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Critter
2012-08-24, 07:35 AM
Hi! Long time reader/lurker, first time poster :smallbiggrin:

The last few sessions of my pen and paper group (core 3.5) have been rather rough. It's a biweekly group, and the problems started a couple months ago (about 3-4 sessions).

Backstory:
We were investigating a potential crazed, murderous cult of a mad God (homebrew setting and pantheon), which seems fairly normal for a group of adventurers to do. The party was all 4th level (group of 6) consisting of two Wizards, a Cleric, a Ranger/Sorc, a Paladin, and myself, a Halfling Rogue going Assassin at 6th level (DM ruled Assassins can be Neutral) and in fact, I was the only Neutral person in the party. Also, I was one of three Lawful characters in the group.

So, we investigate this slaughterhouse and get ambushed by a number of Ogres with Barbarian levels. We lost a character in that fight (the Rang/Sorc). We decide to leave before fully investigating as that used up every resource we had as a party. On the way out, we get ambushed again resulting in a second character death (one of the Wizards). Also, the Paladin and Cleric were captured and hinted that they'd likely be sacrificed.

During the 2nd ambush, the surviving Wizard popped Invis, and I stayed hidden (as several fogs had been dropped) and once I realized how screwed we were, I bailed. So did the Invis'd Wizard. I ran straight to the temple the Cleric and Paladin were staying at and enlisted help. We almost lost the second Wizard that fight, as he got thrown into a vat of Green Slime and kept failing his Climb checks out of the vat (it was 10ft deep, 8ft of which was Slime). He left the fight with about 2 Con left.

We save the day, but the Cleric and Paladin's stuff had been taken so we had to equip them again. The two players who lost character brought in a Fighter and a Fighter/Rogue. We ended up taking about a week game time to formulate a plan. Apparently the two leaders of this cult escaped. I was Gathering Information to find anything I could, while the party was trying to use any Divination spells they could to find a lead. All came up empty.

Anyway, the only lead we had was a stretch, and one I was convinced was a Red Herring. So, we go there. It was an island about 5 miles out with a small settlement of about 80 people. Also, the survivors leveled up to 5, so we were a party of four 5th levels, and two 4th levels.

Long story short, the two players that lost characters go into instant douche bag mode, almost making me, as a player, ask them to leave the party and create functional characters. Unfortunately, we didn't have time as the Fight/Rogue got caught sneaking around somewhere and made it a point to be a bitch to the DM and the NPCs, and the second player ended up smacking the Constable with a Halberd (aiming to do subdual damage) to free her. Of course, a fight breaks out and everyone is arrested. Except me. I saw the train wreck ahead of time and hid in the trees.

Now, I'm on a strange island, 5 miles from my party as they got taken to the mainland to meet the judge. The only lead we had was an orphanage in an abandoned keep on the island. So, naturally, as the one player with an ability to advance the plot (and annoyed, as I watched the party brawl with legitimate authority as far as I knew) I decide that, since I couldn't get off the island safely, I'd investigate.

I get in alright, get the layout, and try to leave. On the way out, the DM pulls me aside and informs me I get hit for 32 points of damage. I have the option of leaping out of a 4 story window with 2 hit points left, or potion (I did) and try to see who my attacker was. Well, I got Held and captured.

Anyway, the final session was the rest of the party getting back to the island and noticing I'm not around. The Wizard used a message spell before they left (and before I was captured), so we had communicated some so they knew I was around.

Long story short, they get in the orphanage and get in a fight with this mean Cleric that inflicted me for 32 points of damage. The Wizard almost died to a Slay Living (rolled a 20 on his save and barely made it, according to the DM) and the Cleric died in one hit to the Death domain special ability. The party (again, three 5th levels, two 4th levels at this point) kill the Cleric, but got ambushed by the six helpers immediately after and not given a chance to potion or anything as it was literally the same round the Cleric died. The Paladin died to a Smite Good as one of the helpers were a Paladin of Slaughter or something.

-----

Me being grumpy:
So, party wipe. New campaign, new characters. I was extremely pissed about being captured. The DM straight up told me I was stupid because "you don't split the party" and that I was stupid for going in the keep alone. I informed him that it wasn't my fault any of the stupidity happened (he was actually genuinely mad and frustrated at the two problem players). He told me to bring a 2nd character and have him ready for that final session.

I refused. I told him I would absolutely refuse to lose a character I immensely enjoyed playing due to party stupidity and it wasn't fair to punish me for that as well. My character was interesting, fun, and with the inclusion of Dragon Marks from Eberron (I took Shadow), gave a lot of flavor as the DM and I did a lot of make me a part of this House (which would lead to me becoming eligible for an Assassin at 6th).

After that session, a couple of players and I approached the DM about just resetting the whole ordeal. Or, at least, us playing those characters again. The DM said no. Thankfully, in the meantime one of the problem players has stepped out of the group and a new guy is coming in. That player has been a constant irritation for a number of people, so at most, the stupid awful party wipe was a blessing in disguise, I guess.

So, a couple of days after the party wipe, the first emails go out about the new party. As it stands, the new party for tomorrow's game is: Barbarian, Barbarian, Bard, Rogue, Ranger/Rogue(maybe Ranger/Fighter, I forget). I was the last to respond, so I feel I should probably take a Divine class. So, I call the DM to discuss with him and he goes on an extremely long, serious, somewhat passive aggressive lecture about how I should play what I want and not feel obligated to do anything.

I don't see how creating, or desiring to create, a fairly balanced party is a bad thing and I bit my lip and didn't get snarky about needing some optimization if the DM is throwing ****ty encounters constantly at us.
-----

So, game time is tomorrow at 3:30pm. All I know is I'm creating a Cleric. I've got zero motivation to create an interesting character. I've always played Wizards and Rogues, so this is new for me, being a Divine caster of any sort. Been doing bits of reading to "get in the mood" and figure a generic battle Cleric (again, Core stuff only) should be easy enough, and useful. But, I still can't get past that basic conception phase. No real inspiration, or drive, and I really am struggling to create even a basic character without first having some sort of character concept I'd like to aim for.

Granted, every D&D player has lost characters. That comes with the territory. For some reason, losing this character to party stupidity and a jerk DM pretty much stunned me.

I don't care. I'm finding that to be a problem. I'm not the only one either. The players who also lost characters they liked are basically in the same boat. I really don't see the next few sessions being all that fun. I'm also concerned that bringing a new guy in under these circumstances may send really, really bad signs.

So yeah, any tips or advice here? In case anyone cares, I'm about to turn 28 and I am, by far, the youngest person at the gaming table. This isn't a young, inexperienced gaming group by any means.

Kol Korran
2012-08-24, 08:42 AM
First of all, if you wish to rant, please say so in the beginning of the post, or put that under a spoiler. Not all want to read, and most of it could have been summerized much more briefly with the same message. I'm not trying to criticize you, but i've seen from my own experience that when readers are faced with walls of text, most just skip the thread entirely. And it's also polite to consider other people's time, right?

About your situation, some thoughts:
1- First, as a group, I think you guys need to talk to settle 3 issues.

The first is talk to the DM- Why did he throw those supposedly unfair challenges at you? (The cleric with the slay living sounds exagerrated) What did he intend to accomplish? Make the game more dangerous? Have you play more inteligently, more cautiosuly or perhaps just highlight the dangerous nature of some particular enemies?

Which leads us to: What kind of game are you playing? Casual and safe? Dangerous but with freedom of choice? (The DM seemed to allow you to do what you wish, but with that must come consequences) or what? This must be agreed upon (more than less) by the entire group.

Lastly- TPKs happen. Sometimes more fairly, sometime less. hopefully it is fun, but not always. Again- this stems from what kind of game you want to play. However- it is greatly YOUR role as players to find a new enthusiasm to play. It doesn't just come from outside, you must yourself light the flame. Actively seek something to be excited about. I highly suggest building characters together with other players, partly sharing background or a relationship. it can greatly enrich the game. You as players need to go out and find what excites you a new, not look for it to come from the DM (Though help from him is good)

2- I can't help you think of a character concept to the campaign without knowing anything about it or the other characters. However- I'd consider this character a challenge, a new horizon to explore, mechanically, roleplay like, and potential goals and way of play. When I play (not often, I usually DM) I purposefully pick characters that might be difficult for me, problematic in some way or another and try to make these work. They tun out the most interesting characters.

3- However, if the DM will relent and retcon the deal that might work well. I think he is worried about this becoming a habit- "Oh I died? damn! can we just retcon it?". There can't be risk without consequences. If he'll do this, I think you must accept this is your last "retry", sort to speak.

Good luck to you, and have a great game. Non of these problems sound insurmountable. You'll find your way

Rallicus
2012-08-24, 08:50 AM
The DM straight up told me I was stupid because "you don't split the party" and that I was stupid for going in the keep alone.


Wow. I'll refrain from any terms to describe what I think of your DM, but let's just say they're not nice.

What a horrible argument. That phrase is thrown around to explain how splitting the party makes the game less involving for everyone, or how it makes it much more difficult for a DM to keep track of what's going on. It's not a viable excuse for killing your character.



He told me to bring a 2nd character and have him ready for that final session.

I refused.

Eh, I don't know about this. When a DM kills your character through legit mechanics, there's really nothing you can do. You're a player in the story, but the DM and the dice ultimately decides your fate. Whining about your character (which you praise a little too highly, imo) is kind of childish, and it's really not that far-fetched that your character would die from doing something foolhardy.

You liked your character? Cool, use it in another campaign that you'll inevitably join.


I don't see how creating, or desiring to create, a fairly balanced party is a bad thing and I bit my lip and didn't get snarky about needing some optimization if the DM is throwing ****ty encounters constantly at us.

He was informing you to play what you want. Why not just respond with, "I want to play a divine caster," instead of bottling up unwarranted anger?


But, I still can't get past that basic conception phase. No real inspiration, or drive, and I really am struggling to create even a basic character without first having some sort of character concept I'd like to aim for.

Clerics are Tier 1 classes with awesome potential. I'm sure you can think of something, and I'm fairly certain the people here will give you some awesome suggestions.


So yeah, any tips or advice here? In case anyone cares, I'm about to turn 28 and I am, by far, the youngest person at the gaming table. This isn't a young, inexperienced gaming group by any means.

Ahh... that probably explains it. Your DM possibly has the "old school" gaming mentality.

In any case, I don't really have advice, other than "if you're not having fun, quit." It seems like a bad situation all around.

Critter
2012-08-24, 09:24 AM
First of all, if you wish to rant, please say so in the beginning of the post, or put that under a spoiler. Not all want to read, and most of it could have been summerized much more briefly with the same message. I'm not trying to criticize you, but i've seen from my own experience that when readers are faced with walls of text, most just skip the thread entirely. And it's also polite to consider other people's time, right?

Understandable. Was still getting my morning coffee in me :) I'll pop an edit in here shortly.


The first is talk to the DM- Why did he throw those supposedly unfair challenges at you? (The cleric with the slay living sounds exagerrated) What did he intend to accomplish? Make the game more dangerous? Have you play more inteligently, more cautiosuly or perhaps just highlight the dangerous nature of some particular enemies?

According to the DM (who was half running a module) we basically went from chapter 1, to the end of the book. More or less we ended up in a situation that he apparently couldn't, or didn't know how to handle. That shocked me, considering he DMs quite a bit at Cons and is fairly seasoned.

The group was beyond frustrated. Gather Information, Detects, hell, even Locate Objects were used for an in-game week. Nothing came up.

"We'd like to talk to the mayor."
"He's busy, go away."

So we took the one path we saw, and apparently it was the bad one. Honestly, the entire group was unsure of what to do or where to go and it was really frustrating.


Which leads us to: What kind of game are you playing? Casual and safe? Dangerous but with freedom of choice? (The DM seemed to allow you to do what you wish, but with that must come consequences) or what? This must be agreed upon (more than less) by the entire group.

To be honest, I have no idea. I've been in this group for a year now, and after these issues popped up I sent out an email saying perhaps we should all have a discussion about this, or about expectations, or play style issues and concerns as there's been a number of frustrations relating to some personal issues as well. It fell on deaf ears, more or less.


Lastly- TPKs happen. Sometimes more fairly, sometime less. hopefully it is fun, but not always. Again- this stems from what kind of game you want to play. However- it is greatly YOUR role as players to find a new enthusiasm to play. It doesn't just come from outside, you must yourself light the flame. Actively seek something to be excited about. I highly suggest building characters together with other players, partly sharing background or a relationship. it can greatly enrich the game. You as players need to go out and find what excites you a new, not look for it to come from the DM (Though help from him is good)

2- I can't help you think of a character concept to the campaign without knowing anything about it or the other characters. However- I'd consider this character a challenge, a new horizon to explore, mechanically, roleplay like, and potential goals and way of play. When I play (not often, I usually DM) I purposefully pick characters that might be difficult for me, problematic in some way or another and try to make these work. They tun out the most interesting characters.

I'll lump these two together.

Again, I've never looked at a divine caster much. I figured this would be as good a time as any to hop right in. Not only does the party need it, but I figure after the latest sessions perhaps trying something new will spark that interest for me.

So far, nothing :smallannoyed:

I know TPks do happen. Again, it's part of the game. What I didn't like is how my situation was affected by the DM basically being grumpy. He was mad at the rest of the group for basically running around punching cops. Again, I'm not the only Lawful guy in the party. That ordeal took up almost an entire session. Since I stayed out of it, I spent almost an entire 8 hour session doing nothing, watching the party kickstart a train wreck. Could I have helped? Probably. I opted to stay low though.


3- However, if the DM will relent and retcon the deal that might work well. I think he is worried about this becoming a habit- "Oh I died? damn! can we just retcon it?". There can't be risk without consequences. If he'll do this, I think you must accept this is your last "retry", sort to speak.

Good luck to you, and have a great game. Non of these problems sound insurmountable. You'll find your way

The idea was to retcon the entire situation. The original pitch was to restart the campaign right after the Cleric and Paladin were rescued. That would let the DM still explore the "intended" story line and give him time to rethink the last chapter. He said no, and, I quote "because doing that would make me look like a ****".


What a horrible argument. That phrase is thrown around to explain how splitting the party makes the game less involving for everyone, or how it makes it much more difficult for a DM to keep track of what's going on. It's not a viable excuse for killing your character.

That's why I got mad about my character situation. I didn't cause the party split. I was trying to advance the plot during the unnecessary side ordeal the party stuck themselves in. I felt unnecessarily punished for everyone else's actions.


Eh, I don't know about this. When a DM kills your character through legit mechanics, there's really nothing you can do. You're a player in the story, but the DM and the dice ultimately decides your fate. Whining about your character (which you praise a little too highly, imo) is kind of childish, and it's really not that far-fetched that your character would die from doing something foolhardy.

Legit mechanics I agree with. Being shoe horned into a crap situation I don't agree with. As a level 5 character, I had a total of +18 to Hide, and +16 to Move Silently. The check that "caught me" was when I threw a grappling hook up onto a balcony. That's right, a sleeping character heard a grappling hook inside a stone keep. The whole situation wasn't really "legit" as presented.

I asked the DM for some sort of options on my part. Yes, I was captured, but I was a ranking member in this House, and the DM also had us roll up a comeliness and social standing rolls. I got a natural 100 on the % dice for social standing "You're like, King of the Halflings!". I figured that, being as I'm not just a standard run of the mill adventurer, that perhaps we could come up with something to give my character and me as a player some sort of options for getting out there, or leading the party elsewhere (since apparently we were in the wrong adventure seed to begin with). I got nothing from him, at all, except "Have a 2nd character ready."

Finally, the morning before the final session he wants to meet for food. He gives me my "options" and the first was to accept death, the second was to go through some random portal I may or may not die in. Also, he finally told me of my surroundings (even though I asked over a week ago) and I was more or less imprisoned inside a giant sarcophagus. "Bad guys aren't dumb, you know?"

Gee, thanks.


He was informing you to play what you want. Why not just respond with, "I want to play a divine caster," instead of bottling up unwarranted anger?

The entire conversation was more or less a trading off of bottled up anger. This group has been together for years, basically, I'm still the new guy. Or was, rather, until tomorrow.

There have been lots of issues. Before the downward spiral of this campaign, there was almost a group split because people got irritated with the two douche bag players mentioned in the first post.

I'm not joking when I say "Please stop punishing me." has had to be a constant statement in some of these dealings.


Clerics are Tier 1 classes with awesome potential. I'm sure you can think of something, and I'm fairly certain the people here will give you some awesome suggestions.

Yup, that's why I figure I'd post something. I've been lurking for awhile and picked up a number of interesting things on these boards and I'm curious as to what people might recommend.

Again, it's pretty much core only though.


Ahh... that probably explains it. Your DM possibly has the "old school" gaming mentality.

In any case, I don't really have advice, other than "if you're not having fun, quit." It seems like a bad situation all around.

We have a rotating DM schedule. My turn was supposed to come up soon, but with the group issues, I opted out for now. Again, these issues precede the campaign melt down first mentioned.

I don't like the idea of just quitting. Like I said, I've tried to bring up the issues of actually everyone sitting down and discussing frustrations, to no avail. Whenever I do quit, it won't be for lack of me trying.

Jay R
2012-08-24, 10:30 AM
You don't know everything yet. My recommendation is to have a second character ready and go into the next game with an open mind.

Everything you've described the DM saying since your character was captured is close to what I would say if I were planning to have the second party rescue your halfling.

Give the DM the benefit of the doubt and play. FIND OUT what he thinks should happen next in the game.

Critter
2012-08-24, 12:20 PM
You don't know everything yet. My recommendation is to have a second character ready and go into the next game with an open mind.

Everything you've described the DM saying since your character was captured is close to what I would say if I were planning to have the second party rescue your halfling.

Give the DM the benefit of the doubt and play. FIND OUT what he thinks should happen next in the game.

Oh, the first party is completely wiped out. This second game is a new story, new characters, and taking place in a different part of the world.