Fire spells with no attack roll or save

[Morithias]

Near the end of the Demon King campaign they are going to encounter Apostle Sukazu/Gigai whose speciality is one on one combat, so I want to give him an attack that is completely overpowered in that context.

Is there a spell that I could base the crunch of the attack off of, a fire spell with no attack roll or save?

Basically he'll be able to 1/day use this spell maximized and empowered as a supernatural ability. His job is basically to challenge enemy generals to 1 vs 1 combat and murder them to decrease enemy morale.

So what spell should I base this one hit kill off of?

Note: No this is not going to be used as a cheap shot to be a jerk to my PC's, this is going to be used during the war sequence when they're doing the ritual to cure Miki. Basically a "hold the fort against a huge demon army with the help of every country in the world" scenario. Just thought due to...complaints about my DMing that I would put that out there.

[ericgrau]

Off the top of my head there's wall of fire. It also does some damage over time and double damage against undead so it's probably a bit weaker than an instant no save spell should be. But it's a good starting point. Maybe double its damage for a 1 round duration that doesn't get bonus damage against any type of foe. Ice storm is the same level and does 5d6 no save and it reduces movement speed for a round. You might try something like 4d6 + caster level or a flat 7d6.

Note that empower + maximize does not maximize the extra 50% from the empower. You roll for this and add half your roll to the maximized amount.

And note you're basically asking for a 9th level spell to do about 65 damage. Most spells that are reliable sacrifice damage in exchange. It does strongly suggest DM railroad to have an effect that is both powerful and reliable. But since it's only 1/day it wouldn't be terribly unreasonable at level 13 or maybe higher, as a way to reliably kill 7th level fighters.

[Malroth]

If you don't mind making a Touch attack for a No save No SR Spell, Orb of Fire combined with Searing spell is a staple of Mailman builds everywhere for 95% guaranteed damage

[candycorn]

I'd recommend going with an attack roll spell, personally. You'll get much better damage out of them. No Save/No attack abilities are very, very rare, and that is intentional. Those that do exist have a very low damage output.

Contrast an orb spell, which is capable of obscene damage, requires only a ranged touch roll, and allows no save vs the damage.

Follow up with a True Strike SLA (give the guy a quickened True Strike 1/day, for a +20 to attack, and ignore all miss chances due to concealment), and a Maximized empowered admixtured Twin searing spell Orb of Fire will do about what you're looking for.

[NichG]

One classic trick is a fistful of Fire Seeds (Holly Berry bombs specifically), but there's a Reflex save. Still, its 8*(1d8+CL) damage for a 6th level spell, so a logical minimum of 88+8d6 before any enhancements. Plus there's nothing stopping you from piling up a couple of castings into a huge alpha strike.

[Herabec]

Near the end of the Demon King campaign they are going to encounter Apostle Sukazu/Gigai whose speciality is one on one combat, so I want to give him an attack that is completely overpowered in that context.

Is there a spell that I could base the crunch of the attack off of, a fire spell with no attack roll or save?

Basically he'll be able to 1/day use this spell maximized and empowered as a supernatural ability. His job is basically to challenge enemy generals to 1 vs 1 combat and murder them to decrease enemy morale.

So what spell should I base this one hit kill off of?

Note: No this is not going to be used as a cheap shot to be a jerk to my PC's, this is going to be used during the war sequence when they're doing the ritual to cure Miki. Basically a "hold the fort against a huge demon army with the help of every country in the world" scenario. Just thought due to...complaints about my DMing that I would put that out there.

This campaign setting sounds eerily familiar... :smallconfused:

But enough of that. As has been touched upon, Fire Orb is a good one. It's also just about the only 'fire' themed spell I can think of that doesn't offer such resistances. And even it requires a touch attack, but those are normally peasy.

I suppose there's also Energy Substitute: Fire Magic Missile. No attack roll, no save. Just pure fire damage. Though it's pretty crappy. Guess you could homebrew it into something more...BAMF though.

[KillianHawkeye]

I suppose there's also Energy Substitute: Fire Magic Missile. No attack roll, no save. Just pure fire damage. Though it's pretty crappy. Guess you could homebrew it into something more...BAMF though.

I don't think you can Energy Substitute a magic missile spell, because Force is not one of the 5 energy types (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic). The Force Missile Mage from Dragon Magazine Compendium gets this ability as a class feature, but I'm still not sure why. There are way fewer things immune or resistant to force effects than energy attacks.

[Morithias]

This campaign setting sounds eerily familiar... :smallconfused:


Sengoku Rance. There's your answer.

Also thanks for the suggestions people. Looks like Orb of fire it is!

[Hecuba]

I don't think you can Energy Substitute a magic missile spell, because Force is not one of the 5 energy types (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic). The Force Missile Mage from Dragon Magazine Compendium gets this ability as a class feature, but I'm still not sure why. There are way fewer things immune or resistant to force effects than energy attacks.

There are some riders available for energy attacks that work nicely with magic missile. At low levels, for example, Lingering Spell effectively doubles your output if you're splitting the missiles.

[Eldariel]

The only spell I can think of that truly resembles what you want is Maw of Chaos [Spell Compendium]. It's not fire by default (nothing some metamagic can't fix of course) but it does CLd6 damage without a save or attack roll in an area and persists. Only defenses it offers are being a chaotic outsider (they're immune) and Spell Resistance.

[Morithias]

The only spell I can think of that truly resembles what you want is Maw of Chaos [Spell Compendium]. It's not fire by default (nothing some metamagic can't fix of course) but it does CLd6 damage without a save or attack roll in an area and persists. Only defenses it offers are being a chaotic outsider (they're immune) and Spell Resistance.

Holy cow that's perfect! Since the only people in Sengoku Rance that can survive Suzaku's attack have "Absolute spell guard" (immune to magic), or

There is a special scene that turns one of your units into a Demon, and after that he is able to survive Gigai's attack. Gigai will kill everyone else with one exception, even the main character.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The only spell I can think of that truly resembles what you want is Maw of Chaos [Spell Compendium]. It's not fire by default (nothing some metamagic can't fix of course) but it does CLd6 damage without a save or attack roll in an area and persists. Only defenses it offers are being a chaotic outsider (they're immune) and Spell Resistance.

For a similar lower level example, there's always Wings of Flurry (with metamagic enhancements, of course).

[Malroth]

Holy cow that's perfect! Since the only people in Sengoku Rance that can survive Suzaku's attack have "Absolute spell guard" (immune to magic), or

There is a special scene that turns one of your units into a Demon, and after that he is able to survive Gigai's attack. Gigai will kill everyone else with one exception, even the main character.

Orb of fire is still more reliable since it can kill people even with absolute immunity to magic.

[Morithias]

Orb of fire is still more reliable since it can kill people even with absolute immunity to magic.

Yeah but with a level 20 or more caster level it would be expensive to get any kind of spell resistance that would reliably avoid it. Getting immunity to fire is a level 6 spell.

Not to mention that since Miki can turn them into demons by giving them her blood, this attack will tempt one of them into becoming a demon.

[Starbuck_II]

Near the end of the Demon King campaign they are going to encounter Apostle Sukazu/Gigai whose speciality is one on one combat, so I want to give him an attack that is completely overpowered in that context.

Is there a spell that I could base the crunch of the attack off of, a fire spell with no attack roll or save?

Basically he'll be able to 1/day use this spell maximized and empowered as a supernatural ability. His job is basically to challenge enemy generals to 1 vs 1 combat and murder them to decrease enemy morale.

So what spell should I base this one hit kill off of?

Note: No this is not going to be used as a cheap shot to be a jerk to my PC's, this is going to be used during the war sequence when they're doing the ritual to cure Miki. Basically a "hold the fort against a huge demon army with the help of every country in the world" scenario. Just thought due to...complaints about my DMing that I would put that out there.

Not fire:
there is Snake Darts though that is more fearsome as each dart (you shot two) deals 3d6 damage (no attack roll) and causes a Fort save (or 1d6 Con, 1 minute later 1d6 Con). Wu jen spell.

Hail of Stones: deals 1d4/level to an area no save.

[Crasical]

I'm familiar with only, uh, the most ... base aspects of the Rance series. Could you not simply use a standard overpowered enough that it would one-shot just about any NPC general, or does authority equal asskicking and the kings and generals of this setting are usually epic level badasses?

[Morithias]

I'm familiar with only, uh, the most ... base aspects of the Rance series. Could you not simply use a standard overpowered enough that it would one-shot just about any NPC general, or does authority equal asskicking and the kings and generals of this setting are usually epic level badasses?

It's really only going to keep happening once or twice until they kill him. And yes authority does equal asskicking. Gigai in this campaign is literally one of the apostles of the Demon King, on par or even above the Archdevils and Demon Lords. The main reason he's only throwing around this one attack is because he was sealed for a thousand years and the demon king isn't fully awaken.

Since he can only do it once a day, 20d6 damage isn't that great around level 15 or so. Sure it'll kill the level 7 NPC general, but if the PCs wanted I'm 90% sure they could take him even without one of them taking Miki's blood which would just make them immune to the attack.

[limejuicepowder]

It's really only going to keep happening once or twice until they kill him. And yes authority does equal asskicking. Gigai in this campaign is literally one of the apostles of the Demon King, on par or even above the Archdevils and Demon Lords. The main reason he's only throwing around this one attack is because he was sealed for a thousand years and the demon king isn't fully awaken.

Since he can only do it once a day, 20d6 damage isn't that great around level 15 or so. Sure it'll kill the level 7 NPC general, but if the PCs wanted I'm 90% sure they could take him even without one of them taking Miki's blood which would just make them immune to the attack.

If you are only going to use it against an NPC, why is it so important for it be be automatic? Your the DM, for plot reason, don't give the dude a save.

And really, a ranged touch spell has a ridicules chance to succeed by RAW anyways, is that not good enough?

[jaybird]

Getting immunity to fire is a level 6 spell.


Dealing half damage to Fire Immune is a +2 metamagic. Searing Spell from Sandstorm, unless I'm mistaken.

[ericgrau]

Magic immunity is a rare ability and a "hahahaha no, not without major drawbacks" spell. And assay spell resistance is a 4th (5th?) level spell IIRC. I'd question more why he has such a high caster level that he can overcome almost any spell resistance. And really I'd question assay spell resistance and maybe searing spell too, but let's go in order of bigger OPness/heavy-handed DMness to smaller.

Overall I think immunities of either type, particularly from enemy generals, are uncommon anyway. And even if they got wind of his reputation the most likely response is protection from energy which helps either way.

[Morithias]

Magic immunity is a rare ability and a "hahahaha no, not without major drawbacks" spell. And assay spell resistance is a 4th (5th?) level spell IIRC. I'd question more why he has such a high caster level that he can overcome almost any spell resistance. And really I'd question assay spell resistance and maybe searing spell too, but let's go in order of bigger OPness/heavy-handed DMness to smaller.

Overall I think immunities of either type, particularly from enemy generals, are uncommon anyway. And even if they got wind of his reputation the most likely response is protection from energy which helps either way.

High caster level. What part of "Apostle of the Demon King" do you not understand? I'm trying to be clear.



If you are only going to use it against an NPC, why is it so important for it be be automatic? Your the DM, for plot reason, don't give the dude a save.

And really, a ranged touch spell has a ridicules chance to succeed by RAW anyways, is that not good enough?

I have to have it planned cause I have a rule that my players can see any NPC sheets after the campaign is over. If I just give him "enemy character dies" as an ability, they're not going to be happy about it cause it mean they can't trust me as much anymore.

I like both ideas, and although orb of fire is more in line with what I asked for, Maw of Chaos is more in line with what I wanted (seriously I didn't even know that spell existed).