Charge and martial maneuvers

[ZatriX]

Hi all,

Didn't find an answer in the forums, can someone help me out here?

My player, a Warblade, wants to make a charge and then apply Mountain Hammer maneuver to the melee attack.

I argue, that it is not possible, since the initiation for the maneuver is a standard action, which must be a melee attack, whereas a charge is full-round one.

Is my point valid, or can he actually do it?

[Krazzman]

Your Point is valid.

[Lorin]

He is still not convinced. He insists, what phrase: "Attacking on a Charge
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn." allows him to use maneuver, because he makes a "single mellee attack" as part of the maneuver, personally, i think that this is a twisted logic. Any objections?

[Eldest]

I'm assuming this is an internet game, and either Lorin or ZatriX is DMing it. The other is a player. Correct?
My opinion is no. You make a melee attack at the end of a charge, you do not gain a standard action to use to initiate a maneuver. However, that is only my opinion.

[Eldariel]

Mountain Hammer says it requires a standard action. This is different from a melee attack. Charge is a full-round action that doesn't give you any extra standard actions; it just allows you to attack once at the end of the movement (you can also attack once as a standard action, but that does not mean you can take a standard action at the end of the movement). As such, by rules as written, these two things can't be combined.

If you need further persuasion, look at the e.g. White Raven school's maneuvers such as "Battle Leader's Charge". There are maneuvers that specifically are charges; if a maneuver is intended to be used with charges, the charge is a part of the maneuver. Unless a maneuver involves a charge, you can't use a maneuver in charge.

[Keld Denar]

Think of it like this: If you have a BAB of 6 or higher, could you initiate 2 maneuvers in a full attack, one on each iterative? No. Why? Because an attack is not a standard action. It is a unit slightly smaller than a standard action. The attack at the end of a charge is the same thing.

With a charge, you are spending a full round action, and you get a bonus attack out of it. With a maneuver, you are spending a standard action and getting a bonus attack out of it. You can't spend a standard action and a full round action in the same round without some action shenanigans.

[Douglas]

I think of it like an input/output thing.

Charge: Take one full round action as input, produce movement and one melee attack with modifiers as output.
Mountain Hammer: Take one standard action as input, produce one melee attack with bonuses as output.

If you don't have the input you can't get the output, and you can't spend the same input resource multiple times.

Now if he finds something that takes a melee attack as its input, such as a disarm or trip attack, that would be a viable option for a charge - the charge itself gives him a melee attack in its output, and he can feed that right back into the input of anything that calls for one. Two things happening to produce the same thing in their output does not mean anything, however, and especially does not allow combining them.