How much is 20 levels of outsider worth

[Morithias]

Assume you took a class that was basically 20 straight levels of outsider. D8 hit dice, full bab, all good saves, 8+int skill points, outsider type. With no class abilities

Would that

a. Be worth so much it needs an LA
b. Be worth exactly the same as say 20 levels of monk or fighter
c. Be worth so little that it needs some other perks.

If you pick "C" what would you consider fair play in terms of stat boost or other gains?

This "class/build" is going to be based around hand-to-um..claw combat, so please do not recommend spells or spell-like abilities.

I can't really "link" to what this is based off of on this forum, since it's from an eroge. Basically imagine a demon's servant with huge claws who basically can barely talk except for saying "kill" and wanting to cut people in two.

[eggs]

I'd go with something between B and C. It's going to have big numbers, but they won't be a huge step up from Ranger, and won't have its utility abilities. Magic items are going to power the actions it has available, in the same way that they power unACFed Monks and Fighters; as with those cases, I would consider that a problem that could use some buffing on a player character.

A sprinkling of non-numeric abilities to take a bit of the load off its items would probably be a good call. It would probably be a bad idea to touch it with anything resembling a +numbers ability or quality.

[Essence_of_War]

It's a great chassis, but without some relevant class features I suspect it's going to look pretty poor when stacked up against other 20th level, moderately optimized melee builds.

What sort of power level is your party? Are you in a party with full casters/manifesters? Or will you be traveling alongside Monks, Samurai, and Fighters?

If the former, I'd say you need some sort of active abilities to go with your chassis. Maybe a sprinkling of ToB maneuvers? Maybe let every 4th level of outsider give maneuvers as 1 additional level of Crusader or Warblade? If the latter, you're probably fine as just a chassis, if maybe a little inflexible and unexciting to play.

[Logic]

Definitely C. Pure bare bones numbers do not make up for lack of class features. Not even outsider immunities.

[Morithias]

What sort of power level is your party? Are you in a party with full casters/manifesters? Or will you be traveling alongside Monks, Samurai, and Fighters?

No bloody clue, the group hasn't met for so bloody long that I basically make characters for the hell of it, cause I'm bored. However my group tends to be fairly moderate to high optimization.

[Lans]

Expert is on par with monk and fighter, so if it has any class skill then it should be in the high tier 5/low tier 4 ball park

[Menteith]

I'd say "C". Both a Fighter and Monk can be optimized into powerful characters, and even with only mild optimization, can be much more powerful than any chassis (even a decent one). Off the top of my head, here's an idea.

Level 1: 2 Claws (Primary Natural Weapons dealing 1d8 base damage for a Medium creature, Rend (If the character hits with both claw attacks, they latch onto the opponent’s body and tear the flesh. This attack automatically deals an additional [Claw Damage+1.5*Str] points of damage.)
Level 3: DR2/Magic
Level 5: Claw Pounce (on a Charge, may attack with both Claws)
Level 6: Overgrown Claws I (Claws are treated as one size larger for the purposes of damage), DR4/Magic
Level 9: DR6/Good
Level 10: Demon Claws (Claws are treated as Adamantine weapons, Claw critical range becomes 18-20, x3. Doesn't stack with any other effects that change crit range.)
Level 12: Overgrown Claws II (Claws are treated as two sizes larger for the purposes of damage), DR8/Good
Level 15: DR10/Cold Iron and Good, Improved Rend (Rend damage doubles, increasing to [Claw Damage*2+3*Str])
Level 18: Overgrown Claws III (Claws are treated as three sizes larger for the purposes of damage), DR12/Cold Iron and Good
Level 20: Fiend Claws (Claw critical range becomes 15-20, x4. Doesn't stack with any other effects that change crit range. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body, as a Vorpal weapon.)

A small scaling bonus during the even levels (something like +1 hit @ level 2 and every 4 levels after and a +1 damage @ level 4 and every 4 levels thereafter) to fill up dead levels might be reasonable too.

You'll be able to pierce through DR a bit better, you'll be a little bit more durable, and you'll have an alright attack sequence with Claw/Claw/Rend going pretty early, which seems like it'd fit the flavor you want. To be honest, this still isn't very powerful, but it at least has some abilities. You could improve this by giving out Improved Grab [Claw] and Rake for more varied attack options, by giving straight Str/Con boosts, by increasing the DR amounts, by giving a Rage progression/other class abilities, or giving a partial maneuver progression. I was shooting for about a Dungeoncrasher's power level, except on a better chassis.

[killianh]

Closest to C but depends on a couple of factors. If you end up with a bunch of abilities later on that are dependent on HD than its not so bad. Despite you asking otherwise, a sprinkle of SLAs related to plane and/or alignment might be the best route.

A thing to look up for this would be Deities and Demigods. Almost of the gods listed are 20 HD outsiders followed by 30-50 character levels and Divine abilities. Another useful look-up would be the astral diva break down provided in Savage Species. It ends up being an ECL 20 by the end of it's progression with only 12 HD. Using that as a basis and striping awake certain aspects you'll eventually find a nice balance between HD and granted abilities for an outsider styled class

[Urpriest]

It's weak, but more to the point it's a waste of resources. There is so much out there that can be used to make a demonic melee combatant that just giving a pile of outsider HD and some natural attacks on an essentially fluffless concept when you could pick a preexisting demon and give them class levels in some interesting melee class just feels inelegant.

[GenghisDon]

I'd go with B

In groups where the fighter, monk, ect (tier 5) need boosting, so will the baseline outsider. beyond that, it's directly comprable to the Tier 5 classes, better in some ways, less in others.

This assumes the outsider has armor/shield proficiency, of course.

[nedz]

We looked at Monk 20 going for outsider levels into epic, and concluded that Epic Monk was better. Does this answer your question ?

A Full BAB skill monkey has its appeal, and Outsider type is good for things like Alter Self, but without class features: meh.

It would fit some character concepts, but you'd want to multi-class.

[Morithias]

It's weak, but more to the point it's a waste of resources. There is so much out there that can be used to make a demonic melee combatant that just giving a pile of outsider HD and some natural attacks on an essentially fluffless concept when you could pick a preexisting demon and give them class levels in some interesting melee class just feels inelegant.

Yeah but the point of this character was that she was a unique creature, not some nameless Succubus with Battledancer levels.

Thanks for your insight though.

[limejuicepowder]

Yeah but the point of this character was that she was a unique creature, not some nameless Succubus with Battledancer levels.

Thanks for your insight though.

What makes a succubus with battledancer levels nameless?

[Urpriest]

Yeah but the point of this character was that she was a unique creature, not some nameless Succubus with Battledancer levels.

Thanks for your insight though.

See, that's exactly my point though. If you've got a unique, ECL 20 fiend, it's going to have a suite of unique supernatural abilities, SLAs up the wazoo even for the bruiseriest of bruisers...just an outsider chassis and some natural weapons is like making the character out of Tofu. At least you can shape some steaks into form.

[Morithias]

What makes a succubus with battledancer levels nameless?

Cause it's a succubus. This is suppose to an Apostle, a unique creature made by the a sealed demon as an elite creature (not at full power during the campaign due to the demon being sealed or killed, which is why despite being "elite" it would lose to a Balor). It is one of a kind, not some mook.

edit: thanks for your insight ur-priest. Currently working with one of my friends to balance this, might post it for review after completion.

[The Glyphstone]

For that matter, a succubus with battledancer levels would be hardly nameless - the very fact that she had class levels, and of an unusual class, would warrant status and notoriety. Having a name doesn't make a creature special, special creatures deserve names.

[Morithias]

For that matter, a succubus with battledancer levels would be hardly nameless - the very fact that she had class levels, and of an unusual class, would warrant status and notoriety. Having a name doesn't make a creature special, special creatures deserve names.

"Apostle Shikibu" is her name, but you do make a very good point I suppose.

[Lans]

Give it an alignment aura, at 3rd start giving it a type and associated traits, or if associated abilities are too powerful work into it over a few levels.

Like for example an archron gets


Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
Aura of Menace (Su):
Immunity to electricity and petrification.
+4 racial bonus on saves against poison.
Magic Circle against Evil (Su)
Teleport (Su):
Tongues (Su):.


Start with a bonus to saves to electricity and petrification, at about 10th make him immune
Give him the vision bonuses
Move him through the teleport chain 2-4 levels later than a wizard would be able to, same thing with comprehend languages and tongues,
Give him the aura of menace at 5th
Magic circle at 7th

Then you can work on giving it other abilities

[Analytica]

Maybe outsider chassis with half-fiend SLAs?

[charcoalninja]

Outsider HD with a specific outsider subtype like Angel or Archon would be solid. Due to the additional abilities they get. Devil for example gets immune to fire and poison, see in darkness, telepathy 100', resist acid and cold 10, and the ability to summon other devils. Add greater teleport at will and some token spell likes and you're good to go.

[Urpriest]

One suggestion: if you can get ahold of a copy, the very last Dragon ever published had a pretty decent set of guidelines for creating your own demon princes. I'd use that, then cut things down to make the ECL work out.