Is Crusader Broken?

[Invader]

I started laying a crusader tonight and it seemed really over powered to me. I might have it optimized a bit to much but it still feels like I over shadowed everyone else in the group.

Here's my build

4th Level
Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1
Crusader 3

Str 18
Dex 8
Con 18

Using Greatsword +1
BaB 4 + Str 4 + 1 weapon enhancement = +9 attack bonus

Regualr Atk +9 Damage 2d6+7
Charge Atk +11 Damage 2d6+7 -2 AC
Full Pwr Atk +5 Damage 2d6+15
Charge Full Pwr Atk +7 Damage 2d6+15 -2 AC
Rage Atk +11 Damage 2d6+9 -2 AC
Rage charge Atk +13 Damage 2d6+9 -4 AC
Rage Pwr Atk +7 Damage 2d6+19 -2 AC
Rage charge Pwr Atk +9 Damage 2d6+19 -4 AC

On top of that I can use Bone Crusher maneuver for another 4d6 damage on top of any of those attacks.

So on a raging power attack I do 6d6+19 damage at only a -2 AC. Are my figures all correct or am I missing something somewhere.

Also, is there a rule about how many maneuvers you can use a round or can I use white raven tactics as a swift action after using another maneuver like bone crusher?

[Kazyan]

Crusader isn't broken, but it comes from the book of "here, we optimized it for you". What does the rest of the group look like? ToB is a little too much for parties that don't optimize, particularly if they use the melee classes that ToB overlaps with.

[Cyrion]

There are probably exceptions, but it's a pretty firm rule that you can only use one maneuver per round, whether that action is a swift action, melee attack or full-round action.

[eggs]

ToB is also really front-loaded toward low levels. But if you did the same thing with a Psychic Warrior, you'd get similar results - or a Whirling Frenzy Barb - or a mounted-charger Paladin - or an AoO fighter, and often without the recharge time.

EDIT:
And maneuvers follow normal action rules - you can use a swift action Boost and a standard action Strike in any given round. It might be notable that strikes are standard actions that include attacks, not just alternate kind of attacks (maybe obvious, but I've seen a couple people think they could full attack with several different strikes in one round).

[Invader]

There are probably exceptions, but it's a pretty firm rule that you can only use one maneuver per round, whether that action is a swift action, melee attack or full-round action.

I wasn't sure about that but I kinda figured that's how it went.

[tyckspoon]

Eh. You're at the highest arc of Tome of Battle's power (when you're comparing Maneuver-enhanced attacks to single mundane attacks in levels 1-5) using a melee character with really good stats at the highest point of *their* power (your natural AC/HP/damage bonuses are better than most of what you're fighting without putting special effort into them.) It's not broken or really overpowered in the longer run of things, but it can be better than you/your GM is used to characters doing at that particular level.

[Invader]

Crusader isn't broken, but it comes from the book of "here, we optimized it for you". What does the rest of the group look like? ToB is a little too much for parties that don't optimize, particularly if they use the melee classes that ToB overlaps with.

TWF Dagger Rogue
Illusion focused Wizard
And some sort of cleric that could be optimized but I'm not really sure because the guy playing him is using rules from 3.5 and PF (with DM's permission).

[Invader]

Ahhh I see part of my problem was that I was using 3rd level maneuvers to early. I thought if was a 3rd level maneuver, a 3rd level crusader could use but I see that's not the case.

This evens things out quite a bit I guess.

[tyckspoon]

Also you don't actually qualify for Bonecrusher yet, incidentally- the comparison might look a bit less overpowered if you kept to the level 1 and 2 maneuvers that you do qualify to use.

(Your Initiator Level is 3- 3 levels of Crusader + 1/2 of your other levels, round down because that's how D&D does it and nothing in ToB says to do it otherwise. You qualify for maneuver levels at the same rate a Wizard would- eg, level 1 maneuvers at IL 1, level 2 at IL 3, 3 at IL 5, etc. Getting this wrong is one of the leading causes of 'ToB is broken' complaints- well, of course it is when you're doing that. So is letting a level 9 Wizard cast 9th level spells.)

[NoldorForce]

There are probably exceptions, but it's a pretty firm rule that you can only use one maneuver per round, whether that action is a swift action, melee attack or full-round action.Er, what? The book doesn't say this anywhere; indeed if it did people would be repeating it with the same fervor as the primary rule of 3.5 psionics (no more PP per power than your ML).

@ OP: As noted above, ToB has a relatively high optimization floor. Also keep in mind that you're only 4th level - once folks get BAB 6+ full attacks can potentially do more damage, and they certainly can't be mixed with standard-action maneuvers. And on top of this you seem to mostly know what you're doing if you've grabbed Lion Totem Barbarian.

On top of that you seem to have misunderstood how maneuver access works if you're thinking you've got access to Bonecrusher (ML 3). See, it's roughly the same as access to spells or powers of a given level for full casters/manifesters - class level 1 gets SL/PL 1 access, and for every two levels beyond that you get access to the next highest level. At this point your IL (upon which access is based in the same way) is 3, so you have access to ML 2 maneuvers at most. Mountain Hammer's about the best you can do for damage in the Stone Dragon discipline, and while it's still +2d6 damage keep in mind that you can't spam that. Everyone's got their refresh mechanics, and the crusader's is the most forgiving (wait a few rounds), but you're still using your maneuvers like a scalpel rather than a hammer.

[Flickerdart]

Everyone's got their refresh mechanics, and the crusader's is the most forgiving (wait a few rounds), but you're still using your maneuvers like a scalpel rather than a hammer.
Or you build an Idiot Crusader and spam whichever one you want all the time. :smallwink:

[T.G. Oskar]

A Warblade with a Greatsword can deal about 3d6 per blow (greatsword damage + Punishing Stance) at 1st level. Your character is 4th level, so it shouldn't have access to Bonecrusher (a 3rd level maneuver, which is learned at Initiator Level 5th), but it's still quite a good bit of damage. Now, note that part of that damage comes straight from your Strength and the damage from the weapon (without adding Strength damage, only a third of the damage comes from any maneuver), so it's not like the Warblade is broken because of that. A character with a Greatsword and Str 18 deals 2d6+6, which is quite a bit of damage, can take anything with a d6 and no Constitution right to the negatives, and can take just about anything except a character with d12 HD and Con 12 (or d10 HD and Con 16) right into the negatives. Full damage takes ANYTHING into the negatives. And that's with a +5 to the attack bonus, which means it's a reasonable chance to succeed. That's going with Core options, nothing that the Warblade or Crusader directly modifies.

Note that you added Barbarian to the mix: with Power Attack (adding 2 points of damage) and Barbarian (adding 3 more, because of Strength x1.5), that's a mere 11 points of damage at 1st level, which only increases. Again, that's a Core option, and not modified by Tome of Battle in any way.

When you DO add maneuvers to the mix, it only modifies what you've already worked with. Maneuvers were, apparently, balanced with the idea that people don't optimize for damage at 1st level, so they need something to boost damage at low levels, and they thought an extra 1d6/2d6 wouldn't be so dangerous. At 3rd level, a Foehammer or Mountain Hammer dealing an extra 2d6 would not be comparable to, say, a Shocking Grasp dealing 3d6 damage or more (which is wrong; it's only comparable if you dealt damage with a 1d4 weapon and Str 12, because otherwise you'll deal more damage, though not so much weighed damage which compares your average/total damage to your chances of hitting), which is as much as you can do at 3rd level with maneuvers (save for Fire Riposte, which is as powerful as Scorching Ray except as a Counter with melee range). It's already stronger than a blaster (and has a way to recover said maneuver, which means it has lasting utility), so optimizing for damage takes that even further, which leads to "ToB is broken" thoughts. Essentially, they peg the problem to ToB instead of considering that they're, consciously or unconsciously, optimizing for damage. By taking a 2 handed weapon and Power Attack, you're doing minimal damage optimization, and deal constant damage (unlike maneuvers, which are slightly more limited in terms of uses per round).

It's less about "ToB is broken" and more about "optimizing for damage makes anything feel broken". The first 5-6 levels are quite dangerous territory, because anything can be felled in one or two blows: note the orc, which with its falchion and decent Strength can kill any creature easily, and that's a 1st level orc warrior. By 6th level or higher, you'll feel that ToB is right at its sweet spot: several sweet maneuvers that deal damage, or provide awesome benefits (such as dealing Constitution/Wisdom damage, paralysis, maneuver versions of Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack, impose miss chances, negate move actions), but nearly all creatures can withstand at least one attack, so you don't feel like dealing a lot of damage (unlike when making a charge with pounce, particularly when a Haste spell is cast on you). It's the first impression that really shocks people, and since most games are played at the first five/six levels, people deem ToB as broken. By 6th level spellcasters are already pushing ahead, and by 11th level spellcasters have their win tactics already in place; martial adepts only barely compare (with Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics being the two exceptions, maneuvers that most people consider the best at any level).

Now, what I mentioned regarding the cool maneuvers and Iron Heart Surge doesn't really apply to Crusaders. The one thing that you might consider broken from the Crusader is its recovery method, which is confusing at best. For example: after 10th level, are you granted two or three maneuvers once the recovery method kicks in? With Extra Granted Maneuver? Do you recover maneuvers, thus, every four rounds (three with EGM), or every (maneuvers readied -2) rounds? But, in terms of damage, it's not that much. Heck, even with Steely Resolve, a pure Barbarian can easily equate or even outdamage the Crusader; the Crusader is best as a tank class (with Iron Guard's Glare or Thicket of Blades, for example).

[Invader]

I did note above that I figured out the maneuvers incorrectly and that it would have brought my power more in line with the rest of the party.

[Salanmander]

I wasn't sure about that but I kinda figured that's how it went.

I would just like to reiterate what NoldorForce said, since you may have set your opinion based on Cyrion's post.

Nothing stops you from using as many maneuvers as you have actions for. You can use a swift action maneuver, a move action maneuver (though there aren't many of those), and a standard action maneuver all in the same round. However, as eggs noted, you can't use multiple strikes in a full attack, or strikes on AoOs, because those don't grant standard actions. (And man, if they did, a wizard with a spiked chain and combat reflexes would be HILARIOUS.)

If you need convincing, look at boosts. Boosts would be pretty inferior to strikes if you couldn't use them together.

[PinkysBrain]

Also, is there a rule about how many maneuvers you can use a round or can I use white raven tactics as a swift action after using another maneuver like bone crusher?
White raven tactics is broken, crusader is not.

[TopCheese]

I started laying a crusader tonight and it seemed really over powered to me. I might have it optimized a bit to much but it still feels like I over shadowed everyone else in the group.

Here's my build

4th Level
Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1
Crusader 3

Str 18
Dex 8
Con 18

Using Greatsword +1
BaB 4 + Str 4 + 1 weapon enhancement = +9 attack bonus

Regualr Atk +9 Damage 2d6+7
Charge Atk +11 Damage 2d6+7 -2 AC
Full Pwr Atk +5 Damage 2d6+15
Charge Full Pwr Atk +7 Damage 2d6+15 -2 AC
Rage Atk +11 Damage 2d6+9 -2 AC
Rage charge Atk +13 Damage 2d6+9 -4 AC
Rage Pwr Atk +7 Damage 2d6+19 -2 AC
Rage charge Pwr Atk +9 Damage 2d6+19 -4 AC

On top of that I can use Bone Crusher maneuver for another 4d6 damage on top of any of those attacks.

So on a raging power attack I do 6d6+19 damage at only a -2 AC. Are my figures all correct or am I missing something somewhere.

Also, is there a rule about how many maneuvers you can use a round or can I use white raven tactics as a swift action after using another maneuver like bone crusher?

Depends on what you are comparing it to. To the Fighter? Well it is considered that the Fighter is broken in the bad way..

Compared to what the Wizard/Sorcerers get? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#fifthLevelSorcererWizardS pells

Not even close :)

Sure you can break the Crusader (well kind of) but it never really can compare to the tier 1 classes.

EDIT:

White Raven Tactics isn't broken... The rules are broken and how WoTC put them together...

[Siosilvar]

Crusader is not broken compared to other options out there.

Most of the maneuvers, however, are strong options, and they're all in one place. Since they're easier to find, they can seem more powerful than others. That might even be true in some groups, but it is possible and not too difficult to match or exceed a crusader in at least one area (damage, tripping, etc.) with even straight Fighter.


There are probably exceptions, but it's a pretty firm rule that you can only use one maneuver per round, whether that action is a swift action, melee attack or full-round action.

Have a citation? I've never heard of that before.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I did note above that I figured out the maneuvers incorrectly and that it would have brought my power more in line with the rest of the party.

You know, my group did that too the first time (despite my pointing out the error several times). It did, in fact, mess up the balance something fierce.


Have a citation? I've never heard of that before.

You haven't heard it because it's wrong.

[navar100]

There are probably exceptions, but it's a pretty firm rule that you can only use one maneuver per round, whether that action is a swift action, melee attack or full-round action.

That is incorrect. You're only limited by actions, not maneuvers. In one round you can use a swift action boost maneuver, a move-equivalent action maneuver if you have one, a standard action strike maneuver, all the while benefiting from the stance you are currently in.

For example, at high level a Crusader can swift action White Raven Tactics on party member, move action Order Forged From Chaos move action on entire party, standard action attack enemy with White Raven Hammer, while auto-rolling a 11 on that attack in Aura of Perfect Order stance, usually hitting. (I'll never forget that juicy combat round I played. :smallbiggrin: White Raven rocks!)

This is a feature, not a bug. It's only "over-powered" if you think PHB warriors are the only thing melee can be and melee should not get nice things.

[StreamOfTheSky]

White Raven Tactics isn't broken... The rules are broken and how WoTC put them together...

Eh...it's pretty broken if you don't intentionally keep it in check. From the outset, my friends banned using it on your self, which was basically 3.0 haste and crazy broken.

Well enough.

Then, since we had a whole community style set up where we had multiple characters that'd join up to go on quests as they please, one time we ended up with a party of 3 warblades...

Even w/o using it on each other, the ability to nova strike by having one guy win initiative and then 3 brought-to-you-by-WR Tactics turns was pretty devastating all on its own. (We also viewed the crown of the white ravens as giving you a maneuver non-refreshable 1/encounter, similar to taking martial study as a non-adept, so said warblades actually all had TWO uses each... no idea if that was correct interpretation or not, but...we apologized to the DM afterwards it was so silly...)


If you don't allow WR Tactics on the person using it and prevent more than one or two PCs from obtaining it, it's probably fine. But it can get crazy, is what I'm saying.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That is incorrect. You're only limited by actions, not maneuvers. In one round you can use a swift action boost maneuver, a move-equivalent action maneuver if you have one, a standard action strike maneuver, all the while benefiting from the stance you are currently in.

For example, at high level a Crusader can swift action White Raven Tactics on party member, move action Order Forged From Chaos move action on entire party, standard action attack enemy with White Raven Hammer, while auto-rolling a 11 on that attack in Aura of Perfect Order stance, usually hitting. (I'll never forget that juicy combat round I played. :smallbiggrin: White Raven rocks!)

This is a feature, not a bug. It's only "over-powered" if you think PHB warriors are the only thing melee can be and melee should not get nice things.

Don't forget you can also use a counter if you burn your next turn's swift action :smallamused:

[navar100]

Eh...it's pretty broken if you don't intentionally keep it in check. From the outset, my friends banned using it on your self, which was basically 3.0 haste and crazy broken.

Well enough.

Then, since we had a whole community style set up where we had multiple characters that'd join up to go on quests as they please, one time we ended up with a party of 3 warblades...

Even w/o using it on each other, the ability to nova strike by having one guy win initiative and then 3 brought-to-you-by-WR Tactics turns was pretty devastating all on its own. (We also viewed the crown of the white ravens as giving you a maneuver non-refreshable 1/encounter, similar to taking martial study as a non-adept, so said warblades actually all had TWO uses each... no idea if that was correct interpretation or not, but...we apologized to the DM afterwards it was so silly...)


If you don't allow WR Tactics on the person using it and prevent more than one or two PCs from obtaining it, it's probably fine. But it can get crazy, is what I'm saying.

Teehee. In that same campaign the Fighter player was jealous I could do all sorts of stuff with actions, so I convinced him to multiclass warblade. He too took White Raven Tactics. An old friend returned to the group when he had free time, not knowing of our Tome of Battle experience. He played a ranger. In one particular combat we had a surprise round on some giants. He used Rapid Shot against a giant. My turn. I use White Raven Tactics on him, then move. DM tells him to go again. Shrugging shoulders, he uses Rapid Shot on the same giant. Fighter/warblade goes. He uses White Raven Tactics on the ranger, then moves. DM tells him to go again. Ranger player confused, uses Rapid Shot on on the same giant. First round of combat, ranger goes first. He uses Rapid Shot on the same giant. Giant goes down. The look on the ranger player's face at his bewilderment was terrific.

[Roguenewb]

Don't forget, you can't use a strike as part of a charge. In two levels, you will be able to full attack on a charge, you can't use a manuever as any part of that, and power attack on a charge will be as good as the crusader stuff. Crusader and Lion Charge Barbarian are actually at cross-purposes. The pounce wants you to ubercharge, hitting a bunch of times on a charge, while leaving masses of power attack damage. Crusader wants you to move slowly around the battlefield, trading blows, and wearing out your opponent while they can't get past you.

Barb/Sader seems....less that a dream.

[Finkmilkana]

Don't forget, you can't use a strike as part of a charge.

Only that you can, kinda.
While it's true that it is not possible to use a Strike as part of a Charge, there are plenty of maneuvers that use a charge themself, leading to obscene damage with the "right" reading of the maneuvers.

[ericgrau]

The answer to "broken?" for anything but pun pun/infinite is always "compared to what?" You know your group better than us. If crusader is much stronger than the materials they're drawing from then yes it's broken. If not, then not.

[TopCheese]

Eh...it's pretty broken if you don't intentionally keep it in check. From the outset, my friends banned using it on your self, which was basically 3.0 haste and crazy broken.

Well enough.

Then, since we had a whole community style set up where we had multiple characters that'd join up to go on quests as they please, one time we ended up with a party of 3 warblades...

Even w/o using it on each other, the ability to nova strike by having one guy win initiative and then 3 brought-to-you-by-WR Tactics turns was pretty devastating all on its own. (We also viewed the crown of the white ravens as giving you a maneuver non-refreshable 1/encounter, similar to taking martial study as a non-adept, so said warblades actually all had TWO uses each... no idea if that was correct interpretation or not, but...we apologized to the DM afterwards it was so silly...)


If you don't allow WR Tactics on the person using it and prevent more than one or two PCs from obtaining it, it's probably fine. But it can get crazy, is what I'm saying.

What I meant was the "you are your own ally" rule is what is broken not the actual white raven tactics. From that and some other RAW is where things get diecy.

If WoTC wanted to make some money they would republish all their books (preorder) and make them "The RAI Edition". I bet a lot of broken stuff would get kicked to the curb and ppl would buy them.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I disagree. "You are your own ally" is fine and indeed necessary for many other class features to function decently, like inspire courage.

Stating "an ally other than yourself" would have been fine and it was purely an oversight they missed that.

[Siosilvar]

You haven't heard it because it's wrong.

Is it really so bad that I'm interested in how s/he came to that conclusion? I asked for a citation because I had, as I said, never heard of that before. It might be wrong, but I want to know where the thought came from.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Is it really so bad that I'm interested in how s/he came to that conclusion? I asked for a citation because I had, as I said, never heard of that before. It might be wrong, but I want to know where the thought came from.

I am sure I have seen something similar in a thread about nerfing initiators, not sure if it was here on Giantitp or another board.

[Invader]

Ok so you can use 2 maneuvers in one round given the proper action economy. You can't use a strike on a charge which I might have done on my first turn but it seems like a getting pounce from barb is still viable on a crusader with a 2 hander?

Can someone explain how WRT is broken even if you rule you can use it on yourself? As I understand it, it just allows you to basically give an ally that already went a free turn after your initiative. I don't know of any way to spam it or apply it to more ally at a time so it doesn't seem that bad to me unless I'm missing something.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Can someone explain how WRT is broken even if you rule you can use it on yourself? As I understand it, it just allows you to basically give an ally that already went a free turn after your initiative. I don't know of any way to spam it or apply it to more ally at a time so it doesn't seem that bad to me unless I'm missing something.

Take your turn at initiative 7, White Raven Tactics your friend (formerly initiative 13) to initiative 6. He goes a second time on initiative 6.

First turn after refreshing, delay your initiative to occur immediately after the friend you first used it on (this can be either initiative 6 or initiative 5 in this example, depending on GM interpretation, unless there's some RAW explanation for how delaying affects your actual initiative that I am just not remembering). Then, White Raven Tactics your friend again. They act now act on initiative 5 or 4 (depending on how the delay resolves). Repeat as necessary.

Of course, if you can use it on yourself, you do, then use the extra turn you just got refreshing your maneuvers. Next turn, rinse and repeat.

[Invader]

Take your turn at initiative 7, White Raven Tactics your friend (formerly initiative 13) to initiative 6. He goes a second time on initiative 6.

First turn after refreshing, delay your initiative to occur immediately after the friend you first used it on (this can be either initiative 6 or initiative 5 in this example, depending on GM interpretation, unless there's some RAW explanation for how delaying affects your actual initiative that I am just not remembering). Then, White Raven Tactics your friend again. They act now act on initiative 5 or 4 (depending on how the delay resolves). Repeat as necessary.

Of course, if you can use it on yourself, you do, then use the extra turn you just got refreshing your maneuvers. Next turn, rinse and repeat.

So at most you can still only affect 1 all per cycle of maneuvers. That still doesn't seem all that bad.

[eggs]

Can someone explain how WRT is broken even if you rule you can use it on yourself? As I understand it, it just allows you to basically give an ally that already went a free turn after your initiative. I don't know of any way to spam it or apply it to more ally at a time so it doesn't seem that bad to me unless I'm missing something.
Turns are the most valuable tactical resource. Any extra turns are a huge deal, even if they aren't spammable.

Take an encounter one or more heavy-hitting monsters: give the party Wizard an extra turn before they go, and the odds are you can go from what's probably a party-wipe on the monsters' first action to watching them flail about blindly; give the Rogue an extra turn, and whatever he moved to flank is probably going to wind up dead; give a summoner an extra turn and he's outputting spells as if he had free Twin Spell metamagic.

In the most basic sense, look at a full round's worth of the Crusader's actions: probably a couple hundred damage on a full attack at high levels, with a few status effects tossed in for good measure. White Raven Tactics essentially lets the Crusader take that full round's worth of actions as a swift action boost.

EDIT: And because WRT isn't limited to the Crusader itself, it's essentially "The most valuable thing any party member can do with a full round, done as a swift action."

[demigodus]

Can someone explain how WRT is broken even if you rule you can use it on yourself? As I understand it, it just allows you to basically give an ally that already went a free turn after your initiative. I don't know of any way to spam it or apply it to more ally at a time so it doesn't seem that bad to me unless I'm missing something.

The short and brief of it, is that once you are decently optimized, combat is VERY short. It isn't strange for combat to only last 1 or 2 rounds, or possibly be won by just the surprise round.

In such a case, actions are the most valuable resource; this gives you an extra full round of actions. That might be enough to stop an opponent from getting an extra turn, mitigating a full turn's worth of damage/debuffs/buffs from him.

[Invader]

Take your turn at initiative 7, White Raven Tactics your friend (formerly initiative 13) to initiative 6. He goes a second time on initiative 6.

First turn after refreshing, delay your initiative to occur immediately after the friend you first used it on (this can be either initiative 6 or initiative 5 in this example, depending on GM interpretation, unless there's some RAW explanation for how delaying affects your actual initiative that I am just not remembering). Then, White Raven Tactics your friend again. They act now act on initiative 5 or 4 (depending on how the delay resolves). Repeat as necessary.

Of course, if you can use it on yourself, you do, then use the extra turn you just got refreshing your maneuvers. Next turn, rinse and repeat.


The short and brief of it, is that once you are decently optimized, combat is VERY short. It isn't strange for combat to only last 1 or 2 rounds, or possibly be won by just the surprise round.

In such a case, actions are the most valuable resource; this gives you an extra full round of actions. That might be enough to stop an opponent from getting an extra turn, mitigating a full turn's worth of damage/debuffs/buffs from him.

I get the importance of an extra full round action it just seemed the way people we're talking about it that it was breaking every combat it was used it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

WRT is nice on a crusader, but it's just nasty on a warblade. What's that? I get two turns every round and have all my maneuvers refreshed at the beginning of every round too?

init count 5: warblade initiates WRT amongst the rest of his actions for the turn.

Init count 4: Warblade acts again and uses his swift action to refresh his maneuvers.

Next round: rinse/repeat.

[Eldariel]

So at most you can still only affect 1 all per cycle of maneuvers. That still doesn't seem all that bad.

It's an extra turn for a swift action. That's obscenely powerful. Standard action for swift action is already insanely strong but White Raven Tactics comes with a replacement Swift & a Move on top of it. As a 3rd level maneuver. So...yeah.

[Snowbluff]

Crusader is broken, but not overpowered. Many of it's functions and features can be exploited quite easily. This seems to be caused by lack of back-checking/balancing to see how the class interacted with older books, or even the Tome of Battle.

Examples

Idiot Crusader

d2 Crusader

My Sure-crit Crusader

There are a few more, but I don't know them all. Compare to the Warblade, a contemporary of similar tier, but tricks for it are rare.

[Big Fau]

I get the importance of an extra full round action it just seemed the way people we're talking about it that it was breaking every combat it was used it.

It effectively makes it so the party's Wizard or Cleric gets 2 turns off every round. Giving casters more actions is a bad thing for game balance.