Regaining PrC Prerequisites (and the Implications Thereof)

[Lonely Tylenol]

I had asked this in the Simple RAW Q&A, but it became abundantly clear (before and especially after being pointed out to me) that this is neither simple nor RAW, but what happens if you gain (through a temporary means) the prerequisites necessary to enter into a prestige class, then lose them, and then regain them?

Allow me to give three examples. The first two should be easy enough (I hope), but the third muddles things a bit further.

1) The War Hulk - This is inspired by a popular Hulk build. You are a Human with at least three levels of Stoneblessed and at least one level of Barbarian, with the Mountain Rage variant. You don a Ring of Enlarge Person, thus fulfilling the "Size: Large or larger" requirement of the class, and then you take as many levels of the War Hulk class as you want... And then take the ring off. Do you lose the features of the class, since you no longer qualify for them? If you do, and you go into rage (and become Large, as per the Mountain Rage variant), do you regain your class features?

2) The Duelist - You are a Fighter. You want to be a Duelist, but your DEX is unremarkable. As a result, you pick up a pair of Gloves of Dexterity +2, which allows you to qualify for the feats Dodge and Mobility, and finally, you become a Duelist. Things are going great for you, until a targeted Dispel Magic successfully dispels your gloves, dropping your DEX below 13. You can now no longer use Dodge or Mobility, but have still technically taken them (right?); do you lose your class features from Duelist at all during the 1d4 rounds that the item is suppressed, or do you retain them as normal? If you lose them, do you regain them 1d4 rounds later when the gloves come back online?

3) The Hellfire Warlock - This is the one that originally got me thinking about it. Say you're a Warlock 12/Chameleon 2. As your floating Chameleon 2 feat, you pick up Extra Invocation (Hellrime Blast), which allows you to qualify for Hellfire Warlock. After a few levels of Hellfire Warlock, you decide to change your floating feat to something else; now, you no longer know Hellrime Blast, and no longer fulfill the prerequisites of Hellfire Warlock. Some time later, you once again select the Extra Invocation feat with your floating Chameleon feat, and pick up Hellrime Blast. The standard questions from above are in play: do you lose your Hellfire Warlock class features, and if so, do you regain them?

However, there are other factors at play with this one: One of the Hellfire Warlock's class features, "Invoking", advances the Warlock's invocations known and their Eldritch Blast damage. However, three full caster levels are now tied to the Hellfire Warlock--and are now tied to the Hellfire Warlock. Do you lose these invocation caster levels when you lose your class features (if you lose them), going from--in the above example, plus three Hellfire Warlock levels, invoker level 15 to invoker level 12--effectively losing the known invocations and 1d6 off your Eldritch Blast? More complicated still, when you regain the class features of the Hellfire Warlock (if you regain them), do you regain the same three invoker levels as the ones you lost (regaining the same two invocations that you had taken the first time), or do gain three new invoker levels, replacing the old as if they had never existed, and gaining two new invocations which replace the last two you had taken?

[sonofzeal]

For #2, "A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite"... but you still technically have it, it's just nonfunctional. Thus you still unambiguously qualify for the PrC.



In general... the loss of PrCs is a topic of much contention. The debate rests around whether you consider the DMG the "primary source" for everything about prestige classes, or whether it's only the "primary source" for the specific rules it includes, which opens the door for CWar or CArc to be the "primary source" for the specific rule of what happens when you lose prereqs for a PrC.

Curmudgeon goes with the former. I go with the latter, since CArc and CWar PrCs are some of the least likely to be lost - unlike, for example, Radiant Servant of Pelor which does rather seem contingent on maintaining good relationships with Pelor. If you can lose access to OotBI by being a Warblade and retraining your feats to Crossbow, then I think it makes sense to apply the rule more broadly. And if we go with Curmudgeon's interpretation, then absolutely nothing described in Core can ever be adjusted or expanded in later books, rendering a heck of a lot of text worthless since later books are rather fond of doing precisely that.

Also noteworthy is the debate on whether magic items can be used to qualify in the first place. I'm not going to enter into that one though, I'll just tell you that opinions differ and leave it at that.

Hellfire Warlock definitelly seems to work that way though.

[hoverfrog]

I think it's fair to say that dropping ability scores so that you no longer qualify for a feat or PrC does NOT cause you to lose access to PrC abilities. Otherwise any number of spells or attacks that reduce ability scores would be significantly more powerful. Take a wizard who has his Intelligence reduced to 5 by a series of spell attacks against him. He's still a wizard, it's just that he's now too dumb to cast his spells. He could still use a wand or read from a scroll.

[Lonely Tylenol]

For #2, "A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite"... but you still technically have it, it's just nonfunctional. Thus you still unambiguously qualify for the PrC.

Perhaps the Mobility enchantment would have been a smarter pick for this example, but this does serve to create a distinction. :smallredface:


In general... the loss of PrCs is a topic of much contention. The debate rests around whether you consider the DMG the "primary source" for everything about prestige classes, or whether it's only the "primary source" for the specific rules it includes, which opens the door for CWar or CArc to be the "primary source" for the specific rule of what happens when you lose prereqs for a PrC.

Curmudgeon goes with the former. I go with the latter, since CArc and CWar PrCs are some of the least likely to be lost - unlike, for example, Radiant Servant of Pelor which does rather seem contingent on maintaining good relationships with Pelor. If you can lose access to OotBI by being a Warblade and retraining your feats to Crossbow, then I think it makes sense to apply the rule more broadly. And if we go with Curmudgeon's interpretation, then absolutely nothing described in Core can ever be adjusted or expanded in later books, rendering a heck of a lot of text worthless since later books are rather fond of doing precisely that.

I am, unfortunately, not keen enough to understand the "primary source" rules or their direct implications on this, but I will say that I only found (with assistance) "lost prerequisite" rules in Complete Warrior (p. 16) and Complete Arcane (p. 17), and nothing in core. As far as I can tell, there are no rules that govern what happens when prerequisites are regained, however (which is the big question for me).


Also noteworthy is the debate on whether magic items can be used to qualify in the first place. I'm not going to enter into that one though, I'll just tell you that opinions differ and leave it at that.

I've teetered on this one myself, and have often erred on the side of safety (choosing two levels of Rogue for Fochlucan Lyrist builds when a Ring of Evasion will supposedly do), but figured I would go with the magic item interpretation for simplicity's sake; the first conundrum could just as easily be posed with a Permanencied Enlarge Person that later gets dispelled, and the second... Well, the second was already bad for demonstrating this exact problem.


I think it's fair to say that dropping ability scores so that you no longer qualify for a feat or PrC does NOT cause you to lose access to PrC abilities. Otherwise any number of spells or attacks that reduce ability scores would be significantly more powerful. Take a wizard who has his Intelligence reduced to 5 by a series of spell attacks against him. He's still a wizard, it's just that he's now too dumb to cast his spells. He could still use a wand or read from a scroll.

Problematically, a Wizard doesn't actually need a positive INT modifier to take levels in Wizard. Presumably, Thog Orcington, the Orc village idiot with 6 INT (8 - 2 racial) could take levels in Wizard--he just couldn't cast spells. As such, he could qualify out-of-the-box for PrCs requiring one has an arcane caster level, but not PrCs that require "ability to cast X spell", or "ability to cast spells of Y level". Which seems odd.

That would be another good example, though: say you are a spellcaster who has had your INT, WIS, or CHA (based on what dictates what spells you can know and cast) into the negatives. Do you lose all prestige class features as a consequence of losing the ability to cast the spells that let you qualify for them, or do you retain the class features (never lose them)? If you heal the ability damage (either over time or with a Restoration spell), do you regain your PrC features, if you ever lost them?

[sonofzeal]

Perhaps the Mobility enchantment would have been a smarter pick for this example, but this does serve to create a distinction. :smallredface:
I think the Mobility enchantment "grants you the benefit of" the feat, whereas the requirement means you must have the feat itself (even if you're not benefiting from it because your Dex is too low)




I am, unfortunately, not keen enough to understand the "primary source" rules or their direct implications on this, but I will say that I only found (with assistance) "lost prerequisite" rules in Complete Warrior (p. 16) and Complete Arcane (p. 17), and nothing in core. As far as I can tell, there are no rules that govern what happens when prerequisites are regained, however (which is the big question for me).
Honestly, I think the "primary source" rules are a little ambiguous here, I just think accepting the rule the way it was written is the only consistent way to go about things, given that we accept all sorts of other rules that got modified or expanded in later books, like the whole Weapon-Like Spell thing when the issues of spells critting is unspecified in core. The text on Weapon-Like Spells in CArc simply talks about spells in general, and the text on losing PrCs in the same book simply talks about PrCs in general, without any caveats about "the PrCs presented here" or "the PrCs in this book".

But you're right, there's nothing about regaining them. It could be that they stay lost forever, but I don't think anyone's going to argue for that in actual game. While you don't qualify, you don't gain the advantages - that much seems clear. Presumably, when you do qualify, you do gain the advantages. Yes, that leads to Shrodinger's Dragon Disciple, but such cases are exceedingly rare and can usually be dealt with easily. Yes, that's edging on Oberoni territory, but the fix is so blindingly straightforward (and the alternative so blatantly unplayabe) that I'm not going to lose any sleep there.

And personally, I kind of like the idea of a Mountain Raging Goliath with levels in Warhulk that effectively go away when not in rage. Just give 'im the initials "B.B." and you're off to the races.


I've teetered on this one myself, and have often erred on the side of safety (choosing two levels of Rogue for Fochlucan Lyrist builds when a Ring of Evasion will supposedly do), but figured I would go with the magic item interpretation for simplicity's sake; the first conundrum could just as easily be posed with a Permanencied Enlarge Person that later gets dispelled, and the second... Well, the second was already bad for demonstrating this exact problem.
Well, upon review, CWar explicitly allows for the use of "a magic item granting an important ability". Just watch out for the difference between "gains" and "gains the effect of", as mentioned above.

[SanguisAevum]

Not really sure where he problem is...

Feats...


Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.


Prestige classes


Prestige classes offer a new form of multi classing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multi classing.


Both from the rules. Feats depend on there prerequisites all the time, whilst the prerequisites for prestige classes ONLY apply to taking the FIRST LEVEL of that class.

It couldn't be clearer.

[hoverfrog]

There are, I think, two ways to look at this from a logical point of view.

1) The prerequisites of the PrC are a requirement for functioning in the PrC.
2) The prerequisites of the PrC are a requirement for entry into the PrC.

With the former any loss of a feat or function that allows entry into the PrC would prevent the abilities of the PrC from working. With the latter it makes no difference.

The SRD states
Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.Which means that option 2, there are entry requirements, not active requirements, makes more sense.

An elf wizard 5\fighter 5\arcane archer 5 is killed and reincarnated as a dwarf. He retains his arcane archer levels and can continue to advance in this class because he qualified for the class when he took the first level.

This leads me to a related question. I am playing a cleric 2\wizard 1 with the Precocious Apprentice (CA 181) and Alternative Spell Source (Dragon 325) feats Do I qualify for the Mystic Theurge PrC. I have the ranks in the necessary skills but do I qualify for this:
Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.I can cast a single 2nd level spell that is either divine or arcane.

If so and I take a level of Mystic Theurge and later swap out the Alternative Spell Source feat then I would not have qualified for the PrC. If I wait to do this till I'm 15th level and have taken the extra levels of wizard and cleric does it make any difference to the build or would I be unable to swap out the feat?

[hoverfrog]

Ninja'd on the quote by SanguisAevum

[Lonely Tylenol]

SanguisAevum, hoverfrog: both of you might want to take a gander at the rules for lost prerequisites (Complete Warrior, p. 16 and Complete Arcane, p. 17), both of which state that when a prerequisite for a prestige class is lost after levels are taken, all class features are immediately lost (but the Hit Dice and saves remain).

Suddenly, it becomes less clear.

[Psyren]

Also noteworthy is the debate on whether magic items can be used to qualify in the first place. I'm not going to enter into that one though, I'll just tell you that opinions differ and leave it at that.

If you put stock in CWar's rule (and it sounds like you do) then you should also allow item-based qualification:


An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.

If losing the item caused you to no longer qualify, then logically, the item was what allowed you to qualify to begin with.

[SanguisAevum]

SanguisAevum, hoverfrog: both of you might want to take a gander at the rules for lost prerequisites (Complete Warrior, p. 16 and Complete Arcane, p. 17), both of which state that when a prerequisite for a prestige class is lost after levels are taken, all class features are immediately lost (but the Hit Dice and saves remain).

Suddenly, it becomes less clear.

Ahh, DnD and its many contradictory rules sources!

That particular wording from CA and CW wording is exactly the same as the paragraph that WAS in the 3.0 rules about PrC's and their pre-reqs.

As it is, the core 3.5 rules for PrC's have omitted that particular statement. Thus I believe it is clear that it is a throw back to 3.0 and is no longer relevant to 3.5.

as usual... your game, your rules... but ill stick to how the core rules present themselves thanks.

[ThiagoMartell]

I see no reason why we shouldn't use the CW rules, specially since so many exploits are stopped (or at least greatly inhibited) by it.

[NeedsAnswersNao]

Its bad form to retrain or otherwise manipulate your entry requirements.

However the turning on/off is still acceptable.

[Amphetryon]

I see no reason why we shouldn't use the CW rules, specially since so many exploits are stopped (or at least greatly inhibited) by it.

"I take the 10th level of Dragon Disciple. . . oops, wait. . . oh, okay, good to go. . . darn it. . . never mind, I'm okay. . . whoops, lost it. . ."

[dextercorvia]

Also, if you follow the CW rules then you lose only the benefits of the special abilities. Whereas, if you follow CA then you lose the actual abilities.

This may not seem contradictory, but only one of these reading results in the Hulk build functioning the way people want. (Hint: It isn't the one in CW.)

[Psyren]

"I take the 10th level of Dragon Disciple. . . oops, wait. . . oh, okay, good to go. . . darn it. . . never mind, I'm okay. . . whoops, lost it. . ."

"I enter Ur-Priest... crap! Oh, woohoo! Crap! Woohoo! Crap!"

Having said that, I actually agree with Thiago. Maybe add a line about how a PrC can never disqualify you from itself and you're good to go.

[sonofzeal]

I'm AFB, but Green Star Adept is, I think, another one that does odd things with this rule.

Nevertheless, I think it's definitely RAW. Interpretations which deny this would also be forced to deny all sorts of other revisions and expansions (like weapon-like spells, also introduced in CArc). And the number of "bugged" PrCs is small - AFAIK, less than 1% of all PrCs - and the "bugginess" can simply be ignored.

[dextercorvia]

But which rule do you want to follow?

[sonofzeal]

But which rule do you want to follow?
Can you set up a hypothetical in which it makes a difference?

[dextercorvia]

The War Hulk as above.

No Time To Think does not provide a benefit, so would still be in effect if you use the CW rule. If you use the CA rule, then you lose that as well.

[Psyren]

Can you set up a hypothetical in which it makes a difference?

CArc: Lose special abilities.
CWar: Lose special abilities and class features.

CWar hoses you a lot more. For instance, if you became a good-aligned Ur-Priest, CArc would only take away the stuff like the SLA-stealing and rebuke undead; CWar would take those and also your spells.

(Not that I think Ur-Priests should have an alignment requirement in any event. Imagine a setting where the evil gods won and deposed all the good ones - you would need an Ur-Priest to fight them and restore a good god to power.)

[hoverfrog]

Or the Mystic Theurge PrC. Able to cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells but having an intelligence reduced to 8 for some reason (I dunno, Mindflayer got the munchies). Would he lose all the extra cleric caster levels as a result of no longer qualifying for the PrC? That sort of interpretation seems more than a bit off.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ahh, DnD and its many contradictory rules sources!

That particular wording from CA and CW wording is exactly the same as the paragraph that WAS in the 3.0 rules about PrC's and their pre-reqs.

As it is, the core 3.5 rules for PrC's have omitted that particular statement. Thus I believe it is clear that it is a throw back to 3.0 and is no longer relevant to 3.5.

as usual... your game, your rules... but ill stick to how the core rules present themselves thanks.

Question: Do you only use core content?

If not, can I join your game and use the retraining rules (PHB II, p. 191-6) to retrain all my feats into new, elaborate feat chains so that I can dip all of the best classes at every level?

After all, no core rule supersedes it.


"I take the 10th level of Dragon Disciple. . . oops, wait. . . oh, okay, good to go. . . darn it. . . never mind, I'm okay. . . whoops, lost it. . ."

"You mean it will cost me 275gp and a few months of downtime to retrain away all these crappy feat and skill prerequisites for Dervish after I start taking levels in the class? Then I can train them all into Fist of the Forest's prerequisites... Which will only cost me 350gp to retrain in their entirety? Golly, where do I sign?"


"I enter Ur-Priest... crap! Oh, woohoo! Crap! Woohoo! Crap!"

Having said that, I actually agree with Thiago. Maybe add a line about how a PrC can never disqualify you from itself and you're good to go.

Rules as Common Sense Dictate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240218) prevails! :smallwink:


Or the Mystic Theurge PrC. Able to cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells but having an intelligence reduced to 8 for some reason (I dunno, Mindflayer got the munchies). Would he lose all the extra cleric caster levels as a result of no longer qualifying for the PrC? That sort of interpretation seems more than a bit off.

Actually, that's a very good point. You wouldn't even be able to shrug off the ability damage with Restoration, because you would have lost your ability to cast that spell. That's tragic.

I almost wanted to say that core PrCs were designed with the original rule (from the DMG) in mind, and not the revisions, but then I remembered that "able to cast spells of X level" is a common prerequisite for arcane and divine PrCs in almost every book.

I think that, were I playing a Mystic Theurge in such a way, I would fill my second-level spell slots with Lesser Restoration (or buy a wand, or keep scrolls of Restoration handy), and then be thankful that I am interpreting the intent of the authors such that, when my prerequisites are regained, I regain my class features (and hope the DM thinks the same). :smallwink:

EDIT: Actually, I think the way that this particular question is framed helps me out with the secondary problem quite a bit: If you were to lose your Wizard spellcasting as a result of temporarily losing prerequisites (say, because of INT damage), your spellbook would not lose the spells you had gained as a result of gaining levels in Wizard, nor would you get to choose two new spells per level when you gained those caster levels back. You would gain the same features that you had lost, to the letter.

Of course, this is moot if the Wizard's "Spellbook" feature is a feature of the Wizard and not of prepared spellcasting (in which case, a Wizard who PrCs out does not gain two spells per level when they PrC out), but I don't even know, nor want to know where I fall in that argument.

[sonofzeal]

Honestly, I think "able to cast" is the problem, if you take it too literally. You're silenced? Unable to cast, lose your PrC! Wander into an AMF? Unable to cast, lose your PrC! Used all your spells for the day? Unable to cast, lose your PrC!

If a character has non-zero spell slots of the appropriate level, I think that's enough. RACSD indeed.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Honestly, I think "able to cast" is the problem, if you take it too literally. You're silenced? Unable to cast, lose your PrC! Wander into an AMF? Unable to cast, lose your PrC! Used all your spells for the day? Unable to cast, lose your PrC!

If a character has non-zero spell slots of the appropriate level, I think that's enough. RACSD indeed.

I think this is where I'd go with that as well (meaning that Thog Orcington, the 6 INT Wizard, can take levels in Incantatrix if he makes it that far in his adventuring career), but it does make me wonder what the intent of the authors was when they came up with the spellcasting prerequisites: namely, if they believed that "able to cast" meant "had the requisite ability score" (and what would happen if they didn't).

[hoverfrog]

Honestly, I think "able to cast" is the problem, if you take it too literally. You're silenced? Unable to cast, lose your PrC! Wander into an AMF? Unable to cast, lose your PrC! Used all your spells for the day? Unable to cast, lose your PrC!Yet the point is moot if it is only an entry requirement for the PrC and not an ongoing requirement. Mary the Mystic Theurge gained the PrC and keeps it even if someone sucks half her brains out through her ear and she never casts an arcane spell again. She could even continue to advance as an MT.