combo interactions

[limejuicepowder]

Many builds proposed on these forums often use combos of feats and/or abilities that don't make a bit of sense to me, and I hoping someone can explain them to me in more detail then is usually shown in a build

1) Beastland Ferocity + Eldritch Claws: why is the always shown to do well together? As far as I can tell, the Eldritch Claws are already combining the claw damage with unarmed strike damage. The feat does the same thing. Why is this useful? Unless the full combo is to get another claw source, for example half-dragon (not a good claw source I know, but it's just an example), and combine all three? Certainly not RAI, IMO.

2) Metamagic Reducers + Zero-modifier feats: using metamagic feats like Invisible Spell to create a "surplus" of metamagic levels to then apply expensive metamagics for free. Really? Does that mean if I combine Invisible Spell and Arcane Thesis (fireball), I can cast it out of a second level slot? Or 0-level, with enough zero-modifier feats?

3) This isn't the same type of question as the others, but can eldritch claws and ToB maneuvers be used in conjunction?

Thanks

[Aegis013]

Uh, are you sure Beastland Ferocity is right for question 1? Do you mean Beast Strike?

[eggs]

1. Beastland Ferocity and Eldritch Claws isn't a combo I've heard of or can find on Google. I don't see any synergy there.

2. There's some contention on whether it should include negative values (not that it does), but Arcane Thesis's errata have a stipulation that tags a floor to the final level of metamagic adjustment.

3. Yes. Eldritch claws just makes the weapons, it isn't an attack type of its own.

[limejuicepowder]

whoops sorry. Yes I mean Beast strike - the feat that combines unarmed strike and claw/slam. Dragon mag #355, if my research is correct.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1) Eldritch Claw feat: Free action to activate, you gain claws that deal Eldritch Blast damage. You have claws, they deal EB damage, 'nuff said.

Beast Strike feat: When you make an unarmed strike or a grapple check to deal unarmed damage, you add your claw damage to your unarmed strike damage. When you make an unarmed strike, your claw damage (thus EB damage) gets added on for that hit.

You can wear a Monk's Belt and get all the benefits of a Monk 5 for unarmed strikes. You can TWF with unarmed strikes, and even get Gloves of the Balanced Hand for ITWF without spending a feat or meeting the Dex prerequisite. Unarmed strikes get iterative attacks for a high BAB. You're basically able to full attack with a primary weapon, plus get two offhand attacks, and add your full EB damage to every hit, for a cost of three feats, two items, and a bunch of Warlock levels and EB optimization.

3) Eldritch Claws would be considered claw attacks, thus just as eligible for martial maneuvers as any other melee weapon. You should probably use unarmed strikes though, and get your claw damage added onto your unarmed strike damage if using the above combo.

2) PH2 Errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a), “A spell cannot be reduced to below its original level with the use of this feat.” You can still cast an Invisible, Split Ray, Rod of Maximized, Arcane Thesis Enervation from a 4th level spell slot. You could also probably throw Sanctum Spell on there, which makes it count as a 3rd level spell outside your sanctum and thus it can be reduced to a 3rd level slot, plus you can get away with a considerably cheaper Lesser Rod of Maximize.

[tyckspoon]

Eldritch Claws lets you make 2 claw attacks that also inflict your unarmed strike damage. Beast Strike lets you make unarmed strikes that also inflict your claw damage. The difference is that Beast Strike allows you to make iterative attacks, while Eldritch Claws uses the Natural Weapons rules; when you have a higher-level character, adding in Beast Strike can generate significantly more attacks than Eldritch Claws alone.

Arcane Thesis explicitly cannot reduce a spell beyond its base spell level. It *can* completely counteract another metamagic, however- an Invisible Empowered Thesis spell is a net zero adjustment.

[limejuicepowder]

Eldritch Claws lets you make 2 claw attacks that also inflict your unarmed strike damage. Beast Strike lets you make unarmed strikes that also inflict your claw damage. The difference is that Beast Strike allows you to make iterative attacks, while Eldritch Claws uses the Natural Weapons rules; when you have a higher-level character, adding in Beast Strike can generate significantly more attacks than Eldritch Claws alone.

Arcane Thesis explicitly cannot reduce a spell beyond its base spell level. It *can* completely counteract another metamagic, however- an Invisible Empowered Thesis spell is a net zero adjustment.

Ah-hah so that's what Beast Strike is for. Well that makes sense, thank you (and thanks to everyone else who gave basically the same answer).

However, I still don't understand the use of Arcane Thesis. Invisible Spell doesn't actually increase spell level, but Empower Spell raises it by 2. Since Arcane Thesis reduces each by one, and I.S. can't be reduced, it stacks with the reduction for E.S.? Maybe I just don't agree with that interpretation (since it's certainly not explicitly said), but that makes no sense to me.

[lsfreak]

However, I still don't understand the use of Arcane Thesis. Invisible Spell doesn't actually increase spell level, but Empower Spell raises it by 2. Since Arcane Thesis reduces each by one, and I.S. can't be reduced, it stacks with the reduction for E.S.? Maybe I just don't agree with that interpretation (since it's certainly not explicitly said), but that makes no sense to me.

I think the key is that the feat does not lower the level adjustment of the metamagic feat, it lowers the spell level directly.

[ThiagoMartell]

Beast Strike also increases base damage, though that's a really small benefit when compared to the extra attacks it grants.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ah-hah so that's what Beast Strike is for. Well that makes sense, thank you (and thanks to everyone else who gave basically the same answer).

However, I still don't understand the use of Arcane Thesis. Invisible Spell doesn't actually increase spell level, but Empower Spell raises it by 2. Since Arcane Thesis reduces each by one, and I.S. can't be reduced, it stacks with the reduction for E.S.? Maybe I just don't agree with that interpretation (since it's certainly not explicitly said), but that makes no sense to me.

It doesn't reduce each metamagic individually, it counts how many total metamagic feats are on the spell after they've all been applied. It then reduces that spell's total spell slot level by the number of metamagics, regardless of each metamagic's individual cost.

[nedz]

However, I still don't understand the use of Arcane Thesis. Invisible Spell doesn't actually increase spell level, but Empower Spell raises it by 2. Since Arcane Thesis reduces each by one, and I.S. can't be reduced, it stacks with the reduction for E.S.? Maybe I just don't agree with that interpretation (since it's certainly not explicitly said), but that makes no sense to me.

Empower +2
Arcane Thesis[Empower] +1
Invisible Spell +0
Arcane Thesis[Invisible Spell] -1 (But this gets over-ridden to 0 by the Errata)
Arcane Thesis[Empower]+Arcane Thesis[Invisible Spell] = +1 -1 = 0 (no over-ride required)

Read the following more carefully:

PH2 Errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a), “A spell cannot be reduced to below its original level with the use of this feat."