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View Full Version : Sneak Attack to Spellcasting



JonathonWilder
2012-08-21, 12:28 AM
What would be a fair trade off for replacing sneak attack for a rogue (or other classes that give sneak attack) to gain spellcasting? Perhaps I can even make the rogue a bit stronger.

LordErebus12
2012-08-21, 12:31 AM
lose half the sneak attack progression for bard spells, at a -1 spell/day per level.

add in the ability to cast in light armor plus maybe this:

10th - Wand Mastery (Ex): when a rogue uses a wand containing a spell on his spell list, he uses his Charisma bonus to set the wand's save DC. At 16th level, when using such a wand, he uses his caster level in place of the wand's caster level.

JonathonWilder
2012-08-21, 12:34 AM
lose half the sneak attack progression for bard spells, at a -1 spell/day per level.

How about wizard spells? Also what about all sneak attack progression? You see for the rogue I am considering he wont be using sneak attack at all and would find spellcasting far more useful.

LordErebus12
2012-08-21, 12:41 AM
How about wizard spells? Also what about all sneak attack progression? You see for the rogue I am considering he wont be using sneak attack at all and would find spellcasting far more useful.

the concept of using wizard spells and losing sneak attack like that on a rogue is sickening... and i failed the fort save... no, that diminishes almost the entire feel of the rogue. you get a powerful wizard with better reflex saves and BAB, then factor in the immensely different methods of how they gain their abilities. one through intense study and research, the other through guile and street smarts. I have trouble seeing it. now diminished casting of bard spells allows the use of healing spells and other more rogue-ish spells. you gain up to 5d6 sneak attack on top of that. invisibility spells and illusions backed on pure stealth. mine seems logical.

LordErebus12
2012-08-21, 12:44 AM
now if we are talking 3.5, look at beguiler list for a spell list.

JonathonWilder
2012-08-21, 12:51 AM
The beguiler could work but has anyone made a conversion, one that is actually viable with the increased bonuses and abilities of Pathfinder classes?

The big thing I am looking for the skills and skill points of a rogue with many of the rogue talents, mixed with the wizard spelling but most likely at a decreased rate.
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Hmm... your idea could work and I will look into it.

LordErebus12
2012-08-21, 12:58 AM
The beguiler could work but has anyone made a conversion, one that is actually viable with the increased bonuses and abilities of Pathfinder classes?

The big thing I am looking for the skills and skill points of a rogue with many of the rogue talents, mixed with the wizard spelling but most likely at a decreased rate.
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Hmm... your idea could work and I will look into it.

another thing you could do is make a compiled list of spells from all 4 core books then pick out every spell that works or pick out three schools and add every spell with those schools into a compiled list. use that from then on as a basis. takes a few hours but its truly getting down to the gritty heart of the problem.

Vadskye
2012-08-21, 01:04 AM
Ignoring other class features that it trades relative to the rogue, the spellthief trades about half its sneak attack progression for 4th level spellcasting. You could use that as a baseline.

JonathonWilder
2012-08-21, 01:05 AM
another thing you could do is make a compiled list of spells from all 4 core books then pick out every spell that works or pick out three schools and add every spell with those schools into a compiled list. use that from then on as a basis. takes a few hours but its truly getting down to the gritty heart of the problem.

I will do such, probably using the beguiler spell list as a basis to start with.

Also if I were to do a bard/rogue combo I would just see if I could play a Songfilch: http://mcarchetype.wikispaces.com/Songfilch

LordErebus12
2012-08-21, 01:08 AM
I will do such, probably using the beguiler spell list as a basis to start with.

Also if I were to do a bard/rogue combo I would just see if I could play a Songfilch: http://mcarchetype.wikispaces.com/Songfilch

Songfilch is rather weak and still pretty raw in my opinion. I look forward to viewing this spell list once complete.

JonathonWilder
2012-08-21, 01:09 AM
Ignoring other class features that it trades relative to the rogue, the spellthief trades about half its sneak attack progression for 4th level spellcasting. You could use that as a baseline.
Yes thank you, though like I said I don't want any sneak attack as my character will not be back stabbing anyone... though I admit I could simply be foolishly biased against sneak attack. I can't explain why that is but find it annoying that I need to worry about such to make a good infiltrator based character.

JonathonWilder
2012-08-21, 01:10 AM
Songfilch is rather weak and still pretty raw in my opinion.

What is weak about it? I see it as better then a rogue personally, also more flavorful.

LordErebus12
2012-08-21, 01:13 AM
Yes thank you, though like I said I don't want any sneak attack as my character will not be back stabbing anyone... though I admit I could simply be foolishly biased against sneak attack. I can't explain why that is but find it annoying that I need to worry about such to make a good infiltrator based character.

I could rationalize that wizard who studied anatomy for a long time could gain sneak attack due to the knowledge of hitting weak spots while stealthed or when flanking. think about it, sneak attack is just that, knowing the spots and seizing the opportunities. An Int based caster that has stealthy features just deserves sneak attack in my mind.

LordErebus12
2012-08-21, 01:15 AM
What is weak about it? I see it as better then a rogue personally, also more flavorful.

rogue from pathfinder has way more favor, effectively drawing from a big pools or abilities from both ninja tricks and rogue talents. i dont see the songfilch as a complete class in my opinion, it feels raw to me, i dont knwo why.

JonathonWilder
2012-08-21, 01:20 AM
I could rationalize that wizard who studied anatomy for a long time could gain sneak attack due to the knowledge of hitting weak spots while stealthed or when flanking. think about it, sneak attack is just that, knowing the spots and seizing the opportunities. An Int based caster that has stealthy features just deserves sneak attack in my mind.

Hmm you make a good point... okay I will lighten up on sneak attack.

Question, if I were to PM you links to some of the other classes I like on the site where the Songfilch is found could you give your thoughts on them and even tier rate them?

LordErebus12
2012-08-21, 01:24 AM
Hmm you make a good point... okay I will lighten up on sneak attack.

Question, if I were to PM you links to some of the other classes I like on the site where the Songfilch is found could you give your thoughts on them and even tier rate them?

thoughts, yes. tier and rate, doubt it, i dont understand classes like that.