Cleric spells that stack

[dantiesilva]

Out of all of these spells which ones stack using the least amount of spells so that I at least have 1 spell of each level left over.

Guidance
Resistance
Bless
Divine favor
Magic weapon
Aid
Align weapon
Bear endurance line
Magic circle against Chaos/Evil
Magic vestment
Prayer
Divine power
Righteous might
Conviction
Foundation of stone
Guiding Light
Ironguts
Divine Insight
Hand of Divinity
Cloak of Bravery
Favorable Sacrifice
Girallon’s Blessing
Grace
Shield of Warding
Visage of the Deity, Lesser
Holy Transformation, Lesser
Resistance, Greater
Divine Agility
Resistance, Superior
Visage of the Deity
Death Dragon
Visage of the Deity, Greater

[Douglas]

For each spell, list the type of the bonus and what the bonus applies to. Any two spells that have the same for both do not stack with each other. All the rest do stack.

[ericgrau]

You should also look at the spell duration. Stacking 5 buffs is pretty useless if the fight is over by the time you're done casting them. I'd do it like this:

hour/level: in the morning
10 min/level: at the dungeon entrance
1 min/level or 1 round/level: during the buff round (if any), best one(s) first
1 round/level and very very good: during round 1, maybe

The last one has to really be worth it or your damage could actually go down instead of up because you didn't hit anything in the most important round of combat. I'd shoot for at least a +5, if not more. I like prayer because even though it's +1/-1 you sometimes hit 7 or 8 creatures (or if not, don't cast it). I'd cast it in the buff round instead in place of nearly anything else but you have to wait for enemies to show up, so that makes it a round 1 spell. Divine power OTOH I'd say is vastly overrated as something that might make you lose effectiveness just so you can brag on paper. But at least that one you might cast in the buff round.

Quicken greatly helps the last 2 categories since it increases the number of buffs you can cast to 2 each instead of usually 1 each. You could also quicken something round 2 right before you hit something. By round 3 the quickened buff will get very little use but at least it's better than nothing. DMM persist likewise saves time but it's a bit high optimization for most groups.

Starting to fight round 2 is also something to consider when comparing this build to another rather than merely looking at your stats on paper. Maybe your round 1 buff is still worth the cost, but that doesn't mean the cost was free so you have to remember to subtract that off when doing build comparisons. Often I see clerics go to a lot of high optimization just to gain a couple points of attack bonus over an unoptimized fighter. Yet that lost round actually puts them behind. Instead there are a lot of group friendly yet less brag-worthy spells like prayer (and many more in spell compendium) that work far better with or without DMM persist.

[dantiesilva]

Guidance +1 competence bonus on one attack,saving, or skill check
Resistance +1 resistance bonus on saves
Bless +1 Morale bonus on attack rolls and on saving throws against fear effects
Divine favor +1 luck on attack and damage rolls for every 3 caster levels you have[+3]
Magic weapon +1 enchantment bonus on attack and damage rolls
Aid +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and saves against fear effects, plus 1d8+caster level hp[1d8+10]
Bear's endurance line +4 enchantment bonus to abilities
Magic circle against Chaos/Evil +2 deflection bonus to AC and +2 resistance bonus to AC
Magic vestment +1 enchantment bonus to armor or shield/4 levels [+2]
Prayer +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saves, and skill checks, while each of your foes takes a –1 penalty on such rolls
Divine power Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.
Righteous might +8 size bonus to Strength and a +4 size bonus to Constitution. You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to your natural armor

Conviction The spell grants the subject a +2 morale bonus on all saving throws, with an additional +1 to the bonus for every six caster levels you have (maximum +5 morale bonus at 18th level).[+3]

Foundation of stone the subject creatures gain a +2 bonus to Armor Class and a +4 bonus on Strength checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped.

Guiding Light The light grants a +1 circumstance bonus on ranged attack rolls against any target in the area. Spellcasters in battle sometimes use this spell to designate targets for archers.

Divine insight This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to 5 + your caster level (maximum bonus of +15) on any single skill check. Activating the effect requires an immediate action.[15]

Hand of Divinity saving throws 2 sacred bonus and the spell is a good spell.

Cloak of Bravery All allies within the area (including you) gain a morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects equal to your caster level (max +10).[10]

[ericgrau]

Luck doesn't stack. Only untyped, dodge and circumstance do. There are other threads with a lot of good suggested spells, especially personal spells that hit the whole party for persist. But I wouldn't know them off the top of my head without looking through spell compendium. Just look through the lists in the back for the good cleric multi-buffs, they tend to be best.

Greater magic weapon is pretty nice because your weapon is probably a +1 with misc properties anyway, but magic vestment tends to scale a bit slow. Unless the DM is really shorting you on magic items I'd just spend the few thousand on permanent armor. Or craft your own (scales faster). Or magic vestment allies who put less emphasis on armor purchases, such as ranged allies.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The only modifier that stack with itself are Dodge bonus as long as they don't come from the same source.

If you keep both Divine favour and prayer at the same time, you would keep DF bonuses on attack and damage rolls as they are higher than Prayer; but you would keep the luck bonus on skills and saves.

[Douglas]

There is no "kind of bonus that counts as untyped". The marker of an untyped bonus is simply that it doesn't have a type. As in, instead of saying "+1 morale/luck/sacred/size/whatever bonus" it just says "+1 bonus". There aren't very many spells that grant untyped bonuses.

And no, you can't walk around with all that all day - unless you're pulling some serious shenanigans with Persistent Spell and metamagic costs (usually via Divine Metamagic), and it seems unlikely that you would have learned the game well enough to figure out how to do that without having already learned the bonus stacking rules along the way.

[ericgrau]

Ya go back and look at the time considerations I posted, then add to that the number of spells you think you can persist. Next prioritize the biggest bonuses into those openings, probably the whole party buffs where you can.

[dantiesilva]

I have been playing for 5 years thank you, but when you only play with one group and you are normally the tank you do not worry about this kind of stuff. And I took extend spell Persist spell, DMM persist spell so yes they should last all day as far as I know. Just because someone does not know the rules of stacking does not mean they do not know the basics of optimization my friend. So I would like it if you didn't jump to conclusions.

To everyone else thank you for clearing that up with me it was very helpful and will be needed for my next encounter.

[Douglas]

I said unlikely, not impossible. It's the kind of thing that comes up a lot with the type of character that would be interested in DMM Persist.

In any case, this many spells is going to take a heck of a lot of turn attempts to persist. Do you have a giant pile of nightsticks with a DM who rules they stack? The only other way I can think of to get enough is to acquire multiple turning pools, and unless you've got the full 3 possible (which is a bit tricky to do - elemental domains don't count, it has to be undead for DMM) a load of spells this big would still really be stretching it.

[eggs]

Note that of the listed spells, only Righteous Might, Divine Power, Divine Favor and Prayer are clearly persistable. Touch range spells are iffy, but the case against them (touch range is reach, which is variable) is strong enough that it's usually safest to assume they won't work.

[Zdrak]

Does luck stack?
In one of the Futurama movies, Bender goes "with three kinds of luck, I can't lose!", which immediately prompted me into thinking, hey, he's wrong! Luck bonuses don't stack!

[mattie_p]

Cleric with ACF or substitution level that can explicitly be used for divine feats (Azurin from MoI, destroy undead from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, etc) + Sacred Exorcist (for regular turns) + Death Delver/Dread Necro dip (for rebuke), take planning (for free extend spell) and undeath (free extra turning) domains are the usual tricks for DMM persist. Add in at least one nightstick (or more if they stack) and a reliquary holy symbol.

But unless you take a lot of extra turning feats... really difficult to pull off all of those as persisted, even the ones that don't involve range: touch.

[dantiesilva]

I have 10 turn attempts a day. One night stick, Extra turning, sun domain, RSoP, and then cha bonus

[eggs]

In that case, we're looking at one DMM: persisted spell, the long duration effects and whatever you can quicken.

That probably means you're looking at Righteous Might OR Divine Power DMM Persisted, Divine Favor normal-Persisted, GMW+Magic Vestment+Magic Circle sustained by their durations, and maybe a quickened Aid or Divine Power (the latter only at very high levels).

[mattie_p]

RSOP offers extra greater turning, as per the sun domain. The sun domain allows you to spend a turn attempt on a greater turning. Neither one offers an additional turning pool, so while flavorful, not really helping much on DMM.

DMM Persist takes 7 turn attempts.

[dantiesilva]

O wow....thats alot for just 1 spell...its basically useless.

[mattie_p]

O wow....thats alot for just 1 spell...its basically useless.

That's why you need the other turning pools to do it "right." Three pools is relatively easy to pull off, then stacking turns through extra turning + items is cake.

[dantiesilva]

Well that ruins all my fun I was going to have...Taking one more level in RSoP for glory domain, then taking one level of Contemplative for a free domain of my choice and finishing up in church inquisitor ending with 6 or 7 domains and buffs that last all days. Any way to make this work then with the build I have so far?

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=437705

[mattie_p]

At ECL 10 you can get three turning pools. You can get two without loosing cleric casting levels. At ECL 8 you can grab sacred exorcist 1, which does not require turning, stacks turning if you already have it, and explicitly grants it if you do not have it. Which is why you take a substitution level or the Destroy Undead ACF from Expedition to Castle ravenloft. A Sub level or that ACF will trade turn undead for a similar feature which can be used for divine feats, including DMM.

Then you can dip Death Delver or Dread Necromancer for rebukes, which can also be used for DMM, but you lose a cleric caster level. It can be worth it.

Extra turning boosts all turning pools, so if you have three turning pools you get three times the fun.

Lesser aasimar gives +2 CHA and +2 wis for no LA. You lose a feat but with proper domain selection you can easily make up for that.

[Douglas]

No, it just takes a substantially greater investment than you realized. Really optimized DMM (Persist) builds tend to have multiple dozens of Turn Undead uses per day, and just as many uses of Rebuke Undead, one of a few different alternate class features that replace Turn Undead and can explicitly be used in its place for Divine feats, or both. It helps that anything that boosts uses per day of one ability also boosts the others for free. Oh, and don't forget the base 3/day from having the ability at all.

[dantiesilva]

sadly game has started so i can only add on to what I have not change anything. And I truthfully don't want to give up all my domains. But if i took 1 level of say Death delver i would technically get 6 more turn attempts, or would it have to be from DN? And i actually need to fix my sheet i have 114 turn attempts. 6 from just the cleric, 4 from night sticks,4 from extra turning.

[Douglas]

Optimized DMM (Persist) usage:
3/day base
3/day from charisma
2/day from casting Eagle's Splendor
2/day from Reliquary Holy Symbol
4/day from Nightstick
16/day from 4 Extra Turning feats
= 30/day total

Turning pools:
Destroy Undead alternate class feature from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
Turn Undead from Sacred Exorcist PrC in Complete Divine
Rebuke Undead from Death Delver PrC in Heroes of Horror

That's 90 total, enough to power 12 persistent spells.

In order to do this, you will need the Undeath and Planning domains, with no feats to spare. If your DM allows flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), taking two of those may help. Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) is recommended for getting Knowledge Devotion without having to give much up.
1
Now, with regard to your existing character:
Get a Reliquary Holy Symbol. It's in the Magic Item Compendium, quite cheap at 1000 gp, and would give you 3 extra Turn attempts per day. I only list it as 2 above because it only gives the 3rd one if you have Improved Turning, which my example build forgoes in favor of another Extra Turning.

Cast Eagle's Splendor right before your morning buffing. The temporary increase does count for uses per day.

Dipping Death Delver would double everything. If you have 14 uses of Turn Undead, Death Delver would get you 14 uses of Rebuke Undead. If you have 50 uses of Turn Undead, Death Delver gets you 50 uses of Rebuke Undead. This is why getting multiple turning pools is so important.

See if you can talk your DM into allowing you to retrain to swap Turn Undead for Destroy Undead. There are a small number of other options that would be equivalent for this, but I think they all require a different race. Then dip one level in Sacred Exorcist to get Turn Undead back.

Aside from that, just start throwing more feats at Extra Turning when you can.

[Snowbluff]

Holy Transformation's (SPC) bonuses are all sacred. Stacks with Righteous Might and Divine Power.

[dantiesilva]

so i could have 2/day leaving me a 2 point pool as long one is eagles splendor. And dies chain spell increase the amount I need to use for turn attempts?

[mattie_p]

You don't need to persist eagle's splendor, just cast it before you do your daily buffs to get the turn attempts. Use those first.

[dantiesilva]

good point, and i know what domain i am taking next, time to get permanency.

[ahenobarbi]

You don't need to persist eagle's splendor, just cast it before you do your daily buffs to get the turn attempts. Use those first.

You can't spend them first. Turns are tracked by recording used turn attempts each day. If you want to make a turn attempt you compare used turn attempts to tun attempts per day you can currently make.

This is not a problem if you want to use your turn attempts only for DMM: persist but may be troublesome if you want it for something else (DMM:Quicken, divine spell power).

[dantiesilva]

No I only am using them at this point to persist, later on to chain the persists until I have them all Made permanent. The next Two levels I choose will be RSoP and Contemplative, for glory and time domain.. After that I will take 1 of death delver for the rebuke undead to make it 28 per day.
11RSoP
12Contemplative ( Chain spell)
13Death delver
14Church inquister
15 church inquisitor (Nimbus of light)
16RSoP
17Mythic exampler of Orsos
18 Mythic exampler of Orsos ( Exalted turning)
19 Risen Martyr
20 Mythic exampler of Orsos

Each one grants me something useful.
11 grants glory domain
12 gives me Time domain
13 14 more attempts
14 Immune to compulsion
15 Force shaoechange
16 Maximize healing
17 +1 on fortitude saves
18+20 base speed
19 all dice get rerolled at d12s no con score and become deathless
20 +2 fortitude save (going by the wording) +6 favored enemy bonus against Chaotic outsiders

How does that look, eventually my spells being made permanent will make the persist not relevant, but by that time not much should matter. And saying I only lose 2 levels of cleric spellcasting, I do not think that is so bad.

[eggs]

19 all dice get rerolled at d12s no con score and become deathless
Those are abilities, but they're abilities that make a character worse.

You might want to rethink Risen Martyr. It's not balanced against other classes. It's balanced against "being dead," and it doesn't always make that comparison well.

[dantiesilva]

any suggestion then? Becaus ewith no con bonus d12s look great to me. And saying most of my other abilities also make me not die the only other class i could take is mythic exampler without losing a caster level.

[Douglas]

d12 is great, yes, but on average it is statistically equivalent to d4+4. If you have 18 constitution, you'd have to have a friggin' WIZARD's hit die for losing con bonus to even be a fair trade. As a cleric with d8s, a measly 14 con makes it worthless, and anything 16 and up makes it a downgrade. With your buffs you should be hitting 20+ constitution easily.

Also, I don't remember Risen Martyr actually advancing casting at all, so unless my memory is off you'd be losing caster levels too.

[eggs]

Divine Disciple, Divine Oracle and Paragnostic Apostle are always safe filler levels.

I'd also reconsider Mythic Exemplar. It gives up 2 caster levels for 1/day typed speed and constitution bonuses. Each is coming at the cost of a level 9 spell, which I'm sure is going to do more for you than moving 20 extra feet 1/day (even if you use the level 9 slot to prepare a level 3 Knight's Move spell, you still come out ahead) or getting a +2 Fortitude save for a couple rounds.

[dantiesilva]

I would be comfortable with Paragnostic Apostle instead of that, though I would not be using many of the ailities of the class.