ToB and MoI

[TopCheese]

I'm chatting with a friend who wants a good ToB/MoI build. Although I love both books I've never really multiclassed with them to much. I also have been DMing 4e/5e for the past year so I'm rusty on 3.5.

What my friend wants is...

Crusaser or Warblade multiclassed with a Incarnate or Totemist.

So a couple questions

1: Has anyone created a decent to good build using these two books
2: Are there any traps?
3 Is Incarnum Blade or IronSoul Forgemaster a good Prestige Class? I've never used pretige classes so I'm not sure what to tell him if they can fit with the ToB goodness.
4: Has anyone (by homebrew) created a jade phoenix mage version for incarnum instead or arcane spells, and how did it work out?.

My friend's DM is ok with homebrew if it has been tested.



Thanks for any help :)

[eggs]

Incarnum Blade's terrible, so are Incandescent Champion and Soulborn. EDIT: +Witchborn Binder. That thing is so cool, but just made to fail.
Forgemaster is solid.

I've mixed Warblade and Totemist (focusing on Tiger claw boosts, Diamond Mind/Iron Heart counters and lots of natural attacks) and Crusader and Incarnate/Forgemaster (emphasizing the Shield and tankiness). Both worked very well.

Swordsage and Incarnate always look like they could make a cool skillmonkey, but I've never found a good way to usefully piece them together. EDIT: Umbral Disciple is a useful Swordsage dip though.

[RFLS]

Soulborn/Crusader would be the obvious one. Warblade and totemist would also probably be fairly entertaining.

The Warblade/Totemist would prioritize Con>Str>Int/Dex>Wis>Cha.
The build would probably be Totemist 6/Warblade 1 to start, but I'm not sure how you'd progress from there. An adaptation of Jade Phoenix Mage would be fairly easy- you'd just replace the +1 casting with +1 meldshaping. Personally, I think it would be a fun build to play, but my MoI knowledge is a little lacking, so someone else can probably suggest something better.

Now that I think about it, I'd be careful with adapting the JPM to meldshaping. The point of the caster progression is to progress two separate, non-overlapping abilities, whereas meldshaping and ToB are both melee-focused. You'd be really dang powerful without trying, I think.

[RFLS]

Swordsage and Incarnate always look like they could make a cool skillmonkey, but I can't figure out a way to usefully piece them together.

The best I've got is to ask for a DM fiat on Carmendine Monk- Have swordsage scale off of Int, and then use Totemist instead. That's not exactly the best solution, though.

[eggs]

I'm not sure they need a multiclass PrC - ToB has its advancement mechanic with crossclass levels levels and MoI largely advances by character level (for essentia caps, feat qualifications, etc).

Totemist 2/Warblade 18, for instance, has 9th level maneuvers, can split the Totem bind as easily as a Totemist (both need to eat a feat on it) and can use almost every bind.

And Incarnate 4/Crusader 1/{repeating Forgemaster 2/Crusader 1 sequence} 15 has the heart bind and 7th level maneuvers - hitting the big meldshaping landmark for "good progression" while still having solid initiating and combat abilities.

[Kazyan]

I'm playing a Totemist with Martial Study (Burning Blade) right now, and it's nice to be able to add a few cubes of fire damage when I feel like it. Consider Totemist/Swordsage.

It'll be hard to mess up too badly, honestly, because Incarnum and Tome of Battle both respond favorably to multiclassing.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Soulborn/Crusader would be the obvious one. Warblade and totemist would also probably be fairly entertaining.

Soulborn/anything is not any obvious build, in any situation, if you want meaningful meldshaping.

[Roguenewb]

Tigerclaw/Totemist as has been mentioned is a solid idea. I think you'll have a problem though. Essentia re-assignment is a swift action, thus cutting off your supply of boosts and counters. Totemist focuses on natural attacks. To get the most out of your natural attacks, you need to full attack, which strikes don't work well with....

So, ditching any plan with totemist, leaves us with some incarnate based build option. Incarnate/Crusader has some attraction. But you still have no counters/boosts, so you're essentially playing a warmage (all different colors of damage) with snazzy pants (soulmelds).

If you want a lower power character, than Incarnate/Crusader will probably work for you. Every round you'll be leaving part of your characters power on the side lines, either you Boost Counter or change essentia. I usually find that essentia wants to be changed almost every round, but oh well. Pick mainly passive soulmelds (especially those that are huge on being bound). I'd start with Incarnate 6, then throw Crusader 14 on top of that. Spend your feats during the first 6 levels establishing basic combat proficiency (power attack and such), in the crusader levels, just keep buying more and more of that feats that make you a better meldshaper. It is my impression that if you take Shape Soulmeld on a meldshaper, that soulmeld is shaped in addition to your normal limit of totals that can be shaped. Take Bonus Essentia so fast your head spins. Open some chakras, probably not all of them, save that 18th level feat for the highest you can buy. So, you're basically in a prestige class that reads "you never get any feats, but you can dual advance meldshaping and initiating". Thankfully, initiating is like a load of feats in your class development.

Overall, this is a rough place to live. If you have any feats left, you should buy any random things that boost your essentia total. And you are an Azurin, end of story.

[RFLS]

Soulborn/anything is not any obvious build, in any situation, if you want meaningful meldshaping.


obvious

I do not think it means what you think it means. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk)It's definitely obvious, they're very similarly intended classes.


Soulborn/anything is not any viable build, in any situation, if you want meaningful meldshaping.

Fixed it for you. :smalltongue:

[Glimbur]

I haven't needed to change essentia every round. It depends on what melds you have have shaped and what you are fighting.

[KillianHawkeye]

I came up with a build that I haven't had a chance to try yet.

Incarnate 2/Crusader 3/Ironsoul Forgemaster 10/Deepstone Sentinel 5

It's obviously more heavy on the meldshaping than martial maneuvers side of things, but it should be pretty tanky and extremely dwarfy.

[eggs]

Tigerclaw/Totemist as has been mentioned is a solid idea. I think you'll have a problem though. Essentia re-assignment is a swift action, thus cutting off your supply of boosts and counters. Totemist focuses on natural attacks. To get the most out of your natural attacks, you need to full attack, which strikes don't work well with....
This is only a problem if you spend every round fiddling with essentia. With only a couple Totemist levels/essentia, there's not much to be gained by spending multiple actions pushing them around.

[Psyren]

Your best bet with Swordsage/Incarnate is for Incarnum to shore up your skillmonkeying. Swordsages miss key skills like Search, Disable Device and Sleight of Hand - all of which can be used untrained with the right soulmelds. As your Dex will likely be high, you'll do a pretty good job just by putting some essentia into skillmelds like Theft Gloves. You can even get Trapfinding this way.


I do not think it means what you think it means. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk)It's definitely obvious, they're very similarly intended classes.

"Intent, yeah, that and a silver piece will get you a hunk of cheese." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)

Multiclassing Soulborn is a waste of time. If you want Incarnum on your Crusader, either multiclass with one of the other two, or stick to Incarnum feats.

[RFLS]

Your best bet with Swordsage/Incarnate is for Incarnum to shore up your skillmonkeying. Swordsages miss key skills like Search, Disable Device and Sleight of Hand - all of which can be used untrained with the right soulmelds. As your Dex will likely be high, you'll do a pretty good job just by putting some essentia into skillmelds like Theft Gloves. You can even get Trapfinding this way.



"Intent, yeah, that and a silver piece will get you a hunk of cheese." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)

Multiclassing Soulborn is a waste of time. If you want Incarnum on your Crusader, either multiclass with one of the other two, or stick to Incarnum feats.

My point was that you shouldn't confuse "obvious" with "viable." I understand that you think Soulborn is a waste of time. That does not make it less obvious on a cursory read-through.

[Coidzor]

Just because it's obvious doesn't mean it should be recommended.

[Psyren]

My point was that you shouldn't confuse "obvious" with "viable." I understand that you think Soulborn is a waste of time. That does not make it less obvious on a cursory read-through.

So in other words, it's obvious if you know next to nothing about Incarnum. While true, that does make your suggestion of such an ineffective combo rather disingenuous (assuming you DO have that knowledge.)

[RFLS]

Just because it's obvious doesn't mean it should be recommended.

I don't think I ever actually recommended it. I apologize; it did look like a recommendation. I'm...well, pretty dang literal with my wording. Which may be a mistake on the internet, where you have to color code your sarcasm (I wasn't being sarcastic, for the record).


So in other words, it's obvious if you know next to nothing about Incarnum. While true, that does make your suggestion of such an ineffective combo rather disingenuous (assuming you DO have that knowledge.)

I've read MoI exactly...once, as of the start of this conversation. So yeah, not that familiar with it. Again, on the off chance you'll listen.... it's the obvious one. On a closer reading of the class, sure, it's not viable.


For the original post- It looks like a few levels of Totemist, followed up by some Warblade is a good way to go. If he's looking to progress both, eggs made a good suggestion with his feat progression, or you could do as I suggested and swap the JPM spellcasting for meldshaping. Either way, I would also recommend Bloodclaw Master if he's focused on natural attacks/TWF-ing. Any way you slice it, I think this is going to be a VERY feat-starved build.

[Essence_of_War]

Incarnum and YOU: A Reference Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215723)

Shneekey has done most of the leg work of evaluating a number of options including various PrCs.

There was an Iron Chef Optimization Challenge involving the Incandescent Champion to give you some ideas if you REALLY want to play with it:
Iron Chef Incandescent Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194518)

As other folks have mentioned, the best interaction is probably Incarnate + Crusader. Preferably on a dwarf. Preferably with ISFM thrown into the mix. I'd consider picking up Shape Soulmeld to steal Mauling Gauntlets off the Soulborn list if you're planning to do any lockdown type stuff.

Totemist is really good at getting natural attacks. The Warblade and Swordsage have some interesting Tiger Claw and White Raven maneuvers that can act as "force multipliers" for natural attacks. So yes, Totemist 2/ Warblade 18 is totally viable. Just be prepared to spend a feat on Bonus Essentia and possibly Expanded Soulmeld Capacity at some point.

Both Warblade and Swordsage also have the added benefit of allowing you to cover your weak will save with maneuvers instead of having to spend feats on Endurance + Steadfast Determination.

[Psyren]

Again, on the off chance you'll listen.... it's the obvious one. On a closer reading of the class, sure, it's not viable.

I hear you just fine - but giving bad advice, getting called on it, then taking refuge behind "I'm right on a technicality even if the advice is terrible!" is hardly useful to the discussion.

[RFLS]

I hear you just fine - but giving bad advice, getting called on it, then taking refuge behind "I'm right on a technicality even if the advice is terrible!" is hardly useful to the discussion.

I'm right because I said what I meant and I meant what I said...I can't help it that you either deliberately (doubtful) or accidentally misinterpreted what I said, and then, when I explained in a clearer fashion what I meant, continued to deliberately misunderstand my meaning and intent.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm right because I said what I meant and I meant what I said...I can't help it that you either deliberately (doubtful) or accidentally misinterpreted what I said, and then, when I explained in a clearer fashion what I meant, continued to deliberately misunderstand my meaning and intent.

I, the absolute Grammar Nazi who often says "I can do that" when someone asks "can you [let the dog in/close the door/etc.]?", thought you were suggesting it.

[RFLS]

I apologize; it did look like a recommendation. I'm...well, pretty dang literal with my wording. Which may be a mistake on the internet, where you have to color code your sarcasm (I wasn't being sarcastic, for the record).

Can we please get back to the topic? -.- We've established that it looked like I made a terrible recommendation. I was just telling Psyren to back off after I explained what I actually meant.

[TopCheese]

So it seems that my friend has chosen to go the route of Incarnate/Swordsage.

Thanks for your help :)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The thing about ToB and MoI is that both have abilities that you need more levels in to get better stuff from, and there is no ToB/MoI PrC (although I smell a homebrew class or three coming on), however each class can be set up so that they are more multiclass friendly. MoI classes get essentia cap increases based on character level, and ToB classes continue 1/2 IL progression even with MoI classes.

Incarnate/Swordsage can certainly be made to work, although it'll be a bit of effort.

If you are going Scout/Skillmonkey role, I'd suggest three levels in Umbral Disciple. It basically gives you a permanent 20% concealment miss chance and Hide In Plain Sight. It'll also net you some sneak attack dice, which works very nicely with HiPS and Concealment modifiers. Don't go any further, it won't be worth it.

[Fouredged Sword]

I once played a crusader 1 / totemist 2 with astral vembraces (sp?), stone power, grallion claws as a totem bind, and the healing stance.

I just stood there and attack. I was the toughest 3rd level character I had ever seen. Unless you could deal more than 10->15 damage you could be completely ignored. DR 4 and then the once a turn crusader absorbing 5 hp of damage to then dump into the stone bones temp HP the next round. If you did manage to deal damage through that he turned around and healed himself with each strike :smalleek:

Ignore him and he tears into the softest spot he can find and heals someone else.

[danzibr]

To be fair, from a noob's eyes Soulbourn and PrC's similar in flavor look like they'd go pretty well with melee classes.

[eggs]

Most Soulborns achieve the Paladin's capstone by level 6! It is truly the martialest of classes.
<_<

[Coidzor]

To be fair, from a noob's eyes Soulbourn and PrC's similar in flavor look like they'd go pretty well with melee classes.

Well, he did ask if there were any traps in the OP, I suppose.