Netherese Arcanist at level 27th?

[Lord_Goat]

Hi all!

I'm currently preparing a character for a Epic level game my roommate will DM. He has already approved the Netherese Arcanist PrC (renamed (temporarily) Primaveral Arcanist). As the starting level is 30th, I planned on my 31st level being my first in NA.

However a lot of NPCs in publications seem to qualify at level 27th. I turned that around a lot in my head and was not able to figure out how could a PC can turn NA before his 31st level. Keeping in mind that the minimum requirements are :

Feats: Improved Metamagic, Improved Spellcasting (Improved Spell Capacity)
Spells: Being able to cast a 13th-level spell.

Assuming you go pure Wizard (which a lot of these NPCs tend to be, which I will probably not do), featwise, as far as I can see:

21st - Improved Metamagic
24th - Improved Spellcasting (10th)
25th (Wizard bonus!) - Improved Spellcasting (11th)
27th - Improved Spellcasting (12th)
and
30th - Improved Spellcasting (13th)

And voilà! You can now be a Netherese Arcanist!

Unless I missed something (I've spent the past 2 years playing Pathfinder, and we didn't go Epic, and now my roommate wants to try his hands at something truly fantastic....), the only way to become a NA that I see is to be 30th level.

Keeping in mind that I don't plan on taking multiple levels in 4 different PrCs just to become a NA faster, did I miss something?

Help me GitP forums, you're my only hope!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can qualify at 22, due to the skill rank requirement.

If you get both Sanctum Spell (CA) and Earth Spell (RoS) pre-epic, you can cast an 11th level spell from a 9th level slot. A single Improved Spell Capacity feat gives you a 12th level spell slot, from which you can cast a 13th level Sanctum Spell.

You could instead just Dark Chaos Shuffle some pre-epic feats into Improved Spell Capacity.

[Arcanist]

Hi all!

I'm currently preparing a character for a Epic level game my roommate will DM. He has already approved the Netherese Arcanist PrC (renamed (temporarily) Primaveral Arcanist). As the starting level is 30th, I planned on my 31st level being my first in NA.

Although, I don't like an alteration to our esteemed title I am forced to understand your DM's wishes... Although I do feel that it is childish to kneel to the whims of a so called "higher being" on the basis of "because I said so" I will assist you in your problem :smallamused:


However a lot of NPCs in publications seem to qualify at level 27th. I turned that around a lot in my head and was not able to figure out how could a PC can turn NA before his 31st level. Keeping in mind that the minimum requirements are :

Feats: Improved Metamagic, Improved Spellcasting (Improved Spell Capacity)
Spells: Being able to cast a 13th-level spell.

Assuming you go pure Wizard (which a lot of these NPCs tend to be, which I will probably not do)

That we do! Rules are meant to be broken and in some cases blatently ignored! We, the mighty Archwizards of Netheril defied these very rules on a dail- NO! HOURLY basis however, I do understand your woes... It is indeed nigh impossible to even qualify for the title of "Arcanist" let alone Archwizard but, worry not! You have the aid of one such Archwizard. The training to become an Arcanist must be performed at a young age even then it is still impossible without heavy specialization...

Improved Metamagic requires a prerequisite of 4 metamagics... HA! is that all the pathetic gods can do to slow us down on our path to the true arcana of the multiverse? between Wizard 1-20 you can EASILY fit in 4 metamagics without slowing yourself down. I recommend Heighten Spell, Eschew Materials [pgtf], Quicken Spell and I personally went with Maximize Spell... I prefer to destroy my pathetic enemies... Heighten Spell allows us to exploit those additional Spell slots we have, Eschew Materials removes the limitations of a spell component pouch, Quicken Spell allows us to defy the limitations that the gods have placed upon us called "time"... HA! And Maximized Spell allows me to completely and utterly annihilate my enemies with great ease... However some choose to go with Sculpt spell but, those can hardly be considered true Arcanist... Who have accepted the title of... what do they call it? Archmages? Pfft... Modern Faerunians...

After completing our apprenticeships... We must now apply for Arcanist-hood...

We're now ready for Epic training.


featwise, as far as I can see:

21st - Improved Metamagic
24th - Improved Spellcasting (10th)
25th (Wizard bonus!) - Improved Spellcasting (11th)
27th - Improved Spellcasting (12th)
and
30th - Improved Spellcasting (13th)

And voilà! You can now be a Netherese Arcanist!

FOOL! Your time in the world of... "Pathfinder"? (ugh... Modern Faerunians...) has stunted your knowledge! Bow your head 100 NO! 1,000,000 TIMES as penitence! Hmph... I suppose you can improve... after all that is how my Mentor taught me...

For our 21st level we should improve our spell capacity to contain 10th level magics... With this you've just taken your 1st step towards Archwizardry; Are you not grateful!?

21st - Improved Spell Capacity (10th)

Now we study in the enclave of Xinlenal learning greater and greater arcane secrets from the Dweomokeepers who pray there... and we're rewarded with access to our 11th Spell slot and 12th Spell slot... They shunted you there and warned you of your constant abuse magic but, this falls on deft ears. You're an Archwizard! You hear only one voice: Yours.

21st- Improved Spell Capacity (10th)
23rd- Improved Spell Capacity (11th)
23rd- Improved Spell Capacity (12th) (bonus feat)

Ah... You're slowly approaching Archwizard-hood... Impressive my young apprentice :smallamused: I suppose you have more potential then I original thought but, do not mistake potential for actual power! If I were to truly wish it I could crush you like the insignificant bug you are! But why do that? Hmm... Perhaps you're slowly getting ready to create your own Enclave and take on the responsibilities of a more active roll in the politics of our great Empire of Magic?

21st- Improved Spell Capacity (10th)
23rd- Improved Spell Capacity (11th)
23rd- Improved Spell Capacity (12th) (bonus feat)
26th- Improved Spell Capacity (13th)

Ah... We finally have the required spell slots... BUT WHAT IS THIS!? WE'RE LACKING THE APPROPRIATE SKILL TO BECOME AN ARCHWIZARD!? (30 ranks in Spellcraft for Improved Metamagic) Hmm... Perhaps this isn't a bad thing? Yes... We have some malleability at the moment... Yes...

26th- I recommend Improved Heighten Spell or Ignore Material Components? Either way we're fine... Anything to improve our skills to the limit of power... either way we'll be getting both.

Alas we cannot become an Archwizard at any level lower then 29th...

I am impressed that you managed to endure the training this long... I do not welcome you as an apprentice but, as a fellow scholar of the art :smallamused:

[Alleran]

There is an epic item called the Codex Hammer in Dragon #297. It costs 327,000 gold and each notebook grants a bonus. This bonus is achieved if the reader studies them for 84 hours over seven days (minimum) and succeeds on a DC 30 INT check (child's play for an epic spellcaster, even taking into account that temporary INT boosts cause the check to auto-fail). There is a minimum of 31 different boosts you can gain. Each boost is the Epic Skill Focus feat for the particular skill detailed in the book you are studying (for which there are thirty-one possible feats to acquire). Each of these epic feats is gained without any need to have any prerequisite feats.

So, as a 21st level wizard with access to epic spellcasting, all the money you could desire and who isn't burdened with an overabundance of morals (because you're an epic wizard, and outgrew those silly "alignment" squabbles by 17th level), you can start playing with a Dark Chaos Shuffle. Enjoy your 31 epic feats and qualify for Netherese Arcanist while the fools doing it the long way are struggling to pass their 24th level.

[JustPlayItLoud]

You can qualify at 27.

21- Improved Spell Capacity 10
23 - Improved Spell Capacity 11 (epic wizard bonus)
24 - Improved Spell Capacity 12
26 - Improved Spell Capacity 13 (epic wizard bonus)
27 - Improved Metamagic (the PH describes the process of leveling up as applying new skill points before taking new feats, so you could have the full 30 ranks at this level)

The four metamagic feats are trivial to gain across 20 levels, especially since you have to be human to be a Netherese Arcanist. The only downside is you're pretty limited in class selection. The only classes with an established epic progression that would get you the necessary bonus feats are straight wizard or loremaster. The difference is minimal, though. Loremaster gains 2 more skill points per level, gets the Lore class ability (trivial at epic levels most probably), and take use a bonus feat slot to take a Loremaster secret instead of a regular bonus feat. The only benefit I can see is being able to take a non-bonus epic feat by spending an epic Loremaster bonus feat to take the Loremaster secret that allows any one feat as bonus.

Anyhow, you can qualify at level 27 and take the first level at 28.

Edit to add: Apparently I'm incapable of reading all of the book that is the Netherese Arcanist source material. There is also an epic progression of Incantatrix that gives the necessary bonus feats. That seems like a much more attractive option.

[Arcanist]

=>Alleran

There is an epic item called the Codex Hammer in Dragon #297. It costs 327,000 gold and each notebook grants a bonus. This bonus is achieved if the reader studies them for 84 hours over seven days (minimum) and succeeds on a DC 30 INT check (child's play for an epic spellcaster, even taking into account that temporary INT boosts cause the check to auto-fail). There is a minimum of 31 different boosts you can gain. Each boost is the Epic Skill Focus feat for the particular skill detailed in the book you are studying (for which there are thirty-one possible feats to acquire). Each of these epic feats is gained without any need to have any prerequisite feats.

I did not know such an item actually existed :smallconfused: Impressive and incredibly useful for Chaos shuffling :smallamused:


So, as a 21st level wizard with access to epic spellcasting, all the money you could desire and who isn't burdened with an overabundance of morals (because you're an epic wizard, and outgrew those silly "alignment" squabbles by 17th level), you can start playing with a Dark Chaos Shuffle. Enjoy your 31 epic feats and qualify for Netherese Arcanist while the fools doing it the long way are struggling to pass their 24th level.

... So... How did you get 30 ranks in Spellcraft for Improved Metamagic? :smallconfused:

=>JustPlayItLoud

You can qualify at 27.

Yes you can! but just answer me this one question: How are you getting a feat? Oh! We can read one of those Codex Hammers and chaos shuffle the skill focus for Improved Metamagic and BAM! We qualify :smallbiggrin:

Would you look at that! Earliest qualifications level is 27th :smallbiggrin:

[Douglas]

Wizard bonus feat progression speeds up in epic, to 1 per 3 levels. In fact, pretty much every class ever gets bonus feats in its epic progression, and most of them are 1 per 3 levels. Hathran, for some reason, is 1 per 2 levels.

Even using 3.5 feat progression instead of Pathfinder, the 5 epic feats needed are easily achieved by level 27 with 6 levels of almost any casting class's epic progression. If you use Pathfinder feat acquisition rate and Hathran, you could pick up that many epic feats at level 25. Improved Metamagic's skill rank requirement still forces you to wait for level 27, though, unless you use shenanigans to exceed the skill rank cap.


Yes you can! but just answer me this one question: How are you getting a feat? Oh! We can read one of those Codex Hammers and chaos shuffle the skill focus for Improved Metamagic and BAM! We qualify :smallbiggrin:

Would you look at that! Earliest qualifications level is 27th :smallbiggrin:
Er, normal character level progression gives you an epic feat at level 27 automatically. No shenanigans of any sort required.

[JustPlayItLoud]

=>JustPlayItLoud


Yes you can! but just answer me this one question: How are you getting a feat? Oh! We can read one of those Codex Hammers and chaos shuffle the skill focus for Improved Metamagic and BAM! We qualify :smallbiggrin:

Would you look at that! Earliest qualifications level is 27th :smallbiggrin:

Er, you're getting a feat by virtue of being 27th level, via 27 being a multiple of 3. Or is there some point you're making that I seem to be missing?

Edited because I fail at reformatting quotes.

[Arcanist]

Er, normal character level progression gives you an epic feat at level 27 automatically. No shenanigans of any sort required.


Er, you're getting a feat by virtue of being 27th level, via 27 being a multiple of 3. Or is there some point you're making that I seem to be missing?

Edited because I fail at reformatting quotes.


Every character gains one feat (which may be an epic or nonepic feat at the player’s choice) at every level divisible by three. These feats are in addition to any bonus feats granted in the class descriptions.

Well I feel like I walked into a room with my pants down :smalltongue: I made the mistake of a personal interpretation and actual rules.

[JustPlayItLoud]

Alright! Now that we're all on the same page about that, we have to come to a consensus on how to console all those Netherese Arcanists who go through all the feat acquiring trouble only to get epic spellcasting a full four levels after those damnable Elven High Mages.

[Arcanist]

Alright! Now that we're all on the same page about that, we have to come to a consensus on how to console all those Netherese Arcanists who go through all the feat acquiring trouble only to get epic spellcasting a full four levels after those damnable Elven High Mages.

Personally I view the benefits of being a Netherese Arcanist easily over shot by the ability to just take Epic Spellcasting at level 21 and rule the world :smalltongue:

EDIT: But yes, If asked. I'd rather use Netherese Archwizardry instead of Elven High Magic (since it requires me to give something seriously? wtf is that about? It's magic! I take stuff because it's rightfully mines...)

[Endarire]

Go epic Incantatrix.

[Alleran]

... So... How did you get 30 ranks in Spellcraft for Improved Metamagic? :smallconfused:
Hmm, I missed that. Okay, sidestep for a level into Illithid Savant (qualify via PaO), chow down on somebody for their Spellcraft ranks (you only need six), remove your PaO, and take your next level in Netherese Arcanist. So 23rd level. I'm sure there are other methods to boost skill ranks as well, I'm just too tired to think of them right now. For an epic wizard, it should be easily accomplished.

[Lord_Goat]

Ok, thanks everyone for your swift answers, truth of the matters is I forgot to take account of an Epic Wizard feat progression, so problem solved!