diplomacy vs undead

[shaga]

Are intelligent undead immune to diplomacy? In other words is diplomacy a mind-affecting effect? If it is the undead is immune but it seems weird to me.

What about intimidate skill vs an undead? The intimidate skill doesn't say its a fear attack, just that if you succeed on your check you make your opponent friendly (or if your tied to demoralize him, you make him shaken) but you do add any bonus to fear on your check to resist an intimidate and if you happen to be immune to fear (like a paladin 3rd lvl+) you can not be intimidate, because of a special note on the intimidate skill.

What is your opinion?

[Piggy Knowles]

Some uses of Diplomacy are mind-affecting, such as the epic usages, but not all of them.

Intimidate explicitly states that enemies immune to fear can't be intimidated in the skill description.

[ericgrau]

Intelligent creatures of any kind aren't "immune" to being talked to in a reasonable fashion and coming to a peaceful agreement. You might rule that undead are immune to being diplomancered, but really you shouldn't let that happen with any creature anyway.

[Roguenewb]

They are correct, you can improve the attitudes of vampires by talking to them. I usually add a penalty to the check, cause Vampires view them as food, and listen less well to them.

[jackattack]

Characters who are immune to fear cannot be affected by the Intimidate skill.

And I think the immunity to fear should only apply to mindless undead, not the ones that can still think, and are therefor still aware of their own mortality.

If the intimidation effect is solely based on a character's ability to bluff and/or threaten an intelligent undead creature, then it should be allowed. It might be very difficult, but it should be allowed.

After all, a character holding a flaming silver sword in one hand and a blessed stake in the other should be intimidating to a vampire, just as a character holding a lich's phylactery should be intimidating to that lich.

[lyko555]

there's actually a feat in the bovd called lichloved it lets you use diplomacy on unintelligent undead.

[Coidzor]

Undead Empathy from Eberron Campaign Setting, p. 61 allows diplomacy on mindless undead.

[shaga]

I cant find anywhere the fact that intelligent undead are immune to fear. I found the "immune to mind-affecting effects" but is intimidation the skill a mind-affecting effect? I thought that meant magic or supernatural/spell-like not just plain threatening.

[JBento]

All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects.

Since undead are immune to mind-affecting, their immune to fear and, therefore, to intimidate.

[jackattack]

Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

Fear is a morale effect.

However, I still think this is a bad rule insofar as it does not account for intelligent undead like vampires and liches. I'm sure the original intent was to prevent players from sending scary monsters running and screaming like little punks. However, it precludes the possibility that characters will ever be powerful enough to affect or intimidate high-end undead creatures, and discourages the DM from roleplaying vampires and liches as anything but super-confident undead lords who never feel the need to back down.

[shaga]

All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects.

Since undead are immune to mind-affecting, their immune to fear and, therefore, to intimidate.

The part about fear being a mind-affecting effect comes from the monster manual page 309 quote about fear (Su or SP). So I am not that sure that plain old fear is a mind-affecting effect.

"Fear (Su or SP): Fear attacks have various effects. ......... All fear attacks are mind-affecting effects"
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"Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)."

You would note that all those are description of spell/magic effects.

The way I see it, since plain diplomacy is NOT a mind-affecting effect, plain intimidate isn't either?

[Zdrak]

And I think the immunity to fear should only apply to mindless undead, not the ones that can still think, and are therefor still aware of their own mortality.

If the intimidation effect is solely based on a character's ability to bluff and/or threaten an intelligent undead creature, then it should be allowed. It might be very difficult, but it should be allowed.

After all, a character holding a flaming silver sword in one hand and a blessed stake in the other should be intimidating to a vampire, just as a character holding a lich's phylactery should be intimidating to that lich.You are treating Undead as if they were Humans with serial numbers filed off. They are not.

The fact undead are immune to Fear effects represents a fundamental difference in mindset between a living creature and an abomination who looks at the veil of death from the other side.

Having said that, a vampire, while fearless, is not stupid. It may make a conscious choice to retreat when faced with credible opposition. They can make the decision to run away - but unlike a meatbag, they won't let dice make this decision for them.

[shaga]

You are treating Undead as if they were Humans with serial numbers filed off. They are not.

The fact undead are immune to Fear effects represents a fundamental difference in mindset between a living creature and an abomination who looks at the veil of death from the other side.

Having said that, a vampire, while fearless, is not stupid. It may make a conscious choice to retreat when faced with credible opposition. They can make the decision to run away - but unlike a meatbag, they won't let dice make this decision for them.

Ok. So when a demon lord of the 9th layer of hell, teleports right next to a 1st lvl wizard necropolitan, and tells him to bow down or be destroyed the 1st lvl wizard doesn't fear for its existence, he just makes a conscious choice to obey.

By the way why doesn't the undead template just say "immune to fear" like it does for poison and every other thing? Instead it says "immune to mind-affecting effects" and lists a bunch of magical effects.

I guess the real question is whether a non magical skill check, such as intimidate is a fear mind-affecting effect or just plain fear.

[Zdrak]

Ok. So when a demon lord of the 9th layer of hell, teleports right next to a 1st lvl wizard necropolitan, and tells him to bow down or be destroyed the 1st lvl wizard doesn't fear for its existence, he just makes a conscious choice to obey.I should first warn you that I'm very bad at determining sarcasm over the net.

If you meant it to "agree" with me in a sarcastic way, then, again, you are off the mark by trying to attribute human emotion to something that's completely inhuman. The Necropolitan, let me remind you, already died once. That changes perspectives a lot. Applying normal human way of thinking to the situation, and appealing to the fact that he should be fearing the demon lord does little.

If you mean to actually agree with me, then, yup, nailed it. The Necropolitan knows no fear, but he knows what's good for him.

[jackattack]

You are treating Undead as if they were Humans with serial numbers filed off. They are not.

The fact undead are immune to Fear effects represents a fundamental difference in mindset between a living creature and an abomination who looks at the veil of death from the other side.

Having said that, a vampire, while fearless, is not stupid. It may make a conscious choice to retreat when faced with credible opposition. They can make the decision to run away - but unlike a meatbag, they won't let dice make this decision for them.

You are treating undead as if they are not afraid of death. They are.

More than many living creatures. This is the defining characteristic of intelligent, self-aware undead. They haven't actually died, and they don't intend to -- that's the point.

Vampires and liches have exactly one goal: avoid death. Of the two, liches are probably more afraid, as all of them became liches because they were that desperate to not die while they were still alive.

Vampires and liches are set apart from the rest of the undead because they are still the people they were before they became undead.

[Snowbluff]

You are treating undead as if they are not afraid of death. They are.

More than many living creatures. This is the defining characteristic of intelligent, self-aware undead. They haven't actually died, and they don't intend to -- that's the point.

Vampires and liches have exactly one goal: avoid death. Of the two, liches are probably more afraid, as all of them became liches because they were that desperate to not die while they were still alive.

Vampires and liches are set apart from the rest of the undead because they are still the people they were before they became undead.

No, it's not that they are not scared, it's that it doesn't compromise their ability to act.

[shaga]

I think that as long as intelligent undead can have emotions, they can be feared, charmed, angered or persuaded through diplomacy, as long as its NOT magical effect but real emotion.

You could argue that being undead, their emotions work so differently that someone trying to influence an undead creature has a penalty but to say they cant feel anything makes them closer to mindless. I can see that penalty being relative to the years a creature is undead. As the years pass by, it forgets the emotions he once had when alive but the moment he looses all emotions, he becomes mindless.

[Piggy Knowles]

I don't think undead can't experience fear; I think they are immune to [Fear] effects. Seemingly minor difference, but an important one.

In the example of how silly it is that a first level necropolitan wizard wouldn't be scared of a demon lord appearing, I think they CAN be scared... but the demon lord can't manipulate their mind with [Fear] effects to change their behavior. Not because the demon lord isn't scary, but because that is a form of mental control, which the necropolitan is immune to.

The same would be true for a third level paladin. He's (probably) not stupid, he knows enough to be afraid of a great demon lord. But he's immune to [Fear] effects, so if the demon lord tries to demoralize him or change his behavior using the Intimidate skill, it simply won't work.

[Snowbluff]

You could argue that being undead, their emotions work so differently that someone trying to influence an undead creature has a penalty but to say they cant feel anything makes them closer to mindless. I can see that penalty being relative to the years a creature is undead. As the years pass by, it forgets the emotions he once had when alive but the moment he looses all emotions, he becomes mindless.

It could be that Undead creature (like a Lich) is not really the creature it once was. The body is dead, and the personality is programmed onto it.

[TuggyNE]

The same would be true for a third level paladin. He's (probably) not stupid, he knows enough to be afraid of a great demon lord. But he's immune to [Fear] effects, so if the demon lord tries to demoralize him or change his behavior using the Intimidate skill, it simply won't work.

This is an excellent comparison, because almost exactly the same conditions apply. I think your explanation of it also works well; as a matter of prudence, a paladin or necropolitan can retreat, negotiate, or whatever, but that is entirely rational, with no direct emotional manipulation by enemies possible.

[JBento]

Regardless, using Intimidate for that purpose is a fear attack (it grants a save), and is therefore a mind-affecting effect, to which undead are explicitly immune.

[Zdrak]

This is an excellent comparison, because almost exactly the same conditions apply. I think your explanation of it also works well; as a matter of prudence, a paladin or necropolitan can retreat, negotiate, or whatever, but that is entirely rational, with no direct emotional manipulation by enemies possible.
Exactly. Like I said, the Necropolitan will decide his behavior in the presence of enemies for himself. He won't let an Intimidate roll, or a saving throw, or whatever other die roll decide his behavior for him.