Class Building Help, Gnome Illusionist WITHOUT shadowcraft mage, ect

[Lansadar]

Hey guys, love the forum, ive been digging deep into all the old posts about the Gnome Illusionist(RoS) and im making one that dosent use the shadowcraft mage or shadowcrafter PrC. Ive got it this far but would really love some input on feat placement and Final PrC.

Gnome Illusionist 1/Wizrad 2/Master specialist 1/Gnome Illusionist 1/Master specialist 4/Gnome Illusionist 1/Master specialist 5/Wizard 5

Or "Understood this dosent work, keep reading......."

1 Gnome Illusionist / Spell Focus: Illusion (PhB)
2 Wizard
3 Wizard / Spell Mastery (PhB)
4 Master specialist / Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (CM)
5 Gnome Illusionist
6 Master specialist / Heighten spell (PhB)
7 Master specialist / Greater Spell Focus (CM)
8 Master specialist
9 Master specialist / Signature Spell (FPhB)
10 Gnome Illusionist
11 Master specialist
12 Master specialist / Arcane Thesis (PhB2)
13 Master specialist
14 Master specialist
15 Master specialist / Earth Sense (RoS)
16 Wizard
17 Wizard
18 Wizard / Earth Spell (RoS)
19 Wizard
20 Wizard Bonus Feat ? ?

So, the idea behind the build thus far is silent image, casting it hightened at any level replacing a prepaired spell. And im looking for as much +CL or add to saves as possible, the longer the mobs believe it the better.

I know i could use the feat Shadow Weave Magic, (FPhB) but im not sure if its really worth the negatives. As for the last 5 levels of wizard, ill drop them for a PrC that works if theres one.

Is taking Earth sense/spell worth it ? and that late ?

Should the order of the feats change to maximize the CL ?


Thanks for the help guys
Lans

[Urpriest]

Why do you have a Gnome Illusionist level at 10? Gnome Illusionist is a set of substitution levels for Wizard, not for Master Specialist.

[Lansadar]

so your saying i cant dip into Gnome Illusionist at level 10 to get the feats? Isent that the idea, you do levels 1,5,10 when they come around ?

[eggs]

You can use Wizard levels 5, 10, 15 like that when they come around, but levels in master specialist don't progress toward that (or toward the Gnome sub levels).

It's the same reason a fighter can't dip Wizard at ECL 17 for level 9 spells.

[2xMachina]

It's 5th lv in wizard, replaced with X features.

It's not something you can go: 1Wiz/3???/1Wiz/4???/1Wiz and get all 3 subs. You actually need 10 lvls in Wizard to get the 10 Wizard substitution lvl

[Lansadar]

Ok, im starting to see what your saying, so ide have to drop the 5th and 10th level of Gnome Illusionist unless i went wizard right up to those points, which i dont plan on doing. So ill have to make some changes to the progression, thanks alot for the clarification, bit of a noob in the playground here.

Besides that, and suggestions for feats and whatnot that im missing ?

thx again guys

[Urpriest]

Actually, looking at the build I realized I have no clue what you're doing. If you're not going Shadowcraft Mage, why is it useful to you to have really high level Silent Images? Why not just use higher level illusions, if you're using them for actually tricking people rather than as a shadow swiss army knife?

[Khatoblepas]

Well, without Shadowcraft Mage, heightened silent image is kind of useless. Like, very useless. You always want the more powerful image spells if you're casting actual illusion spells.

What might be a good synergy is Illusion Mastery (UA), Spontaineous Divination (ComChamp), and Magelord 7 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2). Every illusion spell in your spellbook, spointaineously cast. Every divination spell in your spellbook, spontaineously cast. And you can use your other Spell Mastery choices for your other spells.

[AWiz_Abroad]

. . . so what's the plan when you come against a wise monster that sees through the illusions? BFC? Debuff? Run away screaming?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So, the idea behind the build thus far is silent image, casting it hightened at any level replacing a prepaired spell. And im looking for as much +CL or add to saves as possible, the longer the mobs believe it the better.

I don't think Silent Image does what you think it does. Its duration is Concentration, so a higher caster level will do nothing to help its duration. There is absolutely no reason for a character to do what you're making this one do, apart from the 4th level ability of Shadowcraft Mage, which is the only way to make Silent Image emulate a Shadow Conjuration/Evocation. Your build without Shadowcraft Mage is not capable of doing anything special at all, and is not even capable of doing anything useful beyond what a plain Wizard 20 gets.

Master Specialist isn't worth taking past four levels for an Illusionist who can qualify for Shadowcraft Mage. Its 7th level ability, which grants you concealment for a few rounds after you've cast an illusion, is completely obsolete at Shadowcraft Mage 1 by an ability that never deactivates. The 10th level ability of Master Specialist, being able to cast an illusion Stilled, Silent, and with no material components, but no more than three times per day, is not worth a ten-level investment in the class.

[Lansadar]

Ok, so the idea i had was that silent image would be my go to spell, being able to hignten at will allows me to make it as hard to disbelieve as necessary for the encounter. I would ofcourse use the higher level spells as needed. I wouldnt go call silent image usless, ive read tones of great encounter ideas over the past 2 days. I understand my knowledge of the rules is rusty at best, and a few tweaks are in order. And while i enjoy the constructive criticism im really looking for input on what i can do to make a gnome Illusionist as high a CL as possible using feats and PrC's besides The broken shadowcraft mage, ect.

[Lansadar]

I don't think Silent Image does what you think it does. Its duration is Concentration, so a higher caster level will do nothing to help its duration. There is absolutely no reason for a character to do what you're making this one do, apart from the 4th level ability of Shadowcraft Mage, which is the only way to make Silent Image emulate a Shadow Conjuration/Evocation. Your build without Shadowcraft Mage is not capable of doing anything special at all, and is not even capable of doing anything useful beyond what a plain Wizard 20 gets.

Master Specialist isn't worth taking past four levels for an Illusionist who can qualify for Shadowcraft Mage. Its 7th level ability, which grants you concealment for a few rounds after you've cast an illusion, is completely obsolete at Shadowcraft Mage 1 by an ability that never deactivates. The 10th level ability of Master Specialist, being able to cast an illusion Stilled, Silent, and with no material components, but no more than three times per day, is not worth a ten-level investment in the class.

Extended Illusions was guna help silent images concentration by adding 1d4 rounds after, so i could cast something else, + the rest of the party could attack while the mod has lots line of sight, attacking from behing a fake wall, ect. And like i said at the start, i really dont want to have anything to do with Shadowcraft mage as i believe it to be broken in many ways, i simply want to be a gnome illusionist, with as high a CL as possible, and be able to cast silent image like a mad man as a go to spell for encounters.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Shadowcraft Mage is not in and of itself broken. Illusionists are broken in the sense that they just don't work, Shadowcraft Mage is the fix that makes them viable. It just so happens that if you combine it with multiple other abilities which have extremely strong synergy with it (Signature Spell, Earth Spell, Residual Magic) it can turn out to be an extremely powerful character, but I still would not call it broken. If you feel that a given component of the ideal build is too powerful, then just skip that component, or houserule it to work in a more fair way (i.e. nothing above 100% reality). Skipping the entire basis for such a character to exist in the first place is no way to fix a build that you feel is too powerful.

Increasing the caster level of Silent Image can only help in expanding its area, and nothing more. It's only when it can emulate other spells with caster level dependent effects that increasing its caster level becomes beneficial. In that case, Earth Spell is the go-to for increasing the caster level of a Heightened Silent Image, since it would give you a bonus to your caster level equal to the spell slot used. You're probably better off just skipping the Heighten and spontaneous Silent Image tricks altogether, and spending your bonus (focused) specialist spell slots to prepare the highest level illusions you have access to.

Take the Swift Concentration skill trick in Complete Scoundrel as early as you can qualify for it. That way you can continue concentrating on one spell while casting other spells or taking other actions.

[Keld Denar]

The problem with Silent Image is that it doesn't engage any senses other than sight. The higher level images include sound, smell, and touch. Silent Image is good for making illusions of walls and darkness, for the most part.

Have you looked into Nightmare Spinner from Complete Mage? Loses a CL, but very fun. Shadowcraft Mage isn't that THAT overpowered without Shadow Miracles or jacking your Heighten to the point where you are casting spells higher than a wizard of your level could cast.

[Lansadar]

Ok, after reviewing all the advice ive decided to drop the silent image idea, and go with a stight up gnome illusionist, for 5 levels, taking the sub class at 1st and 5th for the abilities, and go Master specialist till 9 from there....

Taking feats as i go starting with: Spell Focus: Illusion, Earth Sense, Heighten Spell, and Earth Spell. That leaves me with 3 more feats to pick and a PrC after Master specialist.

I did look at the Nightmare Spinner and while it does look like alot of fun, i want to try and stay a full caster with no gaps, and as high a CL as possible.

So, i still need feats and suggestions for PrC, aswell as holes poked in the build if theres a better way to do it.

Also, ide like to stay away from flaws and tricks

Thx again

[Urpriest]

I still don't see what you're doing with Earth Spell et al. There are a variety of Illusion spells of each level, and they improve with level. You really don't need to spend feats bolstering the level at which you can Heighten your Illusions, and while increasing Save DC is nice, it's not nearly as important for an Illusionist as for an Enchanter because a smart Illusionist can make sure that nobody ever has to make saves against their illusions, since you only make a save when you interact with it in some way. I'd take a look at Treantmonk's guide to illusions for spell ideas, and a generic Wizard handbook for feat ideas.

[Lansadar]

So, after checking out...
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871874/Treantmonks_guide_to_Illusion:_Gods_Tools
it seems i have alot of homework to do, thanks for the tip Urpriest.