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View Full Version : (SWSE) Building a character. Am I doing it right?



Chronos Flame
2012-08-26, 02:51 PM
So I just joined a SWSE game and am pretty psyched. I've never played the system before and aside from rolling my stats in front of my DM I don't think we will be spending much time on character generation because it's an existing game with only a couple players coming in. Anyway, I have been building mostly from familiarity with d20 systems in general, but would love to know if I'm missing something that is sort of a give-in in this system like "oh you're a jedi? why don't you have deflect?" and the sort.
The idea I have for this guy is that he is on the run from the sith who were training him. He subscribes to the idea that passion rules power but hates how the sith use it. He will be level 8.

Stats: 17, 15, 14, 14, 12, 6. I did Str6, Dex14, Con14, Int12, Wis15(17), Cha17(19).

Human.

Lvl7 jedi, lvl1? no idea yet but I want to prestige class.

Feats: Force Trainingx4. Skill Focus Use Force. Weapon Finesse. And one more, no idea.

Then is where it gets complicated because this is pretty unique to the system. Talents and Force powers. I have no idea. Looking through I ended up picking these 5 talents (4 from jedi, 1 from whatever class I pick after)
TKSavant, TKProdigy, TKPower, Move Massive Object, and Disciplined Strike.
I think I am somewhat happy with those. They are pretty cool, but even though I don't plan to be a heavy lightsaber fighter it's sort of odd I am missing go-tos for many jedi like deflect. Is that bad?

The last part is odd. As far as powers went, I just went through books until I saw things that looked cool. I have a lot of them, but am I gonna be screwed in a fight having selected the powers I did and being sub-par lightsaber-wise?

Move Object (4), Combustion, Cryokinesis, Detonate, Energy Resistance, Farseeing, Fold Space, Force Blast, Force Disarm, Force Grip, Force Slam, Inertia, Kinetic Combat, Rebuke (2), Negate Energy, Phase.

Some I picked because they sounded cool. Some because they made sense in my head to the concept, such as the ones that would be useful in escaping a sticky situation.

Anyway, sorry, I know that is a lot of info. Just wondering if I run this guy if he will have lots of tricks but no real use, or what. Also, still no idea what to take for my 8th level or my last feat.

Dienekes
2012-08-26, 03:47 PM
Part of why SWSE is so loved is that it's really hard to make a useless character. It's possible, definitely, but it's hard. Just taking things that looked cool is actually a fine way to go about things. Sure you won't be as powerful as some insane builds out there (there's a gunslilnger build out there that can 1-shot Darth Vader, also a cheap jedi build that makes you effectively immortal. For the sake of your GM do not make those builds)

The general rule of thumb for Jedi builds though is to pick Force or Lightsaber and focus a lot on that. You can mix it up (more fun in my opinion), but it's a bit weaker.

Now important thing to note, the Force Training feat is not on the Jedi's feat list. This is deliberate so you can only take it at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, and so on.

If you take it for your Human feat, level 1, level 3, and level 6 you should have: 16 force powers. You have 20. Well actually you should only have 13 since you wouldn't have bumped your Wis up until level 4.

Some other advice Force Adept is arguably better for Force focusing Jedi than the Jedi Knight class which is more lightsaber based. It's arguable because some of the splats really increased the JKs non-lightsaber talents. In any case I believe you qualify for either class.

So for feats, if you're Force focused that gives you a bit of leeway in your feats, basically the only one you really need to have is Skill focus (Use the Force) you might want to find a way to get out of melee, or take some fun ones. It's up to you.

Mando Knight
2012-08-26, 03:55 PM
Now important thing to note, the Force Training feat is not on the Jedi's feat list. This is deliberate so you can only take it at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, and so on.
It's not on anyone's bonus feat list for that reason (no sense in the Noble or Scout getting it if the Force specialist doesn't!).

If you take it for your Human feat, level 1, level 3, and level 6 you should have: 16 force powers. You have 20. Well actually you should only have 13 since you wouldn't have bumped your Wis up until level 4.
Permanent Wisdom modifier increases explicitly grant retroactive Force powers ("Special" under Force Training's description).

As for Block and Deflect, since they work off of your Use the Force check and negate most attacks, they make it much more difficult for a weapon specialist to harm you... unless they're smart about it and have things like rocket launchers and flamethrowers.

Chronos Flame
2012-08-26, 03:57 PM
Good to know it's not a game where you can mess things up too easily. I was afraid of that. Also, correct me if my math is wrong, but wouldn't I have 20? 4 from the talent that gives me an extra one per feat if I take Move Object for every feat. and 4 from each feat (wisdom gain is retroactive?)

And yeah, I was looking at Force adept but it doesn't seem to give much. Assuming I take the prestige-prestige in both cases, it gives a net 3 will def. But really not much else since both have access to force talents still right? Maybe I am missing something.

Dienekes
2012-08-26, 06:31 PM
Good to know it's not a game where you can mess things up too easily. I was afraid of that. Also, correct me if my math is wrong, but wouldn't I have 20? 4 from the talent that gives me an extra one per feat if I take Move Object for every feat. and 4 from each feat (wisdom gain is retroactive?)

And yeah, I was looking at Force adept but it doesn't seem to give much. Assuming I take the prestige-prestige in both cases, it gives a net 3 will def. But really not much else since both have access to force talents still right? Maybe I am missing something.

Well then, yep, I'm dumb.

As to Force Adept, they have their own talent trees, Force Adept Tree, Force Item Tree, Dark Side Devotee Tree, Imperial Inquisitor Tree, Beastwarden Tree, Mystic Tree, and Telepath tree which I believe are all not available for the Jedi Knight prestige class. I'm probably wrong on one or two there, but I'm sure someone will be along to correct me.

If you don't like anything on those lists, then Jedi Knight has the better chasis with more HP and BaB.

Friv
2012-08-26, 06:48 PM
And yeah, I was looking at Force adept but it doesn't seem to give much. Assuming I take the prestige-prestige in both cases, it gives a net 3 will def. But really not much else since both have access to force talents still right? Maybe I am missing something.

You aren't likely to want to take both Jedi Knight and Force Adept; one or the other will do. The advantage to being a Knight is superior BAB and HP, whereas the Adept gets the +2 Will defense.

The issue is that Jedi Knights are warriors, and as warriors their unique talent trees are all lightsaber-based. Your capabilities are much more focused on the Force Powers side of things, which is where the Force Adept's talents shine. You're mostly going to want the Force talents on page 100-101 for your Jedi talents, and the Force Adept talent tree lets you continue to focus on your Use The Force abilities. You can mix between its talents and more Force talents to become an unstoppable telekinetic master.

On the other hand, if you want to be a warrior as well, Ataru would be wonderful for you, acting as a +4 damage boost. If you're going that route, I'd do the following: Level 4 Wisdom +1, Dex +1, Level 8 Cha +1, Dex +1. That gives you a starting score of Str 6, Dex 16, Con 14, Wis 16, Cha 18. You aren't set up to boost Wis and Cha at Level 12, but you have extra attack, damage, and defense, and that's always nice.

*EDIT* And actually, if you want to, you can always take three levels of Adept and two levels of Knight, and then move into the Master-tier prestige classes. You lose one BAB and three HP, gain 2 defense, and get to focus mainly on the Adept talents.

Chronos Flame
2012-08-26, 10:02 PM
Thanks for the awesome advice Friv. A couple more questions. You said The adept talents are good for the kinetics rout, but it seems to be that I'd be just as well off taking generalist Force talents. That's why I am having trouble seeing the use of being an adept at all as opposed to a knight. Aside from 2 (eventual 3 at master level prestige) will there is no real upside. Are the adept talents better than I am seeing them?

And Dienekes, which book are imperial inquisitor, beast warden, and telepath from? I didnt know about those.

As an added bonus, the jedi master seems to require you to take whatever you feel like to get in, while the master-level prestige class for adept requires specifically adept abilities...

Friv
2012-08-27, 01:32 AM
Thanks for the awesome advice Friv. A couple more questions. You said The adept talents are good for the kinetics rout, but it seems to be that I'd be just as well off taking generalist Force talents. That's why I am having trouble seeing the use of being an adept at all as opposed to a knight. Aside from 2 (eventual 3 at master level prestige) will there is no real upside. Are the adept talents better than I am seeing them?

In the core book, I was mainly looking at the talent Force Power Adept, which lets you reroll various force powers and take the better result. This is wildly powerful. If you have Jedi Academy, there's also the very powerful Mystic talent tree, which gives you things like extra hit points, injuring yourself for Force Points, tons of Force points, and the like.


And Dienekes, which book are imperial inquisitor, beast warden, and telepath from? I didnt know about those.

Imperial Inquisitor is from Force Unleashed, and the other two (along with Mystic) are in Jedi Academy.


As an added bonus, the jedi master seems to require you to take whatever you feel like to get in, while the master-level prestige class for adept requires specifically adept abilities...

Fun fact - Jedi Master does not require you to be a Jedi Knight, only a Jedi. It requires a Force Technique, but Adepts get those, too. I would tend to agree that Force Disciple has a pretty restrictive entry requirement for what you get out of it. Serenity is a wildly useful class trait, whereas Prophecy is a bit more variable since it only grants a once per level bonus.

Chronos Flame
2012-08-27, 01:57 AM
Thanks a ton Friv.
Now I have no idea what to do with the poor guy. I've spent all day messing with him and have discovered that I simply don't have enough talents to make him do what I want haha. Current reincarnation looks like he did when I first posted him but...

Decided on Knight. Still not sure, but yeah...

TKSavant, TKProdigy, Block, Deflect, Many Shades of the Force Lighting (The last one is for backstory reasons. Glad I found it because I didn't know how to make that work, even if there are other talents I'd rather have)

And my Force Powers changed a good bit.

So to update my questions I guess. Are Block and Deflect mandatory parts of a jedi? I ask again because from reading through the books they seem to be the best defense there is. Am I wrong? I'd much prefer to have more telekinetic skills and such, but are they that big a deal?

Mando Knight
2012-08-27, 01:40 PM
Many Shades of the Force Lighting (The last one is for backstory reasons. Glad I found it because I didn't know how to make that work, even if there are other talents I'd rather have)
Be sure to clear this one with your GM. In the EU, the only characters who use Force Lightning are Dark or Grey Force users and Master-level Jedi.

So to update my questions I guess. Are Block and Deflect mandatory parts of a jedi? I ask again because from reading through the books they seem to be the best defense there is. Am I wrong? I'd much prefer to have more telekinetic skills and such, but are they that big a deal?
If you don't have a ton of uses of Negate Energy or block/deflect, a Force mage is relatively easily taken down by snipers and firing squads... and there's even a feat (Unstoppable Force) that significantly ramps up the enemy's Fortitude and Will against Force powers, meaning that if they also invest in armor, there is no one best defense to target, especially once you start losing the initial advantage of using skills to attack rather than attack rolls.

Friv
2012-08-27, 03:19 PM
So to update my questions I guess. Are Block and Deflect mandatory parts of a jedi? I ask again because from reading through the books they seem to be the best defense there is. Am I wrong? I'd much prefer to have more telekinetic skills and such, but are they that big a deal?

This is definitely personal opinion, since I don't have extensive experience with these.

Block, you do not need. As a primary Force-power user, you're not likely to be spending a lot of time in lightsaber duels, and that's pretty much the only melee weapons that are worth anyone's time. It's a great talent for duelists, but not so hot for your build.

Deflect... trickier. Deflect is wildly useful at lower levels, especially if you take Skill Focus (Use The Force) - but note that doing that in general before Level 8-10 is just plain mean to your DM. As you gain levels, however, your natural defense rises much more quickly than your Use The Force check, and the chances of Deflect succeeding even on its first attempt drops. (By Level 20, you will be looking at a Reflex of 35+, and a UTF of +26, meaning that any attack that hits you will have a less than 50% chance of being blocked, depending on how well the hit lands). In your case, given how much better your Charisma is than your Dexterity, I would say it's worth taking.

Chronos Flame
2012-08-27, 11:12 PM
And for sure Mando, I will be okaying everything with the DM.

I was at one point considering taking only deflect, especially since aside from obvious uses it serves as a makeshift evasion. I do think I will end up in somewhat close combat though. Many force powers seem to be only range 6 which is melee range basically because one can move. Is there a way to extend the range of force powers? It seems like for the most part the force is pretty close range.

RandomLunatic
2012-08-27, 11:39 PM
Check again-a lot of offensive Force Powers say "Range 6 squares or Line Of Sight", which tends to extend well past six squares.

Chronos Flame
2012-08-28, 12:21 AM
They all seem to say AND line of sight.

RandomLunatic
2012-08-28, 01:02 AM
Not all of them. Move Object definitely says "or", I know that much off the top of my head. So does Force Grip.

Chronos Flame
2012-08-28, 01:20 AM
Oh wow! That's very cool. I didn't notice that!

Alejandro
2012-08-28, 01:45 PM
Not much said about your skills, other than use the Force, and taking a skill focus in it (be sure to check with your GM; some GMs including myself don't let PCs take that skill focus until they are 8th level or higher, for game balance reasons.)

Have you considered making your first class level something other than Jedi? You could have far more trained skills this way, and depending on your campaign and GM style, this may be very beneficial. If you are on the run from the Sith, maybe you need Stealth, Pilot, Deception?

IdleMuse
2012-08-28, 03:59 PM
Wow, that is a lot of copies of Force Training. You do know that they refresh at the end of each combat right? Or, with a minute's quiet rest in between social encounters or whatever. I know it's cool to have a big toolbox of ones that seem useful, but most combats aren't gonna last more than five rounds or so, unless this is a specifically combat-oriented game (like a military squad game or something). Particularly since you have quite a few ways of essentially doing the same thing; damage.

I'd suggest cutting at least one of the copies of Force Training; I know it's somewhat harder to find cool feats than it is cool talents, but continue looking; Jedi can benefit massively from Force Boon, for instance, and going outside core you have many cool options.

It's also worth checking with your GM, as you mentioned you would, that canon-rare force powers are acceptable; I'm looking at fold space and combustion here in particular. If he's not so okay with some of them, then you've got some that are easy to cut!

Talent-wise... Just looking at the ones you mentioned, Telekinetic Savant and Prodigy are alright, although Savant is another reason you don't need so many force powers; you can almost certainly cut your Move Objects to 2 or 3 with Savant giving you an optional extra one. Block isn't so necessary, especially if you have another jedi in the party. Deflect is pretty good unless your dex is super-high anyway (which is isn't).

Alejandro
2012-08-28, 04:39 PM
To back up what IdleMuse said, you probably won't need Force Training more than 2 times, unless you have very specific needs for a large number of unique powers. If you have, say, 8 Force powers, you will rarely if ever run out during a battle, or encounter in which they apply, especially considering as your Wisdom goes up, you'll get more powers.

Chronos Flame
2012-08-28, 08:58 PM
I was considering that, lessening the force trainings, but I don't know. I've reworked my force list so it contains less "boom, blow up" powers, but some of them are there for flavor. And I added a few defensive ones. Because I am not going to be super fight-y I thought maybe an intercept and a couple Negate Energys were better. I dunno. It's now down to...

Move Object (4), Force Lightning (2), Negate Energy (3), Intercept, Energy Resistance, Farseeing, Fold Space, Rebuke (2), Force Disarm, Force Grip, Force Slam, Surge.

I suppose I could get rid of one feat and lose, say, Move Object, Negate, Rebuke, Slam, and something else... I've shifted mostly toward the fact that While I can only be offensive for so many rounds, a lot of that protects me (negate, rebuke, intercept, resist).

And skills? I have Use Force, Endurance, Acrobatics, and perception. I was considering switching dex and int and maybe training Initiative too. I don't know.

I guess part of it too is I have a backstory, and much of it makes sense to me in it. The rarer ones, Lightning and Fold Space, are a part of it if he okays the story, so I guess that is why I am hesitant to drop some of the oddballs.

Say I drop a force training and pick up something like force boon? I wouldn't fall into uselessness I assume? Even being worthless with a lightsaber (which I have basically decided he will be)?

Alejandro
2012-08-28, 09:31 PM
Yeah, that's way, way too many Force powers. The Jedi in the group I GM for (6th level) has 10 Force powers, only one of them two times, everything else is a single use, and she's never run out, ever. She has Force Training 2 times, and does not intend to take it again (she'll learn more powers when she raises her Wisdom.)

The game just doesn't flow that way, unless the GM intentionally sets up a situation where you MUST use a certain power over and over.

Chronos Flame
2012-08-28, 09:39 PM
That seems to be the consensus... I'm gonna switch to three and take force boon for now, and talk to the GM when I see him. I can probably ask about some of the stuff and how he usually runs it.

IdleMuse
2012-08-29, 07:48 AM
I mean, most GMs will be open to the idea of you playing a session or two and then re-evaluating your choices; so if you're really loathe to drop to 2xForce Training, go for 3, have a playtest, then when/if you find that's too many, I'm sure your GM won't be averse to you swapping it out. Especially given how you're new to the system.

You seem to be lacking inspiration for other feats, so here's a list of good ones from the Jedi bonus feat list, assuming you have access outside of core:

- Assured Attack; can probably help your attacky powers. (Rebel Era book)
- Force Readiness; spend FP on Deflect, or any of your reaction powers. (KOTOR)
- Improved Disarm; does apply to Force Disarm (core)
- Instinctive Attack; really amazing if you GM lets it apply to attacky force powers (Unknown Regions)
- Martial Arts I; I know it might seem fairly dull, and not relevant for a character with force powers, but in actual game terms, the amount of use you'll get out of having a mundane attack option stapled to the ends of your arms is surprising. (core)
- Slippery Maneuver (+dodge); very handy if your DM uses a lot of melee brutes in grid combat. (Scum & Villainy)
- Stand Tall; pretty amazing for any character. (Galaxy of Intrigue)
- Unstoppable Force; one of many great feats to think about if you face force users a lot (Clone Wars)

And that's just going down the Jedi bonus list. Out of those, I'd most recommend Instinctive Attack and Force Readiness, they seem like they really play well with your build.