Demon Hunting for Dummies . . . or at least wizards.

[AWiz_Abroad]

So,

We're doing a typical clear the demon pit from out near a friendly village quest. It synergizes nicely with a "obtain a demons heart for study by the Archmage: quest. I'm wondering what I should be doing as a caster.

Knowns

Demons with Red Slime
Babau
Demons with some kind of beard (I pray it's not a balor)
Fire resistant
Electricity Immune (maybe)?
The demons were able to clear out a village of goliaths.


Preps the Martial characters made (Goliath Fighter7/Hulking Hurler 2, Wild Shaping druid 9/LE Rogue/Assassin, Bard ? [plus some bardy PrCs])

Cold Iron Weapons of Everbright.

Preps I make (Wiz 5, Master Spec 2, IoTSfV 2) 22 INT, Abjuration Focus(Substandard I know, but I love IoTSfV)

????

Resources: Tome of Ancient Lore (MIC 50% chance to locate any spell[I got the relic activated]), A Warning Collision Quarterstaff, A love of fire (not super useful), a psychoactive skin of the celestial, and as we just got leveled, the ability to chose two 5th lvl or below spells to go after demons with.

So. . . thoughts from the forum?

What would be the IDEAL spell load out, and what should I choose for my level 5 spells. I'm pretty sold on a teleport, because we have to get the demons heart to the archmage in under a week, and he's at least a week away, but alternative recommendations are always welcome.

[Urpriest]

Balors don't typically have beards. Barbazu do, but they're not demons. I can't think of an obvious type of demon that has a beard.

[Repaermirg]

If your DM is open to some slightly out-of-the-box thinking, (and really, they all should be) I'd suggest having the magic circle against evil sigil made out of pure silver, complete with the binding diagram, and using shrink item on it. Then, you can bind a demon within by casting magic circle against evil. If you wanted to, you could even make it permanent, so that you could just reshrink the circle when you're done.

Of course, this is assuming your DM will allow you to use solid silver rather than powdered. I don't see why not, but you never know. Also, you might need to add those spells to your book, depending on what you've got.

[AWiz_Abroad]

If your DM is open to some slightly out-of-the-box thinking, (and really, they all should be) I'd suggest having the magic circle against evil sigil made out of pure silver, complete with the binding diagram, and using shrink item on it. Then, you can bind a demon within by casting magic circle against evil. If you wanted to, you could even make it permanent, so that you could just reshrink the circle when you're done.

Of course, this is assuming your DM will allow you to use solid silver rather than powdered. I don't see why not, but you never know. Also, you might need to add those spells to your book, depending on what you've got.

That would've been fantastic . . . except we're already in the field. I don't know if we've got time to march back to town(1 week), find someone who can craft a specialty item like that (???) and then march back out to the demon pit.

I also suspect the rest of the party, who are fully prepped would be happy about the delay. Is binding really that effective a combat strategy against demons? 1 or 2 sure, but a horde?

[AWiz_Abroad]

Balors don't typically have beards. Barbazu do, but they're not demons. I can't think of an obvious type of demon that has a beard.

. . . But those are devils. . . why would Devils be working with demons on a conquer/kill job. . . it doesn't make sense.

So there aren't any demons that have beard like things?

[Repaermirg]

I guess, if I were to continue with this, that the fabricate spell and silver coins would do. But for that you'd need to choose fabricate as your other fifth level spell.

[Urpriest]

. . . But those are devils. . . why would Devils be working with demons on a conquer/kill job. . . it doesn't make sense.

So there aren't any demons that have beard like things?

None where that would be emphasized. For example, Nalfeshnees probably have beards, but nobody would think of them first as bearded before saying "giant pig-ape-man!" Where did you get the beard description? Directly from fighting them? From fleeing NPCs? There may be a demon that fits, but it would be nice to know context.

[AWiz_Abroad]

I guess, if I were to continue with this, that the fabricate spell and silver coins would do. But for that you'd need to choose fabricate as your other fifth level spell.

Now, That is clever

And I've got a 50% chance of pulling any spell out of the tome of ancient lore each morning.

Though . . . how were you thinking of using MCaE as a offense?

The text pretty much specifies called

"A magic circle against evil can be focused inward rather than outward.
When focused inward, the spell binds a nongood called creature (such as those called by the lesser planar binding, planar binding, and greater planar binding spells) for a maximum of 24 hours per caster level, provided that you cast the spell that calls the creature within 1 round of casting the magic circle."

The protection from evil side effect bit is great and all, but I can do that with a 1st level slot.

[Diarmuid]

Abjuration specialist, with 5th level spells...one of them clearly should be Dismissal.

I realise it's a single target spell, but a 1 for 1 trade with a single spell can be a pretty large swing.

[AWiz_Abroad]

Abjuration specialist, with 5th level spells...one of them clearly should be Dismissal.

I realise it's a single target spell, but a 1 for 1 trade with a single spell can be a pretty large swing.

That is a nice one. Particularly given the bonus to the DC from Initiate and master spec.

Teleport for quest reasons, Dismissal (Abjuration bonus spell per level) and Refusal (as a shelter when combined with Rope Trick). Nice.

Thats the three picks for Lvl 5. Your ideal spell loadouts?

Assume any spell published. Lvls 1-5

[Diarmuid]

That is a nice one. Particularly given the bonus to the DC from Initiate and master spec.

Teleport for quest reasons, Dismissal (Abjuration bonus spell per level) and Refusal (as a shelter when combined with Rope Trick). Nice.

Thats the three picks for Lvl 5. Your ideal spell loadouts?

Assume any spell published. Lvls 1-5

Bolded above part for discussion...

You dont get any additional spells in your spellbook for being a specialist wizard AFAIK. You're only going to learn 2 spells, so one of those 3 would have to go (unless you're counting one of them being from that book you've got).

[AWiz_Abroad]

Bolded above part for discussion...

You dont get any additional spells in your spellbook for being a specialist wizard AFAIK. You're only going to learn 2 spells, so one of those 3 would have to go (unless you're counting one of them being from that book you've got).

Dang, you're right thats a Away from character sheet moment. I suppose it doesn't matter, as I've only got two lvl 5 slots per day.

Dismissal wins I think.

[Diarmuid]

What schools did you prohibit?

[Analytica]

. . . But those are devils. . . why would Devils be working with demons on a conquer/kill job. . . it doesn't make sense.

So there aren't any demons that have beard like things?

It could be an oversight, but if not... they might be barbazu, and the presence of devils and demons both imply the presence of a conjurer arcanist.

[Diarmuid]

Or...some larger plot that has yet to be discovered.

[Kelb_Panthera]

please tell me someone in your party is sporting a wand of dimensional anchor. Most demons have teleport at-will, which is a major headache if you can't shut it down.

[Telok]

Your DM could be doing what I have done for my game and not making a distinction between demons and devils. I have done this because it gives me a wider selection of bad guys at a particular level (CRs 5 to 7 there are only three devils and two demons) and I'm old enough to remember when there was no real distinction between demons and devils apart from where they lived.

That said, your issue is identification and capture/killing.

Beardy: If it also came with a glaive and caused wounds bleed then it's a bearded devil. These devils can also inflict disease with their beards if they hit with two claw attacks and may rage like a barbarian.

Slimy: This is almost certainly a babau demon. The slime is corrosive and may damage anything you hit the demon with. It also has sneak attack, dispel magic SLA, and see invisible SLA.

Both of these have spot, listen, hide, and move silently as class skills. Both have DR, SR, and energy resistances or immunities. Of course they can both use Greater Teleport at-will.

Summon Monster 5 and Dismissal are solid spells at level 5 for this type of thing but you also mentioned needing Teleport to get to the archmage. At 4th level Locate Creature is useful because you know what you are looking for, Black Tentacles has no save or spell resistance, and Dimensional Anchor is an absolute must.

One definite plus is that you have the perfect weapons for hunting babau.

[AWiz_Abroad]

What schools did you prohibit?

Enchantment and Necromancy

[AWiz_Abroad]

It could be an oversight, but if not... they might be barbazu, and the presence of devils and demons both imply the presence of a conjurer arcanist.

Possible (we did tick off a demon summoner, but this particular problem is located around the conveniently named Black Pit in Khorvaire, and the problem seems to predate our problems with said demon summoner). [One of our party is local, and hunted quasits as a rite of passage])

[AWiz_Abroad]

please tell me someone in your party is sporting a wand of dimensional anchor. Most demons have teleport at-will, which is a major headache if you can't shut it down.

Ah,

. . .

No. I think that may've been an oversight. Though Dimensional anchor is a 4th level spell. Non-wandable right?

I pretty much forsee my role as being battle field control/lock down on any SLAs/spells. I've got a good 2 Melee monsters (Fighter/HH, and Polar Bear druid with claw attachments (cold Iron everbright) a joker bard, and a sneak attacking master.

[AWiz_Abroad]

Your DM could be doing what I have done for my game and not making a distinction between demons and devils. . . We're level 9, so I think he's playing it straight up demons

Beardy: The Goliaths didn't mention any glaives. However, my wizard wasn't there to ask any of those questions (was scribing a spell in my book from a scroll so our druid (who started a Nightmare war with a demon summoner) could get some sleep [our DM's fantastic at incorporating nightmares]

Slimy: Positive ID!. . .

Summon Monster 5 and Dismissal are solid spells at level 5 for this type of thing . . . What sort of Monster should be summoned in your estimation?

At 4th level Locate Creature is useful because you know what you are looking for . . . Excellent. Something not on my current list, but well worth it

Black Tentacles has no save or spell resistance. . . Got it already in my spellbook (non relic).

Dimensional Anchor is an absolute must . . . Will load up on it. However, all three of these spells are 4th level. I get 5 or 6 (Level 9, 22 INT, SRD blocked at work). I'm currently thinking 1 black tentacle, 1 Locate Creature, and the rest as Dimensional anchors.

One definite plus is that you have the perfect weapons for hunting babau.The Goliath's low level wizard ID'ed them as Babau, so we had the chance to arm ourselves. Of course I didn't roll a good enough knowledge at the time to remember the SLA of Greater TP

Any ideas for lower level spells?

[Diarmuid]

So if your roll wasnt good enough to realise that the creatures can teleport, why would you be preparing dimensional anchor spells? Kinda flies in the face of in-game vs out-of-game knowledge, no?

[AWiz_Abroad]

An excellent point.

My counterargument is that since I made that roll, we actually fought a couple. I saw them up close and in person. Thankfully we managed to obliterate them fast, but I'm hoping in person versus a 3rd hand description allows for another knowledge planes roll (hopefully better than a 2 that I rolled last time)

[Diarmuid]

I would probably allow for a new role, just wanted to make sure you werent going to metagame too much =).

Make sure you get that roll (if allowed) before you rest.

[Randomguy]

An alternative to Dimensional Anchor is Anticipate Teleportation, in the spell compedium. It doesn't stop teleportation, but if someone teleports near you it delays their arrival for one round, and tells you who's appearing where. This makes it really hard for them to use tactical teleportation, but it still lets them teleport away.
Since it affects you, not the demons, you only need to cast it once (it's got a 24 hour duration), or once per partymember at most if you're being thorough, while you'd need to recast dimensional anchor often.

If you pick up Lesser Planar Binding you could bind some archons or angels or something that could help you fight demons (although this is a bit of a cheap trick, and you might need to pay them).

[Urpriest]

So most of the details you've got are generic to demons, rather than specific to particular types. All demons have some fire resistance, and electricity immunity. As pointed out, the red slime guys are definitely Babaus. The beard is trickier...Kelvezus are pictured with a goatee, but in general there aren't any demons that would be primarily described as bearded. One interesting possibility: what if you're not the only one fighting these demons? What if a squad of Barbazu have arrived for some reason, and are fighting the babaus as well?

[AWiz_Abroad]

Spells Available that will probably be useful

Level 1: Protection from Evil. Mage Armor, Rope Trick, Benign Transposition
Level 2: Glitterdust, web, See Invis
Level 3: Dispel Magic, Great Thunderclap
Level 4: Parboil(Ability damage makes me happy) , Dimension Step, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door
Level 5: Teleport, Dismissal (Both learned this level)

Any other spell (assuming I don't abuse it and have the DM hit me for critical damage) have a 50% chance of being accessed.

Already discussed

Lvl 4 Dimensional Anchor,,
Lvl 4 Locate Creature
Lvl 5 Summon Monster V (Which summons? I have a lot of meatshields)
Lvl 5 Dismissal: Classic fantasy feel "I banish you to the pits of the abyss"

Anything else worth looking into? Splats are nearly all available (no BoVD or BoED)

[AWiz_Abroad]

An alternative to Dimensional Anchor is Anticipate Teleportation, in the spell compedium. It doesn't stop teleportation, but if someone teleports near you it delays their arrival for one round, and tells you who's appearing where. This makes it really hard for them to use tactical teleportation, but it still lets them teleport away.
Since it affects you, not the demons, you only need to cast it once (it's got a 24 hour duration), or once per partymember at most if you're being thorough, while you'd need to recast dimensional anchor often.

If you pick up Lesser Planar Binding you could bind some archons or angels or something that could help you fight demons (although this is a bit of a cheap trick, and you might need to pay them).

I like Anticipate Teleport. I have been loading up on Teleports in the last couple levels, so it makes Fluff sense as well. And it's less painful on the slots per day. Hmmm. decisions decisions

[Downysole]

Whenever I fight monsters with known spell resistance, I like to buff the party instead of relying on caster level checks to get the job done. Since you've eliminated enchantment and necro, that leaves some transmutation spells that might be useful.

Getting past their DR and SR is always tough, but since your party knows to use their cold iron weapons, maybe they know the other immunities? If so, you might want to consider upgrading ammunition that the hulking hurler uses or the rogue if he intends to do sneak attacks.

Obviously, buffing your party with any stacking abjurations would keep them alive longer.

Keeping yourself alive is similarly important :)

[AWiz_Abroad]

Whenever I fight monsters with known spell resistance, I like to buff the party instead of relying on caster level checks to get the job done. Since you've eliminated enchantment and necro, that leaves some transmutation spells that might be useful.

Getting past their DR and SR is always tough, but since your party knows to use their cold iron weapons, maybe they know the other immunities? If so, you might want to consider upgrading ammunition that the hulking hurler uses or the rogue if he intends to do sneak attacks.

Obviously, buffing your party with any stacking abjurations would keep them alive longer.

Keeping yourself alive is similarly important :)

Thanks for the advice. Yeah, it's hard for me. I do love my blasting spells.
Oh well, expanding horizons. :).

Our HH did pick up a homebrew addition to her MIC bag of bolders that makes them Cold Iron. Our Rogue has a +2 Everbright Cold Iron Rapier, so he's good. Keeping myself alive is why I got the skin of the celestial, and Teleport.

[LTwerewolf]

assay spell resistance and lower spell resistance are pretty amazing spells for all but ignoring SR. LSR requires them to make a fortitude save, but the target of the spell takes a penalty on its saving throw equal to your caster level. It's up to your dm if lower spell resistance and spell vulnerability stack. They do the same thing, but one is a lvl 4 spell, and the other is a level 4 spell.

[Randomguy]

Getting past their DR and SR is always tough

Good point.

I know two useful spells to get past SR: True Casting, from complete mage (level 1) and Assay Spell Resistance, from spell compedium (level 4, swift action to cast, lasts 1/round per level but only works against a single target). Assay Spell Resistance is better, but it might not be worth it at this level, since you don't have that many fourth level slots.

It's probably be best to just use spells with no SR.

[AWiz_Abroad]

I think the no-SR is going to be the only option.

That being said,I've never really had problems beating SR, even without significant cheesing of my CL.

[Diarmuid]

Was your knowledge roll good enough to get the fact that they have spell resistance? Did you cast any spells during your encounter that "fizzled" oddly?

Again, while everyone here can peruse the MM or SRD to their hearts' desire, your wizard has no such information and his/her choices should be made based on his/her information.

[AWiz_Abroad]

I did get basic demon traits including SR, DRs for Babazu particularly.

I did not get SLAs/Spells

I am very careful about out of game knowledge, because my DM has made the "I will punish metagaming" statement.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ah,

. . .

No. I think that may've been an oversight. Though Dimensional anchor is a 4th level spell. Non-wandable right?

No, 4th is the cap for wands. A wand of dimensional anchor is standard equipment for dealing with teleporting foes. It's a tad expensive though.