Maximum Range Archery - New record distance!

[Psyborg]

I realize this topic has been done to death; I've made a few posts on it myself in years past. However, A) it's been a while since I've seen it, and B) I think I figured out how to beat the previous record-holder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13467988&postcount=14) for longest-ranged archery:

Background info:
The key here is the Eagle's Cry Bow from Dragon Magazine #326, page 77. Leaving out description and fluff, here's the rules text:An Eagle's Cry Bow is a +5 composite longbow (+4 Strength bonus) with double the range increment of a normal composite longbow (220') and a maximum range of twenty range increments (each range increment beyond the first still incurs the normal -2 penalty). Whenever a user fires an Eagle's Cry Bow, it lets out a cry...All elves within 30 feet of the bow who can hear are affected as if by a 15th-level bard's inspire courage ability...for that round and for the following 5 rounds.
Strong transmutation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Far Shot, true strike, creator must be an elf; price 73,800gp; weight 3lb.

I don't believe making an "Eagle's Cry Greatbow" is justifiable; the bow's enchantment is strongly elf-themed, and greatbows are not an elven racial weapon. However, I see no reason why such a bow couldn't be made out of dragonbone, or why it couldn't have the sizing (MIC 43, +5,000gp) property added to it. Since the Eagle's Cry enchantment requires a different spell (true strike) from the distance enchantment (clairaudience/clairvoyance), I believe they could also stack (with the usual rules on additive stacking of multipliers).*

The Eagle's Cry bow lets us drop the previously-mandatory Cragtop Archer levels and accompanying Goliath race. There are also two other things that I'm relying on to best this record:

Firstly, Flight Arrows (Dragon #349, pg 22) have 125% normal range, which is superior to the +25' of Kerrenderit Arrows.

Secondly, Quori Embedded Shards (ECS 263-264, MoE 115-116) can be implanted in Kalashtar and Inspired characters, maximum one per manifester level, costing one permanent hit point each. The one we're interested in is the Power Link shard:Activation: You call upon the power of this shard as a free action while manifesting a psionic power, up to three times per day. If you have multiple embedded power link shards, you can draw from any number of them with a single action.
Effect: When you draw upon a power link, the power you manifest is augmented by 2 power points (beyond any augmentation you provide from your own power point reserve). This augmentation can result in more power points invested in the power than you have levels. Each additional implanted power link shard you draw on increases the augmentation by an additional 2 power points.

Kalashtar Wilder 16/Deepwood Sniper 4
Relevant Feats: Expanded Knowledge(Extend Range), Practiced Manifester, Far Shot, Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige, Practiced Binder.

Magic Items:
dragonbone sizing eagle's cry bow of distance Dr326+Drac+MIC+DMG
scroll of Giant Size [CL19] (CArc)
scroll/wand of Accuracy (CArc)
scroll/wand of Hawkeye (SpC)
scroll/wand of Wind Tunnel (SpC)
scroll/wand of Guided Shot (SpC, optional- recommended)
strongarm bracers (MIC)
20x Power Link quori embedded shard (MoE)

The computations:

Base weapon:
Composite Longbow (110ft) + dragonbone (+20ft) = 130ft
Light Arrows: x1.25
Size increases: Large weapon (usable at Medium size with strongarm bracers) = 1 size increase; giant size at CL19 = 4 size increases (for a Medium character, which we are): total 5 size increases. Each size increase is a x1.25 multiplier. Rolled in with the arrows for convenience, that gets us:
130 ft x (1.25 ^ 6) = 130 ft x ~3.815 = ~495.91 ft.

Multipliers:
Multipliers:
x1
x1 eagle's cry bow
x1 ...of Distance
x½ Far Shot
x1 Scroll of Accuracy
x½ Scroll of Hawkeye
x1 Scroll of Wind Tunnel
x17 Extend Range @ 65 power points (manifester level 20 + Wild Surge 5 + Power Link shards 40)
= x23 = ~11405.94 ft

+40 ft (Deepwood Sniper 4)
=11,445.94 ft (range increment is well over two miles)

Maximum range:
20 range increments (eagle's cry bow)
11,445.94 ft x 20 = ~228,118.9 ft = ~43.2 miles =about 237% of the old record

Notes: The vestige feats are purely for convenience; Malphas' birds' eye viewing ability is an easy way to get vision of targets that far away.
You will need a good Use Magic Device check for the scrolls.
The sizing enchant would be unnecessary if the bow were made Large in the first place, but I felt this would be inappropriate for an elf-specific bow.
A simple improvement to this build would be finding a way to get Powerful Build from a +1, +2, or +3LA template, allowing the level adjustment to be bought off by level 20. Any suggestions?

*For those curious regarding the greatbow and distance-stacking assumptions:
Switching to a greatbow adds ~1754.8' to the range increment (to a new total of ~13,200.71') and ~35,095.21' to the maximum range (to ~263,214.11' or ~49.85 miles)
Disallowing the stacking of distance and [i]eagle's cry cuts the range increment to ~10,910.03' (loss of ~495.91') and the maximum range to ~218,200.68' or ~41.33 miles (loss of ~9,918' or ~1.88 miles).
In response to Knaight's comment: If the eagle's cry bow has to be used exactly as-is rather than applied as a property, the bonus range from Dragonbone is lost, and the stacking order is somewhat altered: the bow is treated as having a base range increment of 220', rather than being doubled in the second set of multipliers. Also, we lose the ability to use a bow one size larger than the character, as the "magic items resize to fit user" rule only applies to magic clothing and jewelry per DMG pg.213. It does still get the size increases from the Giant Size spell, as a part of the character's equipment. Finally, this makes the use of the distance enchant clearly legal, though it will have to be moved to the ammunition (now +1 flight arrows of distance). The result:
--Base increment 220ft
--Mundane properties: flight arrows + 4 size increases (down from 5) = *1.25^5 = 671 ft (rounding off the decimal).
--Magic: One doubling is lost, dropping the multiplier from x23 to x22 = 14,762 ft, +40 from Deepwood Sniper = 14,802 ft range increment.
--Still twenty range increments max range, so [B]296,040 ft, or 56.07 miles.
...Okay, not the result I was expecting. Pretty sweet though.

[Knaight]

The Eagle's Cry Bow is a specific magic item, and as such can't be applied as a property - it has a range increment of double a normal composite long bow, and there is no boosting that with Dragonbone and similar. Increasing range through size increase is less dubious, as it does explicitly state that you get double the normal range where the specific range of 220 isn't there, added to that is that it will scale with people and the existence of large magic items is already assumed to some degree, removing the need for sizing.

Also, D&D rounding procedures appear to have been ignored, and those would also lower this. Between those two major sticking points, this doesn't exceed the previous record by quite as much.

[Psyborg]

The Eagle's Cry Bow is a specific magic item, and as such can't be applied as a property - it has a range increment of double a normal composite long bow, and there is no boosting that with Dragonbone and similar. Increasing range through size increase is less dubious, as it does explicitly state that you get double the normal range where the specific range of 220 isn't there, added to that is that it will scale with people and the existence of large magic items is already assumed to some degree, removing the need for sizing.

Also, D&D rounding procedures appear to have been ignored, and those would also lower this. Between those two major sticking points, this doesn't exceed the previous record by quite as much.

Added a third alternate case where the eagle's cry bow is treated as a specific item rather than a property. Guess what? Your interpretation makes it even MORE powerful, as the base, pre-multiplier increment is much higher.

[Snowbluff]

Wouldn't Cragtop Archer (RoS) do better than Deepwood Sniper? It gives another 5 range increments at level 3.Maybe you could combine them?

[Snowbluff]

I realize this topic has been done to death; I've made a few posts on it myself in years past. However, A) it's been a while since I've seen it, and B) I think I figured out how to beat the previous record-holder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13467988&postcount=14) for longest-ranged archery:

Background info:
The key here is the Eagle's Cry Bow from Dragon Magazine #326, page 77. Leaving out description and fluff, here's the rules text:An Eagle's Cry Bow is a +5 composite longbow (+4 Strength bonus) with double the range increment of a normal composite longbow (220') and a maximum range of twenty range increments (each range increment beyond the first still incurs the normal -2 penalty). Whenever a user fires an Eagle's Cry Bow, it lets out a cry...All elves within 30 feet of the bow who can hear are affected as if by a 15th-level bard's inspire courage ability...for that round and for the following 5 rounds.
Strong transmutation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Far Shot, true strike, creator must be an elf; price 73,800gp; weight 3lb.

I don't believe making an "Eagle's Cry Greatbow" is justifiable; the bow's enchantment is strongly elf-themed, and greatbows are not an elven racial weapon. However, I see no reason why such a bow couldn't be made out of dragonbone, or why it couldn't have the sizing (MIC 43, +5,000gp) property added to it. Since the Eagle's Cry enchantment requires a different spell (true strike) from the distance enchantment (clairaudience/clairvoyance), I believe they could also stack (with the usual rules on additive stacking of multipliers).*

The Eagle's Cry bow lets us drop the previously-mandatory Cragtop Archer levels and accompanying Goliath race. There are also two other things that I'm relying on to best this record:

Firstly, Flight Arrows (Dragon #349, pg 22) have 125% normal range, which is superior to the +25' of Kerrenderit Arrows.
[/spoiler]

Kalashtar Wilder 14/Cragtop Archer3/Stoneblessed 3
Relevant Feats: Expanded Knowledge(Extend Range), Practiced Manifester, Far Shot, Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige, Practiced Binder.

Magic Items:
dragonbone sizing eagle's cry bow of distance Dr326+Drac+MIC+DMG
scroll of Giant Size [CL19] (CArc)
scroll/wand of Accuracy (CArc)
scroll/wand of Hawkeye (SpC)
scroll/wand of Wind Tunnel (SpC)
scroll/wand of Guided Shot (SpC, optional- recommended)
strongarm bracers (MIC)
20x Power Link quori embedded shard (MoE)

The computations:

Base weapon:
Composite Longbow (110ft) + dragonbone (+20ft) = 130ft
Light Arrows: x1.25
Size increases: Large weapon (usable at Medium size with strongarm bracers) = 1 size increase; giant size at CL19 = 4 size increases (for a Medium character, which we are): total 5 size increases. Each size increase is a x1.25 multiplier. Rolled in with the arrows for convenience, that gets us:
130 ft x (1.25 ^ 6) = 130 ft x ~3.815 = ~495.91 ft.

Multipliers:
Multipliers:
x1
x1 eagle's cry bow
x1 ...of Distance
x½ Far Shot
x1 Scroll of Accuracy
x½ Scroll of Hawkeye
x1 Scroll of Wind Tunnel
x17 Extend Range @ 65 power points (manifester level 20 + Wild Surge 5 + Power Link shards 40)
= x23 = ~11405.94 ft

+40 ft (Deepwood Sniper 4)
[B]=11,445.94 ft (range increment is well over two miles)

Maximum range:
20 range increments (eagle's cry bow)
11,445.94 ft x 20 = ~228,118.9 ft = ~43.2 miles =about 237% of the old record

Notes: The vestige feats are purely for convenience; Malphas' [I]birds' eye viewing ability is an easy way to get vision of targets that far away.
You will need a good Use Magic Device check for the scrolls.
The sizing enchant would be unnecessary if the bow were made Large in the first place, but I felt this would be inappropriate for an elf-specific bow.
A simple improvement to this build would be finding a way to get Powerful Build from a +1, +2, or +3LA template, allowing the level adjustment to be bought off by level 20. Any suggestions?




This should get more range. You lose 2 ML and your 5th wild surge (~15 ML in augmentation if I am reading these crystally thingies right, otherwised ditch Kalashtar if that isn't the case). Nice to know I'll hold this record until you realized another way for you to have more ML.

Craptop Archer increases you max Increments from 10 to 15. At 4 you'll be able to actually hit something at that range (as a full action, shoot a single arrow, ignoring increment penalties).

[Darrin]

A dragonwrought kobold with Dex 25 and 20 ranks of Spot can get Distant Shot [Epic]. Shoot the sun: range is now 92,955,807 miles. Actually, pick some other more distant star: arrow travels several thousand light years in 6 seconds, which is way past FTL, it gains infinite mass, and the entire planet gets sucked into a black hole full of catgirls.

[Psyborg]

Wouldn't Cragtop Archer (RoS) do better than Deepwood Sniper? It gives another 5 range increments at level 3.Maybe you could combine them?

This should get more range. You lose 2 ML and your 5th wild surge (~15 ML in augmentation if I am reading these crystally thingies right, otherwised ditch Kalashtar if that isn't the case). Nice to know I'll hold this record until you realized another way for you to have more ML.

Craptop Archer increases you max Increments from 10 to 15. At 4 you'll be able to actually hit something at that range (as a full action, shoot a single arrow, ignoring increment penalties).

Eagle's Cry Bow already lets me shoot 20 range increments, and it doesn't stack with Cragtop Archer (both bonuses are phrased as "set X to Y" rather than "increase X by +Y").

A scroll/wand/potion of Guided Shot lets me ignore range penalties within my maximum range.


A dragonwrought kobold with Dex 25 and 20 ranks of Spot can get Distant Shot [Epic]. Shoot the sun: range is now 92,955,807 miles. Actually, pick some other more distant star: arrow travels several thousand light years in 6 seconds, which is way past FTL, it gains infinite mass, and the entire planet gets sucked into a black hole full of catgirls.

Granted. The kobold/distant shot trick is well known; I'm simply trying for the non-infinite record here :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

Eagle's Cry Bow already lets me shoot 20 range increments, and it doesn't stack with Cragtop Archer (both bonuses are phrased as "set X to Y" rather than "increase X by +Y").


Ph, okay. I'll look into using a different bow then.

In other new, why are we using Deepwood Sniper? 40' is not very much. There has to be a better way to do this...

If you can get 2 ML out of each level somehow, I think that will serve you better. (Again, if I am reading this crystal thingy correctly)

[Talya]

Is there any way to change this eagle's cry bow into a composite Greatbow? (maybe not, with it being a specific item.) I'm going by memory, but I believe the composite Greatbow has a 130' range increment, rather than the 110' of the composite longbow.

[Psyborg]

Ph, okay. I'll look into using a different bow then.

In other new, why are we using Deepwood Sniper? 40' is not very much. There has to be a better way to do this...

If you can get 2 ML out of each level somehow, I think that will serve you better. (Again, if I am reading this crystal thingy correctly)

You are reading the crystal thingy correctly; however, thanks to Practiced Manifester, we can take up to four non-manifesting class levels without hurting our manifester level (and- except for Wild Surge and Overchannel, which explicitly don't stack- there's no way to get manifester level > HD without 3rd-party material). So we still have full manifester level with 16 Wilder levels; the only thing we'd gain from additional ones is increasing Wild Surge from +5 to +6, which isn't enough to get an extra multiplier from Extend Range and so is useless.

With four non-Wilder levels to play with, and Cragtop Archer rendered irrelevant by the bow, I'm not aware of any way to get more than 40' of extra range out of those levels. If you do know of one- or of a way to get any range without that pesky "after all multipliers" clause- I'd be thrilled to hear it.


Is there any way to change this eagle's cry bow into a composite Greatbow? (maybe not, with it being a specific item.) I'm going by memory, but I believe the composite Greatbow has a 130' range increment, rather than the 110' of the composite longbow.

There are three interpretations:
1. Eagle's Cry Bow is an elf-specific enchantment, and thus can only be applied to elf racial weapons, which a greatbow is not (a dragonbone composite longbow, however, is). This is the assumption I used in the first set of calculations, resulting in the 43.2-mile figure.
2. Eagle's Cry Bow can be made as a greatbow. This is the first alternate calculation, and gets us a 49.85-mile range.
3. Eagle's Cry Bow is a specific and unalterable item. This is the third alternate calculation, and results in a 56.07-mile range. (It does cost a few multipliers, but it uses the 220' figure as the base range increment, which is a substantial pre-multiplier increase.)

MAJOR EDIT:
New discovery: the Psiotheurgist feat (Dragon #349) links a school of magic and a psionic discipline and gives CL = CL + ML with that school of magic and ML = CL + ML with that psionic discipline.

Cerebremancer/Legacy Champion cheese build incoming.

[Anthrowhale]

You can boost ML to high values as a circle mage using Mental Pinnacle. There are limitations, but perhaps there is a way around them?

[Psyborg]

Kaiser Wilhelm Geschutz - Silverbrow Human (Major Draconic Bloodline) Wizard 1 / Spellthief 1 (Trickster ACF) / Ardent 2 (Substitute Powers ACF) / Chameleon 1 / Cerebremancer 10 / Abjurant Champion 5.

Level 1: Wizard 1
Flaws x2 (pick any that don't affect spellcasting)
Trait: Spellgifted (+1 CL w/evocation; -1 w/all others)
Feat (HD): Able Learner
Feat (human): Precocious Apprentice (
Feat (flaw): Education (all Knowledge skills are always class skills) (Eb pg52)
Feat (flaw): Apprentice (criminal) (add Bluff to class skills) (DMG2)
Put your highest stat in Intelligence; ensure you have minimum 12 Wisdom.
(2+Int)x4 skill points.
Throw in whatever ACFs you want. Definitely ditch the familiar since it won't be getting advanced ever again; there's all kinds of stuff you can trade it for :D

Level 2: Spellthief 1
Alternate Class Feature: Trickster (Dragon Magazine #353, pg. 85)
Lose 2 skill points/lvl, a bunch of class skills we don't care about because we have the important ones perma-added, trapfinding, and sneak attack advancement beyond the first die.
Gain: Spellcasting (spells per day, spells known, caster level) as a bard; access to the Bard spell list.
4+Int skill points.

Level pre-3: Bloodline
Gain nothing except the level.

3rd class level: Ardent 1
Feat (HD): Practiced Manifester.
You now have access to 2nd-level powers. Take the Conflict mantle and use the Substitute Powers ACF to add Extend Range to it.

4th class level: Ardent 2
Thanks to the ghost-level from the bloodline, we can have up to 8 ranks in skills (It doesn't grant skill points, but it does count for skill maximums). Ensure that we have 8 ranks in Disguise and Bluff.

5th class level: Chameleon 1
Nothing special to say here.

Level pre-6: Another ghost bloodline level.

6th-15th class levels: Cerebremancer 10 (ghost Bloodline level pre-12)
Qualify with Wizard. Advance Chameleon.
Feats:
6- Combat Casting
9- Psiotheurge
12- Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard)
15- Practiced Spellcaster (Spellthief)

16th-20th class levels: Abjurant Champion 5
Qualify with Wizard. Advance Chameleon four times and Spellthief once. Use Martial Arcanist on Spellthief.
Feat (18HD)- Master Spellthief

Magic items:
eagle's cry bow Dr326
+1 flight arrows of distance
scroll of Giant Size [CL19] (CArc)
scroll/wand of Accuracy (CArc)
scroll/wand of Hawkeye (SpC)
scroll/wand of Wind Tunnel (SpC)
scroll/wand of Guided Shot (SpC, optional- recommended)
scroll/wand of Adept Spirit (MoIncarnum)
orange ioun stone (DMG)
karma bead (DMG)
horizon goggles (CMage) (free Far Shot feat)
UMD-boosters of choice
20x Power Link quori embedded shard (MoE) [YUP, UMD'ING THESE IS CHEESY AS HELL, BUT IT'S LEGAL AND WE'RE DOING IT!]

MANIFESTER LEVEL CALCULATIONS:
Base ML = Ardent 2 + Cerebremancer 10 + Practiced Manifester 4 + bloodline levels 3 + orange ioun stone 1 + karma bead 4 = 24
[Note: 4 of this is temporary, hence only 20 Power Link shards are embeddded]
Wizard CL w/evocation = Wizard 1 + bloodline levels 3 + Practiced Spellcaster 4 + Adept Spirit 1 + orange ioun stone 1 + Spellgifted 1 + karma bead 4 = 19
Spellthief CL = BAB +16 = 16, unless it would otherwise be higher (it wouldn't).
Chameleon CL w/evocation = (Chameleon 1 + Cerebremancer 10 + bloodline levels 3 = 14) x2 = 28 + Adept Spirit 1 + orange ioun stone 1 + Spellgifted 1 + karma bead 4 = 30

Apply Master Spellthief: spellthief + all arcane caster levels stack. Result: Arcane caster level with evocation spells of 65.

Apply Psiotheurgist and manifest Extend Range: ML = ML + CL = 24 + 65 = 89.

Extend range is manifested at 129pp (89 manifester level + 40 from Power Link shards), giving a total range multiplier of x34 (or +33 to the additive multiplier).

The rest of the calculations are just as before. Assuming the bow to be an unalterable specific item:

Base range increment: 220 ft
4 size increases + flight arrows: x(1.25^5) = 671 ft.

Multipliers:
x1
x1 eagle's cry bow
x1 ...of Distance
x½ Far Shot
x1 Scroll of Accuracy
x½ Scroll of Hawkeye
x1 Scroll of Wind Tunnel
x33 Extend Range @ 129 power points
= x39 = 26,169 ft range increment. About five miles.

Finally:
Maximum range = 20 range increments.
[b]26,169 x 20 = 523,380 ft = ~99.125 miles.

*bows*

[Ashtagon]

Fundamental mistake alert: Most bonuses to range take the form of "range increment increases by one-half ", not "multiply range by 1.5". Which means that two of those would add for a total of ×2, not multiply for a total of ×2.25.

[Psyborg]

Fundamental mistake alert: Most bonuses to range take the form of "range increment increases by one-half ", not "multiply range by 1.5". Which means that two of those would add for a total of ×2, not multiply for a total of ×2.25.

And all multipliers were applied additively, not multiplicatively. The only exceptions are the four size increases, because the range expressly increases by 25% for each size increase, relative to the size below it. (The final x1.25 mundane modifier comes from the flight arrows, before the giant stack of magic multipliers, and it lumped in with them purely for convenience in computation.)

So, fundamental mistake averted.

Unless I missed one in particular? :smallfrown:

[VGLordR2]

*bows*

I see what you did there.

[Ashtagon]

Where are the rules for weapon size and range? I can find it in ch1 of Arms and Equipment Guide (3.0e), but I can't find an updated version, and it's such a core concept that it really would have been copied over somehow to 3.5e.

[Knaight]

I seem to remember it being buried in the MM somewhere.

[Ashtagon]

I seem to remember it being buried in the MM somewhere.

Nope, not there. DMG pp28-29 would be a logical place for it to be mentioned too, but it's not there either. Rules Compendium p116 and p150-152 says nothing on this either.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Even if Cragtop Archer's Arcing Shot doesn't stack with this bow, isn't the PrC still useful for the Horizon Shot (shoot once and ignore range increment penalties completely)?

Actually hitting with your arrow is nice, too.

[Arcanist]

A dragonwrought kobold with Dex 25 and 20 ranks of Spot can get Distant Shot [Epic]. Shoot the sun: range is now 92,955,807 miles. Actually, pick some other more distant star: arrow travels several thousand light years in 6 seconds, which is way past FTL, it gains infinite mass, and the entire planet gets sucked into a black hole full of catgirls.

How is the DWK qualifying for an Epic feat if this challenge has to be done pre-epic? :smallconfused:

[lsfreak]

How is the DWK qualifying for an Epic feat if this challenge has to be done pre-epic? :smallconfused:

Standard DWK cheese: they're considered true dragons, and thus have a dragon's age categories, and after a certain age all true dragons qualify for epic feats even if they're not epic. Simply make a DWK at that age and they qualify for epic feats.

[Arcanist]

Standard DWK cheese: they're considered true dragons, and thus have a dragon's age categories, and after a certain age all true dragons qualify for epic feats even if they're not epic. Simply make a DWK at that age and they qualify for epic feats.

Ehhh... Alright I'll just ignore that potential derail and I sincerely hope everyone else does as well...

[Psyborg]

Where are the rules for weapon size and range? I can find it in ch1 of Arms and Equipment Guide (3.0e), but I can't find an updated version, and it's such a core concept that it really would have been copied over somehow to 3.5e.

A&EG is the most recent source. As it was never updated/redone for 3.5, it's still valid.

Besides, if you don't have a rule for it you end up with very big creatures able to swing a dagger farther than they could throw it :smalltongue:


Even if Cragtop Archer's Arcing Shot doesn't stack with this bow, isn't the PrC still useful for the Horizon Shot (shoot once and ignore range increment penalties completely)?

Actually hitting with your arrow is nice, too.

Guided Shot, Spell Compendium. Does the same thing, minus the full-round action, the four-class-level investment, and the race requirement.


Ehhh... Alright I'll just ignore that potential derail and I sincerely hope everyone else does as well...
Mostly :smallbiggrin: Though I suspect if you could pin a finite number to that trick it would be the de facto standard. All we're really after here is number porn, after all, and "line of sight" completely fails to satisfy that!

[Ashtagon]

A&EG is the most recent source. As it was never updated/redone for 3.5, it's still valid.

A reasonable point. Here's another reasonable point. 3.5e weapons no longer have sizes (that's now a property of creatures). As such, a "Large bow" no longer exists as a game concept, so making a bow Large to get a range bonus no longer exists as an option.

The fact that it is studiously not listed in multiple places where it would logically have been written (including a source intended to be a compendium of rules on the topic) suggests too that it was intentionally removed rather than being an omission of oversight.



Besides, if you don't have a rule for it you end up with very big creatures able to swing a dagger farther than they could throw it :smalltongue:


Since when did D&D rules have much to do with common sense? Given that 1st level characters can routinely beat Olympic long jump athletes, realism took a back seat long ago.

[Talya]

A reasonable point. Here's another reasonable point. 3.5e weapons no longer have sizes (that's now a property of creatures). As such, a "Large bow" no longer exists as a game concept, so making a bow Large to get a range bonus no longer exists as an option.


That's not true.

3.5 still has weapons of inappropriate size giving you penalties to weild, or being unweildable. "Powerful Build" is useful in part because it allows you to weild a 3d6 greatsword instead of a 2d6 greatsword - weapon size affects damage dice. Merely being large or having powerful build doesn't give a medium greatsword 3d6 damage dice...the weapon needs to be appropriately sized.

Reach is determined by creature size, not weapon size. If you view range as related to reach, then perhaps you have a point anyway, but weapons still have sizes. However, he's using an obscure 3rd edition rule to increase range in a newer system. Since the rule was not reprinted, it's going to be hard to say one way or the other how it was affected by the change in how weapons and size were handled, if at all.