(PF) STR based Fighter/Rogue Advice

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

SO. I am looking to build a soldier, with a sort of commando/saboteur bent. I figure Rogue is a good place to start. I would prefer a two handed power attack approach. I went with a scimitar instead of a falchion in case i need to use a weapon one handed: holding a potion, wand, scroll, valuable artifact, rope/ladder, dragging an ally, etc. Besides, I only lose out on 1 point of damage, average.

Then again, a couple TWF feats to go with the sneak attack may not be so bad for full attack flanking/invisibilty, along with a spiked gauntlet or cestus.

Any thoughts or advice is much appreciated.

20 point buy, human

(Fighter 1/Rogue 1/Fighter 4/Rogue 2/Fighter 1/Rogue 1/Fighter 2)

STR 15 (17)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 7

traits:
Armor Expert
Carefully Hidden or Dangerously Curious?

1 Power Attack
1 Weapon Focus
3 Improved Initiative
5 Iron Will
7 Lunge
9 Improved Critical: Scimitar
11 Critical Focus: Scimitar
13 Great Cleave

Fighter Feats
1 Furious Focus
2 (3) Cleave
4 (5) Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
5 (6)Weapon Training: Heavy Blades
6 (9) Greater Weapon Focus
8 (12) Greater Weapon Specialization
9 (13) Weapon Training: ??
10(14) Staggering Critical


I would pick up a mithril breastplate, a scimitar, and the usual cloaks of resistance, etc. I was also going to invest in a Circlet of Persuasion for UMD and talking to guards/sentries or whatever.

Should i stick with the scimitar and critical feats, or perhaps should i branch out to power attacking/TWF with a longsword and a cestus?

Anyway, thanks in advance!

[Dayaz]

unless you buff up your dex quite a bit, you can't take the dual wielding feats... I'll come back to this later today and it's not 4 in the morn, and I'm awake enough to try and puzzle this together

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Awesome. TWF was a mere consideration, not a definite thing. I await with bated breath...

[Dayaz]

one a personal note, I now know what my next feat is going to be for my rl fighter (how the bloody hell did I miss Furious Focus?)

you also have feats listed for levels 13 and 14, but your build only goes to 12... are those future feats?

First things first: Weapon Training isn't a feat, it's a class feature ^^ so you get 2 more feats than you thought you would. About that second one, however, you might want to choose weapon training in either a mace, for an alternate damage type (for those pesky dr/bludgeoning monsters) or a piercing one. I Might also suggest Training with a ranged weapon.

possible good feats for you:
-The Extra Rogue Talent one. More Rogue Talents never hurt, really.
-Leadership for the Cohort (I've seen one for just a cohort, talk to your dm) build the cohort as a rogue/fighter and commit flanking shenanigans. You'll have a slightly weaker cohort than you would with a better Cha, but you can stack other bonuses to make up for it. (talk to your dm, they'll want to work with you on making sure this guy won't break your game (if you build them exactly like you, they could be a younger sibling, which could give a cohort bonus and make for good rp))
-perhaps even the Vital Strike feat? I don't really like it but I've put it in builds and wrecked with it so it's not too bad.

Archetypes: Maybe the Poisoner from Rogue? You have the free hand, so dosing you weapon and power attacking with a poisoned blade could be pretty nasty (you'll want levels in Craft Alchemy tho, poisons are really expensive)

hrm... for the Poisoner Idea, rogue talents you might want:
-Surprise Attack (makes them flat-footed in the surprise round no matter what
-Swift Poison (makes poisoning a weapon a move action instead of a standard)

another idea is to be the Cutpurse rogue... nothing like sneaking up on someone, stealing their weapon and hitting them while you're throwing their weapon past you down the hallway.

this is what I've got atm, but i'll be back

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I am aware Weapon Training is a class feature, I more properly should have labelled it "fighter features". No fighter gets bonus feats at level 5 and 9 anyway...

[Dayaz]

i thought you sere labeling what level you got them ic (they looked about right to me so I kinda ignored it)

[QuidEst]

If you're going for a poisoner rogue, you might consider just using a Vivisectionist Alchemist. You get sneak attack damage like a rogue, get a bit of casting with no arcane failure (True Strike! Expeditious Retreat!), trade Rogue Talents for Discoveries (free healing, a bit of sneak attack modification), get better poisoning free, and get the ability to slap a +4 on Str and +2 on natural armor (at an Int penalty) for 10 min/Alchemist level/day. If you need Evasion, throw on the Internal Alchemist archetype.

(As an added bonus, you can use a range of magic wands without bothering with UMD.)

[Dayaz]

Eh, I was the one who suggested the poisoner... the OP is just trying to do some Optimization for a fighter/rogue

[QuidEst]

Eh, I was the one who suggested the poisoner... the OP is just trying to do some Optimization for a fighter/rogue

Sure. I'm suggesting that, depending on what he wants Rogue for, Vivisectionist Alchemist might get him a good equivalent with a few extra perks.

[ericgrau]

Your damage is high and attack bonus slightly reduced from rogue levels so PA alone doesn't work well. Furious focus makes PA viable but only on single attacks not full attacks. On full attacks you could actually lose damage from that -3.

Improved initiative and iron will are way overrated. If they were +20 and +10 they'd actually accomplish what people get them for but they are +4 and +2. They won't actually change much so only get them if you're doing 3 ranged sneak attacks round 1 and making will saves almost every single round, respectively. On a trait OTOH there's very little available so you might want to improve a save (or the other 2 you listed are good too). If you want to THF single attacks then TWF full attacks you need quick draw.

Critical focus is pretty lousy but it's a pre-requisite for some good feats. So you might want to get one of those earlier. The pre-requisites for fighter feats depend on your fighter level not character level or BAB.

Any of the feat chains you're considering should work well but many require additional feats as noted above. Otherwise it's better to ditch the whole chain.

[Larpus]

[..] and get the ability to slap a +4 on Str and +2 on natural armor (at an Int penalty) for 10 min/Alchemist level/day. If you need Evasion, throw on the Internal Alchemist archetype.
Slight correction, there is nothing that says an Alchemist can only drink one Mutagen per day.

The only limitations are that an Alchemist cannot prepare more than a single dose of Mutagen, cannot benefit from more than one at the same time and that it takes 1 hour to prepare a dose.

While I agree that in many cases this will mean "once per day", that is by no means the rule.

Other than that, I also second the suggestion, especially if you go poison, throw in Sticky Poison discovery and it'll further cut your poison expenses.

Though it will depend on the OP's intention, as Alchemist are magical (despite being very mundane and scientific in both mechanics and fluff), and I can see that being something against the class.

Another option is Ninja, who also gets poison features and is more mundane than Alchemist and is widely agreed to be a better Rogue than Rogue.

[Blyte]

I suggest going half-orc instead.

Pure rogue, Skulking Slayer archetype, from the Adv. Race Guide

They are all about charging, cleaving, d8 sneaks, and 2handers.

You get great bonuses for passing for human as well.

[QuidEst]

Slight correction, there is nothing that says an Alchemist can only drink one Mutagen per day.

The only limitations are that an Alchemist cannot prepare more than a single dose of Mutagen, cannot benefit from more than one at the same time and that it takes 1 hour to prepare a dose.

While I agree that in many cases this will mean "once per day", that is by no means the rule.

Other than that, I also second the suggestion, especially if you go poison, throw in Sticky Poison discovery and it'll further cut your poison expenses.

Though it will depend on the OP's intention, as Alchemist are magical (despite being very mundane and scientific in both mechanics and fluff), and I can see that being something against the class.

This is true- it's more of a "once during the day, and again if you get ambushed that night" if you don't want to take hour-sized chunks out of the adventuring day.

As to being magical, it's true. But I figure it's not too far from mixing up poison, especially with the instant bombs out of the picture.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Your damage is high and attack bonus slightly reduced from rogue levels so PA alone doesn't work well. Furious focus makes PA viable but only on single attacks not full attacks. On full attacks you could actually lose damage from that -3.

Improved initiative and iron will are way overrated. If they were +20 and +10 they'd actually accomplish what people get them for but they are +4 and +2. They won't actually change much so only get them if you're doing 3 ranged sneak attacks round 1 and making will saves almost every single round, respectively. On a trait OTOH there's very little available so you might want to improve a save (or the other 2 you listed are good too). If you want to THF single attacks then TWF full attacks you need quick draw.

Critical focus is pretty lousy but it's a pre-requisite for some good feats. So you might want to get one of those earlier. The pre-requisites for fighter feats depend on your fighter level not character level or BAB.

Any of the feat chains you're considering should work well but many require additional feats as noted above. Otherwise it's better to ditch the whole chain.

I've had a lot of good advice from you before, eric grau, so I am all ears!

1.) You appear to be saying Power Attack isn't worth it. I thought that power attack with a full BAB class is where it is at for martial characters and damage.

2.) I agree Improved Initiative and Iron Will aren't the best feats, but what else should i spend feats on?

3.) for my TWF thing, I was saying i would use a cestus or spiked gauntlet for full attacks when I get sneak attack... And use two handed Power Attack with a longsword otherwise. Hence, I would not need Quick Draw.

4.) what feat chains would you suggest then? Im all ears!

[Larpus]

Improved Initiative is good, not as vital to you as for a spellcaster (let's face it, there's no 1 round game breakers to be had), but moving early is still good, the bonus might not look like much, but it's the equivalent of +8 Dex, or in dices, about +20% chance, which is pretty big without being completely binary. That said, there is a trait that gives +2 Initiative, so that's the go-to option for feat-starved builds.

Iron Will is not the greatest, but wasn't meant to be, otherwise every Fighter would get it and be impervious to Will saves. Still, about +10% to cover your obvious glaring fault is good. Playing the devil's advocate, since you have Iron Will on your list, unless going human is a big part of your concept (or you really, really want that extra skill point), I'd say to go half-elf (who "gets" Iron Will) or half-orc (who has the option for Sacred Tattoo, +1 to all saves) as both get things that in most people's books are better than +1 skill point/level (darkvision comes to mind).

Power Attack is good, however if you have way too many 3/4 or 1/2 BAB class levels it may hurt if you have no way to buff yourself to compensate (which is why the Alchemist is considered so awesome as he has a free +4 Str, pretty much negating the gap of full BAB and 3/4 BAB until higher levels).

And Furious Focus is still worth it, sure, it's for standard actions only, but without Pounce, do expect to move and attack a lot, that + Cleave is the poor man's Pounce.

As for other feat options, get some Maneuver. They're not more damage, but they add versatility, something any combatant intrinsically lacks. Which maneuver will depend on campaign, but Trip is overall the best and quite versatile; Disarm is also great if you'll fight many humanoids and Bull Rush has some interesting options (though Barbarians have it better).

If you have trouble qualifying for Combat Expertise (or just don't want to get it as it's a dumb feat tax), grab a level of Maneuver Master Monk and go to town. Will lower your BAB, but will give you Unarmed Strike (so you can benefit from Intimidate + Enforcer if you want to), no pre-req Improved Maneuver and "Iron Will" + "Lightning Reflexes"; you need to be Lawful though (or add it to your background as your initial alignment or something, but that doesn't fly with most DMs).

[ericgrau]

I've had a lot of good advice from you before, eric grau, so I am all ears!

1.) You appear to be saying Power Attack isn't worth it. I thought that power attack with a full BAB class is where it is at for martial characters and damage.

2.) I agree Improved Initiative and Iron Will aren't the best feats, but what else should i spend feats on?

3.) for my TWF thing, I was saying i would use a cestus or spiked gauntlet for full attacks when I get sneak attack... And use two handed Power Attack with a longsword otherwise. Hence, I would not need Quick Draw.

4.) what feat chains would you suggest then? Im all ears!

1) It is worth it on single attacks with furious focus. Don't use it on full attacks because those secondaries need to hit, but I suppose with TWF you wouldn't do that anyway. Basically high damage + reduced attack bonus (a fighter X is still a couple points ahead of you) = don't PA normally. When your damage is already high it's more important that you hit. Or missing could cost you more than you gain. But with furious focus you can at least use it on single attacks with no drawback.

3) Ah, missed that.

2 & 4) More crit and TWF stuff if you want. Vital strike is nice for single attacks too. Round 1 try going for a foe who hasn't acted and so is flat-footed: furious focus power attack vital strike sneak attack. If that doesn't leave a nice enough crater try adding a scabbard of vigor (APG) and a spell storing weapon. Then after all that improved initiative might barely be worth it. But again you can usually still manage w/o it and it doesn't always work. Or get whatever you want; you have 2 more feats to improve an existing tactic or branch out a bit. If you need more feats you could cut out an existing focus too. Play your preference mostly, I'm only trying to make whatever you go with work.

As for iron will, it's not that covering a weakness is bad, it's that you don't make will saves every round. 10% for one time in the distant future isn't worth a feat. It probably won't even change the result of your save. Here's what you can do though: buy the cleric some scrolls of things like protection from evil (stops charm/dominate), remove paralysis, etc. 1 of each isn't too expensive especially at level 12. 1 is probably all you'll ever need (or restock after the fight) and as long as he has the right scroll it works 100% of the time.

[Paul H]

Hi

I know it's a bit 'out of the box', but what about a Synthesist/Rogue build?

You can get good AC/HP, gain extra limbs & nat attacks for your sneaks, plus plenty other abilities.

Problem is where do you split your classes (Ie at what levles)?

Thanks
Paul H