Throwing/Poison Optimization

[Eugenides]

So I was reading this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) poison handbook, and the author says that one of the best ways to apply poison would be with ranged/thrown weapons.

Then I remembered that, while I'm not much at optimization, I have heard that there are some pretty nasty thrower builds out there that focus on multiple attacks that are fairly accurate for low damage.

So then, how easy would it be to combine these two builds into someone that can sit back with an arsenal of thrown weapons and spam poisoned weapons forcing multiple saves against a poison DC every combat round?

Mainly, I'm wondering how easily we could share the feats between these two builds, since both routes seem fairly feat-intensive.

Two things: this likely will be insanely low power level, that's ok, we're going for a fun build, and bonus points if we can work in the trouserfang dwarf (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19860262/The_Trouserfang_Dwarf:_A_Rebirth) build.

[Mithril Leaf]

So I was reading this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) poison handbook, and the author says that one of the best ways to apply poison would be with ranged/thrown weapons.

Then I remembered that, while I'm not much at optimization, I have heard that there are some pretty nasty thrower builds out there that focus on multiple attacks that are fairly accurate for low damage.

So then, how easy would it be to combine these two builds into someone that can sit back with an arsenal of thrown weapons and spam poisoned weapons forcing multiple saves against a poison DC every combat round?

Mainly, I'm wondering how easily we could share the feats between these two builds, since both routes seem fairly feat-intensive.

Two things: this likely will be insanely low power level, that's ok, we're going for a fun build, and bonus points if we can work in the trouserfang dwarf (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19860262/The_Trouserfang_Dwarf:_A_Rebirth) build.

All you really need for absurd poisonmaking is hidden talent and a set of manifester shurikens. After that you can focus on applying poison, perhaps using the crossbow build it's got already made. This version is more up to date by the way. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2714)

[Eugenides]

All you really need for absurd poisonmaking is hidden talent and a set of manifester shurikens. After that you can focus on applying poison, perhaps using the crossbow build it's got already made. This version is more up to date by the way. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2714)

Is there perhaps a way to do it without psionics? Edit: and thanks for the updated version. While the crossbow build is nice, I was specifically wondering about combinations of throwing and poison application.

[Mithril Leaf]

Is there perhaps a way to do it without psionics? Edit: and thanks for the updated version. While the crossbow build is nice, I was specifically wondering about combinations of throwing and poison application.

Black Dog is the only non-psionic way I can think off. Maybe go ToB and combine it with Bloodstorm Blade?

EDIT: At low levels that is. If you feel like going largely caster or manifester, factotum, wizard, artificer, and I think archivist work.

[Eugenides]

Hm. I can't seem to find anything that tells me about the Black Dog class, so I can't comment on it.

However, you seem to be dancing around the main point I've made: throwing build, like master thrower/whisperknife/rogue etc. Then throw in poison use. Can this work?

[Mithril Leaf]

Hm. I can't seem to find anything that tells me about the Black Dog class, so I can't comment on it.

However, you seem to be dancing around the main point I've made: throwing build, like master thrower/whisperknife/rogue etc. Then throw in poison use. Can this work?

If you use a few short circuiting tricks, 100%. If you don't want to use psionics or something like that, it's a trade off of power for poison or the other way around. It's fairly feasible to have both, but it's not as strong as one of the other without using a few tricks.

[Eugenides]

If you use a few short circuiting tricks, 100%. If you don't want to use psionics or something like that, it's a trade off of power for poison or the other way around. It's fairly feasible to have both, but it's not as strong as one of the other without using a few tricks.

Yeah, I did figure that it would lose some power for one or the other, if mainly because both require a decent number of feats, and sharing them means less optimal power for either.

[Alleine]

I don't see why it wouldn't work. Throwing a half dozen bottles of contact poison at one guy is going to be exceedingly brutal. The only problem with stuff like that is missing out on the delicious, delicious poison boosting weapon enchantments. Even using poisoned throwing weapons is a problem because you REALLY cannot afford to enchant them all, though a party member who can Chain Greater Magic Weapon would certainly help.

The ability to magically create poisons, while helpful, is unnecessary. Making your own is remarkably cheap and is one of the faster crafting skills. Of course if you expect to have zero downtime with which to craft, you'll either blow all your money on poisons, or be forced to acquire magical creation methods.

[Mithril Leaf]

I don't see why it wouldn't work. Throwing a half dozen bottles of contact poison at one guy is going to be exceedingly brutal. The only problem with stuff like that is missing out on the delicious, delicious poison boosting weapon enchantments. Even using poisoned throwing weapons is a problem because you REALLY cannot afford to enchant them all, though a party member who can Chain Greater Magic Weapon would certainly help.

The ability to magically create poisons, while helpful, is unnecessary. Making your own is remarkably cheap and is one of the faster crafting skills. Of course if you expect to have zero downtime with which to craft, you'll either blow all your money on poisons, or be forced to acquire magical creation methods.

To produce ten doses of black lotus extract is 15,000 gp. That's a fairly hefty sum for 10 tries. To produce that much with minor creation is a single spell slot. You're saving a ton of money by using magic to make it.

[Piggy Knowles]

Other non-psionic ways of saving money when producing poisons include...

1. Have a companion that can produce the raw materials for poison, rather than having to purchase them. Animal companions, familiars, the Wild Cohort feat, calling spells and the Handle Animal skill are all ways to go about this.

2. Just cast Minor Creation. Sure, it's a fourth-level spell as opposed to a first-level power, but it's still a really good spell regardless. Wizards get it on their list naturally, and it appears on a couple of cleric domains as well. It's a nice choice for factotums to pick up with Arcane Dilettante, also.

3. If you're human, the lesser Mark of Making dragonmark gives Minor Creation as an SLA 1/day. That's more than enough, really. The greater version gives either Major Creation or Fabricate, both of which are also exceedingly useful. Available for any human with the investment of 2-3 feats.

4. As mentioned, the Black Dog prestige class (from Dragonmarked, an Eberron supplement). It's got some cool abilities, including the ability to create various poisons and to remotely poison drinks. Halfling only, but halflings are great throwers, so that's fine.

Finally, the Alchemist Savant prestige class (Magic of Eberron) has some pretty cool abilities, including poison use and the ability to combine poisons with alchemical items (allowing you to use poison as a splash weapon - not too shabby!). I'd consider it strongly for a poison vial thrower.

[Alleine]

To produce ten doses of black lotus extract is 15,000 gp. That's a fairly hefty sum for 10 tries. To produce that much with minor creation is a single spell slot. You're saving a ton of money by using magic to make it.

Sure if you want to go with some of the most powerful poisons right out of the gate, and all day long, you want to magic it up. But if Black Lotus Extract is your go-to poison why would you even bother with something like master thrower? One dose is almost enough, and 2 is overkill for almost everything.

Utilizing Master Thrower you can easily pelt someone with a half-dozen doses of a weaker and vastly cheaper poison for essentially the same effect.

Not to mention the headache of how many doses of a given poison are in 1 cubic foot of solid poison. Or the books the DM will likely throw at your head. :smalltongue:

[Mithril Leaf]

Sure if you want to go with some of the most powerful poisons right out of the gate, and all day long, you want to magic it up. But if Black Lotus Extract is your go-to poison why would you even bother with something like master thrower? One dose is almost enough, and 2 is overkill for almost everything.

Utilizing Master Thrower you can easily pelt someone with a half-dozen doses of a weaker and vastly cheaper poison for essentially the same effect.

Not to mention the headache of how many doses of a given poison are in 1 cubic foot of solid poison. Or the books the DM will likely throw at your head. :smalltongue:

It's 957. And I've bought a helmet for when I use it.

[Eugenides]

Or the books the DM will likely throw at your head. :smalltongue:

Sadly not likely to happen. My DM is the kind of person who will just flat-out ignore your 2 points of damage reduction because he doesn't like dealing with it.

Using spells like this will likely warrant him flat-out fiating that I can't do it because he doesn't want powerful characters.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also expect to see a lot of creatures either immune to Poison by virtue of having no metabolism, or creatures which are flat immune to ability damage/drain.