Help with Crusader/Eternal Blade build

[EliteChoboHax]

Hey there gang :)

I'll be playing a new character soon and i've recently started reading up on the ToB and, due to the flavour and possibilities of an Eternal Blade PrC, i've decided im going to be aiming for that. Granted i start at level 4, there is still some way to go, but i still wanted to get everyones take on my initial idea - Im sure i could min/max optimize more, but so far, my idea is this:

Im starting him off as a Half-elf (There is only regular high elves as pure bloods) with these stats:

Str: 19 (18 base, +1 for level 4)
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

I'd like him to start off as a Barbarian for 1 level, then Fighter for 1 level, then Crusader for the next 2.

Feats:(Im not sure i'll convince my GM to let me pick flaws for extra Feats, so i made him as basic with 3, but i case i CAN convince him - What would be 1-2 other good feats that synergizes well with a 2handed melee combatant? Also, we do not roll to confirm criticals, thus Power Critical and similar isnt viable choices)

Monkey Grip (CW)
Power Attack (PHB)
Stone Power (ToB)

I see him as being a fairly primitive elf, being cast out of elven society due to his mixed blood and adopted by a tribe of plainsmen (hence the barbarian level), during his life growing up, he is approached by something he cannot fully define, a being of sorts - The Tribe believes it to be a strong spirit of the earth, who has chosen him to have a great Destiny. (This is a Spirit Guide, Eternal Blade). The Guide mentors him in many ways and urges him to head to the nearest major city to enlist in the guards watch, so that he will learn discipline and become exposed further to civilization. This is where he takes a fighter level to symbolize his years as a "soldier".

I know, i picked Barb for Rage and Fighter for feats, because i wanted something i feel would benefit me, but also for the flavour of mixing some classes together for a backstory

Now, he takes 2 Crusader levels and im a little unsure how to really get a good story out of that, other than ofcourse the Spirit Guide had a hand in influencing the Half-elf

Okay! Now, what i need from you, if you would be as kind to assist me:

Stats:

I need to get my stats checked. DO they look okay? Should i change them somehow? They have been rolled, so the values are set in stone, but they could be reorganised

Feats:

I've opted for the Monkey Grip feat as i would like to use a Large Greataxe, to symbolise a little savagery from his upbringing vs using a sword instead

Power Attack is pretty much a staple i belive - Stone Power i just liked alot, but it may not be the best choice around ofcourse.

Skills:

Are there any skills that i HAVE to focus on for Crusader/Eternal Blade? If not, im just grabbing some random skills here and there

Backstory:

If anyone has any kind of ideas to how he came from Barbarian, Fighter, to crusader, it would be much appreciated. At least just for inspiration, i feel im drawing total blanks atm and i feel a good backstory is even more essential to a character, than actual stats

Thank you all in advance, i know the gitp people will be able to assist me for sure :)

Edit: Oh yes, i almost forgot - As a Crusader i need a cause, in my case i've opted to steer clear of the religious way and go for a moral code of sorts instead - If anyone has any suggestions as to which aspects this code could contain, i'd much appreciate your ideas and suggestions

[the_archduke]

Let me be the first to say. Monkey grip is a trap... don't use it.

[EliteChoboHax]

Let me be the first to say. Monkey grip is a trap... don't use it.

Tell me why you think its a trap then - I dont see it as a major issue

[Dusk Eclipse]

It is a -2 attack for an average increase of 1 point of damage, simply not worth it. I would suggest you keep either Power Attack or Stone Power; but not both, the penalty of using them both (if it is even possible, I am not sure it is) will be too high so keep one PA if you are going Offensive or SP if you consider more defensive. Extra Rage will work well for you as with only 1 level of Barbarian you can only rage 1/day. Extra Granted Maneuver is also pretty good for any Crusader.

[Essence_of_War]

Tell me why you think its a trap then - I dont see it as a major issue

It does the same thing as power attack (more damage, less accuracy) but it's a bajillion times worse.

Power Attack lets you control the ratio, and the ratio is allowed to scale with level.

Monkey Grip is static, and small.

There are corner cases when it might be OK. If you're using lances to charge to get multipliers on your damage. In such a case, it can be passable, but most people aren't using it in the corner case, they're picking it because they like the idea of big swords.

[EliteChoboHax]

It is a -2 attack for an average increase of 1 point of damage, simply not worth it. I would suggest you keep either Power Attack or Stone Power; but not both, the penalty of using them both (if it is even possible, I am not sure it is) will be too high so keep one PA if you are going Offensive or SP if you consider more defensive. Extra Rage will work well for you as with only 1 level of Barbarian you can only rage 1/day. Extra Granted Maneuver is also pretty good for any Crusader.

Going to a 3D6 damage weapon with a -2 to hit, from a 1D12 seems okay to me - Maybe its just me who isnt seeing it.

Regarding the PA/SP feats, im the only real melee in our group of 3 - With a Truenamer and Archivist as other classes, so i opted for both an offensive and defensive Feat as i imagine they will both be put to good use.

I see the idea of Extra Rage, but as its something that is in my characters past, he will not be focusing any more on that aspect, as an in-game view. His goals are different now.

I did want the Extra Granted Maneuver, but i was going to wait for my next Feat available for it - But, if it turns out that Monkey Grip is horribly behind a regular 2hander, i'll swap it for that definately.

I still "might" be able to get 2 more feats on this char, if im allowed to get feats - Any suggestions as to which might work out well for a 2handed melee guy? Was thinking Cleave, as its a great way to dispatch low HP packs of adversaries

[EliteChoboHax]

It does the same thing as power attack (more damage, less accuracy) but it's a bajillion times worse.

Power Attack lets you control the ratio, and the ratio is allowed to scale with level.

Monkey Grip is static, and small.

There are corner cases when it might be OK. If you're using lances to charge to get multipliers on your damage. In such a case, it can be passable, but most people aren't using it in the corner case, they're picking it because they like the idea of big swords.

As you being the 3d person to tell me Monkey Grip isnt worth its investment, im sure you are right and im wrong - Its scrapped! In comes Extra Granted Maneuver instead then

[Essence_of_War]

EGM is a fantastic feat for Crusaders.

I never leave home without it :smallamused:

[Lostbutseeking]

Personally what I would do is ditch the fighter level in favor of a second barbarian level. With Power Attack as your level one feat.

In particular you will want to use the Wolf Totem (SRD/UA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm)) and Spirit Lion Totem variants (Complete Champion). As they dont remove the same features you can take them both. This nets you Improved Trip, without needing 13 int and combat expertise which meshes very well with many Crusader builds and Pounce which is always nice.

Then you just go straight into Crusader at 3 and take EGM. Stay in Crusader until 10 to get your third stance which should be Thicket of Blades.

You need to pick up weapon focus of some weapon for your feat at 6 or 9 to qualify for Eternal Blade.

You may also wish to consider using a reach weapon.

[IdleMuse]

If you're worried about the variance of a 1d12 weapon (as a motivation for Monkey Grip), the solution might be to not take one; reach weapons will help you a lot, defensively. You could swap out Monkey Grip for Exotic Weapon Proficiency in the Dwarven Warpike (Races of Stone p155), which is a 2d6 reach axe that can also trip and set against charge.

Or you could wait until around fifth-level and buy Strongarm Bracers (MiC), which are like Monkey Grip on an item, without a penalty, for 6000gp.

[EliteChoboHax]

Im not going to go for the trip/control Crusader style that most people seems to emphasize on, i'll just be a straight forward, regular melee fighter type. So i dont really "need" a reach weapon, nor do i feel that one is suitable for my vision of my character. My game doesnt focus on the game mechanics as trip/grapple/etc alot, mostly focusing on the roleplaying part of the game. So there is no battlegrid, figurines, hell my GM rarely even opens a monsters manual as there is no real reason to. You can challenge players in other ways than through challenge ratings and optimal encounters.

Also, for the Barbarian Totems, i'll be playing a regular barbarian and no variant of it. Would the fighter level still be skippable? I prefer not to skip it, as i like the idea of the character "ascending" from primitive to civilized in the Barbarian > Fight > Crusader way

And yes, im thinking i'll just grab the Weapon Focus Feat at 9 or something, its nothing i really cant live without untill its required

[Darrin]

Going to a 3D6 damage weapon with a -2 to hit, from a 1D12 seems okay to me - Maybe its just me who isnt seeing it.


1d12 average damage = 6.5
3d6 average damage = 10.5

So for a -2 attack penalty (which is always on and you can never get rid of), you get an average damage bonus of +4.0. Meanwhile, the average Power Attack meatbag can get the same penalty/damage bonus with a two-handed weapon. He can also adjust the penalty/bonus according to the situation, or decide not to use it on high-AC opponents. Once he adds Leap Attack, Spirited Charge, Headlong Rush, Valorous Weapon, etc. to increase his damage multipliers, he's getting +8 or +16 damage out of the same -2 penalty.

Monkey Grip may be worthwhile if you already have your weapon damage up to 4d6 or 2d8, in which case going up to 6d6 or 4d8 gives you a +7 or +9 damage bonus, which starts to look somewhat comparable to Power Attack multipliers.

Buy yourself a pair of Strongarm Bracers instead (6000 GP, Magic Item Compendium). They do everything Monkey Grip does, but don't cost a feat, and don't even incur a -2 weapon size penalty.

[EliteChoboHax]

1d12 average damage = 6.5
3d6 average damage = 10.5

So for a -2 attack penalty (which is always on and you can never get rid of), you get an average damage bonus of +4.0. Meanwhile, the average Power Attack meatbag can get the same penalty/damage bonus with a two-handed weapon. He can also adjust the penalty/bonus according to the situation, or decide not to use it on high-AC opponents. Once he adds Leap Attack, Spirited Charge, Headlong Rush, Valorous Weapon, etc. to increase his damage multipliers, he's getting +8 or +16 damage out of the same -2 penalty.

Monkey Grip may be worthwhile if you already have your weapon damage up to 4d6 or 2d8, in which case going up to 6d6 or 4d8 gives you a +7 or +9 damage bonus, which starts to look somewhat comparable to Power Attack multipliers.

Buy yourself a pair of Strongarm Bracers instead (6000 GP, Magic Item Compendium). They do everything Monkey Grip does, but don't cost a feat, and don't even incur a -2 weapon size penalty.

Sadly, we are not able to buy magic items as we see fit - Its in very rare supply and up to the GM if any is available at all - I wouldnt expect myself to get my hands on a pair of those for a long long time, if at all. It has been pointed out earlier as well and its the best call by far, just not for me, the way it is going to be.

[TopCheese]

Hmmm if you wasn't keen on eternal blade you could take a race that has 1 LA and no RHD to get Powerful Build.

You then can use weapons made for one size larger. Think of it as trading a level of fighter and the feat monkey grip for a better option.

I've seen Eternal Blade refluffed for Goliaths and it worked out pretty well.

Also I think Goliath have their own barbarian sub levels.

Anyways enough with being "that guy"

Whenever you take non-ToB classes you always want to take an even ammount to gain the full advantage of the .5 Initiator Level. So whatever you decide make sure you keep that in mind.

Also as a crudader you can be a lock down guy and a white raven tactics guy. Thus you can pump as much as you want into your PA during your turn since you have other ways of messing with the enemy. A good dex and combat reflexes coupled with stand still was my favorite level 3 crusader. I think I went Shock Trooper since as a Crusader you can take the hits and you sometimes want the enemy to hit you.

[Lostbutseeking]

If you don't intend to make a control build then you are free to skip the second level of Barbarian and take Fighter instead.

Though not using a control build means not picking up pounce is going to hurt you alot more than it otherwise would, especially as Crusader unlike the Warblade lacks most of the high damage standard action strike manuevers.

[EliteChoboHax]

If you don't intend to make a control build then you are free to skip the second level of Barbarian and take Fighter instead.

Though not using a control build means not picking up pounce is going to hurt you alot more than it otherwise would, especially as Crusader unlike the Warblade lacks most of the high damage standard action strike manuevers.

After looking it over, i can see that pounce would definately be a great addition, if you charge around alot. I'll definately look into getting my GM to okay that, as its a great addition for a cost im willing to pay (Fast movement). And yes, i dont really like the idea of tripping people all over with a reach weapon, it doesnt seem like something a barbarian would do. Eventho i know im going Crusader, i feel my character has to retain some of the ferocity of a more savage class and Trip seems entirely too organised if done with weapons (unarmed Trip is a bit more brawler'ish and in theme)

ALso, my GM agreed to letting me pick two flaws, so i have two more feats and one of the flaws is actually quite good for a Crusader. At least, if im understanding White Raven Tactics correct, the Flaw that gives you -6 to your initiative, is pretty good, right? Making sure that your allies generally have their initiative before you and with White Raven Tactics, you can essentially provide them with another turn - Right?

Anyway, time to recap:

Barbarian 1 (Spirit lion totem)/Fighter 1/Crusader 2

Stances:

Martial Stance
Iron Guard's Glare

Maneuvers:

Crusader Strike
Battle Leader's Charge
Stone Bones
Foehammer
Tactical Strike


Feats(5 total):

Power Attack
Extra Granted Maneuver
Stone Power (Retrained eventually)

Other than that, im a little unsure as to what would be best - Im considering Cleave as i've always found it to be a great feat, with many chances to be utilized. We all know that the BBEG has minions upon minions and they need to be cleaved! (Its definately not set in stone, its just my current idea)

Last slot is completely open, but Combat Reflexes did tempt me a bit.

Alright - Any suggestions to my feat selection and especially to my Maneuver choices? Did i overlook some of the best ones or do my choices look good? (I know Crusader Strike probably isnt the best around, but being the only melee im sure i'll enjoy having the chance to pretty much cast a cure light on myself every 3 rounds if needed)

EDIT: Oh yes, wouldnt Extra Rage Feat + the Barbarian Variant: Whirling Frenzy be good? Im seeing him twirl around with a Greataxe/sword hitting twice during frenzy at level 1 would be quite good? (Eventho he is level 4 when we start playing)

[Lostbutseeking]

Both Battle Leaders Charge and Foehammer are level two manuevers which you don't gain access to until character level 4 - and you dont gain any manuevers that level. Additionally Mountain Hammer is pretty much strictly superior to Foehammer as it bypasses hardness as well as DR.

If you know there are going to be mooks then Cleave is a perfectly good feat. Extra rage is a good choice regardless of what you want to do. Whirling frenzy is fine.

Even with WRT to play with I would still consider -6 initiative to be a truly horrific penalty and one that is quite likely to get you killed at some point.

[EliteChoboHax]

Both Battle Leaders Charge and Foehammer are level two manuevers which you don't gain access to until character level 4 - and you dont gain any manuevers that level. Additionally Mountain Hammer is pretty much strictly superior to Foehammer as it bypasses hardness as well as DR.

If you know there are going to be mooks then Cleave is a perfectly good feat. Extra rage is a good choice regardless of what you want to do. Whirling frenzy is fine.

Even with WRT to play with I would still consider -6 initiative to be a truly horrific penalty and one that is quite likely to get you killed at some point.

Would i have access to level 2 maneuvers at initiation level 3? 2 from Crusader and 1 from Barbarian and Fighter?

I do agree, Mountain Hammer is better than Foehammer and i've changed it now.

How does Whirling Frenzy stack up against regular Rage? If im reading it right, i get another attack each round during the rage, but both my attacks will be at -2 (Which is offset by the +4 str bonus from the frenzt) - Right?

[theUnearther]

Yes, you get access to 2nd level maneuvers at level four, but your fourth level is Crusader 2, which does not grant any. You'd have to wait until 5th.

[eggs]

How does Whirling Frenzy stack up against regular Rage? If im reading it right, i get another attack each round during the rage, but both my attacks will be at -2 (Which is offset by the +4 str bonus from the frenzt) - Right?
Right.

If you're pouncing and mainly using maneuvers for boosts, counters and charges (and there's little reason not to; pounce is just worth a lot more damage than most strikes), Whirling Frenzy is a much more powerful offensive option, which is usually the main concern.

If you're mainly using strikes for offense for whatever reason, they're about the same offensively, but normal rage gives better defensive bonuses (save boosts are good and crusaders can actually use the temporary Con HP effectively).

Focusing on pouncing probably won't lead you wrong, so Whirling Frenzy is probably the better call.