D&D Death, Now With 150% More Videogame!

[TopCheese]

So I hear a lot about how people hate videogames spilling over into their tabletop RPGs. However the correct influence would be a great thing... Oh don't read on if you hate video game - table top RPG mixing.


I hear DM's complain about how when a PC dies and they bring in a new character the party doesn't Role Play the new character in.

Also PC's hate to die because if they can't afford a raise or resurrection then they wasted a lot of effort and time in their character.

PC's also hate to die cause then they have to roll up a new characater and force some role play so they can be accepted in the party.

Another problem I've found is that sometimes it just doesn't make sense why a new guy/girl shows up in the middle of the dungeon/middle of the desert/middle of a dessert (I've had some weird games over the year... We were in a colossal pie).

So here is my idea to put some video game in my RPG!

1: All HP rules are the same.

2: When a character would normally die; be it at -10, - (10 + Con Mod), or whatever HP system is currently being used the PC instead is TKO.

3: TKO: Total Knock Out is when a character is not merely unconscious but is so knocked out they won't wake up for 5 minutes.

4: PTKO: Party Total Knock Out is when the entire party is in a state of TKO. What happens next is up to the DM. The DM may allow the players to respond in the previous room (a la video games), become dead, become captured, or whatever the DM wishes to do.

5: If one player is TKO and the others leave that PC behind... Then refer to number 4 for just that PC.

6: Enemies don't finish off PC's till after the battle is over for whatever reason (looting, interrogation, etc).

7: ???

8:Profit!

Some other random ideas I had for healing someone under TKO..

1: DC 15 heal check to bring the PC to 1 hp. This takes 1 minute.

2: Give a spell called "Phoenix Down" that takes away the TKO status and gives the PC 25% of their health to them. This would be a low level spell that takes a full round action to cast. Level 1 spell should do just fine, this can be an arcane, divine, or psionic spell/ower.

3: An item called "Phoenix Down" that does the same as the spell. Once placed on the body it takes one round to work.

===

So how about it? Did I get enough videogame in my RPG? Sure this screws over the church's money coming in for raising PC's but I think it would for the most part streamline some stuff.

Any suggestions?

[Snowbluff]

Do they have to be Phoenix downs? What the drop rate on actually down from phoenix? Should we expect to be farming the down come next patch? What if my familiar is a phoenix? Can I take her down?

[ThiagoMartell]

How would that interact with the DPR for my toon? What is the drop rate on top tier equipment? Will the next patch finally nerf Wizards? Can I save before fighting a boss and reload to try it again? Is ShadowKeeper allowed?How many points of Good I lose if I kill a party member? Are all classes balanced for PvP?

In all seriousness, I find your houserules evoke the feel you want. Then again, in your place, I'd just play a videogame or a boardgame.

EDIT: Btw, I have a feeling you'd enjoy 4th Edition.

[TopCheese]

How would that interact with the DPR for my toon? What is the drop rate on top tier equipment? Will the next patch finally nerf Wizards? Can I save before fighting a boss and reload to try it again? Is ShadowKeeper allowed?How many points of Good I lose if I kill a party member? Are all classes balanced for PvP?

In all seriousness, I find your houserules evoke the feel you want. Then again, in your place, I'd just play a videogame or a boardgame.

EDIT: Btw, I have a feeling you'd enjoy 4th Edition.

I hate most new video games since they don't have the same freedom that (edit: Table Top) RPGs have. I just don't like dealing with some aspects of RPGs that cause problems with game play... Why not bring in a convenient part of video games?

Actually... I like 1e,2e,4e,3.5(not core...god not core), and so far 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons. Don't get me wrong I love me some Final Fantasy with the original Final Fantasy Tactics being one of my favorite games.

Phoenix Downs can be bought for whatever the DM thinks they should be worth... perhaps use the price for a one use item of 1st level spell made by a caster level of 1?

Also you have a 25% chance of finding one on every body searched after battle.... The thrill and fear of battle builds up in the body and when an enemy dies it grows a single Phoenix feather... hahaha

Edit: From 2e to 3.0/3.5 everyone said that it was just a ploy to get money and that it became more videogamey than they liked... I didn't really find that to be a bad thing but that is what people said...

[monkey3]

You know, the thing is the group I play with would love this system. But I wouldn't do it. I know people say that a good DM adjusts his game to cater to his players. But I say screw that. I can't DM a bunch of carebears!
:smallfurious:
Sorry. I'm a little pissed off about my players quitting when half of them died :P

[Eurus]

I think it works quite well if your goal is a nonlethal campaign. I know that there are definitely some campaigns I play where a similar houserule might be suitable, and some where it wouldn't be.

[Ashtagon]

For those who like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing they'll like.

[Eurus]

For those who like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing they'll like.

Hah. I actually almost like that enough to sig-quote it.

[Ashtagon]

Hah. I actually almost like that enough to sig-quote it.

Don't quote me, quote Abe Lincoln (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/978.html).

[Allanimal]

Does the BBEG get the same benefit?
How do the PCs stop his evil plan if it just respawns in another room in 5 minutes?
This assumes the minions that swift teleport in and Phoenix dawn it the round it is TKOed somehow failed to do their job. (remember, the BBEG has dozens of these minions).

[TopCheese]

Does the BBEG get the same benefit?
How do the PCs stop his evil plan if it just respawns in another room in 5 minutes?
This assumes the minions that swift teleport in and Phoenix dawn it the round it is TKOed somehow failed to do their job. (remember, the BBEG has dozens of these minions).

Well....

If the PC's after battle doesn't kill the boss then yeah he can wake up in five minutes and come after them again.

Of course with this system PC's don't have to worry about the problem of needing a Boss alive and accidently killing it. Sure its nice to make your PCs try to conserve their abilities but from a PC perspective it is kinda.. Troublesome.

But mostly no more enemies dont't respawn unless the PC's do... as in if they got in a battle and PTKO .. Those minions who died in that vbattle would come back... Like a reset.

[Allanimal]

If the PC's after battle doesn't kill the boss then yeah he can wake up in five minutes and come after them again.


You never actually said how to kill something in this system...

Also, if things can actually die, what does something like finger of death do?
Why wouldn't the BBEG do that instead of HP damage?

[Incom]

I think this should be more of a DM thing than a rule thing. If you're beaten by something sentient that doesn't have an already-obvious reason to kill you, they take you prisoner instead, or just leave you unconscious and take your stuff (railroady, I guess, but it makes sense).

[Andorax]

Seems a bit over the top for my personal tastes...but ymmv.

There's a variant rule in UA that allows armor to convert it's armor value worth of lethal damage to nonlethal damage whenever you get hit. It's a very quick and straightforward (and exploitable...be sure to use it with players with the right mindset) fix that I'm looking at trying out in my next campaign, intended to have a 'swashbuckler' flavor to it.

That one variant alone will, I anticipate, drastically increase character survivability without completely bubble-wrapping them in plot invulnerability.

[KillianHawkeye]

You know, the thing is the group I play with would love this system. But I wouldn't do it. I know people say that a good DM adjusts his game to cater to his players. But I say screw that. I can't DM a bunch of carebears!
:smallfurious:
Sorry. I'm a little pissed off about my players quitting when half of them died :P

If that many players are dying, I would quit, too! :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

[Garwain]

If they can simply respawn after 5 min, what's stopping them from rushing in head first every single encounter?

I'd say, reward them by activating the phoenix thing after a heroic or cinematic action.

Item: Phoenix Down
Use: The item activates automatic after character hp is lower than 0. The body is teleported to the nearest safe location and restored to 0hp but stable.
Special: 3 activations possible before item is depleted. Uses can be regain when by performing an action where the risk/benefit is so high that in case of failure the character can be mortally wounded when failure, but achieved a cinematic effect when succesful. The activation action must be deliberatly and not the result of a lucky dice roll.


Example:
Player: I want to jump on the goblin 40 feet lower and break his neck in the purpose.
DM: you're facing lethal falling damage
Player: I hold the phoenix down and jump anyways.
DM: you land on the goblin, snap his neck but take lethal falling damage. Your body is teleported back to your jumping spot, but you lie unconsious on the floor.
Player: <heals back to normal> Great, now the goblin a bit further away. I take a running leap, plant my spear in the ground to cover more length and jump feet first.
DM: wow, you actually survived the falling damage. 1 activation use regained. Phoenix Down back to 3 uses.

[Dimers]

Do they have to be Phoenix downs? What the drop rate on actually down from phoenix? Should we expect to be farming the down come next patch? What if my familiar is a phoenix? Can I take her down?

Phoenix says, "You're not a good enough warrior to take me down! And if you do, I'll just rise again in fire!"

[Karoht]

Possibly easier solution.
Borrow the Action Points system.
Just charge 3 (or more, maybe 5) Action Points for a "Phoenix Down" type of effect. Cast on self or others. To encourage a bit of teamwork, maybe make it cheaper to use if cast on someone else. I recommend a Full Round Action so that there is some tactical thinking going into where and when this effect is used.
(Yes, the unconscious guy can use it, it just costs more to use it on himself)

However, if someone is horrifically beaten down (IE-Minus 100 hit points) does your Phoenix Down still work?

[Snowbluff]

Phoenix says, "You're not a good enough warrior to take me down! And if you do, I'll just rise again in fire!"

No no no no, I was going to touch your down an-

Okay, this is weird. We all where a down is and what getting down is. We aren't doing this. Much too much innuendo, especially for a scorpio.

[Knaight]

I don't really have an issue with it - historically speaking, there were a great many people removed from combat due to being seriously injured and unable to do much other than bleed out on the ground, with near instantaneous kills being incredibly rare. As such, having the default be some variety of taken out instead of always killed is viable from an in setting stand point - it's just that there will be coup de graces to finish people off, and the typical end of a TKO for every party member will probably be the party being left to die.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Phoenix says, "You're not a good enough warrior to take me down! And if you do, I'll just rise again in fire!"

So it's a pirate phoenix familiar?

[Dimers]

So it's a pirate phoenix familiar?

No, they rise again in fi-ARRrrr! :smallsmile:

[Gamer Girl]

Why is it such a problem that a new character shows up during the game? The world is full of people. So if you meet one and they join the group, what is the big deal?

Is this a Storyteller DM problem? Is it because they don't have a five page essay about the background of the new character that they can't integrate them into the game?

Meeting characters as a story goes on works just fine. Take Star Wars(IV) You start with the two droids as characters. They get bought and enslaved by Luke and then all go and meet Ben. Then as they need a ship they go and meet Han and Cheewy. Then they all go save the princess. And look you have a group of seven characters that did not ''all start out at a tavern together''.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Meeting characters as a story goes on works just fine. Take Star Wars(IV) You start with the two droids as characters. They get bought and enslaved by Luke and then all go and meet Ben. Then as they need a ship they go and meet Han and Cheewy. Then they all go save the princess. And look you have a group of seven characters that did not ''all start out at a tavern together''.

Yes, but what you did not have was Han dying in Episode V and then a smuggler/rogue bounty hunter/force-sensitive show up for no real reason other than to keep the party number the same. "New characters showing up over the first half of the first arc" is not the same as characters dying and then having new ones come in in the middle of a dungeon raid. Especially not when the dungeon is hell and the new guy is 24th level.

[ThiagoMartell]

Yes, but what you did not have was Han dying in Episode V and then a smuggler/rogue bounty hunter/force-sensitive show up for no real reason other than to keep the party number the same. "New characters showing up over the first half of the first arc" is not the same as characters dying and then having new ones come in in the middle of a dungeon raid. Especially not when the dungeon is hell and the new guy is 24th level.

One Piece says hi.

[Hiro Protagonest]

One Piece says hi.

It's still not to replace a dead character, so it's still not "hey, have you ever noticed that whenever one of us dies, a new guy comes along?".

[Knaight]

One Piece says hi.

One Piece is pretty much a shining example of bad storytelling, so it probably isn't the best example.

[ThiagoMartell]

One Piece is pretty much a shining example of bad storytelling, so it probably isn't the best example.

One Piece is the best shounen manga ever and goes way beyond the boundaries of it's genre. I have two teachers working thesis on the value of shounen manga as literature because they were introduced to One Piece.


It's still not to replace a dead character, so it's still not "hey, have you ever noticed that whenever one of us dies, a new guy comes along?".

That's the reason behind Raise Dead.

[Hiro Protagonest]

One Piece is pretty much a shining example of bad storytelling, so it probably isn't the best example.

I disagree. It was really slow up until they got to the Sanji/Nami recruitment arcs, but at that point, things got more interesting.

Sure, ever-increasing power levels can put off some people, and is the glaring flaw of the other two members of the Big Three, but those power levels were foreshadowed from early on, and are rather internally consistent (the farther into the Grand Line you get, the more powerful people get. That, and the fact that some super-strong fishman pirates that established a beachhead on human land are only worth a low-ranking corrupt Marine and his crew is a pretty good commentary on what the Marines consider important), and overall, the story is pretty good. Sure, there were some low spots (zombies? Really? Well, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that there's a Devil Fruit for that. But did you have to call it Thriller Bark?), but overall, it's pretty good.

[junglesteve]

One Piece is the best shounen manga ever and goes way beyond the boundaries of it's genre. I have two teachers working thesis on the value of shounen manga as literature because they were introduced to One Piece.



That's the reason behind Raise Dead.

Fo real? The literary value of one piece seemed to be on the same level as fist of the north star to me.

[Gamer Girl]

Yes, but what you did not have was Han dying in Episode V and then a smuggler/rogue bounty hunter/force-sensitive show up for no real reason other than to keep the party number the same. "New characters showing up over the first half of the first arc" is not the same as characters dying and then having new ones come in in the middle of a dungeon raid. Especially not when the dungeon is hell and the new guy is 24th level.

Um...well, you know that did kinda happen in Episode V! Han did 'die' as in he was removed from the story line as an active character. But, low and behold, they ''just happened'' to run into another smuggler/rogue guy to replace Han. Hummmmm?

Why is meeting new characters in a dungeon, or anywhere, such a big deal?

[Andorax]

I don't really have an issue with it - historically speaking, there were a great many people removed from combat due to being seriously injured and unable to do much other than bleed out on the ground, with near instantaneous kills being incredibly rare. As such, having the default be some variety of taken out instead of always killed is viable from an in setting stand point.

Don't bring historic into it...or else we'll have to start talking about fatalities from infections....and I'm sure the OP doesn't want to go there ;)

Though that does remind me of another "thematic" campaign I ran...very knightly. PCs knocked into the negatives weren't unconscious, they were just too wounded to be able to take physical action, and too much in pain to take mental actions. It allowed them to still be more-or-less present, to groan out a few words, etc. Below -10, and they still aren't dead-dead, it's just that they're now into "last words", and the actual dying waited until the end of the scene/encounter.

[Morph Bark]

DMs who complain about players not RPing their new characters into a party are rather hypocritical, as they should be providing a good situation for the new character to first appear in and join the party.

[Ashtagon]

If that many players are dying, I would quit, too! :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

If I was playing in that game and the players respawned, I'd quit and RUN.

[Ashtagon]

If that many players are dying, I would quit, too! :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

If I was playing in that game and the players respawned, I'd quit and RUN.

[Ashtagon]

One Piece is the best shounen manga ever and goes way beyond the boundaries of it's genre. I have two teachers working thesis on the value of shounen manga as literature because they were introduced to One Piece.

Saying something is the best shounen manga ever is like saying it's the best copy of The Beano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beano) ever. While it may be of academic curiosity, it's still not an amazing example of story-telling.

[ThiagoMartell]

Saying something is the best shounen manga ever is like saying it's the best copy of The Beano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beano) ever. While it may be of academic curiosity, it's still not an amazing example of story-telling.
Literary prejudice detected. I'd advise studying modern literary theory before claiming a media or genre has lesser value than any other.


Fo real? The literary value of one piece seemed to be on the same level as fist of the north star to me.
Fist of the North Star is genre defining seminal work that is still influential 20 years after being released. Your definition of literature is probably just outdated.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Um...well, you know that did kinda happen in Episode V! Han did 'die' as in he was removed from the story line as an active character. But, low and behold, they ''just happened'' to run into another smuggler/rogue guy to replace Han. Hummmmm?

Why is meeting new characters in a dungeon, or anywhere, such a big deal?

Lando didn't suddenly appear out of nowhere saying he was a friend of Han's and he wanted to help rescue him. They were specifically in Cloud City, to see him, and he was already established as a friend of Han's.

Happening upon another adventurer in the middle of a dungeon is unlikely and suspicious, and in the "Old School" style games that you claim to run, is just as likely to be a doppelganger as he is a legitimate party member, depending on how much your players are willing to backstab each other.

As for the manga discussion, FotNS is on my "to read" list. Along with FMA, TTGL, InuYasha, whatever I haven't read of Shaman King (probably about half of it), and catching up on One Piece (it's been months since I last read a chapter...).

[Ashtagon]

Literary prejudice detected. I'd advise studying modern literary theory before claiming a media or genre has lesser value than any other.

I did. Graduated too. Any questions?

[ThiagoMartell]

I did. Graduated too. Any questions?
Are you sure you studied modern literary theory and still have genre and media prejudice?
If that's so, I'm just glad UERJ is better than that.

[Ashtagon]

Are you sure you studied modern literary theory and still have genre and media prejudice?
If that's so, I'm just glad UERJ is better than that.

I'm not getting into a bragging contest over whose university was better.

There is at least one very solid reason why shounen manga inherently cannot have the complex depths of storyline found in literature written for adults. Let's see if you can spot it.

[ThiagoMartell]

There is at least one very solid reason why shounen manga inherently cannot have the complex depths of storyline found in literature written for adults. Let's see if you can spot it.
Have you ever heard of Barefoot Gen?
You're getting way too attached to target demographic when Japanese standards are completely different from what you have in the USA. You're also stablishing a false dichotomy - just because a story is meant for children, it does not mean it's bad. Compare 50 Shades of Grey to The Book Thief - one targets adults and the other targets children. Which has a deeper, more complext storyline?
Also, you're stablishing a second false dichotomy when you say you need 'complex depths of storyline' for a good story. Simple does not mean bad.

[Augmental]

There is at least one very solid reason why shounen manga inherently cannot have the complex depths of storyline found in literature written for adults. Let's see if you can spot it.

Because it's a picture-based form of literature? Like a comic book, but Japanese?

[Ashtagon]

Have you ever heard of Barefoot Gen?
You're getting way too attached to target demographic when Japanese standards are completely different from what you have in the USA. You're also stablishing a false dichotomy - just because a story is meant for children, it does not mean it's mean. Compare 50 Shades of Grey to The Book Thief - one targets adults and the other targets children. Which has a deeper, more complext storyline?
Also, you're stablishing a second false dichotomy when you say you need 'complex depths of storyline' for a good story. Simple does not mean bad.

"what you have in the USA"? I've never set foot there.

I never said any children's story is mean.

I don't think anyone has ever suggested that 50 shades is high literature, and while I haven't read it, I am willing to suppose it has a rather simple plot. In comparison, Neuromancer was written with an adult audience in mind, and to no one's great surprise, has a rather complex plot (for its day at least; these days, cyberspace is not a novel concept, mostly because that book invented it as a literary space). I did not say that a book that targets an adult audience will have more detailed stories, simply that it has the potential to do so.

Finally, I never said complex plots are necessary for a story to be "good". It's possible for a story to be complex and for people to groan at it because it's so "bad" (Asimov's Shah Guido G. was intentionally written to fill this position in the literary field). It's possible for a story to be quite simple and be a timeless classic (Aesop's Fables springs to mind).

I said that shonen manga (or indeed, any story intended to have children as the main audience) cannot have a complex plot and still be effective, and so far you have not disabused me of that notion.

I've also noted (with examples) that adult (and "adult") literature, while it can be complex, does not have to be. And complex plots do not have to be "good" ones.

[/pseud's corner]

[ThiagoMartell]

"what you have in the USA"? I've never set foot there.
You said there was a reason shounen manga couldn't be complex. I inferred you meant target audience, and it seems that you really meant that.
As pointed out before, what you consider 'for children' is not what the japanese consider 'for children'. Like I mentioned before, Barefoot Gen.


I never said any children's story is mean.
"Mean"? :smallconfused:


I don't think anyone has ever suggested that 50 shades is high literature, and while I haven't read it, I am willing to suppose it has a rather simple plot.
That's my whole point. You raised a false dichotomy saying adult stories must be more complex than stories for children when you said 'there is a reason shounen can't be complex'.

In comparison, Neuromancer was written with an adult audience in mind, and to no one's great surprise, has a rather complex plot (for its day at least; these days, cyberspace is not a novel concept, mostly because that book invented it as a literary space). I did not say that a book that targets an adult audience will have more detailed stories, simply that it has the potential to do so.
And I'm saying this is a false premise. Astro Boy explores the morality of AI, The Book Thief and Barefoot Gen both explore the horrors of war, Sítio do Mafalda, Menino Maluquinho and Turma da Mônica all heaviliy criticize the social structure of their respective countries. These stories are a lot more complex and a lot deeper than plenty other adult stories.


Finally, I never said complex plots are necessary for a story to be "good". It's possible for a story to be complex and for people to groan at it because it's so "bad" (Asimov's Shah Guido G. was intentionally written to fill this position in the literary field). It's possible for a story to be quite simple and be a timeless classic (Aesop's Fables springs to mind).
You actually did. You said it 'can't be an example of amazing storytelling'. It might not have been what you meant, but it is what you said.


I said that shonen manga (or indeed, any story intended to have children as the main audience) cannot have a complex plot and still be effective, and so far you have not disabused me of that notion.
I mentioned Barefoot Gen and you ignored it. I gave you more examples this time.


I've also noted (with examples) that adult (and "adult") literature, while it can be complex, does not have to be. And complex plots do not have to be "good" ones.
You only did this at the very post I'm quoting now, so I can't see how this is relevant.

[Hiro Protagonest]

"Mean"? :smallconfused:
I assume it's a typo:

You're also stablishing a false dichotomy - just because a story is meant for children, it does not mean it's mean.

[ThiagoMartell]

I assume it's a typo:

Corrected it, thanks.

[Knaight]

Don't bring historic into it...or else we'll have to start talking about fatalities from infections....and I'm sure the OP doesn't want to go there ;)
The historical record is a pretty good place to get an idea of what being hit by swords, spears, arrows and what not actually does to you, given the number of people hit by swords, spears, arrows and what not. What it indicates is that most people are wounded, and people bleeding to death in seconds or being killed instantly is remarkably uncommon. Either it takes longer, but is still direct death from the wound (bleeding out over minutes, hours, whatever), incapacitated people are finished off, or disease kills people.

D&D has fairly good precautions against all of these other than incapacitated people being finished off, in the form of healing magic that outstrips modern medicine by a greater degree than modern medicine outstrips stone age medicine.

[Karoht]

Another solution is the Healing Belt. They're pretty cheap, aren't they already a Swift action to activate? If not, you could just houserule them as such. There is also an optional rule, pay double the cost to make the item slotless, so it doesn't interfere with other items the party picks up. It's a very common solution for parties without healers. Man down? Activate his belt for him. Which could save the day. Or it could be hilarious.

"I'm alive! Wait, why is my belt undone? What kind of Cleric are you anyway?"

[Greyfeld85]

The problem with the proposed "fixes" is that you're basically turning the system into something completely different. If you want a game where you only get knocked out and you can use pheonix downs to rez, go try out the FFD6 system.

There are plenty of systems that are more gamey and less lethal. Instead of trying to change a system to fit your needs, you should probably just learn to play a new system that's already built to do what you're looking for.

[Eurus]

Another solution is the Healing Belt. They're pretty cheap, aren't they already a Swift action to activate? If not, you could just houserule them as such. There is also an optional rule, pay double the cost to make the item slotless, so it doesn't interfere with other items the party picks up. It's a very common solution for parties without healers. Man down? Activate his belt for him. Which could save the day. Or it could be hilarious.

"I'm alive! Wait, why is my belt undone? What kind of Cleric are you anyway?"

The issue with that is that there's a very small window between "bleeding out" and "dead as a doornail", and it's very easy to overshoot that window completely. Plenty of monsters can take you from a few dozen HP to -10 in a single round with absurd strength scores and Power Attack, let alone with a lucky crit.

[ThiagoMartell]

The issue with that is that there's a very small window between "bleeding out" and "dead as a doornail", and it's very easy to overshoot that window completely. Plenty of monsters can take you from a few dozen HP to -10 in a single round with absurd strength scores and Power Attack, let alone with a lucky crit.

It's not a bug, it's a feature.