Good Anti-Mage Warblade build tips?

[JKTrickster]

Hi! I"m playing a low magic campaign that pits the PCs against these "Orge Magi" - supernatural beings that are the only ones that can wield arcane power. Everyone else in the world is limited to Tier 3 or below - and even the arcane classes that are Tier 3 and below are off limits as well.

Classes with supernatural abilities (such as Dragonfire Adept, Incarnum Users, etc.) are still allowed. The DM specifically wanted to remove magic from the equation.

Even the Ogre Magi are probably not able to cast spells traditionally because Magic requires at least a score of 20 + Spell Level, as well as multiple other hoops to jump through. This makes the difference much less pronounced.

However when we fight these Ogre Magi, it will be 1 v 1 duel. I decided to build a Warblade for this campaign. Obviously Iron Heart and Diamond Mind will provide some good defenses. But I will probably need more. Does anyone have any good suggestions?


TL,DR: How can I optimize a Warblade to handle a (slightly nerfed) Magic User one on one? Are there any homebrew disciplines that you know of that can help me with dueling 1 on 1 or against magic users?

[Snowbluff]

Do some work lining up status effects.

Poisons.

Nauseated (Three Mountains Feat, CW)

Stagger (Needs sneak attack, Staggering Strike + Sapphire Nightmare Blade)

I like putting Cursespewing, Enervating, and Wounding on my weapons.

It's an absolutely vicious way to play, but it messes up casters pretty bad if you can melee them.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Grabbing a reach weapon and going mage slayer line should work well, perhaps dipping crusader to get the maneuver that prevents people to tumble or 5 ft. step through your threatened area. (gah I forgot the name). A Dip into Sneak attack fighter gets you access to Staggering strike and craven (wihout casters not being able to get Mindblank shouldn't be as dangerous).

So something like Warblade 2/ Sneak attack fighter 1/crusader 1/ warblade + (not necesarilly in that order) works well I think.

[JKTrickster]

Do you know any way of consistent debuffs without weapon enchantments? As far as I know, magic weapons are off limits in this game - it's all about our own raw personal power (in the form of a free Vow of Poverty without the standard limitations as well as our own martial maneuvers).

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC, many [Ambush] feats, from the top of my head Disembowling strike (1d4 con 1 per enemy per encounter), terrifying strike (shaken or perhaps panicked) maiming strike (trade SA dice for cha damage), staggering strike and there was one which sickened.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC, many [Ambush] feats, from the top of my head Disembowling strike (1d4 con 1 per enemy per encounter), terrifying strike (shaken or perhaps panicked) maiming strike (trade SA dice for cha damage), staggering strike and there was one which sickened.

[JKTrickster]

The problem with sneak attack is that I cannot promise to be able to use it - I don't know whether sneak attack will even affect the Ogre Magi. Even if it does, the battle is only 1 on 1 - that nullifies the most common tactic to use sneak attack (flanking) and I don't know how I can consistently make them flat footed.

[eggs]

I'd consider Whisper Gnome with the Extra Silence and Darkstalker feats. Cast Silence on yourself a few times a day for long-duration autofail on most spells cast nearby, and milk the benefits of crazy Hide/Move Silently modifiers (which tend to be tricky for casters without Spot or Listen to counter reliably). Plus, if the Ogre Magi have any relation to the default ogres or ogre magi, you'd get a hefty AC boost against them.

[JKTrickster]

Sorry but only humans are allowed :smallsigh:

Also I was looking at some homebrew disciplines. The disciplines Open Tome and Untamed Essence both look rather cool. Should I use those instead Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon?

[Talionis]

Find ways to boost your initiative. Against mages, it is really important to go first.

[Roguenewb]

Whisper Gnome Silence is a solid option for mage-sassintion.

Are you allowed to Swordsage? Swordsage might be better for mage killing. Wisdom boosts a good save, and your Touch is higher. In addition, Shadow Hand will let you equal up to their mobility advantage, and apply some debuffs. Plus, setting sun can chuck 'em back at your meat chunk.

[JKTrickster]

Aside from improved initiative, is there any other method that I have access to?

Also as a stylistic thing, does anyone know any good homebrew content that improves one handed style of sword fighting?

EDIT: I thought Warblade would be a better choice because of Iron Heart's Iron Heart Surge and Diamond Mind's counters.

The fights against the mages will predominantly be 1 v 1 though so my tactics must not depend on outside help.

EDIT:

Does the Untamed Essence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112720) discipline seem good against magic?

Do you think I can use the Open Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188014) discipline effectively to debuff the enemy?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sapphire Nightmare Blade makes Enemies flat-footed and it is a level 1 Diamond Mind Strike :smallbiggrin:

[Endelehia]

The Karsite from ToM is pretty decent for an anti-mage build.It is basically human so it might slide with your DM ( probably not though ).

Mage Slayer feat chain will probably be useful.

Thicket of blades stance is also nice to have,especially with a spiked chain to prevent them escaping melee range by non-magical means.It is a crusader stance of course.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The Karsite from ToM is pretty decent for an anti-mage build.It is basically human so it might slide with your DM ( probably not though ).

Mage Slayer feat chain will probably be useful.

Thicket of blades stance is also nice to have,especially with a spiked chain to prevent them escaping melee range by non-magical means.It is a crusader stance of course.

That was the stance I was talking about :smallsmile:

[Mithril Leaf]

Get feathered wings. The very cheapest non-magic source of flight avaliable. Very handy so long as you aren't the face and are non-good.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Actually the save isn't that hard (15) and if you have Moment of Perfect Mind, you can be Lawful Good and won't fail the save ( 14 modifier is enough, so at say level 7-ish which I think is when you are first able to afford it you have 10 ranks+3 con+2 mtw tool=you autopass the saving throw)

[Gnome Alone]

Kinda cool to see one of these "Help Stabby kill the wizard" threads that's an actual scenario that's going to play out, and not another theoretical duel, with a concomitant intellectual arms race to follow as everyone thinks up the most crazy-prepared wizard in the universe.

If magic is out... what does that mean for magic items? Will those still be available? Because I recall reading somewhere that AMF arrows are supposed to be pretty good. Though I'm not sure how that works RAW.

[Snowbluff]

Do you know any way of consistent debuffs without weapon enchantments? As far as I know, magic weapons are off limits in this game - it's all about our own raw personal power (in the form of a free Vow of Poverty without the standard limitations as well as our own martial maneuvers).

Complete Warrior weapon style feats, as well as the aforementioned [Ambush] feats. I suggested Three Mountains Earlier, which will Nauseate, preventing spellcasting.


The problem with sneak attack is that I cannot promise to be able to use it - I don't know whether sneak attack will even affect the Ogre Magi. Even if it does, the battle is only 1 on 1 - that nullifies the most common tactic to use sneak attack (flanking) and I don't know how I can consistently make them flat footed.

You can do things like feint still. There are few maneuvers that will help, like Sapphire Nightmare Blade.

[eggs]

Fear-stacking can also completely shut unprepared enemies down with status effects without relying on magic gear (but Fearsome armor really helps).

On AMF arrows, I'm really not sure how that would work without Arcane Archer or Ordained Champion/Spellsword+trickery.

[Talionis]

Aside from improved initiative, is there any other method?

White Raven Tactics technically works on you since you are an ally of yourself and it doesn't explicitly say not yourself. Check your DM, also that may be the only thing actually errata from ToB...

But Diamond Mind has a boost later (Moment of Alacrity) that will boost your initiative.

What level are you competing at?

[JKTrickster]

I'm currently going full Warblade level 10. But I will probably be fighting these Magi at a much higher level. I don't really expect to face spells higher than the 6th level cause that seems to go against the spirit of the campaign.

There definitely seems to be a lack of magical items though.

[avr]

Rather than warblade 10, could I suggest dipping a level of swordsage (as late as possible)? A few extra level 1-3 maneuvers could be more helpful than you might think. Also, if you're dropping Tiger Claw for a homebrewed discipline you probably want to get it back somehow to get Hunters Sense (to find invisible ogre magi) and Sudden Leap.

[JKTrickster]

Hmm Swordsage...interesting!

I actually ended up putting two levels of Monk into my build. Do you think I should exchange them for Swordsage?

[Alienist]

Some levels in Monk + Eversmoking bottle > any magic user

[Dusk Eclipse]

Hmm Swordsage...interesting!

I actually ended up putting two levels of Monk into my build. Do you think I should exchange them for Swordsage?

If you trade evasion for spell-reflection and get stance of alacrity (sadly a high level trick) you can reflect spells with your sword!!! (Wall of blades FTW!!!)

[Endarire]

Use a flavor of Hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462).

[JKTrickster]

If you trade evasion for spell-reflection and get stance of alacrity (sadly a high level trick) you can reflect spells with your sword!!! (Wall of blades FTW!!!)

Oh good catch!



Use a flavor of Hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462).

Hmm which flavor do you recommend?

[herrhauptmann]

How about the Jack B Quick build?
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick

From PHB2, there's the trophy taker feat. (Normally meh)
Might be useful to put an extra penalty on them. Particularly if you can intimidate the ogre mage with a regular ogre head.

[JKTrickster]

I don't actually know if they are Ogre. They're just called that. :smallconfused: