Optimize a level 10 Cleric/ToB RKV

[digitalguise]

I want 5 levels of Cleric/ToB mixture, and 5 levels of RKV. Give me a breakdown of what to get at each level and what I should buy.

[eggs]

Three questions first:

How do you feel about Divine Metamagic (Persist) + Nightsticks? It's a very powerful combo that gets a lot of mileage from melee clerics, but that also often gets slapped with a ban (or other limits).

Similarly, how seriously do you want to take the Wee Jas association? She's not a bad deity, but her domains aren't strictly ideal, and RKV is pretty clearly meant more as a mechanical/multiclass-focused PrC than as a fluff-based PrC (just look at St. Cuthbert's holy symbol in the class's illustration).

And Base Attack: Fractional or unitary? Fractional calculations mean a Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Ordained Champion 1 has a base attack bonus of 4 (.75*3+.75+1); unitary calculations mean that same build has a base attack bonus of 3 (2 from cleric, 0 from CI, 1 from OC).

No matter what, your best bet is probably riffing off a base of: Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 5

With fractional BA, you might consider swapping the fourth Cleric level out for Church Inquisitor.

DMM: Persist Route:
Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persist and Practiced Spellcaster are going to eat most of your feats. If you aren't tied to Wee Jas, you could pick up the Planning domain to free a feat slot on Extend, and possibly Undeath for Extra Turning. This will start you off with at least one spell's worth of persisting goodness (Persistant Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is always fun, or Ice Axe, or Divine Favor or Divine Power, or Recitation....). Once you buy a good handful of Nightsticks, you can start setting more up. With the extra feats, you can grab some generic melee things like power attack, or possibly Extra Turning to get even more of a metamagic fix.

Non-DMM:Persist Route:
You're probably going to want Law Devotion and Practiced Spellcaster. If not worshipping Wee Jas, Travel Devotion can also be a compelling choice. You aren't going to get as much use out of Nightsticks or extra turning attempts as the DMM: Persist build, so you'll need to invest in other ways of getting buffs up fast. One of the most affordable is a Circlet of Rapid Casting from Magic Item Compendium. Ocular spell can also be useful for getting spells out quickly, but it can be tricky to set up or use effectively. If you take the Inquisition domain (from Church Inquisitor or Wee Jas), the Divine Defiance feat can also be very strong.

In either case, you're going to have a lot of long-term buffs that make very good use of spell slots and free up a few extra nightsticks gp. Greater Resistance and Conviction are big save bonuses; Girallon's Blessing and Heroics both add considerably to offensive melee abilities; Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment . In any case, you'll probably want to throw on a few 24-hour buffs, persisted buffs or extended hours/level buffs the night before you enter any dungeons, confront any big scary evil guys, etc.

[digitalguise]

Three questions first:

How do you feel about Divine Metamagic (Persist) + Nightsticks? It's a very powerful combo that gets a lot of mileage from melee clerics, but that also often gets slapped with a ban.

Similarly, how seriously do you want to take the Wee Jas association? She's not a bad deity, but her domains aren't strictly ideal, and RKV is pretty clearly meant more as a mechanical/multiclass-focused PrC than as a fluff-based PrC (just look at St. Cuthbert's holy symbol in the class's illustration).

And Base Attack: Fractional or unitary? Fractional calculations mean a Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Ordained Champion 1 has a base attack bonus of 4 (.75*3+.75+1); unitary calculations mean that same build has a base attack bonus of 3 (2 from cleric, 0 from CI, 1 from OC).

No matter what, your best bet is probably riffing off a base of: Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 5

With fractional BA, you might consider swapping the fourth Cleric level out for Church Inquisitor.

DMM: Persist Route:
Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persist and Practiced Spellcaster are going to eat most of your feats. If you aren't tied to Wee Jas, you could pick up the Planning domain to free a feat slot on Extend, and possibly Undeath for Extra Turning. This will start you off with at least one spell's worth of persisting goodness (Persistant Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is always fun, or Ice Axe, or Divine Favor or Divine Power, or Recitation....). Once you buy a good handful of Nightsticks, you can start setting more up. With the extra feats, you can grab some generic melee things like power attack, or possibly Extra Turning to get even more of a metamagic fix.

Non-DMM:Persist Route:
You're probably going to want Law Devotion and Practiced Spellcaster. If not worshipping Wee Jas, Travel Devotion can also be a compelling choice. You aren't going to get as much use out of Nightsticks or extra turning attempts as the DMM: Persist build, so you'll need to invest in other ways of getting buffs up fast. One of the most affordable is a Circlet of Rapid Casting from Magic Item Compendium. Ocular spell can also be useful for getting spells out quickly, but it can be tricky to set up or use effectively. If you take the Inquisition domain (from Church Inquisitor or Wee Jas), the Divine Defiance feat can also be very strong.

In either case, you're going to have a lot of long-term buffs that make very good use of spell slots and free up a few extra nightsticks gp. Greater Resistance and Conviction are big save bonuses; Girallon's Blessing and Heroics both add considerably to offensive melee abilities; Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment . In any case, you'll probably want to throw on a few 24-hour buffs, persisted buffs or extended hours/level buffs the night before you enter any dungeons, confront any big scary evil guys, etc.

Nothing will be banned, DMM is a go, not sure about the BA, I'll assume it is unitary, and Wee Jas isn't necessary, DM will allow some deity change, I believe he mentioned using the Dragonlance pantheon...

[Eldariel]

Cleric 4/Crusader 1 is the leveling order you want. You may want to consider Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric); 1 less BAB but significantly more skills.

Crusader level should be taken on character level 5 so you can pick level 2 maneuvers out of it. Then just RKV all the way. It's fairly simple. Work from there. Feats...eh, I'm sure there'll be plenty of good suggestions by tomorrow. If not, I'll take a look and be more comprehensive.

[digitalguise]

Cleric 4/Crusader 1 is the leveling order you want. You may want to consider Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric); 1 less BAB but significantly more skills.

Crusader level should be taken on character level 5 so you can pick level 2 maneuvers out of it. Then just RKV all the way. It's fairly simple. Work from there. Feats...eh, I'm sure there'll be plenty of good suggestions by tomorrow. If not, I'll take a look and be more comprehensive.

Ahem...

Just kidding, so I'll go Cleric 4, Crusader 1, RKV 5, with that build, what should I get for feats/items/spells/domains??

[Wings of Peace]

If you want to go all in you should play a small sized race and take Heretic of the Faith: Luck, Imbued Healing: Luck, and Improved Unarmed Strike. Warforged Scout and Strongheart Halfling are both strong candidates for the racial choice imo.

The advantage of this setup is that you get all the normal perks of the Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 5 build that's been suggested but if everything falls apart you have the option to cast a healing spell and activate your Aura of Chaos to instantly become a 1d2 Unarmed Strike Crusader.

[digitalguise]

If you want to go all in you should play a small sized race and take Heretic of the Faith: Luck, Imbued Healing: Luck, and Improved Unarmed Strike. Warforged Scout and Strongheart Halfling are both strong candidates for the racial choice imo.

The advantage of this setup is that you get all the normal perks of the Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 5 build that's been suggested but if everything falls apart you have the option to cast a healing spell and activate your Aura of Chaos to instantly become a 1d2 Unarmed Strike Crusader.

I'm going with an enforcer bruiser type build. So no smallz.

[eggs]

Plus, infinite loops are basically the hallmark of practical op. :smalltongue:

I've pretty much given my input, but you might want to check out the Cleric Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238.0) if you're filling space. It's not specifically oriented toward RKVs, but most of it applies.

And if you go the DMM:Persist route, this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7543) might direct you at some ways to use it (it's not specifically Cleric spells, but they're included and labeled.)

[digitalguise]

Okay so I'm going to go with Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 5, what should I pick for feats/items/skills at each level? I'd like to go with DMM:Persist and get a bunch of turn/rebukes for divine impetus. What would you pick at each level?

[docnessuno]

EWP: Spiked chain
Extend spell
Persistent spell
DMM: persist

Future feats (or other feats with flaws/human): Combat reflexes, Standstill, Praticed spellcaster

Skills: Max concentration, put the required ranks to qualify for the PRC, place others to suit your tastes. If you go with cloistered cleric trade knowledge domain for knowledge devotion and get some appropriate skills to boost it.

[digitalguise]

How about domains/manuevers? It would be helpful if someone could give me a breakdown of what to get at each level.

Level 1- feat-x manuevers-xyz spell xyz

I understand if that takes too long but it would be greatly appreciated!

[eggs]

I keep expecting to see someone else to have jump into this thread.

Here's what I'd probably call the basic early-maturing RKV that you could riff off however you want:
Human Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Crusader 1/RKV 10
Domains: Planning, Undeath, Knowledge (bonus - Cloistered), Inquisition (bonus - Church Inquisitor)
Feats: Persist Spell (level 1), Divine Metamagic: Persist (bonus - Human), Extend Spell (bonus - Planning), Extra Turning (bonus - Undeath), Extra Turning (level 3), Practiced Spellcaster (level 6), Extra Turning (level 9), Quicken Spell (level 12), Divine Metamagic: Quicken (level 15)
Stances: Iron Guard's Glare (level 5), Child of Shadow (level 6), Thicket of Blades (level 11)
Maneuvers: Battle Leader's Charge, Douse the Flames, Mountain Hammer, Tactical Strike, Vanguard Strike (level 5), White Raven Tactics (level 7), Covering Strike (level 9), Shadow Stride (level 11), Order Forged from Chaos (level 13), Shadow Blink (level 15)

Gear at level 10:
Let's say: Relinquary Holy Symbol (1k CChamp), Ankh of Ascension (9k MIC), Nightsticks x2 (7.5k/ea, LM), a +2 Wis enhancement on the Ankh (4k MIC) and a +2 weapon of some sort (let's say a +1 Spell-Storing Glaive, but a Discipline enhancement wouldn't hurt either). That leaves just under 12k to play with for armor, storage and miscellaneous tricks like Third Eye: Clarity, Anklets of Translocation or maneuver items (I especially like Shadow Hands and Iron Heart Vests are useful for Shadow Jaunt and Wall of Blades).

For long-duration buffs, Greater Resistance, Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment should always be active, and an item with Deeper Darkness on it should always be available. Keep Magic Circles Against Alignment, Girallon's Blessings, Freedom of Movements, Convictions and Air Walks on hand and cast them when you think they'd be useful in the subsequent couple hours. And for persistent spells, with at least 14 Cha, that would open Divine Power, Divine Favor, Mass Lesser Vigor and Elation.

And remember that the Substitute Domain spell can swap Knowledge or Inquisition out for something more useful like Mysticism or Travel if they aren't working for you.

You can shift most of that around - for instance, swapping in Ice Axe for Elation and the +2 weapon, subbing Divine Defiance in for one of the Extra Turnings and dropping Elation as a persisted spell or dropping the Undeath domain for something with more persistable spells like Mysticism, subbing Knowledge or Inquisition domains out for Knowledge devotion for more damage potential (especially if you maintain the Divine Insight buff) or swapping some of the other interesting persist spells in like Balor Nimbus or Cloud of Knives.

[docnessuno]

I keep expecting to see someone else to have jump into this thread.

Here's what I'd probably call the basic early-maturing RKV that you could riff off however you want:
Human Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Crusader 1/RKV 10
Domains: Planning, Undeath, Knowledge (bonus - Cloistered), Inquisition (bonus - Church Inquisitor)
Feats: Persist Spell (level 1), Divine Metamagic: Persist (bonus - Human), Extend Spell (bonus - Planning), Extra Turning (bonus - Undeath), Extra Turning (level 3), Practiced Spellcaster (level 6), Extra Turning (level 9), Quicken Spell (level 12), Divine Metamagic: Quicken (level 15)
Stances: Iron Guard's Glare (level 5), Child of Shadow (level 6), Thicket of Blades (level 11)
Maneuvers: Battle Leader's Charge, Douse the Flames, Mountain Hammer, Tactical Strike, Vanguard Strike (level 5), White Raven Tactics (level 7), Covering Strike (level 9), Shadow Stride (level 11), Order Forged from Chaos (level 13), Shadow Blink (level 15)

Gear at level 10:
Let's say: Relinquary Holy Symbol (1k CChamp), Ankh of Ascension (9k MIC), Nightsticks x2 (7.5k/ea, LM), a +2 Wis enhancement on the Ankh (4k MIC) and a +2 weapon of some sort (let's say a +1 Spell-Storing Glaive, but a Discipline enhancement wouldn't hurt either). That leaves just under 12k to play with for armor, storage and miscellaneous tricks like Third Eye: Clarity, Anklets of Translocation or maneuver items (I especially like Shadow Hands and Iron Heart Vests are useful for Shadow Jaunt and Wall of Blades).

For long-duration buffs, Greater Resistance, Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment should always be active, and an item with Deeper Darkness on it should always be available. Keep Magic Circles Against Alignment, Girallon's Blessings, Freedom of Movements, Convictions and Air Walks on hand and cast them when you think they'd be useful in the subsequent couple hours. And for persistent spells, with at least 14 Cha, that would open Divine Power, Divine Favor, Mass Lesser Vigor and Elation.

And remember that the Substitute Domain spell can swap Knowledge or Inquisition out for something more useful like Mysticism or Travel if they aren't working for you.

You can shift most of that around - for instance, swapping in Ice Axe for Elation and the +2 weapon, subbing Divine Defiance in for one of the Extra Turnings and dropping Elation as a persisted spell or dropping the Undeath domain for something with more persistable spells like Mysticism, subbing Knowledge or Inquisition domains out for Knowledge devotion for more damage potential (especially if you maintain the Divine Insight buff) or swapping some of the other interesting persist spells in like Balor Nimbus or Cloud of Knives.

A few notes:
- AFAIK Wee jas doesn't grant the planning domain.
- I prefer the EWP / Standstill / Combat Reflexes route to the "Extra Turning" one. Expecially on a character able to persist righteous might and wield a reach weapon. tiket of blades is insane with long reach
- Stacking nightsticks should be checked with the DM first, unless you just purchased a bookproof helmet.
- Going [Casting class / prcs] 4 / Crusader 1 / RKV 3 / Crusader 1 / RKV 4+ is also a decent option, allowing to pick up Thicket of Blades earlier at the cost of one spellcasting level.

[Wings of Peace]

A few notes:
- AFAIK Wee jas doesn't grant the planning domain.


If he doesn't mind spending a feat on it he can take Heretic of the Faith to change out his domain for a different one.

[docnessuno]

If he doesn't mind spending a feat on it he can take Heretic of the Faith to change out his domain for a different one.

The whole point of the planning domain is to save a feat (extend spell), using a feat to get the domain itself kinda defies it.

[eggs]

On Planning and Nightsticks:

Nothing will be banned, DMM is a go, not sure about the BA, I'll assume it is unitary, and Wee Jas isn't necessary, DM will allow some deity change, I believe he mentioned using the Dragonlance pantheon...

The AoO route's not a bad one, especially at this point in the build, but having lots of turning is going to have a big payoff at level 11 (when things like Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Righteous Might and Dragon Breath come online for Persisting). That payoff is also why I'd hesitate for the extra Crusader level - at most, I'd think early Thicket access would be worth a feat; that way it could be retrained away at level 11, when the RKV picks up its extra stance and starts sucking up all sorts of turn attempts.

[hex0]

Have you considered taking some Prestige Paladin in there?

[digitalguise]

Yeah, so im restricted to two nightsticks. Giving me 13 turn attempts, I have a 14 charisma. What else could I get to utilize the swift actions I'll get with Divine Impetus. Manuevers/Feats/Spells. Anyone have a good list of spells that are good to persist with my build?