for three in a row to be (in my opinion) way OP.

[LordShotGun]

Her E is shield + nuke on low cooldown. Her Q is AOE heal (based on missing health with bonus AP based on YOUR missing health making you SUPER-Vladimir if focused) + AOE nuke. Her W is...there I guess. Anyways, the point is if Vlad's hard to kill on her own, Karma is hard to kill and if the enemy focuses anybody else they're just as hard to kill. And your whole team is superhard to kill. All the while you take stupid amounts of AOE damage from 3 AOE abilities (just toss the W to a bruiser, it'll hit enough people).


Then why is she so horrendously underplayed? There must be some reason that she is almost NEVER seen and even when she does make an appearance it is usually to calls of trollpick.



Diana: No idea, hasn't been nerfed, no tournament play (is she patched in?).


Can't say about tournaments but in recent TSM weekly scrim matches she has been making a splash as the "new" akali mid.

[Psyborg]

Fiora: Looks UP, slight cooldown buff on ultimate, no tournament play.

Moscow 5 has run Fiora several times in multiple tournaments.

[Laudandus]

Hecarim and Diana have both seen tournament play in Korea, and I'm fairly sure Diana isn't available in most of the NA tournaments so far.

As to Rengar, most bruisers on release get cries of OP from especially lower elos; It later generally turns out that they're worse than Irelia. I expect Rengar to be the same, as from what I've seen of him he doesn't seem to be particularly powerful.

[Dallas-Dakota]

Then why is she so horrendously underplayed? There must be some reason that she is almost NEVER seen and even when she does make an appearance it is usually to calls of trollpick.
Because her playstyle is really different from any other champion, Leblanc coming the closest.(Who is also underplayed, whenever she doesn't get a big numbers buff from Riot trying to make more people play her)

She doesn't specialise as much in healing as say, Soraka, or buffing allies through the shield as Janna. I would say she is one of the best supports out there along with the two abovementioned champions. The difference being is that Karma requires a very high skill level, especially in macro, with excellent macro awareness and a team which knows well how she works.(With no other support I would go in first, in lane, as ad carry, but with a good Karma, I can. For the fact that she both has a percentage based heal and a shield which both deal aoe damage, it can be very easy to bait enemies into bad battles.)

So because of low demand(doesn't focus in anything), rather unique playstyle/high skill-level making her not that accesable and hard to play well, the fact that she does work so much better if she only gets a scrap of minion kills, which isn't going to happen with the 0 CS Support meta, and requiring a team that knows what they're doing with her nearby(Because it takes a lot more to know how fast Karma can make you go for how long and in what direction then say, Soraka ult for +XXX amount of HP) she is underplayed, even though she's pretty good.

[Eldariel]

Then why is she so horrendously underplayed? There must be some reason that she is almost NEVER seen and even when she does make an appearance it is usually to calls of trollpick.

Yeah, there's community unconsciousness about her. She requires specific teamcomps (she goes really well in bruiser line-ups), she requires a weird skillset to play, she's literally unplayed so nobody can pick her up on that front and yeah.

Remember back when e.g. old Evelynn (the OP-nerfed-a-dozen-times Evelynn) went unplayed for half a year? Or how Karthus needed two years to start seeing tournament play in spite of being superstrong all the time? Or how Vladimir was deemed underpowered on release?


The community is very much so fallible and every community opinion should be taken with more than a grain of salt. The community takes a long time to adjust and to pick stuff up, and to properly assess everything (latest point; how many people rushed Abyssal before Froggen showed just how strong stacked MPen is early game? Everyone knew the theory and still nobody did it).


Can't say about tournaments but in recent TSM weekly scrim matches she has been making a splash as the "new" akali mid.

She's played a lot in Korea, both at NiceGameTV showmatches and OGN LoL. She's really good. And Fiora is played significantly and all.

[Joran]

Moscow 5 has run Fiora several times in multiple tournaments.

I stand corrected. I've only seen them recently in Season 2 European Regionals, where they ran roughshod over everyone else, and alas no Fiora. :(


Hecarim and Diana have both seen tournament play in Korea, and I'm fairly sure Diana isn't available in most of the NA tournaments so far.

Stand corrected again. Ridiculously excited to see how the Koreans play against the rest of the world.

[Godskook]

Vlad makes himself nearly impossible to kill, Karma makes everybody nearly impossible to kill. Both do a lot of AOE damage while at it. Not the same champ but similar functions on a macro-level.

1.You're over generalizing to make a point. AoE+Difficult to kill describes Galio, Cho'Gath, and quite a few others.

2.You're ignoring the laning phase, where being nearly immune to ganking just...changes the game for Vlad in ways that Karma's kit can't replicate.

--------------------------

In other news, a quick pointer for everyone who's not familiar with jungle:

When assisting with Wolves, staying in XP-range(or stealing a small wolf) when they die denies your jungler XP, and while it may not seem like much immediately, it will deny him lvl 4 at the 'normal' time, slowing him down and typically preventing him from ganking as soon as normal since most junglers wait till lvl 4 to get their 'good for ganks' skill.

[toasty]

Even post rework, eve is crap.

Vman7, the only real "eve" main out there claims she's worse now. :smalltongue:

I don't think there is really any way to make Eve viable and give her an actually useful stealth. I remember pre-nerf eve, it was terribly annoying. Usually not very good, but annoying.

@Regnar: He seems alright. I don't think he's over powered. His burst is good, but his CC is bad and his sustained damage... doesn't seem particularly useful. I feel like I don't know what to do with him in teamfights. Go for the carry... eh, you can do that I guess, especially with Ult, but afterwards? Meh, nothing much to do. You kinda explode. He's not like most Bruisers where you have some sort of additional utility. He seems like, in theory, he should be a good jungler, but apparently that doesn't work out as well as it seems, so its not really worth playing him as a jungler. But Top Laner's can't gank and he really wants to gank. So... mid-lane bruiser? :smallbiggrin:

I really do like his kit though. Riot has gotten really good at making good, solid, fun kits. But he probably needs to see some number adjustments to make his jungle more similar to nocturne, that would make him a solid jungler.

Also: His passive is... I don't like it. Its very clunky. I click a lot so I have a tendency to accidently proc it in teamfights or stuff. Its nearly gotten me killed at least once. >_>

[MCerberus]

I think the only recent rework that... worked... has been the MANLY MAN.


Anyway, topic of the day: people are seemingly being banned for spamming false reports.

[lord_khaine]

Anyway, topic of the day: people are seemingly being banned for spamming false reports.

Ok, this would really make my day, if it applied to those guys who constantly shout for reports towards random members of their team, whenever they lost.

[ex cathedra]

1.You're over generalizing to make a point. AoE+Difficult to kill describes Galio, Cho'Gath, and quite a few others.
Well, Karma provides that to your entire team and no one else can really claim that aside from AP Soraka and AP Janna. AP Soraka's AoE heal is on, like, ten times Karma's, and Janna's is really difficult to use properly and relies on you CCing yourself.


2.You're ignoring the laning phase, where being nearly immune to ganking just...changes the game for Vlad in ways that Karma's kit can't replicate.

How is this relevant at all? Firstly, Vlad has bad matchups against a variety of jungle picks. Secondly, you're either comparing Vlad's mid lane match-ups to Karma's (hint: a lot of them are actually quite good for Karma, and many of her worst matchups are underplayed) or you're comparing one champion's mid lane MUs to one champion's top lane MUs, which is frankly a useless comparison.

Equally irrelevant counterpoint: You're ignoring Karma's ability to assist her allies, where being able to W+shieldbomb your ulting Shyvana/Kennen changes the game for Karma in ways that Vlad's kit can't replicate.

Eld's point was likely that Vlad's viability is due primarily to his resiliency to damage, and resiliency is an attribute that Karma provides to your entire team.

Anyways, Karma-based teams are really fun to play, in my opinion. As mentioned, she works quite well with both Shyvana and Kennen, but she's also quite good with Alistar, Graves, and pretty much every gap-closing bruiser in the game.

[Godskook]

Well, Karma provides that to your entire team and no one else can really claim that aside from AP Soraka and AP Janna. AP Soraka's AoE heal is on, like, ten times Karma's, and Janna's is really difficult to use properly and relies on you CCing yourself.

And your point here is completely irrelevant to the topic, since the topic is "Karma is Vlad for your team"


How is this relevant at all? Firstly, Vlad has bad matchups against a variety of jungle picks. Secondly, you're either comparing Vlad's mid lane match-ups to Karma's (hint: a lot of them are actually quite good for Karma, and many of her worst matchups are underplayed) or you're comparing one champion's mid lane MUs to one champion's top lane MUs, which is frankly a useless comparison.

But its not a comparison I made, Eld made it. I'm just forcing the comparison's finer points to the surface, cause frankly, I agree with you, comparing Vlad and Karma as dissimilar enough that comparing them is completely useless.

Equally irrelevant counterpoint: Vlad goes mid and Karma goes top regularly enough on both sides(relative to times I've seen them at all).


Equally irrelevant counterpoint: You're ignoring Karma's ability to assist her allies, where being able to W+shieldbomb your ulting Shyvana/Kennen changes the game for Karma in ways that Vlad's kit can't replicate.

1.I'm not ignoring it, its simply an inherent part of my point.

2.Its my point that Karma can do things Vlad can't(and vice versa).

[ex cathedra]

And your point here is completely irrelevant to the topic, since the topic is "Karma is Vlad for your team"
That seems like a basic misrepresentation at this point, considering:

Vlad makes himself nearly impossible to kill, Karma makes everybody nearly impossible to kill. Both do a lot of AOE damage while at it. Not the same champ but similar functions on a macro-level.
Emphasis mine.

[LordShotGun]

I think the only recent rework that... worked... has been the MANLY MAN.


I would say that the shen rework fixed all of his problems and the subsequent nerfs brought him down from his perma banned place.

[Mattarias, King.]

:smallbiggrin: Aaw, so much Karma love. Yay!

:smallamused: I'm going to have to add that:

1: A Karma with her cooldowns up is ridiculously hard to gank.

2: She's hilariously effective in the jungle as well. :smalltongue: Maybe I'm weird, but I swear, it works. I started it in the old jungle- My friends got SO mad at the fact that I was effective. "Troll pick" indeed.

[Boowells]

2: She's hilariously effective in the jungle as well. :smalltongue: Maybe I'm weird, but I swear, it works. I started it in the old jungle- My friends got SO mad at the fact that I was effective. "Troll pick" indeed.

I would say maybe not so much. Her jungle clear speed is probably really good, but she eats up mana so fast that you might want a non-mana-based mid champ.

[Eldariel]

1.I'm not ignoring it, its simply an inherent part of my point.

2.Its my point that Karma can do things Vlad can't(and vice versa).

Of course they're different champions; I said the whole "She makes your whole team Vladimir. If Vlad's a good pick, Karma's even better." tongue in the cheek. Pardon if it didn't carry over. Karma does, however, basically do The Vlad to your whole team.

Basically, Vlad's deal is that if he doesn't get bursted down he never goes down and he's hard to burst down. Karma gives that kind of resilience to everybody in her team since her shield and healing aren't personal-only. Whether Karma is truly better than Vlad? For some compositions, certainly. Globally? Of course not; Karma does have cooldown problems early on since her Mantra requires CDR to reach some reasonable cooldown rate. I am, however, saying that they share many of the qualities that make Vlad popular, except Karma can extend said qualities to her teammates.

ARAM showcases her talents perfectly; not only does she nuke rather well and remain insanely hard to kill, she also makes it superhard for the enemy to get any kills. While ARAM is, of course, a different game it is basically a constant 5v5 teamfight. She's a boss there (also, she lanes quite well with insane pushing power, decent sustain and decent harass).

[MCerberus]

Ok, this would really make my day, if it applied to those guys who constantly shout for reports towards random members of their team, whenever they lost.

Yah, a lot of people were getting banned, so the tribunal forum had people assemble the body and header data from the emails from the banned.

Then a red post came in and confirmed it.

[ex cathedra]

She's a boss there (also, she lanes quite well with insane pushing power, decent sustain and decent harass).

The 1250 effective range on shield-bomb is really quite ludicrous once you start full-clearing caster minion waves with it. After four E ranks, blue buff Karma is pretty much immovable in lane.

[NineThePuma]

Vman7, the only real "eve" main out there claims she's worse now. :smalltongue:

I don't think there is really any way to make Eve viable and give her an actually useful stealth. I remember pre-nerf eve, it was terribly annoying. Usually not very good, but annoying.

I agree that she's worse. The lack of Shread and shorter range on her E makes her damage overall lower. The changes to her Q are an all around nerf IMHO (Before it was a guaranteed hit to 2 enemies, while now it's unlikely for you to hit more than one... it's also a frighteningly stupid projectile overall, for all they claimed it was intelligent). Her new W is a downgraded version of her Ult, but the lack of heal on kills makes her tower diving much less worth it.

The lack of CC (hard or soft) is terrible; she's stupidly red dependent and you can practically ward red and know when all her ganks will be.

While her Ult is pretty cool and new, it's definitely difficult to use. It adds to her team fight viability, but I just never know when to use it. It's an initiation tool, but it's wasted on ganks.

[Chess435]

Lyte is now my favorite Red after today's events....:smallbiggrin:

[sonofzeal]

Lyte is now my favorite Red after today's events....:smallbiggrin:
I heard that they're now banning people who "abused the report system", but it seems controversial. Where can I learn more?

[Chess435]

I heard that they're now banning people who "abused the report system", but it seems controversial. Where can I learn more?

Ask and you shall receive. (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2502809)

[MCerberus]

Lyte is now my favorite Red after today's events....:smallbiggrin:

Next red post button never fails to deliver.

[Forrestfire]

So... after reading the last pages in thread, I decided to buy Karma with some leftover IP. I played her in a custom game to test her stuff, then took her mid in a normal with a friend.

I had a blast! :smallbiggrin: She is really strong in lane from what I played. Especially since I has at a disadvantage (our Rengar's jump glitched his first gank and gave their Swain a kill), but I still managed to outfarm him and pretty much outlane him.

So yeah, I had a lot of fun winning bot lane, but everything changed when bot lane attacked. Our Teemo/Sona pair had managed to feed about 10 kills in 20 minutes to a Riven and Janna :smallannoyed:

[Chess435]

Next red post button never fails to deliver.

Except when a red deletes their post. :smallfrown: Then it breaks.

[Douglas]

Some of the posts in that thread reminded me of something: does reporting someone for "unskilled player" ever actually result in a punishment? I seem to recall Riot having an official policy that being bad at the game is not a reportable offense, so my guess for a long time has been that the "unskilled player" report option is really there just to identify people who never got the memo on that issue, and Riot actually just dumps all reports with that as the selected reason. Is my guess at all close to the truth?

[Chess435]

Some of the posts in that thread reminded me of something: does reporting someone for "unskilled player" ever actually result in a punishment? I seem to recall Riot having an official policy that being bad at the game is not a reportable offense, so my guess for a long time has been that the "unskilled player" report option is really there just to identify people who never got the memo on that issue, and Riot actually just dumps all reports with that as the selected reason. Is my guess at all close to the truth?

Unskilled player reports mean very little, if anything. The option's there to prevent false "Intentional feeding" and "Assisting Enemy team" reports.


Also, all of my want. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lle2KWMZklA&feature=player_embedded)

[Godskook]

This one kinda got me:


Today was actually my day off. :(

[toasty]

Some of the posts in that thread reminded me of something: does reporting someone for "unskilled player" ever actually result in a punishment?

No. But it does make me feel better.

[Psyborg]

Unskilled player reports mean very little, if anything. The option's there to prevent false "Intentional feeding" and "Assisting Enemy team" reports.


Also, all of my want. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lle2KWMZklA&feature=player_embedded)
I think Unskilled Player reports from Normal games have a very, very, very small effect on Normal ELO (only- obviously if this affected Ranked ELO it'd be all kinds of abusable).

Also, all of my want too :smallbiggrin:

This one kinda got me:
I'm in awe of the dedication of most of the Riot staff. It's...unbelievable, the amount of extra voluntary time they put in on the forums just because they love the game and (most of) its players. And I'm fairly confident it _is_ voluntary, given how irregularly and inconsistently it happens- if they were being pressured at all, it'd happen more predictably.

[NineThePuma]

This one is hilarious to me. (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=28526896#28526896)

[MCerberus]

This one is hilarious to me. (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=28526896#28526896)

You should see the ones on the tribunal forum, they're so angry that they don't recognize very easy logic traps.

[TechnOkami]

Also, all of my want. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lle2KWMZklA&feature=player_embedded)

If that's really going to be a PAX only skin, I would be incredibly sad. That by far is the best Sona skin I've seen, and considering she's the only Support I like to play as (or can, really), I would absolutely love that skin.

[Chess435]

@SweetRein: If you run into Lyte at the office, could you please tell him thank you on our behalf? Or anyone on the PB&J team, really.

[Reinboom]

Except when a red deletes their post. :smallfrown: Then it breaks.

This should be fixed now, for any thread after a few days ago.


@SweetRein: If you run into Lyte at the office, could you please tell him thank you on our behalf? Or anyone on the PB&J team, really.

Certainly. The team has some wonderful folks on it. :smallsmile:

[TheShrike]

I've heard that too. Nasus ult deals percentage damage to enemy champions. The ult had 1:1 AP ratio. It didn't increase the damage, but the percentage... I can't find a mention or a video of it, maybe it's just a legend.

It was back in Beta, and it was hotfixed within a couple hours.

[Boowells]

@SweetRein: If you run into Lyte at the office, could you please tell him thank you on our behalf? Or anyone on the PB&J team, really.

Good guy Lyte. Ugh, I didn't read the whole thread, but a huge number of the kneejerk responses was perhaps understandable, but highly unnecessary.

[Godskook]

Ok, starting to get the hang of jungle Rengar(and getting lanes that don't feed 3 kills by the time I hit lvl 4, but that's only slightly related).

Right now I'm starting Q>W>E, max W, secondary E. Reason being that even when I want to double-Q, there's so little bonus damage there from ranks, I wind up getting more benefit from the reduced CDs, which allows me to keep ferocity stacks up more often. Q-max seemed like the no-brainer choice at first glance, but after some thought and playtesting, W-max just works better. Plus, you feel less 'bad' when you gotta blow ferocity on something other than Q, while ferocity Qs are still quite great(that AD ratio is absurd).

Starting boots+3, 16/14/0, AD marks/quints, choice blues and obviously armor seals.

Rengar can start wolves>blue or wraiths>red, but his clear speed early is lackluster, as is his health retention, so starting red will speed you up and get you red for lvl 6 ganks(when Rengar really starts being a dangerous ganker).

Right now, my core on him is Mercs>Avarice/HoG>BTNecklace/Phage

From there, I usually complete the Mallet on him, since there's almost nothing about it he doesn't like a lot. After that, support's usually roaming, so I consider if I want to ditch my ward-slot for GA, or start completing ghostblade/omen.

Gank-wise, Rengar's got one really strong feature compared to most junglers, and that's the fact that he can get old-Eve close to enemies before jumping them, THROUGH GREEN WARDS. On the downside, he's got zero hard CC(Ferocity gets him a snare, and that's it), so he relies on his laners more than other junglers do.

[sonofzeal]

@SweetRein: If you run into Lyte at the office, could you please tell him thank you on our behalf? Or anyone on the PB&J team, really.
Certainly. The team has some wonderful folks on it. :smallsmile:
Pass one along for me too. I used to help moderate a forum of over 38,000, and I'm very well acquainted with the tendency of users to almost willfully misunderstand any action a mod takes and decry it as THE WORST POSSIBLE THING (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--1x3XfNz2bk/Tu5P85v3YLI/AAAAAAAAAJo/EmvOMqUt5Pg/s1600/rarity___the_worst_possible_thing_by_nekosrocks-d4fqvit.jpg)... and our userbase has nothing on yours for that area. Just reading through some of those recent threads about the bannings gave me major PTSD flashbacks. People seem determined not to read a word Lyte actually says, and somehow jump to the conclusion that they're mass-banning anyone who'd ever made an unsuccessful report or somesuch.

So, kudos. If there's any way I can personally sponsor him (and the others who have to deal with customers personally) for a box of cookies, let me know. Not even joking. Give me an address, here or in PM, and literal physical real-world cookies will be sent.

[Talesin]

Ok, this would really make my day, if it applied to those guys who constantly shout for reports towards random members of their team, whenever they lost.

An amusing aside to this was a game I played earlier. Vlad top, Kennen mid, my friend jungling WW and i'm bot with a crazy aggressive corki as Janna.

Kennen dies mid at level 4 but kills his Kat, ofc Kat's a "lucker". He kills her at level 6 then level 8 but dies at level 9. This time its WW's fault for not "ulting mid lane wtf noob".

During a teamfight around our mid tower our corki Valk's over the wall into the bush and gets himself killed attempting to chase for a kill (He's 9 1 1 at this point), which gets Vlad and Kennen killed chasing him. The Kennen blames me for not warding the bush next to our tower, I tell him he's talking crap and he then blames Corki for diving over the wall and Vlad for following and getting him killed.

A WW ult in a later team fight lands on the crazy fed Kat, 12 x x at this point, and Riven kills Kennen and clears up the teamfight. Again its WW's fault for this. We turn it around and start winning after I manage to flash ult a team fight breaking Nunu, Kat and MF's ults and the Kennen chewed me out a little (before my team came to my rescue) for ulting people away from his damage.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't with some people..

[Mephit]

Also, all of my want. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lle2KWMZklA&feature=player_embedded)

I need this skin. I must have it. :o

Is anyone of you going to PAX? Last I checked, the skin codes were still re-usable on other servers, so I'd love to get one for my account on EUW.

Oh, there's a new PBE patch if no one mentioned it yet. The changes with the most impact in my eyes are nerfs to Ezreal's W, Corki, a lot of dash abilities, Diana, and Alistair.

[PersonMan]

Played AD carry again.

Somehow I outfarmed a Blitz/Ashe lane (I was Trist, with a Nidalee supporting) with a ping that hung around 500 on average. Then I went 6/0/2.

Enter teamfights. Enemy Galio is fed, enemy Vlad somehow won his lane vs Malph. Our Rengar DCs.

We kept having small fights that I can't contribute in because my ping goes up to 800 until we eventually surrendered.

[Mephit]

That's why I switched servers, ping is sometimes so important in teamfights. Losing control of your character for a split second lategame can cost you the game.

[PersonMan]

That's why I switched servers, ping is sometimes so important in teamfights. Losing control of your character for a split second lategame can cost you the game.

It was more of a 'my internet was being terrible at that moment' issue, as I was on EUW. I regularly play on NA (for a long time I only played on it, due to the better communication, then I played on EUW again because a local friend of mine started playing and remembered that 30 ping is better than 130), so I can farm and do pretty well with one to two hundred ish ping. The problem was that it was generally either fine or absurd (over 300 is basically unplayable for me).

[lord_khaine]

Btw, does anyone know when the next tournament machup is going to be streamed?

[mrcarter11]

I guess it's finally time to be added.

Username is Mrcarter11
Server is NA

I don't have a mic or anything, and I've discovered my cam mic won't work with LoL running so that's a fail, but happy to play the game with anyone.

[Eldariel]

Btw, does anyone know when the next tournament machup is going to be streamed?

Campus Party is being streamed right now :smalltongue: Tomorrow at 11:30 GMT there's OGN LoL match between Najin Sword & CLG.EU.

[ex cathedra]

Tournament games of one sort of another are streamed on an almost weekly basis. However, the next two major tournaments are MLG and the NA Regionals at Pax Prime, which begin tomorrow and a week from tomorrow, respectively.

[NineThePuma]

PBE patch has Evelynn buffs. Slightly larger range on E, lower cooldown on W, lower cooldown on R.

Not sure if it'll be enough.

[Saph]

Finally started playing Ranked, and the first few games felt really easy. I'd been expecting it to be harder than normal solo.

I've also found a way to make the support role fun: you play Blitzcrank. :smallbiggrin: Previously I played Janna and kept being bored out of my mind because no matter how good her abilities are, it's really hard to stay interested when you spend half your time sitting behind your AD carry shielding them. But with Blitz, yanking opponents over to you and watching them explode as your team focuses them is absolutely hilarious. He's my new second-favourite champion after Ahri.

Having played a few games with Blitz, the interesting thing I'm noticing is just how well all his abilities synergise. His knockup is perfect for following his grab, his static blast is perfect for following his knockup, and his overdrive is perfect for chasing down a runner afterwards or for getting into position. I can see why he's such a common ban at higher elo ranks – even without a single item he's a huge threat.

[Mephit]

Have you tried Leona? :smallamused:

Arcade Sona will be available in the stores according to Phreak. My League experience is now complete.

[Saph]

Have you tried Leona? :smallamused:

Nope, haven't been able to afford her yet. I've heard her compared to Blitz a lot though.

[Lix Lorn]

@SweetRein: If you run into Lyte at the office, could you please tell him thank you on our behalf? Or anyone on the PB&J team, really.


Certainly. The team has some wonderful folks on it. :smallsmile:
Hey, SweetRein, if you run into SweetRein, can you thank her for us? She's really sweet and helpful in the playground LoL thread. :smallsmile::smallbiggrin:


I need this skin. I must have it. :o

Is anyone of you going to PAX? Last I checked, the skin codes were still re-usable on other servers, so I'd love to get one for my account on EUW.
Comments in the video said it's not an exclusive skin[/OrSoIHear]


Oh, there's a new PBE patch if no one mentioned it yet. The changes with the most impact in my eyes are nerfs to Ezreal's W, Corki, a lot of dash abilities, Diana, and Alistair.
...nerfs to his W?
But
I
wha? :smallconfused:

[LordShotGun]

Finally started playing Ranked, and the first few games felt really easy. I'd been expecting it to be harder than normal solo.

I've also found a way to make the support role fun: you play Blitzcrank. :smallbiggrin: Previously I played Janna and kept being bored out of my mind because no matter how good her abilities are, it's really hard to stay interested when you spend half your time sitting behind your AD carry shielding them. But with Blitz, yanking opponents over to you and watching them explode as your team focuses them is absolutely hilarious. He's my new second-favourite champion after Ahri.

Having played a few games with Blitz, the interesting thing I'm noticing is just how well all his abilities synergise. His knockup is perfect for following his grab, his static blast is perfect for following his knockup, and his overdrive is perfect for chasing down a runner afterwards or for getting into position. I can see why he's such a common ban at higher elo ranks – even without a single item he's a huge threat.

Only problem with blitz is that he gets banned on a regular basis as your climb the ladder. This is not the case with Leona and while she is subpar to blitz she is still damn good for kills lanes like corki and graves.

[Mephit]

Nope, haven't been able to afford her yet. I've heard her compared to Blitz a lot though.

She's similar, but even more agressive. Just like Blitz, Leona can easily force plays in their lane, which makes it really fun to play her. (and him)





...nerfs to his W?
But
I
wha? :smallconfused:

Why not? The reason he's so good right now is because of his W that got buffed a while back.
Honestly, any nerf is fine because I'm tired of seeing him. :smallannoyed:

[Ivellius]

...nerfs to his W?
But
I
wha? :smallconfused:

The base damage is going down, but he's getting an additional .1 AP ratio on it. So it's actually a buff for AP Ezreal.

His W probably needed a nerf for AD carry Ezreal; it's pretty strong in lane.

[Mattarias, King.]

So... after reading the last pages in thread, I decided to buy Karma with some leftover IP. I played her in a custom game to test her stuff, then took her mid in a normal with a friend.

I had a blast! :smallbiggrin: She is really strong in lane from what I played. Especially since I has at a disadvantage (our Rengar's jump glitched his first gank and gave their Swain a kill), but I still managed to outfarm him and pretty much outlane him.

So yeah, I had a lot of fun winning bot lane, but everything changed when bot lane attacked. Our Teemo/Sona pair had managed to feed about 10 kills in 20 minutes to a Riven and Janna :smallannoyed:

:smallbiggrin:Yay! Glad you like her. Yeah, she's great. Though even she can't turn around a lane's feeding. Usually.

I have to second Leona as a fun support. :smallbiggrin: She knows how to get the enemy to sit down and eat their tons of damage vegetables.

[Eldariel]

Finally started playing Ranked, and the first few games felt really easy. I'd been expecting it to be harder than normal solo.

I've also found a way to make the support role fun: you play Blitzcrank. :smallbiggrin: Previously I played Janna and kept being bored out of my mind because no matter how good her abilities are, it's really hard to stay interested when you spend half your time sitting behind your AD carry shielding them. But with Blitz, yanking opponents over to you and watching them explode as your team focuses them is absolutely hilarious. He's my new second-favourite champion after Ahri.

Having played a few games with Blitz, the interesting thing I'm noticing is just how well all his abilities synergise. His knockup is perfect for following his grab, his static blast is perfect for following his knockup, and his overdrive is perfect for chasing down a runner afterwards or for getting into position. I can see why he's such a common ban at higher elo ranks – even without a single item he's a huge threat.

If you're at all above average, the first games are fairly easy. You basically play 10 placement matches; you start the games at a "newbie island" and are then placed based on your performance. It's worth noting that the first games have a huge emphasis far as point swings go so it's worth bringing your A-game; you can get very high if you do well just a couple of games (though of course, it can be kinda a culture shock if you end up above your own level as a consequence; but elo is a self-correcting system so that problem won't last too long).

Best of luck in your ranked expeditions! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Realized I was a bit unclear. Basically, in Normals you have a hidden matchmaking statistic to match you up against players of your level. Ranked starts you off at 1200 elo again. So basically, you have to reach your level again in Ranked (though again, thanks to the newbie island, this is a fairly fast project)

[MonarchAnarch]

Back to the important stuff...

IS anyone going to PAX? Would love a sona arcade skin!! I freaking love playing ad sona on dom with my buddies. Its never expected!

[NineThePuma]

Where IS Pax?

EDIT: It's right in my home city, but it's sold out completely.

If I thought I could get past security and into the Riot Booth, I'd do it.

[Lix Lorn]

The base damage is going down, but he's getting an additional .1 AP ratio on it. So it's actually a buff for AP Ezreal.

His W probably needed a nerf for AD carry Ezreal; it's pretty strong in lane.
Ahhhhh. I still level it last from when everyone said it sucked.

[MonarchAnarch]

Ninja repel in via the ceiling windows. You can do it.

[Joran]

So, I tried out the Yorick/Urgot bottom lane of HARASS ALL THE THINGS. And promptly got blind picked into opposing Ezreal/Soraka.

That ended poorly. The harass didn't stick and Ezreal could just farm whatever he wanted. ;_;

[MCerberus]

So, I tried out the Yorick/Urgot bottom lane of HARASS ALL THE THINGS. And promptly got blind picked into opposing Ezreal/Soraka.

That ended poorly. The harass didn't stick and Ezreal could just farm whatever he wanted. ;_;

I once was blind pick as Supportibear into an opposing Teemo/Cait lane. Luckily... they were kinda stupid.

[Eldariel]

So, I tried out the Yorick/Urgot bottom lane of HARASS ALL THE THINGS. And promptly got blind picked into opposing Ezreal/Soraka.

That ended poorly. The harass didn't stick and Ezreal could just farm whatever he wanted. ;_;

This is why I suggest e.g. Urgot/Taric instead. Soraka or no Soraka, that'll be too much damage for them to handle.

[TechnOkami]

Arcade Sona will be available in the stores according to Phreak. My League experience is now complete.

This is the best news I've heard all thread.

[Joran]

This is why I suggest e.g. Urgot/Taric instead. Soraka or no Soraka, that'll be too much damage for them to handle.

Dazzle->Shatter + Urgot's E and then Q, Q, Q?

Would Leona work as well?

[Eldariel]

Dazzle->Shatter + Urgot's E and then Q, Q, Q?


Exactly. Well, in general, Dazzle -> Corrosive Charge. All the rest is frill tho the damage multiplication of Shatter is pretty awesome.


Would Leona work as well?

Kinda, but Taric's W and Ult give more damage (especially since Urgots rush Brutalizer) than Leona's passive. Also, Taric being able to casually stun from range to enable Urgot to land a harass combo even in the face of enemy jungler or in general when outnumbered, and having Armor steroid for Urgot too (who's already very tanky and has an inherent shield which counts for a lot of effective HP) and having a heal for sustain just makes Urgot/Taric more versatile in laning. Make no mistake, Urgot/Leona does hurt like a truck just as well.


Urgot/Soraka, Urgot/Taric and Urgot/Janna are my preferred Urgot-lanes tho. Soraka for infinite mana, Taric for stun + Shatter + Ulti, Janna for Gale/Zephyr for ease of landing stuff and Shield for a massive damage steroid (granted, it was better during the brief Bonus AD Scaling Urgot-period).

[ChaosOS]

Pretty much. I still feel leona has stronger burst for a 100-0 strategy, but taric's stuns are definitely better as urgot relies on landing E's and whittling his opponent's down first before going in for the kill.

[Kairaven]

So much Evelyn dislike here.

I know my opinions isn't worth squat here but she has improved by a lot with the remake. Her q now actually does some damage and you actually have some control over its targeting. New w offers better utility than old stealth, and the new ult allows her to participate in team fights. Her one cc (slow) used to be tied to her stealth, and if you were lucky, you can slow two champion with an old q. Now that her slow is tied to her ult, I will take group slow and a 300~1500 damage absorb shield anytime over her old cc.

Her overall burst damage might be lower, but her survivability no longer depend on a single stealth spell, plus she can actually farm now, whether in lane or (faster) jungle. Not like a single-spell-clear-entire-wave farm, but still more than what she had before.

My only complaint on new Eve was the spell CD and looks like they are changing it in PBE.

With the changes in PBE I think she'll finally hit the right balance, not OP like everyone is expecting, but not "Tier old Evelyn" like everyone still claims.

[Werekat]

Preamble: I usually play ranged - my two favorites are Orianna and Ashe, Ori being my more-often-played and better champion. I've recently picked up Garen, though, trying to learn tanking.

It's been hellish. I can't get used to having to get in melee range, much less score kills besides accidental ones.

Has anyone been in such a situation? Any tips for a newbie melee - what to watch for, how to chase, how to get in range without being focused early?

[ChaosOS]

Garen is notorious for having problems being kited, but some general tips:

1. Use brush. A lot. Assuming you're doing standard meta top lane, any ranged foes that aren't kennen have to get dangerously close to the brush to hit you or into the brush, and even then you can just zone kennen out entirely from CS if he's trying to harass you. Mid-late game brush prevents carries from AAing you unless someone else is in the brush with you, which means you can hit them.

2. Try using your Q to break any slows that might be on you, or if they don't have any slows use it to gap close. Press W before you start taking damage, and when you get reasonably on top of a person press E. Ult when you can secure a kill

Generally though, it's itemization for MS that's going to be critical, or simply the threat of zoning a carry out of a fight.

[Lix Lorn]

Preamble: I usually play ranged - my two favorites are Orianna and Ashe, Ori being my more-often-played and better champion. I've recently picked up Garen, though, trying to learn tanking.

It's been hellish. I can't get used to having to get in melee range, much less score kills besides accidental ones.

Has anyone been in such a situation? Any tips for a newbie melee - what to watch for, how to chase, how to get in range without being focused early?
Garen's not a tank. He's a bruiser. If you build him as a tank, they can and will ignore you. He needs to build AD to be useful, really.

[MonarchAnarch]

Preamble: I usually play ranged - my two favorites are Orianna and Ashe, Ori being my more-often-played and better champion. I've recently picked up Garen, though, trying to learn tanking.

It's been hellish. I can't get used to having to get in melee range, much less score kills besides accidental ones.

Has anyone been in such a situation? Any tips for a newbie melee - what to watch for, how to chase, how to get in range without being focused early?

I've been playing alot of Jayce, so constantly going from ranged to melee, I see what you are saying. IF you find yourself alone to get that last hit in to kill, stop and turn around. They are running to help..and you will have none.

If you are out numbered, don't jump in. Ping a spot for your team to meet you or head to a tower.

If you have a way to stun/debuff, hit those first then dive in with your team. Always have someone with you..rarely should you go alone, no matter who you are.

Stun/slowdowns can be used to create distance. Use the defensively.

I can't give you any garen tips, as I don't play him. Hope these little bits helped.

[Eldariel]

Preamble: I usually play ranged - my two favorites are Orianna and Ashe, Ori being my more-often-played and better champion. I've recently picked up Garen, though, trying to learn tanking.

It's been hellish. I can't get used to having to get in melee range, much less score kills besides accidental ones.

Has anyone been in such a situation? Any tips for a newbie melee - what to watch for, how to chase, how to get in range without being focused early?

I was in pretty much the exact same situation. The tricks I've learned are:
- Make them come to you. This ranges from sitting in a brush and ambushing to protecting some target the enemies want to go for.
- Flash on them. This is what you generally do when you know you can kill, especially in a teamfight. Flash on the squishy, silence, spin, ult.
- Chase when they're low and you're sure they don't get help and you can catch them. Melee is generally faster than range so you just must know there's no tower you can't afford to dive/enemy surprises.

Also, Garen is kinda a harsh learning environment since he doesn't have a gap closer. Most melee champs can jump on the enemy; Garen has to run (tho he is fairly fast).

[Poison_Fish]

I was in pretty much the exact same situation. The tricks I've learned are:
- Make them come to you. This ranges from sitting in a brush and ambushing to protecting some target the enemies want to go for.
- Flash on them. This is what you generally do when you know you can kill, especially in a teamfight. Flash on the squishy, silence, spin, ult.
- Chase when they're low and you're sure they don't get help and you can catch them. Melee is generally faster than range so you just must know there's no tower you can't afford to dive/enemy surprises.

Also, Garen is kinda a harsh learning environment since he doesn't have a gap closer. Most melee champs can jump on the enemy; Garen has to run (tho he is fairly fast).

Pretty much this. Wait until your just a bit close enough as Garen to use your Q (as that is a speed boost). Other melee have gap closers or some form of approaching (Riven's Q+E's, Irelia's dash, Trynd's spin, Rengar's bush leap, etc.).

[Kairaven]

Preamble: I usually play ranged - my two favorites are Orianna and Ashe, Ori being my more-often-played and better champion. I've recently picked up Garen, though, trying to learn tanking.

It's been hellish. I can't get used to having to get in melee range, much less score kills besides accidental ones.

Has anyone been in such a situation? Any tips for a newbie melee - what to watch for, how to chase, how to get in range without being focused early?

Melee against ranged is about the use of cover and movement, utilize bush more, approach fights from the sides of lanes through bushes/jungle/river.

In new Garen's case, his movement comes in the speed boost with Q which also now synergize with his E (to pass through minions) and his w (to reduce cc). The best thing about new garen is that you can activate Q and W while still spinning from E. (Spin to win indeed.)

Most melee have a good enough starting base number for you to start boots or armor and still be able to deal damge for trades.

Later on as you get familiar with positoning you can save you dash/speed boosts for escapes instead of initiating.

Only other thing is to be familiar with your lane opponent's raneg and cc ability. Did your opponent just use/miss his cc? now is the time for an attack/harrass if he's in your rush range.

[Chess435]

I come with good news!


AFAIK Arcade Sona will be equivalent to Metal Rammus:

Given out at a convention, but available to everyone.

Edit: Slowpoke.jpg I really need to catch up on the thread before posting, lol.

[ex cathedra]

So much Evelyn dislike here.

I know my opinions isn't worth squat here but she has improved by a lot with the remake. Her q now actually does some damage and you actually have some control over its targeting. New w offers better utility than old stealth, and the new ult allows her to participate in team fights. Her one cc (slow) used to be tied to her stealth, and if you were lucky, you can slow two champion with an old q. Now that her slow is tied to her ult, I will take group slow and a 300~1500 damage absorb shield anytime over her old cc.

Her overall burst damage might be lower, but her survivability no longer depend on a single stealth spell, plus she can actually farm now, whether in lane or (faster) jungle. Not like a single-spell-clear-entire-wave farm, but still more than what she had before.

My only complaint on new Eve was the spell CD and looks like they are changing it in PBE.

With the changes in PBE I think she'll finally hit the right balance, not OP like everyone is expecting, but not "Tier old Evelyn" like everyone still claims.

Her Q already did damage... it would also constantly hit two targets, and the new Q isn't nearly as reliable
Old W let her actually close gaps and gank people. New Eve just runs at people while they can see her; that's kind of a big deal. Why does Eve gank poorly? Old Eve had a stun out of stealth, and nerfed Eve at least had a large pre-6 slow. New Eve has zero CC pre-6 without burning exhaust or applying red (which requires you to be in melee already).

[Neoseanster]

AP Rengar should totally be a thing.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/5227/aprengar.jpg

First game was against Diana, won lane massively. Second game was against Morgana, had a little trouble from their jungler but was up by ~60 CS; then mid-game team fights rolled around, and I went from 0/3/4 to 3/3/6 and they surrendered. Third game was against Diana, had trouble from her in lane, but ganked more successfully, our bottom lane won, and we ended up winning after I caught Sona, Skarner caught Diana, and we got a free Baron for it. She was herself maybe 5/5/3 by end of game.

[TechnOkami]

AP Rengar should totally be a thing.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/5227/aprengar.jpg

First game was against Diana, won lane massively. Second game was against Morgana, had a little trouble from their jungler but was up by ~60 CS; then mid-game team fights rolled around, and I went from 0/3/4 to 3/3/6 and they surrendered. Third game was against Diana, had trouble from her in lane, but ganked more successfully, our bottom lane won, and we ended up winning after I caught Sona, Skarner caught Diana, and we got a free Baron for it. She was herself maybe 5/5/3 by end of game.

Does he actually scale better with AP? That's amusing.

[NineThePuma]

He's got a 1.0 AP ratio on his W, which is actually really cool. I level Q at 1, but max it last. =O

[Neoseanster]

He has a 1.0 on his W, and when you hit 5 ferocity you get a second cast of it, so he manages 2.0 AP burst, plus stealth and a gap closer on his ultimate to make for fairly brutal ganks. You can instaclear caster minions by level 5, and full waves by level 7, plus he's manaless and has strong sustain.

He does have a few problems, though. He kind of needs to overextend and use his only CC to get in range to harass, so you can make yourself vulnerable to jungle ganks if you aren't careful. In team fights he needs to get into melee range to let loose his burst and can't do too much after, so he can sometimes just be focused down. Still very effective if you let someone else be your primary initiation, though, and just chunk their squishies after the team's focus is elsewhere. It's like playing any other AP assassin.

[Godskook]

Does he actually scale better with AP? That's amusing.

No, he doesn't.

He scales less than badly with AP, since he's got a 2.0 AP burst ratio that's only tied to 1 skill and he's just a step away from being resourceless.

By "he should be a thing", I assume Neosanter meant more along the lines of a troll build, and even then, not a spectacularly viable one.

[Kairaven]

Her Q already did damage... it would also constantly hit two targets, and the new Q isn't nearly as reliable
Old W let her actually close gaps and gank people. New Eve just runs at people while they can see her; that's kind of a big deal. Why does Eve gank poorly? Old Eve had a stun out of stealth, and nerfed Eve at least had a large pre-6 slow. New Eve has zero CC pre-6 without burning exhaust or applying red (which requires you to be in melee already).

we are not comparing stun eve now, stun eve caused so much QQ that she got nerfed.

her old q did negligible damage, and half the times went to target minions instead of champions. her new q have much better damage and with proper positioning can hit more than two targets; 2~3 simple casts (1~2 at later ranks and build) allow me to clear more than half of a minion wave. I remember having to spam triple the amount of q's to clear just as much. And the passive mana regen lessens her mana issue provided you allow yourself to go stealth a bit in between waves (stealth timer also reduced in PBE I believe, which will help)

Using her W to dash from the edge of her stealth area to champion is 1.5 seconds at most, and right at the range of exhaust and flash. Unless you were seen because of bad position. Is it worse than total stealth? Yes, but no worse than non-stealth gankers. Her old slow was lack luster, you want to apply slow after enemy runs, not when they are dumbfounded by ambush. Which old eve ambsh means E then R then Q spam and hope for a kill. (Viable as AP but totally useless as AD) and if you don't get a kill or assist means you are out of luck until maybe your ult comes back off CD.

It also use to be that Eve have to go all damage items or she can't out put enough to secure a kill, which makes her ultra squishy. But it isn't the case now, she actually has some room to build defensive items and still be able to out put damage.

Now I am not saying she is an OP champ after remake, but to claim she's worse than before or still bottom tier is just old bias IMO. her damage combo is still about the same, but her postioning, movment, approach and to some extent her sustain style has changed, and I just think people are so steeped in old bias and game style that they don't want to try and learn a new game style with her.

[TechnOkami]

No, he doesn't.

He scales less than badly with AP, since he's got a 2.0 AP burst ratio that's only tied to 1 skill and he's just a step away from being resourceless.

By "he should be a thing", I assume Neosanter meant more along the lines of a troll build, and even then, not a spectacularly viable one.

I... knew that Godskook.

[Neoseanster]

Well, it's a troll build, but it actually does feel fairly viable.

It reminds me a lot of Sion, actually, in so far as the "outfarm and outpush many champions while being hard to force from lane, then go brutally gank" play style goes, only with less reliable CC but greater AoE damage and he actually has an ultimate.

I'd hardly say it's a super overpowered game changer, just quirky yet actually pretty decent seeming.

[MCerberus]

Don't you love those games when your AP mid and ADC combine for a 14/1/20? Just got out of a game where the enemy team goes 'oh look, their AP is stunning us and we are saaaaaaad, let's go dive Anivia and ignore their squishy squishy Vayne. It's not like the bird has a built-in GA or something'.

[TheShrike]

Regarding the Blitzcrank discussion of last page, I have seen Blitz banned in 8 of my 9 ranked games. He was picked in the last one. I have never seen Alistar open for picking (except one time when I managed to first pick him, and the other team immediately dodged). It's kind of annoying, really, since I'm pretty good at Alistar and not very good at other supports.

[Werekat]

Thank you for all your advice, folks. :) I'll take it to heart and go practice. :D I like champs that aren't easy to start with, so I'm hoping I do get him right soon.

Just had an absolutely wonderful night with my mains, though. :D Don't you just love forcing other mids from lane, time after brutal time? Poor, poor Veigar and Kassadin! And then kite-slow-protect-pull-get out alive. Gotta love the Orianna routine. :D

[Godskook]

I... knew that Godskook.

Your post lead me to believe you asked in sincerity, TechnOkami, so I answered in kind.

------------

Also, why do people forget about AP Maokai. I know he's not 'great', but his ratios and bases are both high enough that he's gotta have a match-up or two where he could work well enough.

He's got enough burst with his saplings that he should be able to 1-shot a wave by mid-game, and after that, go ganking before bad-pushing mid can respond, much like a Morgana or Galio would do.

[Forrestfire]

So... I just went jungle karma, since I have been playing her and she's fun.

Why did that work :smallconfused::smalleek:

Regrowth + potion start, into Philostone->boots->HoG->treads->warmogs->force of nature

I ended up 4/3/14 I think, because they just couldn't kill me, and shieldbombs are stupid powerful even without building AP.

I think the highlight of my game was when I was running through the jungle at about 1/3 health after I got my force of nature. Their rengar jumps me and I shield, but his total damage was about zero. Then he ran since he knew I could kill him before he could get me.

[ex cathedra]

we are not comparing stun eve now, stun eve caused so much QQ that she got nerfed.
I'll just remind you, then, that it was the common opinion that the Eve to which you're comparing new Eve was considered to have been nerfed into unviability. Saying that new Eve is at least as good as the worst champion in the game doesn't mean very much, but we'll work it out.


her old q did negligible damage, and half the times went to target minions instead of champions. her new q have much better damage and with proper positioning can hit more than two targets; 2~3 simple casts (1~2 at later ranks and build) allow me to clear more than half of a minion wave.
Don't make things up. Eve's old Q always hit the closest enemy target. If that enemy was a champion, it would thus always hit one champion with the first half of the spike. New spike also locks on to a single enemy, so let's compare the primary damage of the two skills.

Old Q: 85 + .42 AP @ 1.25 casts/second.
New Q: 120 + .45 AP + .4 bonus AD @ .667 casts/second.

Old Q: 106.25 + .525 AP DPS.
New Q: 80 + .3 AP + .267 bonus AD DPS.
That AD ratio is hard to account for, isn't it? Let's modify that a little bit by normalizing the AD/AP ratios. I'll just compare the amount of bonus AD you can buy with X gold to the amount of bonus AP that you can buy for the same amount of gold, which tells me that.... for every 1 point of AD you buy you could have purchased 1.833 points of AP. That is to say that 1 AD is worth .545 AP. Taking that into account, let's compare those numbers once more. This isn't an exact science, obviously, but it should give us a rough idea of their damage.

Old Q: 106.25 + .525 AP DPS.
New Q: 80 + .445 combined ratio DPS.

That is to say that old Q consistently did more single target damage than new Q.

Even assuming that new Q always hits an average of two targets, which it won't, new Q only does 0.675 additional base damage and .102 additional ratio damage per second. The fact that new Q does marginally more damage in a favorable situation should tell you something. If "her old q did negligible damage" then her new Q does even less, which doesn't really make it seem like new Eve is stronger than either iteration of old Eve.



Using her W to dash from the edge of her stealth area to champion is 1.5 seconds at most, and right at the range of exhaust and flash. Unless you were seen because of bad position. Is it worse than total stealth? Yes, but no worse than non-stealth gankers. Her old slow was lack luster, you want to apply slow after enemy runs, not when they are dumbfounded by ambush. Which old eve ambsh means E then R then Q spam and hope for a kill. (Viable as AP but totally useless as AD) and if you don't get a kill or assist means you are out of luck until maybe your ult comes back off CD.
A 1.5 second gapcloser isn't a gapcloser. It's running at someone. Do you know what other champion ganks by running at people with a speedboost and zero CC? Shyvana. Are Shyvana's ganks considered to be good?

Re: "Unless you were seen because of bad position," I think that it's also worth pointing out that you can only come in behind a champion while stealthed if you approach from a single easily-pink-warded location. Because they increased tower sight ranged, you can only gank from one side of the tower in mid lane and you can't gank through either tri-brush without revealing yourself. Lots of mid laners keep two sides of their lane warded nearly at all times; two wards cost 150 gold. Because of tower sight range, a mid laner can now keep a pink ward on one side of the lane and save 25g per ward cycle without losing any vision on Eve.

Her old slow was a slow. Don't trivialize that. Slows are powerful. It was a 30% 3 second slow at rank 1, and a 35% 3 second slow at the abilities most common rank (2). For comparison, exhaust is a 40% 2.5 second slow. If your enemy is dumbfounded for 3 seconds and doesn't try to run... ugh. Why are we even discussing that? Why assume that your enemy has never played before and has no idea as to what they're doing?

New Eve has nothing in its place. Nothing is pretty bad, just saying.


It also use to be that Eve have to go all damage items or she can't out put enough to secure a kill, which makes her ultra squishy. But it isn't the case now, she actually has some room to build defensive items and still be able to out put damage.
Old AD Eve... pretty much only needed Triforce for damage, and could build bruiser-y past that and still be strong. Plus she got a huge amount of health after every kill/assist. I don't know where you're even coming from with that "all damage items" comment, since AP Eve (glass-cannon eve, rather), iirc, had been falling out of favor even before she lost her stun and it was hardly played at all afterwards.

Okay, I'll ask you a question and we'll see where this goes.

What does Eve bring to a team? How does she contribute?


Well, it's a troll build, but it actually does feel fairly viable.

It reminds me a lot of Sion, actually, in so far as the "outfarm and outpush many champions while being hard to force from lane, then go brutally gank" play style goes, only with less reliable CC but greater AoE damage and he actually has an ultimate.

I was so excited to try AP Rengar, I've been meaning to give it a chance. How do you itemize? DFG, Lichbane? Abyssal and Hourglass?

[PersonMan]

I went ahead and played AD Carry again.

Double kill at 5 minutes.

Enemy turret gone at 8 minutes.

Cross-map (I was bot, the Irelia I killed was mid) kill at 12ish minutes.

End 6/1/10 (because my teammates ruthlessly KSed me after the 8-minute laning phase T.T).

Heimerdinger is now my one true AD Carry.

[Mattarias, King.]

So... I just went jungle karma, since I have been playing her and she's fun.

Why did that work :smallconfused::smalleek:

Regrowth + potion start, into Philostone->boots->HoG->treads->warmogs->force of nature

I ended up 4/3/14 I think, because they just couldn't kill me, and shieldbombs are stupid powerful even without building AP.

I think the highlight of my game was when I was running through the jungle at about 1/3 health after I got my force of nature. Their rengar jumps me and I shield, but his total damage was about zero. Then he ran since he knew I could kill him before he could get me.

Baahaahaha! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: I Told you! How many angry comments did you get in all chat? :smalltongue:

Heheheh.. Still. That's awesome. Never thought about FoN on her, actually... :smallamused: Time to go make some enemies mad, and some teammates very confused.

..Oh! As a sidenote, who's up for a challenge? LoLking has a contest (http://www.lolking.net/contests/stayin-alive-aug23) where you have to win a game without any deaths. I know that's gonna be a pain for me. I play FAR too aggressively.

...Especially with Karma. :smallamused: Get the enemy to fear you early on, nuke the heck out of them in teamfights, get focused, die, and earn your team an ace. Worth it.

Especially if you say so in chat.

...On that note, GA is HILARIOUS. :smallbiggrin:

[PersonMan]

Don't you love those games when your AP mid and ADC combine for a 14/1/20? Just got out of a game where the enemy team goes 'oh look, their AP is stunning us and we are saaaaaaad, let's go dive Anivia and ignore their squishy squishy Vayne. It's not like the bird has a built-in GA or something'.

A couple games ago I went Tanky AP Jungle'Zhao. Teamfight erupts. I walk into enemy team, almost dead. Ult to obliterate their formation. Autoattack, get healed for 300 by my W, somehow live...die at the end. 1-for-5.

[Saph]

Regarding the Blitzcrank discussion of last page, I have seen Blitz banned in 8 of my 9 ranked games. He was picked in the last one.

Yep, the more I play him, the more I can see why. Just had a game where my Blitz was laning with Tristana against an enemy Teemo and Volibear. Tristana ended the game 18/1/17. The poor guys just kept dying, coming back to lane, dying again, coming back to lane again, over and over.

The nice thing I've found about Blitz is that aiming his grab is very similar to aiming Ahri's charm, and since I've played 75+ games with Ahri it's been really easy for me to pick up.

[NineThePuma]

I want to pick up Karma. For lols.

[Mattarias, King.]

I want to pick up Karma. For lols.

:smallbiggrin: Jooiiiin uuussss~!

[TechnOkami]

I want to pick up Karma. For lols.

I do too. @_@

[NineThePuma]

Only have 1350 IP right now though. Must grind more.

Which is hard, with all the D&D I do.

[Kairaven]

~snip

where are you pulling that base and ratio number from?

old q was 30/50/70/90/110 + 0.28AP @ 0.8 cd (50% damage on second spike)
new q is 40/60/80/100/120 +0.45AP +0.4AD @ 1.5 cd

on a damage per second basis old Q wins on single target damage, at the cost of more total mana spent. And the major problem is that it never prioritize champions, it goes after the closest target, and that means if any minion is closer it hit them instead. Also the new Q has better range, which was another problem, because if your target manage to get even just a little bit away, spike won't hit them. (350 range vs 500) Plus the reduced damage on second spike on old q means that if you hit more than one target, new q wins out.

and new ravage deals more damage also and has a better attack speed boost than her old ult.

And if we are going to count ult, then her new ult does AOE percentage max health damage. Much better than what she could do within the 10 seconds of AttSpd and MvSpd the old ult provided.

Also to fully prioritize on the old w slow, you dump ranks in the stealth, which robs you of ranks in damage abilities.

and building triforce for damage? good luck getting there with old eve without massive assists from your team, cause it won't happen. old eve couldn't jungle (or farm) as well as new eve and can only kill and gank champions at below 50% health (if not lower) there's a reason why people called her a moving ward. (the point here is that eve can build defense even earlier then she use to.)

As for team contribution, new and old eve served the same supposed purpose, to assassinate/drive off carries. and I can tell you new eve does it a whole lot better. (could need more improvement, but definitely a whole lot better)

[Eldariel]

CLG.EU vs. Najin Sword at OGN LoL (http://www.ognlol.com/) semifinals today at 11:30 GMT (winner goes on to face Azubu Frost in the finals; loser faces Azubu Blaze in the 3rd place match)! Stream without login requirement here (http://www.twitch.tv/azubulive/popout) if somebody wants it.

[Neoseanster]

I was so excited to try AP Rengar, I've been meaning to give it a chance. How do you itemize? DFG, Lichbane? Abyssal and Hourglass?

I've still been experimenting with this, actually, I'm not settled on one build yet. I think it's situational for the game, and not really all that different from other APs, besides that you probably don't want to consider Doran's Rings or RoA, since he's manaless and all. I've been starting Kage's, but varying it up each time other than that. I tried Haunting Guise once or twice and it worked.

DFG is really nice, no doubt, it lets you actually burst someone from full once you've got a bit of AP instead of just massively chunking them. Lichbane adds a load of sustained damage by actually making Q and E significant damage threats instead of just "those skills you use to get ferocity back." Abyssal's really good because it's Abyssal, and Hourglass is really good because it's hourglass.

I'm tempted to try Rylai's sometime, to see how well the bonus HP augments his % heal, but he doesn't really have a good way to apply its slow.

On a tangential note, you can solo Baron with Deathcap/Hourglass/Abyssal/Sorc's/Gunblade/Lichbane, blue buff, elixirs, and level 18. It's so incredibly expensive that it doesn't really matter 95% of the time, since most games'll be well decided by the time you get to that point or it'll be too late to safely Baron solo anyway, but it works!

[Forrestfire]

Baahaahaha! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: I Told you! How many angry comments did you get in all chat? :smalltongue:

Heheheh.. Still. That's awesome. Never thought about FoN on her, actually... :smallamused: Time to go make some enemies mad, and some teammates very confused.

..Oh! As a sidenote, who's up for a challenge? LoLking has a contest (http://www.lolking.net/contests/stayin-alive-aug23) where you have to win a game without any deaths. I know that's gonna be a pain for me. I play FAR too aggressively.

...Especially with Karma. :smallamused: Get the enemy to fear you early on, nuke the heck out of them in teamfights, get focused, die, and earn your team an ace. Worth it.

Especially if you say so in chat.

...On that note, GA is HILARIOUS. :smallbiggrin:


I got no angry comments. There was only one pug in the game, (katarina mid), who didn't even respond when I locked karma with smite. No one on the enemy team seemed to know who she was, so there was no real comments on it other than "****ING SHIELD WHY DON'T YOU DIE" or variants. That specific quote was their kat after she death lotus'd me... right after I built force of nature.


Also, I wish that that contest had been last week. :smallfrown: It was a really good week for me and, well, see for yourself:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee26/ustaaz/MatchHistory.png

[TheShrike]

If it was last week I'd be able to show one of my ranked Galio games. Still haven't died as that guy.

[ChaosOS]

Is it worth it to get his snowball item as AP rengar? The armor pen and AD aren't terribly useful, but I think the MS, the CDR, and if you can get it the leap range are all very strong.

Conventionally though, how are people building him? I'm thinking AD heavy works best to keep up the 100-0 burst on carries with Stealth-leap-Emp Q-Q-W-E (Plus about 2 AA's from the massive amount of AS you have for a bit), and then relying on some lifesteal and the resists from your W to keep you alive for the rest of the fight.

[ex cathedra]

where are you pulling that base and ratio number from?
An old lolwiki revision from pre-nerf. Looks like the ratio was a bit off. LolWiki used to be way less reliable, my bad. :smallredface:

and new ravage deals more damage also and has a better attack speed boost than her old ult.
It actually does less damage until you get 62.5 bonus AD and while the attack speed was improved, it was still a part of her kit in the first place. So was old Ravage's armor/mr shred, and that's nowhere to be found. 26 armor/mr reduction is pretty massive.

And if we are going to count ult, then her new ult does AOE percentage max health damage. Much better than what she could do within the 10 seconds of AttSpd and MvSpd the old ult provided.
Her new ult also doesn't refresh on kills/assists, has a huge cooldown, and robs her of all of her pre-6 CC, which is again a huge deal.

Also to fully prioritize on the old w slow, you dump ranks in the stealth, which robs you of ranks in damage abilities.
You take it to rank 2 (for double duration stealth) at level 5 or 8 and you just leave it there. You didn't prioritize the slow, that was my point. The rank 1/2 slow was comparable to exhaust, and new Eve doesn't really compensate for that loss.

and building triforce for damage? good luck getting there with old eve without massive assists from your team, cause it won't happen. old eve couldn't jungle as well as new eve and can only kill and gank champions at below 50% health (if not lower) there's a reason why people called her a moving ward. (the point here is that eve can build defense even earlier then she use to.)
Phage is easy to buy, Zeal is easy to buy, and Sheen is easy to buy. Old Eve could get assists because she could gank well. New Eve? Not so much. Old Eve still had players who demonstrated that she was still situationally viable within a wide Elo range, so if you're really just trying to say that new Eve is better than "a moving ward" then this is a waste of everyone's time because, amusingly, you've let your old bias convince you (like much of the playerbase) that old Eve was absolutely worthless. I don't know what you're trying to get at in regards to purchasing defense. Neither old Eve nor new Eve needed early defenses. Wriggle's, Phage, Wit's End, Hexdrinker, etc. She doesn't really need defensive items until well into the midgame, where she can and could just pick up GA. Her old heal was really strong in earlygame skirmishes and could easily snowball fights.

As for team contribution, new and old eve served the same supposed purpose, to assassinate/drive off carries. and I can tell you new eve does it a whole lot better. (could need more improvement, but definitely a whole lot better)
She can't really assassinate anyone unless built AP, and since her E has 185 range... well, the lack of melee range stealth makes that very unattractive for a squishy AP champion, yeah? If built as an AD bruiser jungler, as most people have since her remake... well, what does she do compared to other bruisers? How is she better than Shyvana or Nocturne in any way that is meaningful enough to warrant picking her?

[Neftren]

..Oh! As a sidenote, who's up for a challenge? LoLking has a contest (http://www.lolking.net/contests/stayin-alive-aug23) where you have to win a game without any deaths. I know that's gonna be a pain for me. I play FAR too aggressively.

I just went 0/0/3 in a game as Jungle Lee Sin. First game I've played since I saw your post too! So... I'm entered into this contest I suppose. Let me know if you want some help getting your flawless victory.

[NineThePuma]

As someone who played Eve for a brief (roughly ~20 games) period before she got reworked, stealth was never a priority. I took it at 1, and again at 4, but that was it. Most people would whine about how unviable or useless she was in solo queue, but when playing with friends I managed to prove pretty solid as a ganker. Enemies had no idea how to play against me, because Evelynn wasn't even on the radar.

Post rework eve got a lot of play in pubs, and her weaknesses shine out MASSIVELY. She's countered with hard CC, Oracles is actually useless against her, and pulling off a gank as New Eve is heavily reliant on the lane having hard CC in place to initiate.

Does New Eve have more team fight viability with her ult? Yes.

Does that make up for New Eve failing hard at her role as an assassin? In my opinion, no.

That's why the changes I suggest are generally small simple things that would increase her viability without turning her into a problem.

Q: Return her old Q; while it isn't perfect, with the "lot of work" that Riot put into making sure it was an intelligent projectile the old version would be much more useful. As the new target finding is "Target of your autoattack > Champion > Minions" (with a prejudice toward targeting low health) that would make the Old Q's method more reliable and more useful, giving her better team fight presence (as the moment the enemy realizes that yes, the Evelynn player is seriously playing evelynn, they stop bunching up any time that Evelynn is unaccounted for.)

W: Make her W active not break stealth. It makes it a more reliable escape mechanism (get some distance with W, fade into stealth) and ganking tool (close distance that much more rapidly). In addition, have her attacks apply a heavy slow while it's active. This gives her more low level ganking power and makes her ganks not Ult dependent.

E: Give her Armor/MR shred on her E. This, flat out, will improve her damage output significantly. This is practically the only change to her E needed.

R: Remove the slow, give her the passive healing on kills back. This changes it from a "must use" ganking tool into something that's largely used for sustain or as a finishing blow.

[Neoseanster]

New Eve's Q is way nicer for last hitting and poking if you play her as a laner rather than jungler, gotta give it that much at least. It makes her reasonably viable as a solo vs some match ups, both mid lane and top, when before she really just wasn't.

The range and that the damage per cast is now so much higher makes a big, likely understated difference.

And her new ultimate's shield is amusingly ridiculous if you catch multiple people in it, a 1500 shield if you manage to hit five post level 16 is just silly. Not necessarily useful in a big team fight, but silly. I haven't played enough of her to actually comment other than that, though. :P

[Nadevoc]

..Oh! As a sidenote, who's up for a challenge? LoLking has a contest (http://www.lolking.net/contests/stayin-alive-aug23) where you have to win a game without any deaths. I know that's gonna be a pain for me. I play FAR too aggressively.

I was thinking I'd never manage it because I tend to play really aggressively... then I checked my match history and saw that one of the two matches I did as Nunu top was 5/0/5.

On a related note, Nunu top is seeming really fun. Throw all the snowballs. Ignore their counterharass by nomming their minions. Keep throwing snowballs. If they all in, snowball them and wait for their CC, then ult.

[ex cathedra]

New Eve's Q is way nicer for last hitting and poking if you play her as a laner rather than jungler, gotta give it that much at least. It makes her reasonably viable as a solo vs some match ups, both mid lane and top, when before she really just wasn't.

The range and that the damage per cast is now so much higher makes a big, likely understated difference.

And her new ultimate's shield is amusingly ridiculous if you catch multiple people in it, a 1500 shield if you manage to hit five post level 16 is just silly. Not necessarily useful in a big team fight, but silly. I haven't played enough of her to actually comment other than that, though. :P

I actually prefer hew new Q because of the way it feels, but I was disappointed by the rework as a whole. The massive stealth vision range in conjunction with zero pre-6 CC and no hard gapclosers makes her feel wrong. I don't know how to better express myself. New Eve doesn't play like Evelynn, as I've expressed before. Old Eve would appear within melee range and immediately apply pressure via decent CC (stun was outrageous, 3 second slow would have been really good if all of Eve's numbers weren't gutted) and damage.

[lord_khaine]

CLG.EU vs. Najin Sword at OGN LoL semifinals today at 11:30 GMT (winner goes on to face Azubu Frost in the finals; loser faces Azubu Blaze in the 3rd place match)! Stream without login requirement here if somebody wants it.

Thanks for the link, must say it has been a disapointing display from CLG so far however.

[LordShotGun]

Thanks for the link, must say it has been a disapointing display from CLG so far however.

But then they come back for a 3-1 win.

[Eldariel]

Great series to be honest. And now we get CLG.EU vs. Azubu Frost finals and it'll be glorious.

[9mm]

Great series to be honest. And now we get CLG.EU vs. Azubu Frost finals and it'll be glorious.

Hotshot's reaction to hearing .EU just decided they'd cede the early game was hillarious.

[Eldariel]

Hotshot's reaction to hearing .EU just decided they'd cede the early game was hillarious.

Ayyup. Especially the imitation :smallbiggrin:

[lord_khaine]

But then they come back for a 3-1 win.

No, i was thinking about that other match where they got crushed.

But then again, they didnt have Froggen on that team, so it was quite confusing, are there 2 teams called CLG playing?

[Mephit]

You're confusing CLG.NA and CLG.EU.

CLG.NA is the team lead by HotshotGG. They only lost to CLG.EU in their pool and lost their quarterfinal.
CLG.EU is the team with Froggen. They didn't drop a game up until this match.

Edit: I was considering mentioning CLG.Black like Eldariel, but they haven't really accomplished much of anything lately, and I didn't want to add to the confusion. :smallwink:

[Eldariel]

No, i was thinking about that other match where they got crushed.

But then again, they didnt have Froggen on that team, so it was quite confusing, are there 2 teams called CLG playing?

There are three teams under the CLG name (CLG is an E-Sports organization):

CLG.Prime: North American "original" CLG that has been playing under the name since 2010 and has the founder of the organization (HotshotGG) in their ranks.

Currently roster: HotshotGG (jungle), Chauster (support), Bigfatjiji (mid), Voyboy (sololane) & Doublelift (AD). Though they do occasional role switches (everybody has played another role before except for Voyboy)

CLG.Black: A recent, second North American team for CLG that hasn't hit most of the high profile tournaments yet but does pretty well for themselves right under the radar. Team BLACK is a separate, Europe-based team, btw (that probably disbands soon anyways since Svenskeren is in it and he never lasts more than 2 weeks in a team).

Current roster: Sycho Sid (sololane), Link (mid), Zuna (jungle), Hoodstomp (AD), Bloodwater (support)

CLG.EU: An European team under CLG flag formed by Wickd after he left SK together with Froggen last spring. They're arguably the strongest team in the world right now and the only team to consistently beat Moscow 5 (M5 has beaten them on the big stage once now though so they're not infallible). Known for their extreme lategame prowess and great defensive and turtling play.

Current roster: Froggen (mid), Wickd (sololane), Snoopeh (jungle), Yellowpete (AD), Krepo (support)

[Mephit]

I'm rooting for CLG.EU, but I'm expecting Frost to win the finals. I think they might be the best team in the world right now. They also have the home advantage and Blaze to scrim with, while I'm not sure if CLG.NA will return to Korea after the NA regionals.

[Eldariel]

I'm rooting for CLG.EU, but I'm expecting Frost to win the finals. I think they might be the best team in the world right now. They also have the home advantage and Blaze to scrim with, while I'm not sure if CLG.NA will return to Korea after the NA regionals.

I'm fairly confident CLG.EU will at least give them a close match. Given how they've stomped all Korea thus far Frost will have to be on a whole different level to actually take it home. Besides, neither Moscow 5 nor CLG.EU has ever lost a match to a Korean team yet so it's kinda premature to say they're the best in the world right now.

[Forrestfire]

So... I just got out of a game with the most aggravating jungler ever. He was fairly average in jungling skill, but ended the game 18/5/5, mostly because I fed him a ton of kills in the midgame.

I was Karma mid vs Diana, which is a fairly bad matchup in my experience. He ganked once early on and got a kill, but didn't gank any other times except when neither of us were in lane. And then he killed all their minions and pushed the lane, but didn't fight the tower. :smallannoyed:

During the late-game, he complained incessantly that I was useless and raged at me for taking blue a few times, when he was dead or on the other side of the map... And he didn't care that I had fed a ton of kills to other people, intentionally holding back the final strike so our Diana or the Warwick could take it.

And then he raged in postgame chat :smallannoyed:

Why do people like this exist? :smallfrown:

[Mephit]

I'm fairly confident CLG.EU will at least give them a close match. Given how they've stomped all Korea thus far Frost will have to be on a whole different level to actually take it home. Besides, neither Moscow 5 nor CLG.EU has ever lost a match to a Korean team yet so it's kinda premature to say they're the best in the world right now.

Yeah, maybe it's not fair to make assumptions like that without having seen how they match-up. I'm just comparing what I've seen from both teams, and the Azubu teams are really a notch above the rest of the Koreans, and just complete monsters in general in my eyes after watching Blaze stomp what was basically the entire NA scene.

On the other hand, I'm not 100% convinced of CLG's dominance anymore after their performance at the EU regionals, and they made some missteps today, too. I also think conceding the early game and hoping to outscale late is a strategy that can be exploited by Frost.

Who knows, though. You can never really be sure of the outcome of a match, especially if both teams have 2 weeks to prepare, but if I had to put my money on someone, it'd definitely be Frost.

[Qwertystop]

All of you playing Karma seem to be much more durable than I have been. What builds do you use?

[PersonMan]

I just had a weird game. One of our people wants jungle, someone else grabs jungle Udyr and locks in.

After a few moments, it's clear that nobody is willing to compromise ('Udyr you can top, I can do support or something, let Vlad switch to a jungler like he wanted' 'i cant top'). Jax/Ali are the final picks, both seem intent on trolling.

I go top as Nasus, vs Rengar. Pretty early on we just start ignoring each other and farming to the max (although he was pushing a bunch and getting outfarmed by me pretty hard). Every now and then our Ali/Udyr double jungle would gank.

2/0, in total, in our favor. Cool. Graves is alone bot lane, but he's pushing so he won't be able to free farm too much.

Over the next few minutes it somehow becomes 5/17 or so. I'm still happily farming away, deciding to try out an AP Nasus build because why not.

A few turrets later, our 1/6 Jax seems confused - I've been talking to the enemy Rengar about fun and our scores (after I died due to a weird line of sight mishap I said 'lol LoS fail' and he told me my entire game was bad; this was despite me being 2/4/2 while he was 2/4/1 and having 40 more farm than him). "Why funny to lose troll game?" he asks me. I say that laning was really fun. I mention that full AP Jax could actually be a viable build; his reply is that 'im not plat ;p' and 'i troll like u'. "Why do you think I'm trolling?" I ask, farming next to my inner turret some more.

'oh you just noob' is his reply. Que me one-shotting the enemy killing spree Trundle from 1/4 HP with a single Q. "sorry, can't hear you over the sound of me getting kills" I reply.

I vote 'no' a few times to surrenders but eventually my fellow no-voter turned to yes and we lost. It was a pretty fun game, all in all. I just with that the enemy Graves hadn't gotten really fed so I could experience a real teamfight with my build.

Still, I'm happy with my performance - 4/4/2 with 186 farm in 27 minutes, when the enemy has nearly four times as many kills as your team.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, maybe it's not fair to make assumptions like that without having seen how they match-up. I'm just comparing what I've seen from both teams, and the Azubu teams are really a notch above the rest of the Koreans, and just complete monsters in general in my eyes after watching Blaze stomp what was basically the entire NA scene.

On the other hand, I'm not 100% convinced of CLG's dominance anymore after their performance at the EU regionals, and they made some missteps today, too. I also think conceding the early game and hoping to outscale late is a strategy that can be exploited by Frost.

Who knows, though. You can never really be sure of the outcome of a match, especially if both teams have 2 weeks to prepare, but if I had to put my money on someone, it'd definitely be Frost.

Well. M5 has tried to exploit that all their career; see how that's worked out for them :smalltongue: Seriously, if there's one strategy CLG.EU is strong against it's heavy early aggression. They're the best team in the world at countering that and forcing the long game. That's why they're where they are right now. So unless Frost brings something different to the table, I don't see it ending well for them.

[Forrestfire]

All of you playing Karma seem to be much more durable than I have been. What builds do you use?

Actually, I've just been following a guide I found on Solomid.

Boots/3 -> Philosopher's Stone -> Heart of Gold -> Kage's Lucky Pick -> Sorcerer's Shoes -> Deathcap -> Deathfire -> Situational

Heart of Gold is built first if against someone with ridiculous damage output (diana, riven, etc), and other boots can be built if need be.

Most of the situational items I've built were Void Staff against heavy MR, WotA as a general item, or Houglass if I need it.

The goal of this build is to just get the the lategame faster than enemies. Triple GP10 and farming generally gets me to deathcap and deathfire before they can build their second item, unless I got outplayed or denied hard.

[Qwertystop]

Actually, I've just been following a guide I found on Solomid.

Boots/3 -> Philosopher's Stone -> Heart of Gold -> Kage's Lucky Pick -> Sorcerer's Shoes -> Deathcap -> Deathfire -> Situational

Heart of Gold is built first if against someone with ridiculous damage output (diana, riven, etc), and other boots can be built if need be.

Most of the situational items I've built were Void Staff against heavy MR, WotA as a general item, or Houglass if I need it.

The goal of this build is to just get the the lategame faster than enemies. Triple GP10 and farming generally gets me to deathcap and deathfire before they can build their second item, unless I got outplayed or denied hard.

So how does that complete lack of defenses wind up with you being so durable? I basically have that build.

[Forrestfire]

So how does that complete lack of defenses wind up with you being so durable? I basically have that build.

I have no idea. For me, it's mostly practice with positioning. My main AP mid is Lux, who plays a lot like karma when it comes to teamfights. Also, I'm really not afraid to shield myself, since I can generally trust my teammates to not do something stupid to get themselves killed.

The beam is really useful for positioning, too. I try to always have it up when I can, since the damage on it is pretty strong, too.

[PersonMan]

So how does that complete lack of defenses wind up with you being so durable? I basically have that build.

Karma's durability comes from waiting until you have absurdly low HP, then dropping a trolltastic shield on yourself.

This requires:

-A good amount of AP
-The proper positioning, so you don't just die anyways without accomplishing anything
-the knowledge that, screw the enemy team, you are Karma and you will AoE them

[Math_Mage]

So how does that complete lack of defenses wind up with you being so durable? I basically have that build.

Shields don't make you durable.

Shields that absorb damage make you durable.

As with Janna, it's all about timing.

[9mm]

There are three teams under the CLG name (CLG is an E-Sports organization):

CLG.Prime: North American "original" CLG that has been playing under the name since 2010 and has the founder of the organization (HotshotGG) in their ranks.

Currently roster: HotshotGG (jungle), Chauster (support), Bigfatjiji (mid), Voyboy (sololane) & Doublelift (AD). Though they do occasional role switches (everybody has played another role before except for Voyboy)

CLG.Black: A recent, second North American team for CLG that hasn't hit most of the high profile tournaments yet but does pretty well for themselves right under the radar. Team BLACK is a separate, Europe-based team, btw (that probably disbands soon anyways since Svenskeren is in it and he never lasts more than 2 weeks in a team).

Current roster: Sycho Sid (sololane), Link (mid), Zuna (jungle), Hoodstomp (AD), Bloodwater (support)

CLG.EU: An European team under CLG flag formed by Wickd after he left SK together with Froggen last spring. They're arguably the strongest team in the world right now and the only team to consistently beat Moscow 5 (M5 has beaten them on the big stage once now though so they're not infallible). Known for their extreme lategame prowess and great defensive and turtling play.

Current roster: Froggen (mid), Wickd (sololane), Snoopeh (jungle), Yellowpete (AD), Krepo (support)
CLG has a fourth team that plays Dota 2.

[Eldariel]

..Oh! As a sidenote, who's up for a challenge? LoLking has a contest (http://www.lolking.net/contests/stayin-alive-aug23) where you have to win a game without any deaths. I know that's gonna be a pain for me. I play FAR too aggressively.

Huh. I rarely take note of these but this hit the eye. Got me to make an account in LoLKing and all. A contest of "Play a game with Anivia" is right down my alley :smallcool:

[Leona]

Leona is pretty tanky, so I might try this :D

[Silverraptor]

Guys, so it continues.:smallbiggrin:
http://www.massivepwnage.com/comics/2012-08-24.jpg

[Mtg_player_zach]

My ranked team is looking to scrim other teams anyone interested pm me or toastymow.