Mind flayers, psionics, inappropriate CRs and guidance

[Crinias]

Good day all. As the title suggests, I need some advice regarding how to handle mind flayers in terms of power. In some months I will be running a 3.5 aberration/planar campaign prominently featuring our favorite brain-eating aberrations (of which there are oddly many).

Here is my dilemma: It is common knowledge that Mind flayers to begin with are very powerful creatures even at their base powers as seen in MM1.

Mind blast is enough to incapacitate low-Will characters such as fighters and rogues. Extraction is not much of a problem considering that they need to attach all four before being able to use it, but with careful planning a smart and prepared illithid (i.e. all of them) should be able to take out at least one character out of a party of four using this ability.

The psionics as presented in MM1 are not exactly powerful, but suggestion and charm person at will is nothing to sneeze at either. Plane shift remains as a last resort option, either for the mind flayer's escape or possibly to shift an enemy to another plane, because that would be a waste of food.

All this alone is probably enough for a reasonable encounter for an 8th-level party. The difficulty goes up if the illithid has minions of any sort (and what kind of self-respecting illithid is without slaves, anyway?). Your baseline illithid is enough to at least worry a not-too optimized party.

This is reasonable enough, to some extent. The real problem I've run into is psionics. While perusing through Lords of Madness for inspiration, it suggested that the inclusion of psionics might be a welcome addition to an aberration campaign since it adds to the otherness of some monsters, such as illithids (especially illithids). Furthermore, if the PCs live in a world with little to no psionics, even better, since knowing little about the enemy and their powers can naturally make the PCs even a little scared of the unknown.

Now, I've never used psionics before, so when I first had the idea for this campaign a year ago or so I obtained the Expanded Psionics Handbook and started reading through it (although since then I've mostly used the d20 SRD to search around for specific things)...

And I must admit I am stunned and amazed, but not quite floored, at the absurd amount of power the psionic counterparts to the illithids have compared to their non-psionic versions.

A baseline psionic Mind Flayer is different in one really important aspect to the normal one: it has the powers of a 9th level psion telepath instead of a few at-will spells. I cannot imagine what the authors were thinking. I mean, sure, this now accurately represents why illithids are so godsdamned feared. On the other hand, this completely changes the way I'll need to balance encounters.

If a normal illithid is CR 8 according to MM1, the illithid as presented in the EPH should be at least CR 10 or more. If I really wanted to be abusive with even one of these creatures in an encounter I could spam Psionic Dominate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dominatePsionic.htm) up to 12 times in one day or 10 times if I wanted to Augment it, more than enough to completely take control of any encounter at the expense of not being able to use other powers.

So here is my question: What do you think I should do? On the one hand I would prefer to keep the psionics in, on the other I don't want to completely massacre the PCs. I mean, I already told them that its going to be an aberration campaign and they would be well advised to be careful, but if I keep the EPH illithids it'll be hard to maintain balance.

[Mithril Leaf]

Do the same that most DMs do in a low optimization party dealing with high level casters. Play em stupid. Instill artificial stupidity in the Mind Flayers until your party is decent enough to deal with them normally. Also try to restrain yourself in the same way a caster would as far as novaing or allow 5 minute workdays for your players.

[Psyren]

Yes, Psionic Illithids have the potential to be much more powerful than their mundane counterparts. In addition to a much greater variety of abilities, they also become more SAD and, being NPCs, can afford to nova if things go south. Ammunition is not a concern for monsters, who typically only have one encounter per day (i.e. the one they either win or lose in.) And advancing them is as easy as adding more Telepath levels.

Knowing that, I would bump their CR up a notch or two over the regular mind flayer. That WotC did not do this is only further proof that they don't understand their own system.

[kabreras]

Use the savage species mechanics for mindflayers to build them less powerfull at low levels so you can have more than one in an encounter and respect a corretc ECL

[OttoVonBigby]

Planar campaign, eh? I guess my approach would be to construct the campaign such that there's an evolution in the opponents' power. That is, in the early parts of the campaign, I'd throw in some of the "sub-illithid" creature types (e.g. illithidae in Lords of Madness, & maybe there are others elsewhere), so as not to TPK. Heck, they could even be the early "bosses," and the initial enemies could be thralls or even half-mad escaped victims of the illithids. Plus some encounters with other enemies of illithids with knowledge/rumors to impart, even if they aren't exactly allies.

Might be a nice way to build up dread as your players proceed from the hinterlands of this plane to the innards, while simultaneously allowing them to learn more about the foes they will inevitably face. Knowledge is power, so learn every hour.

Or, if your players are already such D&D veterans that none of the above will faze 'em? Illithid civil war.

[Andezzar]

Or, if your players are already such D&D veterans that none of the above will faze 'em? Illithid civil war.Why would they participate in such a war unless they are illithids themselves? Just get some popcorn, enjoy the show and mop up the survivors.

[Psyren]

Why would they participate in such a war unless they are ilitids themselves? Just get some popcorn, enjoy the show and mop up the survivors.

They may not have a choice. e.g. Illithid faction A captures them (the PCs don't yet know there are factions) and an opportunity for escape presents itself when faction B launches a raid, for instance. Or faction A captures them and gives them the choice of becoming dinner, or recovering {macguffin} from faction B's stronghold.

In the second scenario, you could even have faction A supply the PCs with special items that make them resistant to Illithid attacks. It would then be the PCs' choice whether to carry out the mission or turn on their "benefactors" at some point. (Which the DM could subtly influence by having the PCs learn that faction A fully intends to betray them once they complete their mission.)

[Andezzar]

I'm not very fond of railroaded captures.

[wadledo]

I'm not very fond of railroaded captures.

Then why are you posting in this thread?

And if you haven't already, I would suggest looking into the Thoon Mind Flayers, because of their significantly lower CR, interesting backstory (Mind Flayers from the Far Realm!), and usefullness to lower level parties.

[Psyren]

I'm not very fond of railroaded captures.

It could always happen more covertly. Say, faction A sends one of their thralls to approach the PCs rather than a capture scenario. Aura Alteration can keep the thrall's alignment from being a problem, assuming he is a willing servant.

The point is that, so long as there is a pretext to buff the PCs (and protect them from an overwhelming reprisal), the risk to them for opposing these creatures can be greatly mitigated.

But the main issue is that Psionic Illithids are under-CR'ed.

[GenghisDon]

keep the psionics, raise the CR.

do NOT play them stupid, under any circumstances (well, if they have large int damage, drain or penalty, it's ok)

[Fouredged Sword]

One thing to consider is that even on a good day that John Q Tentacle wakes up on the right side of the bed and has a nice relaxing Thursday he is going to burn through a lot of power points before he even gets to breakfast.

First you have to maintain the domination of the thralls. For this we are going to use psionic dominate three or four times. It takes lots of non-mindflayers to run an enclave and they must all be constantly dominated. Even with multi-day duration you are casting several times per day to keep the hoards in check.

Then you have your power points spent protecting the enclave. Powers and such to divine and defend from threats.

Finally you have a smart character who knows better than to nova in a dangerous place like the underdark if at all possible.

A smart mindflayer will start most fights at 1/2 power points. He will be hesitant to burn through more than half the remaining points before he cuts and runs (teleport). If he uses up the last 1/4th of his power points he faces the very real possibility of facing something he can't beat before he gets a chance to rest, and without power points his main ability to escape is also lost.

This means a mindflayer who is played like a character rather than an NPC is much less of a threat than one who fights every battle like defending the brain pool, but despite that he is more likely to survive.

[Psyren]

One thing to consider is that even on a good day that John Q Tentacle wakes up on the right side of the bed and has a nice relaxing Thursday he is going to burn through a lot of power points before he even gets to breakfast.

First you have to maintain the domination of the thralls. For this we are going to use psionic dominate three or four times. It takes lots of non-mindflayers to run an enclave and they must all be constantly dominated. Even with multi-day duration you are casting several times per day to keep the hoards in check.

MF enclaves actually only dominate very few of their thralls for precisely this reason. The rest are bred, indoctrinated and mentally conditioned to serve through more mundane means (LoM 81.) And even when Dominate is used, it can be extended to days per manifestation, meaning they don't have to refresh it every morning.



Then you have your power points spent protecting the enclave. Powers and such to divine and defend from threats.

This is actually the Elder Brain's job, which is why the MFs consult and value it. As level 20 Psions, they have PP to burn on divination, crafting and wards.

EDIT: Not faulting your conclusion - just pointing out that if a DM wanted to have a fully-charged MF ready to go after the party he could do so plausibly.

[LTwerewolf]

A smart mindflayer will start most fights at 1/2 power points.

I don't recall where, but I remember seeing in one of the books that most npc caster's shouldn't begin the fight with 100% of their spells, the same would hold true for psionics as well, unless they're planning for that specific battle.

[Malroth]

1 brain/week per mindflayer * 52 weeks per year = 52 intelligent adults killed per year per mindflayer.

assuming the slaves are eaten on their 17th birthdays after giving birth to at least 2 children, then there's a minimum of 884 slaves per mindflayer. if only 10% of said slaves are rebelious enough to merit domination and every domination attempt is both extended and sucessful on the first cast there's still a minimum of 5 dominiate casts per day per mindflayer just to keep that 10% in check.

[Psyren]

1 brain/week per mindflayer * 52 weeks per year = 52 intelligent adults killed per year per mindflayer.

assuming the slaves are eaten on their 17th birthdays after giving birth to at least 2 children, then there's a minimum of 884 slaves per mindflayer. if only 10% of said slaves are rebelious enough to merit domination and every domination attempt is both extended and sucessful on the first cast there's still a minimum of 5 dominiate casts per day per mindflayer just to keep that 10% in check.

Your math is off - the minimum is 1 brain per month (LoM 74.) Also, for most enclaves, subsistence "crops" consist of lesser races (e.g. goblins and grimlocks) which mature and breed much faster than 17 years. But Illithids consider such brains to be inferior - much like living on rice - and so will conduct regular raids or slave trading for more delectable morsels.

[GenghisDon]

and nobody wants to survive merely on subsistence levels. They need lots of slaves/livestock. 1/week is probably the norm for successful groups.

What they need is "farmers". I'd have expected grimlocks in particular to be used as controls/guards on the potentially rebelious humanoid livestock, and only as food in extremis.

Domination isn't always going to need to be used. The illithids need to use their big brains more passively; placing their stock in areas they cannot escape (or at least easily) & the like. I'm sure there are many tricks they could use.

Lastly, who is to say rebelion isn't actually a serious threat & on going problem for the mind flayers? It could be the reason they haven't dominated the multiverse already. Perhaps their colonies have a tendancy to shatter every 50-500 years?

[Doc_Pippin]

Beware the Savant... Mindflayer Savant will ruin you also Im surprised that noone in such a game wanted to be a beholder w/ levels in beholder mage

[Water_Bear]

Your math is off - the minimum is 1 brain per month (LoM 74.) Also, for most enclaves, subsistence "crops" consist of lesser races (e.g. goblins and grimlocks) which mature and breed much faster than 17 years. But Illithids consider such brains to be inferior - much like living on rice - and so will conduct regular raids or slave trading for more delectable morsels.

Even with Hobgoblin slaves, who reach physical maturity in 5 years, and the Illithids keeping only the bare minimum around, that means 60 Hobgoblins for each Mind Flayer. It's a pretty unmanageable situation; even the Spartans were only outnumbered by Helots 7-to-1.

My solution would be the Ustilagor from Dragon 337 p.34; these immature Intellect Devourers are farmed by Illithids and considered "culinary delights" according to the fluff given. They are more dangerous than a Hobgoblin one-on-one, but with their Int -- controlling them would be much simpler.

Then again, there's no reason an Illithid city couldn't do both; Goblinoid slaves for labor and emergency food, Ustilagors as a staple crop, and juicy adventurer brains for public Performance Eating spectacles.

[Crinias]

MithrilLeaf and GenghisDhon - I think I'll see a compromise of your views by making the mind flayers underestimate the PCs or not take them seriously until they are at a point where they can reasonably face them with a good certainty of success. But I'm definitely not going to tone down the MF's intelligence, that's an important part of why they are dangerous. Arrogance is fine as a flaw.

We're starting the campaign at around level 7, so maybe having an illithid (even a hurt one or one without its full power points) as a boss sort of character is a good idea, despite its great power.

Regarding illithid factions, the only way I would think an illithid faction would break off would be... never. Because of the Elder Brain, dissenters are immediately killed off. The Mind Flayers of Thoon are an exception. Thoon is Thoon and Thoon is All! Oh yes, I'll see some use of them.

And Genghis, it was precisely because of the rebellion of the Gith that the illithid's haven't conquered the multiverse yet. And it was because of the schism of the Gith that the illithid weren't entirely hunted down. If both races ever reconcile the mind flayers would find themselves in deep trouble. Not that it will ever happen.

Anyway, I doubt any illithid community would ever willingly ally themselves with PCs. Manipulate perhaps, but never willingly join them.

[Mnemnosyne]

Actually, there are indeed illithid factions. I recommend digging up the 2nd Edition Monstrous Arcana book, The Illithiad. It goes into great detail about mind flayer society, behavior, factions and so on. Illithid factions are called 'Creeds' and each faction has different beliefs on how things should be accomplished. There's also the fact that there can be more than one Elder Brain, and sometimes different mind flayer communities will come into conflict. I do believe these conflicts are rare, but not impossible.

As for what to do about a psionic illithid, I agree about expending some of their power points. Unless the illithid knows that it is going to be involved in combat today, it probably only reserves about one-half to one-third of its power points for unexpected trouble. Enough to handle whatever might come, and provide it an escape if things get too rough. Otherwise, they probably use their psionic abilities pretty liberally.

Also consider that there are non-combat uses for a lot of psionic powers. Additionally, page 133 in Secrets of Sarlona has psionic versions of numerous common spells, such as Mage Hand, Mending, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Tenser's Floating Disk, and Unseen Servant. An illithid not expecting to be in a fight probably uses powers like this liberally. Why would an illithid not have an unseen servant manifested at all times, for instance? They're powerful and arrogant, so burning a power point here and there to Mage Hand would probably be pretty common, and so on.

Alternately, if the players encounter a mind flayer and its retinue prepared for combat out in the underdark, is there a reasonable chance that he has already had a random encounter that day? PC's aren't the only ones who can have random encounters, after all. Even if the mind flayer set out intending to do battle, and thus is saving its PP all for combat uses, there is the possibility that he has already encountered a fight and expended some of his power points in it.

Finally, feel free to make the players retreat. Running the bleeding hells away from a mind flayer is a completely reasonable choice of tactics. Make sure they know this - telling them, out of character, that the 'correct' resolution to some fights will be to run away may help. Remind them that if the objective of the encounter is 'survive', then running away has accomplished that objective, and they still earn experience points for it. If they fail to retreat and lose the fight...capture them. Mind flayers do like to take their enemies alive, after all, so there's an inherent reason for them not to be killed.

[Doc_Pippin]

Idea 1:

A big point missed here is the use of fear and denying the slaves access to weapons, armor, and education. one illithid could easily kill 60 lvl 1 Unarmed Hobgoblin commoners at one HP due to starvation. Not to mention the ability to dominate those who pose any tiny threat to attack the weaker ones. If you impose enough fear into the thralls they stop fighting. A great man once said the things you fear are undefeatable not by thier nature but by your approach.

Idea 2:
After enough generations of slaves are thralled into a state of passive domestication they just don't know any better than to do as told and grow to breed so that their spawn may grow and breed. its like cows. They are stronger, faster, and sturdier than a man but because they have been grown to be eaten for so many generations they don't know anything else and are kept in peaceful ignorance.

Idea 3:
I forgot exactly where I read it but it said something along the lines of all new thralls are subject to inspection and disinfection, followed by a constant psychic bombardment to ensure that they become docile and willing thralls. The same article mentioned how the Thralls are aware of what they do but are powerless to resist. Then the thralls are selectively bred to be docile. The dead thralls are then fed to the other thralls (Mad-thralls disease anyone) The same article detailed a special race of thralls that they made because they had large brains grew fast and were perfectly docile the only problem was thier lack of intellect made them bland to the illithid's taste.

[Psyren]

and nobody wants to survive merely on subsistence levels. They need lots of slaves/livestock. 1/week is probably the norm for successful groups.

The average is 1/two weeks per LoM. They'll do weekly if they can, but can survive on 1/month, and so tend to average out between the two.



What they need is "farmers". I'd have expected grimlocks in particular to be used as controls/guards on the potentially rebelious humanoid livestock, and only as food in extremis.

Grimlocks mature and breed fast though. They are not the most sumptuous fare, but I would imagine that the average illithid would alternate over a period of time - e.g. bland brain bland brain yummy brain - similar to how a sandwich is filling because of the two slices of bread.

[Fouredged Sword]

The issue is not just the food, but there are slaves that tend to much more sensitive tasks than being eaten.

Guards can likely just be charmed. That is enough that they can be trusted with weapons. Those who guard the gates and the MF's themselves are likely dominated though. You can't risk a moment of weakness and a knife in the back, or a moment of hesitation at the wrong time.

[GenghisDon]

MithrilLeaf and GenghisDhon - I think I'll see a compromise of your views by making the mind flayers underestimate the PCs or not take them seriously until they are at a point where they can reasonably face them with a good certainty of success. But I'm definitely not going to tone down the MF's intelligence, that's an important part of why they are dangerous. Arrogance is fine as a flaw.

We're starting the campaign at around level 7, so maybe having an illithid (even a hurt one or one without its full power points) as a boss sort of character is a good idea, despite its great power.

Regarding illithid factions, the only way I would think an illithid faction would break off would be... never. Because of the Elder Brain, dissenters are immediately killed off. The Mind Flayers of Thoon are an exception. Thoon is Thoon and Thoon is All! Oh yes, I'll see some use of them.

And Genghis, it was precisely because of the rebellion of the Gith that the illithid's haven't conquered the multiverse yet. And it was because of the schism of the Gith that the illithid weren't entirely hunted down. If both races ever reconcile the mind flayers would find themselves in deep trouble. Not that it will ever happen.

Anyway, I doubt any illithid community would ever willingly ally themselves with PCs. Manipulate perhaps, but never willingly join them.

L7 vs sub par mind flayer ought be fine

On factions: use any you like, or none. It's your game, you decide the details. Hell, if one didn't like the elder brain concept, it too could be jettisoned (not that you want to, it sounds like).

I'm well aware of the D&D history of the gith races; my point is that even in smaller scale enterprises, such occurances might actually be fairly common. An inheirant flaw even the illtihids, geniuses that they are, simply can't seem to erradicate.

I doubt mind flayers would truly ally with ANYTHING. All others are, at best, tools to be manipulated.

On base livestock races, humans give a far better RP feel, but any will do I suppose. The problem with "fast maturing" races is that it makes no difference really. to mature faster a creature simply would require a much higher caloric intake. Apparently young hobgoblins will eat you out of house & home.

The idea that the slaves are mere commoners (prof miner or prof fungus farmer plus other, probably listen & or sense motive) is on the right track. Armed grimlocks or perhaps better still, reptillian troops like troglodytes or even kobolds, should be able to control many times their number, especially with choke points/defensive locations. I say reptilians are ideal, based on RW facts. They require far less calories to survive.

At any rate, the mind flayers are exceedingly wasteful eaters. Grimlocks, or trogs, to eat the corpses the flayers leave behind makes for a good working balance.

Another nock on more monstrous livestock is the notion that they are likely more carnivores than omnivores or herbavores. At least that's how I picture orcs, hobgoblins & the like. They might be omnivores, but far less so than humans or elves, IMHO. They probably need meat more, and that's a problem (cannibalism only goes so far).

[Psyren]

A race of telepathic beings doesn't have much to fear from betrayal. The vast majority of slaves are unlikely to be able to acquire the necessary protections to conceal their motives from the illithidae, and certainly not from the EB.

[GenghisDon]

I tend to agree, but if in full revolt, numbers will matter, even if they are just bludgeoning their masters with rocks. Killing them doesn't help either, save to intimidate the rest.

[wadledo]

I tend to agree, but if in full revolt, numbers will matter, even if they are just bludgeoning their masters with rocks. Killing them doesn't help either, save to intimidate the rest.

In full revolt, the mind flayers mind blast as many of the idiotic slaves as possible, then fill their skulls with mind-controlling goo.

[Starbuck_II]

Psionic Dominate is Concentration or Dur 1 day (by 9th level assuming augment). So if he has other minions, he should have wasted points on them earlier that day.

He can't augment higher unless they are advanced (by levels in Psion).

[Fable Wright]

Hm... I would say that instead of 9th level Telepath manifesting, give them 9th level Wilder manifesting, minus the class features, such as Wild Surge, from the Telepath discipline and only the Telepath discipline. While still definitely stronger than the base, non-psionic Illithid, it wouldn't raise their Challenge Rating by more than 1 or 2- 6 powers known, focusing on the Will Save or Die abilities of the base Illithid. The Wilder Chassis was made to do melee combat, and as a result has far less powers learned- and so would probably fit what the designers had in mind when they gave the Illithids Telepath manifesting. You still certainly have some variety in the Illithids you throw at the party, but it's far less overwhelming. Also, I believe there was a sidebar in the XPH or CP that NPC manifesters should start encounters with no more than 1/2 their daily Power Points- representing the manifesting they've done today, what they're saving for later (deals when they know they have to manifest, work that can't be completed without pp, etc), and so on.

[Crinias]

Actually, there are indeed illithid factions. I recommend digging up the 2nd Edition Monstrous Arcana book, The Illithiad. It goes into great detail about mind flayer society, behavior, factions and so on. Illithid factions are called 'Creeds' and each faction has different beliefs on how things should be accomplished. There's also the fact that there can be more than one Elder Brain, and sometimes different mind flayer communities will come into conflict. I do believe these conflicts are rare, but not impossible.
Thanks Mnemnosyne, that will come in handy. And yeah, the eating habits of the MFs are hard to tell, aren't they? Lords of Madness is quite helpful in this regard, but the maintenance of slaves and fresh flow of brains is filled with problems of logistics. Brain raids are the only reliable method illithids have of obtaining them. Breeding their own has its own set of troubles.

It goes to show how much the MF's source of power is also their great weakness. Without the need for brains illithids would have few or no weaknesses.

[SaintRidley]

Specifically, the Creeds (and a very basic summary of their approach) are as follows:

The Creatives: researchers, seeking to develop new tech, psychic disciplines, and items. Could stretch that to a sort of transillithid philosophy through psychic empowerment.

The Awaiters: methodical, Lawful, patient. Long-term planning with contingencies.

The Possessors: greedy merchant types. Initiate trade with other races to bring in resource diversity.

The Tamers: militaristic, even martial-minded (Illithids with levels in Fighter, for example). Provide chief defense against Gith raiders.

The Thorough Biters: learning by failure, reasonable. Willing to try an approach and modify it for the next go around more than most others of the species.

The Nourishers: thrall management, acknowledge the role of thralls in the society rather than take them for granted.

The Abysmal: power through fear. A fearful enemy is more easily conquered.

The Influencers: subtlety, information gathering. Subversion and sabotage to bring target populations to their knees.

The Darkeners: seek to blot out the sun. The surface races would fall swiftly if they could achieve their goal. As a rule, they tend to fail.

The Gatherers: Illithid unification. Pool strength, merge communities, then steamroll the opposition.

The Arisers: seek to take the surface - remaining confined to the Underdark is the way to failure. Developing ways to move unhindered on the surface.

The Venerators: priestly caste of Ilsensine (and when Maanzecorian was still alive, him as well). Fanatically devoted to their goddess, to the point where they wish to join her rather than the Elder Brain.

That should give you a better idea of where tensions in Illithid society might come from.

[Doc_Pippin]

A big issue I see here is that no one is taking into account that Mindflayers while being by far the most well know are not the only type of Illithids in an Illithid society there are of course elder brains but also Ulitharid (Improved Illithid 6 tenticles very awesome), Brain Golems (Servant of the Elder Brain) , Brainstealer Dragons (Obvious but still, dragon turned illithid make great weapons and guards, can even rule illithid communites when they lack an elder brain), Illithidae (Basically Illithid Animals(cessirid, embrac, kigrid, and saltor types)), Kezreths (Living equipment made from the heads of dishonored illithids seeking to be allowed to rejoin the elder brain), Mind Worms(illithid tadpoles allowed to continue growing in a safe enviroment=Illithid assassins), Mindwitnesses (Beholder+illithid=great guard), Mozgriken(svirfneblin gnome+ illithid=Illithid uber rogues w/ only three tenticles), Nerve Swimmers (torturers), Nyraala Golems (tenticled golems often used as guards because they don't need part of the elder brain to create), Octopins (A six-tentacled, purple-skinned monstrosity with a single eye created by mind flayers), Tzakandi (Lizardfolk+Illithids=important slave labourers and personal guards), Uchuulons (Chuul+illithid=Guards and hunters), Urophions (Roper+illithid= sentries and guards), Vampire Squids (Under water illithid hunters), and Voidmind Creatures (The Perfect slaves). Mindflayers as a whole don't have to do all that much work if you look at all their minions, who in the end are all loyal to the Elder brains and thus will not attack the illithids.


Neothelids (HUGE illithid tadpoles), Alhoon (Illithid lich), Vampiric illithids, Illithocyte (Swarm of illithid tadpoles caused when an illithid community falls), Oortlings(the specifically bred food source) are excluded because they do not impact a normal illithid community all that much.

[charcoalninja]

I just want to toss my hat in here and say that the default mind flayer is much stronger than the 9th level telepath psionic version.

Plane shift at will is nutty. It can be used offensively to bamf people to Cania on a whim. 9th level telepath can't touch that. Charm, suggestion, levitate at will allow it to have armies of followers and to use its mental powers to disrupt any adventuring party attempting to fight them.

The Psionic version gives them more personality and variance, but they aren't stronger than the normies, not by a long shot.

[GeriSch]

Hell, if one didn't like the elder brain concept, it too could be jettisoned (not that you want to, it sounds like).


The elder brain disagrees and sentences you to a lifetime of work in the acid mines, which you gladly accept - all hail the elder brain! :smallwink:

[Psyren]

I just want to toss my hat in here and say that the default mind flayer is much stronger than the 9th level telepath psionic version.

Plane shift at will is nutty. It can be used offensively to bamf people to Cania on a whim. 9th level telepath can't touch that. Charm, suggestion, levitate at will allow it to have armies of followers and to use its mental powers to disrupt any adventuring party attempting to fight them.

The Psionic version gives them more personality and variance, but they aren't stronger than the normies, not by a long shot.

I disagree. Plane Shift at-will is great, but requires the MF to get into melee - a pretty bad place for them to end up unless their foes are already stunned/charmed/scattered. Remember that SLAs can be disrupted, so merely being able to plane shift at-will doesn't mean you'll be able to land it successfully. Nor would MFs be too keen on doing that since they lose out on their attackers' brain that way.

Meanwhile the psionic MF gets more potent ranged attacks (Ego Whip, Mind Thrust, Dominate), more defense (Intellect Fortress, Vigor) and more utility (Dimension Door, Dispel Psionics.) These additional abilities can result in much more varied tactics. Most notable are powers like IF and Mental Barrier, which give the creatures a productive use for their swift and immediate actions.