Evil scrolls?

[Tahujdt]

I just started a D&D group, and I have written a little starting adventure to teach them about various elements. The adventure takes place in a kobold cave. In the very back, if the players can get past a kobold shaman, there is a shrine to the kobold gods. In amongst the loot there is a clerical scroll with some healing spells. Would using that scroll be an evil act, since it draws power from the kobold gods? If so, is the scroll inherently evil?

[theUnearther]

I think it says somewhere that using a spell with the [Evil] descriptor is always an evil act, while using one with the [Good] descriptor is, surprise, a good act.
That is why deities of good/evil do not provide their followers with [Evil/Good] spells. (That is why Pelor cannot be good).
Same for [Chaos] and [Law], of course.
So, as the various Cure spells are neither, they can be provided by any deity. I do not think it would have to be an aligned act of any sort, mechanically.

Now if you meant whether they are exempt from ever being evil, I did not say that. If you cannot think of a situation where a Cure spell would be an evil act, I have a single word for you: Torture.


And lastly, if you want the scrolls to be evil, just make it so. They ping the Paladinsense, they are eeeeevil.
And if you want them to not be evil but for their use to be, just make them intelligent magic items. Using the scrolls will make them not magical anymore, which would be reasonably equivalent to killing the intelligence inside.

[Gamer Girl]

By Core a spell is just a spell. So if they find a spell called cure light wounds on a scroll, it's 'just a spell'. The scrolls of Zork the death god are the same as Sally the happy god.

The only spells that ''call upon the power of a single god'' are the special one god only spells.

In general, using a [Healing] spell is not an evil act. Unless the healing sell does something like ''drain the life force of an unwilling subject to heal another''.


Now, you could very well put an evil scroll back there, say on a gold dragon scale, with a nice custom evil spell or two for use by the kobolds.

[ahenobarbi]

And if you want them to not be evil but for their use to be, just make them intelligent magic items. Using the scrolls will make them not magical anymore, which would be reasonably equivalent to killing the intelligence inside.


Can't do that by rules.


Only permanent magic items (as opposed to single-use items or those with charges) can be intelligent.

[Gamer Girl]

Can't do that by rules.

Well, assuming your not a slave to the rules for some reason...you can do that.


But even if you ''must'' follow the rules, there is no reason you can't have an evil intelligent scroll magic item...it just would not be a ''single use item'', it would be a permanent item.

[ahenobarbi]

Well, assuming your not a slave to the rules for some reason...you can do that.


But even if you ''must'' follow the rules, there is no reason you can't have an evil intelligent scroll magic item...it just would not be a ''single use item'', it would be a permanent item.

There are many good reasons to follow rules. One of them is that changing rules without careful consideration is likely to break game.

[00dlez]

I always find that there is a lot of gray area in this realm, and as the DM, you should go with what ever works best for you and your group.

As the Unearther mentioned above, spells with the [Evil] descriptor are evil spells, and this is typically true... typically...

Check out the Deathwatch spell (page 217 of the Players Handbook), it's a Necromantic, [Evil] descriptor spell.

I once had a cleric/paladin character (LG alignment) try to use the spell to scan a burning building for signs of life, as the spell would tell me if there was anyone still alive, dead, and their general condition so the party could figure a way to get them out.

Is that an evil act, to use the spell in that way? Rules-as-written (RAW) would indicate that it is, but with the ability to house rule I would suggest making up a system that works for you.

In your case with the Kobald scrolls, if you want them to be an evil act, you could describe their use as going like this:
"Using the Kobald scroll, you begin to draw the life out of the area around you and funnel it into PLAYER X; the air grows a bit stale, flowers and grass nearby wilts a bit, and swirls of black energy encompass your hand and flow into PLAYER X's wounds, slowly closing them."

It would function normally, but give the players an idea that it may have some less than desireable undertones.

TL;DR - Do what you are comfortable with, these rules are very maliable and can change based on the tone of the game.

[TuggyNE]

Check out the Deathwatch spell (page 217 of the Players Handbook), it's a Necromantic, [Evil] descriptor spell.

I once had a cleric/paladin character (LG alignment) try to use the spell to scan a burning building for signs of life, as the spell would tell me if there was anyone still alive, dead, and their general condition so the party could figure a way to get them out.

Is that an evil act, to use the spell in that way? Rules-as-written (RAW) would indicate that it is, but with the ability to house rule I would suggest making up a system that works for you.

Deathwatch is normally considered a bug in the system; it does not fit the usual guidelines for [evil] spells, and the only reason it has the descriptor seems to be some careless editor in the 3.5 upgrade noticing it was a Necromancy spell. I wouldn't use it as an example of when to bend the rules, but as an example of when the rules have obvious flaws that are easy to correct.


But even if you ''must'' follow the rules, there is no reason you can't have an evil intelligent scroll magic item...it just would not be a ''single use item'', it would be a permanent item.

In which case it would detect as evil, but its use would not be an evil act. Also, just what is a "permanent scroll", anyway? :smallconfused:

[elonin]

Do what is enjoyable for everyone and helps make the story you want to make. You might make the scroll using the rules for living spell (can't remember what the source for that is). Or have the intelligence reside in the scroll material itself. If this is something from a god level power the rules are eminently breakable. Personally I'd make a reusable scroll, perhaps like a eternal wand 1 charge daily. While carried the scroll continues its mission of corrupting the character carrying it.

[Morithias]

I know a way to make the scrolls evil! Have them made via Dark gp or Dark xp (sacrifice rules in BOVD) it makes the item considered evil regardless of what it is.

[Gamer Girl]

There are many good reasons to follow rules. One of them is that changing rules without careful consideration is likely to break game.

Um.......gosh, I can't even respond to that......



In which case it would detect as evil, but its use would not be an evil act. Also, just what is a "permanent scroll", anyway? :smallconfused:

Well, in my Broken Game, I'm fine with having permanent scrolls. A permanent scroll is just ''a single page spellbook'' really.. But I could also see a scroll that is an intelligent item and rewrites itself every day too.

But for real fun...I'd make the evil 'permanent scroll' a pealist(living carnivorous paper) and have it only rewitre it's spell, in blood after it has fed...muhahahahaa!

[theUnearther]

So, a permanent scroll can cast the spell, or is it for preparing purposes only?
Because if it's the later, just staple it to your spellbook.
And if it's the former, it's just an Eternal Wand. Except in scroll form. And I think those are 3 times per day.


Also, the original poster said "I started a group". I took that to mean that he was the game master, so yes, of course I assumed he can throw away the rules at will. And I really struggle to see just HOW this one can break anything. So some things are intelligent. It won't make any difference, balance-wise.

Also note that making it permanent kinda defeats my original point, which was that you cannot get the spell without murdering the underlying intelligence.