legacy champ/uncanny trickster cheese

[limejuicepowder]

These two classes are often listed as good ways for a hellfire warlock to make his blast do obscene amounts of damage, but here's my confusion:

Where does it say that hellfire warlock continues to advance his hellfire blast?

Both of those classes say "gain class abilities as if you had gained a level in the original class" but there ARE no more levels to take in hellfire warlock after 3. There is no basis to say that IF there were more levels, hellfire blast would continue to improve at the same rate. Look no further then the basic warlock to see an example of that; eldritch blast damage slows down after level 11.

My interpretation of the class advancement ability for legacy champ and uncanny trickster would be this: only classes with additional levels to take, thus giving explicit abilities, can be advanced with these classes. If you run out of levels to take, then no further benefit is given by that portion of the legacy champ/uncanny trickster.

I draw further support for this position from the section on prestige classes and epic levels (sorry I can't tell you exactly were it's from) that says prestige classes with 10 or more levels can be advanced more in the epics (like a rogue 10 assassin 13), but prestige classes with less then 10 levels can't. This is a function of classes with only a few levels gaining and scaling their abilities much faster than normal, thus they don't translate well to further progression.

Am I missing something?

[tyckspoon]

Whenever you use your eldritch blast ability, you can change your eldritch blast into a hellfire blast. A hellfire blast deals your normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level. If your blast hits multiple targets (for example, the eldritch chain or eldritch cone blast shape invocations), each target takes the extra damage. This damage is not fire damage. Hellfire burns hotter than any normal fire, as described in the sidebar on page 119.

Don't care to delve into the rest of the argument- I don't think there's a useful discussion to be had there- but that's the text for advancing Hellfire Blast. It's specifically determined by your Hellfire Warlock level; in order for it not to be advanced by '+1 level of Hellfire Warlock' it would instead have to say "see table for your damage" or something similar.

[limejuicepowder]

Don't care to delve into the rest of the argument- I don't think there's a useful discussion to be had there- but that's the text for advancing Hellfire Blast. It's specifically determined by your Hellfire Warlock level; in order for it not to be advanced by '+1 level of Hellfire Warlock' it would instead have to say "see table for your damage" or something similar.

Reading comprehension FTL. This is me, red-faced, saying yeah, you are totally right xD

On the plus side, now I don't feel like such a cheesemaker using that combo.

[eggs]

How the rule ought to be doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how the rule is.

Right now, you're conflating an argument of whether the Hellfire Warlock does get more than 3 levels progression from those classes [it does] with one of whether it should [this is where things get fuzzy].

Personally, I can't stand LC/UC class-extension and usually houserule it out of my games. But those are explicitly houserules.

This is a case where it's not really unreasonable on a power-basis: if the Warlock is trading out its most powerful class feature and its high-level powers to focus on eldritch blast, it may as well be good at it. I'd prefer the EB-specialization route didn't come from a cookiecutter build of Binder+HFW+UC/LC, but in this case it's only the aesthetic of the cheesy class-extension that's bothersome, not the results.

EDIT:
I think I misunderstood the purpose of this thread. :smallredface:

[Roguenewb]

I feel the exact other way, I feel that there should have been *more* abilities to do this. Think of it this way, how many classes are worth advancing beyond the end of their levels? HFW? Is one that broken? What if I want to advance some weaker class features that would be better with piles more levels? I wanted their to be a 5 level PrC with crappy skills, HD, medium BAB and one crappy save that advanced at all levels, and required a bad feat to enter, just for all those random classes I want to get yet more levels in.

[kardar233]

The only real use I see for this past HFW is extending theurge classes.

I use the Legacy Champion extension all the time for a favourite build.

[limejuicepowder]

I feel the exact other way, I feel that there should have been *more* abilities to do this. Think of it this way, how many classes are worth advancing beyond the end of their levels? HFW? Is one that broken? What if I want to advance some weaker class features that would be better with piles more levels? I wanted their to be a 5 level PrC with crappy skills, HD, medium BAB and one crappy save that advanced at all levels, and required a bad feat to enter, just for all those random classes I want to get yet more levels in.

My opinion on how it ought to be is more or less in line with you, actually. I was just making a rules observation that happened to be completely wrong.

As far as the warlock and hellfire warlock goes, I think something like the hellfire warlock should be built right in to the class; taking damage for greater power, and not just for eldritch blast damage. Applying metamagic feats to invocations by taking damage would be pretty awesome.

[ThiagoMartell]

Actually, the only situation I know where this might arrive at gamebreaking levels is Spellwarp Sniper. The ability to Spellwarp 9th level spells is devious.
For Hellfire Warlock, as has already been mentioned, you actually lose on Imbue Item for that and most will agree that is not acceptable.

[eggs]

I feel the exact other way, I feel that there should have been *more* abilities to do this. Think of it this way, how many classes are worth advancing beyond the end of their levels? HFW?
AbjChamp, War Weaver, Escalation Mage, Ultimate Magus, War Hulk, Recaster, Spellwarp Sniper, Sovereign Speaker and template classes all either turn class level into powerful effects or gain something meaningful by advancing outside their normal frameworks. Some are benign (eg. Avenging Executioner not being crippled by DC scaling, war hulks without skillful weapons); some exacerbate system imbalance (escalation mage or ultimate magus); some just shatter the game (war weaver).

It also undermines most class designs in such a fundamental way (turning 5-10 maximum levels in a prestige class into 13-14) that I really don't expect it to be anticipated or inconsequential in other materials (3rd party, homebrew, etc.) we bring to the table.

[kardar233]

Totally forgot about War Weaver. Algernon of the White Lilies could use Legacy Champion to boost his Tapestry spell level cap, but going far enough might just lose him 9ths.