Is Factotum ...Cheesy?

[silverwolfer]

I don't want to be the bad guy, but..how cheesy is it? I would really love to play it, but I don't want my DM breathing down my neck saying, hmmm your to useful , rocks fall on you and you die.


**Keypoint* I am only making a level 3 Factotum possibly on a 27 point build.

[eggs]

It has a lot of room for exploits and it rewards dumpster-divine heavily (it gets a lot from weird skills from obscure sources, a glitch with SLA casting times, setting-specific internet supplements), but truth be told, most Factotums I've seen outside solo environments would have been better served with Bard or Rogue.

Unless you're really stretching something, I wouldn't worry about breaking the game.

[Flickerdart]

Factotums shine in greasing the wheels that get the rest of the party between combat encounters, but are not stellar inside combat, for the most part.

[tuesdayscoming]

The problem with Factotum is generally not that it is too powerful. It will never, by any exploit I'm aware of, rival the power of even a tier 2 caster. It is a solid tier 3.

The issue I've seen with them is also their greatest strength: their versatility. Sure, you will almost always be relevant to what's going on. But other party members may feel like you're stepping on their toes and stealing the limelight when it should, by all rights, be someone else's time to shine.

edit: Obviously, with a modicum of self restraint, you should be able to keep this from ever being a real problem.

[silverwolfer]

So it is a social/roleplay class, not as much a useful item within combat.

[tuesdayscoming]

So it is a social/roleplay class, not as much a useful item within combat.

No, they can also be very capable combatants. With a careful build, you can be a top-notch chain tripper, for instance.

[killianh]

I wouldn't call it cheesy on its own, maybe with some multiclass shenans or using it for early entry tricks it can be, but that has nothing to do with the class.

Really it fall under one of those "what the X should have been" kind of classes. In this case it does what a rogue should do. All skills, a little bit of this and that picked up (the spells, turn undead, etc), and can put their roguely knowledge to use and exert themselves to do better at something depending on the situation.

I find its easier to keep a factotum balanced with the party than a rogue. Rogue either sucks or puts out more damage than the primary melee, plus has all of the skills and whatnot (especially UMD)

[lsfreak]

I have never played one, seen one played, or even really know the class features. My understanding, however, is that it's cheesy in the same way many other classes are cheesy: there are one or two obscure things you can use to break the action economy/expected damage/WBL. But without intentionally setting out to do those things, they're perfectly reasonable.

[Incorrect]

At low levels you will be awesome because in any situation, you are exactly what the group needs, as you can fill any role. Perhaps not as good as a focused character, but well enough for low levels.
But once you pass into mid levels, you really only have superior skills to rely on.
Skills such as UMD...!

Of cause one of these skills can also be Injitsu Focus, and optimizing that will give you a great direct damage option.

I dont feel that factotum is cheesy, but in my groups Injitsu Focus is really pushing into the smelly territory.

[killianh]

At low levels you will be awesome because in any situation, you are exactly what the group needs, as you can fill any role. Perhaps not as good as a focused character, but well enough for low levels.
But once you pass into mid levels, you really only have superior skills to rely on.
Skills such as UMD...!

Of cause one of these skills can also be Injitsu Focus, and optimizing that will give you a great direct damage option.

I dont feel that factotum is cheesy, but in my groups Injitsu Focus is really pushing into the smelly territory.

Actually the spells and the like stay pretty useful, besides by mid levels in any class you have probably already gone into a PrC (for factotum I would recommend chameleon)

[Incorrect]

Yes, the few spells you will have are useful. But mostly when you have just that spell the wizard didnt prepare.

Of cause you can go through all the spell lists and find spells at reduced spell level. Haste as a 1. level spell? That will always be useful!
But is it cheesy? Personally I'd say its in the grey area.


If we consider other classes in the mix, I'm sure that factotum is an essential part of some complicated and infinitely cheesy build somewhere :smallwink:

[IdleMuse]

The Font of Inspiration feat is pretty cheesy.

[Waddacku]

Of cause you can go through all the spell lists and find spells at reduced spell level. Haste as a 1. level spell? That will always be useful!
But is it cheesy? Personally I'd say its in the grey area.

Doesn't really matter, they cast from the Sorc/Wiz list.

[sonofzeal]

Posibilities for abuse:

Font of Inspiration stacking. If you use Flaws, these can get out of control. Changing FoI so only adds +2 IP each time is usually reasonable.

Iaijutsu Focus. This obscure skill was probably never considered on them, and significantly increases their melee potency. On the other hand, if your group optimizes moderately heavily, it might actually be warranted to keep up in that arena. Depends on the group, I guess.

SLA technicality abuse. SLAs default to standard-action casting times, meaning a clever Factotum (is there any other kind?) can cast some long-duration spells with ease. Banning this entirely is usually reasonable.

Gestalt. Factotums are one of the best classes in the game in gestalt, magnifying their other side's power out of all control. This is obviously not an issue in non-gestalt games though.




...other than that, yeah, they're fine. Plenty of classes have far more issues, and these are generally easily handled or might not even come up in the first place. Steer clear of them, and the class is just a Rogue with more flexibility.

[Axier]

The factotum, on its own, with no solid plan behind cheesing it, is not cheesy.

I prefer it because it is just as versitile as a spellcaster when mid to low op'd, but does not focus on stepping on people's toes as much as a batman wizard.

What you want to do is focus on nothing, Iaijutsu focus and maybe a few things to keep you mildly combat ready no matter what, and just be prepared for handling everything.

Switch it up for every combat on a dime, the main perfection of factotum is that you can do a lot, ALL THE TIME. Unlike Chameleon, which has to take time to get into a role, you can twist on a dime. Rely on the basics first, and then change it up when something goes meh.

For example, a party with a cleric, warblade, and rogue are with you. The rogue handles the DPS, but could use an evasive flanking partner. The warblade goes and fights the bigest badguy around, because he thinks he is cool (possibly right), but you and the rogue with both sneak attackers at the time, dispatch of the lesser enemies quickly enough that you can back him up, but the cleric goes down from some errant spellcaster who was designed by the DM to put CODzilla in his place most likely. You can then rush over, heal the cleric, and get back to the fight. You can now help the warblade get to the tossed in spellcaster, while the rogue and cleric wallop whats left of the brawler.

Because of you, you have assisted the rogue, making his job easier, but not irrelevent. Healed the Cleric, who due to his optimization and clerical obsession might have drawn unwanted attention, and assisted the Warblade to take out the major threats on the party. You might not be that wannabe ninja superstar, but you made yourself important to your party as a whole.

Also, an extra pair of eyes on traps and locks is a good thing.

And this is only a fraction of what you can do, you will always be relevent, but never an absolute.

Or you can focus on one thing that your party is lacking and be some kind of superstar.

[shadow_archmagi]

Factotums aren't really cheesy. They're good at everything, but not overwhelmingly so. Most DMs won't say "Whoa whoa whoa- You can hit for 3/4ths the damage of the fighter AND make a DC 30 jump check?"

[Novawurmson]

Factotums aren't really cheesy. They're good at everything, but not overwhelmingly so. Most DMs won't say "Whoa whoa whoa- You can hit for 3/4ths the damage of the fighter AND make a DC 30 jump check?"

*Talk with Your DM Before Playing X always applies. Very new/inexperienced/control-oriented DMs may feel this way. Only saying so because my current DM regularly and intentionally gave NPCs terrible optimization choices to make them feel more "real" and then blamed the party for over-optimizing. Thankfully, he got better.

[Korivan]

In my experience, on their own, they are not overly powerful. Good support role.
Possible cheesy depending on DM, player, and mid to higher level.
However, when using gestalt rules, I've seen factotum blow almost everyone else out of the water when combined with any other INT based class.

[Dairuga]

Just to get this thrown out there, no, Factotums are not that cheesy. And even with a bit of optmization, I found that they really are not all that cheesy, still. They are the Jack of all trades, or in this case; Master of all trades once per day, take your pick.

One thing that people sometimes overlook; A factotum can only boost his individual skills -once- per day. Yeah, at level 5, you can add 5 to your jump check (Possibly making it a rank 6 skill for you, as you need -one- point in any skill you wish to use your class ability on), meaning you can make a DC 25 jump check if you roll relatively high. You can do this, once per day.

You can pick a master-grade lock. Yeah, you get one attempt, per day. With a relatively good boost. You can disarm one trap per day, you can search a room very well, once per day, Etc, etc. Mind, while Factotum's inspirations points get refreshed with each encounter (Which I assume is every time you fight monsters), they only get to boost one skill -once- per day, not per encounter, so do not prepare yourself to step in as an extended rogue if you are sneaking trough a mansion on impulse, late at night, and your wizard did not prepare "Knock".

Secondly, the inspiration points. Yes, the Factotum gains Inspiration points per encounter. That is, per battle, to put it in an easy way. (That is at least the rules as how my group have ruled it). And the factotum gains, at level 5... Oh, 4 inspiration points. That means, you get to boost your attack once. You get to boost your damage -once-. And that was -one- attack made, and half your alloted points until the next time you get attacked are all gone. Do you wish to boost your AC against one attack? Do you wish to increase your Will save against a spell, perhaps? Oops, there all the points are gone, and the battle might be going into its second round, or third, and so on and so forth. If the factotum is to contribute to any battle, most of their points are going to vanish -very- quickly.

Casting any spell? That too, costs a point. Boosting any skill for after the combat? Yes, that costs a point, too. I do hope that you have some left over after combat, in case you wish to boost the diplomacy, or bluff check, should you get into a sticky situation. As many spells as you have prepared today, with every one costing an inspiration point to cast, it hardly goes into the realm of overpowered.

Oh, but at higher levels, they are sure to get more Inspiration points, right? Yeah, no. At level 10, they have a whooping -5- points. That's right. At level 5, they have 4 points. At level 10, they have 5 points. That tells you something about the growth of the inspiration points. They gain one point every three levels, and once people start casting out level 5 spells, and charging into frays with multiple attacks and so on and so forth... You -need- the extra kick to stay effective in battle.

People say that Iaijutsu focus makes a Factotum smell like stinky cheese, at times. And at this point, I will have to digress. Yes, it gives them a tremendous damage output.. once per day. Of course, you -can- use Iaijutsu focus more than once per day, as long as you get flatfooted enemies (That is, enemies without 5 ranks in balance, for when you cast grease), or if you pull out Gnomish Quickrazors and start striking them with the hidden blade, but still. Without the factotum boost, at level 10, you will, at decently-maxed stats, have 13 ranks in Iaijutsu focus. If you roll a d20, and say, score a 12 (For average), that's 25 in your Iajutsu roll. 28, with 16 in Charisma, if you got that much. Given that a Facottum is entirely reliant on Int, you do not have much of stats to spare in the Charisma pool.

That translates to 4d6 bonus damage. You get this, once, per enemy, on a usual basis. That is equavilent to the rogue's sneak attack, once per enemy, whereas the rogue can sneak attack whenever they have a flanking partner, on every attack. And casting Grease costs you one point as well, so if you wish to make someone flat-footed (Assuming you did not win initiative), you need to cast Grease, costing one point, and then Decide to Insipirate up your Iajutsu, along with boosting your attack roll, and damage roll? That's four points spent, just like that. Definitive burst, then you have not much else to do, for the rest of that battle.

And as many says; Font of inspiration is really cheesy. And I have to ask, is it; really? Font of inspiration is a -drain- for your feats, and exists only to absorb most of the feats you get trough your career to give you the Inspiration points you so sorely need. At first, it gives you 1 Inspiration point, for one feat. Then, the next one grants you 2 inspiration points. And the next one; 3! You can see how this adds up, really quickly. Why, after having spent -three- feats that do nothing but give you more points to play with; you have now doubled your alloted pool! Surely, that must be so amazingly gamebreaking, right? It lets you pull on -two- rounds of combat, or perhaps even three. Or, it leaves you with 3-4 points to spend outside of combat, in case you want to do something cool like really shining in that one knowledge check, or making that dastardly jump; or convincing someone they really need to buy your frying pan.

Mind you, Font of inspiration is limited to your int modifier. So you cannot make a level 6 Factotum, say that you want to play a human with two flaws, and take all points in Font of Inspiration. That does not work. If you start the game with 17 delicious Int, you can, at level 10, have a max of 4 Fonts of Inspiration on your character. But considering that 4 FoI are 4 FoI, that's still the majority of your feats down the drain. And god forbid you if you cannot take flaws. Then you will have to spend every feat during your leveling process to get it.

And the most cheesy trigger that most people call out Factotums on. At level 8, they can go NOVA! Oh -yes-. At level 8, they can spend inspiration points to take more standard actions per turn. At the cost of -3- points for an extra action. Think of those that -does not- take Font of Inspiration. Think of them. they have 5 points. And they just spend 3 of them to take another action, perhaps to cast grease, and then their last, precious point in boosting Iajutsu for one attack; assuming it hits. Factotums -need-, mostly, to take Font of Inspiration if they wish to have the points to play around with, at higher levels.

Thirdly, people say that Factotums can just pick up any spell from any spell list, and that they can net themselves Haste as a level 1 spell. This is wrong, as a person above me pointed out, they cast their spells as Wiz/Sorcs. It is a common misconception, and is not true. What they are thinking about, are the Chameleon class, not the Factotum. The chameleon class, which Factotums often build into, get any spell list they want, and can memorize spells from them, meaning that if they memorize the Trapsmith's Haste, it is indeed a level 1 spell.

(And if your Factotum wishes to play a Chameleon, prepare to waste your Human bonus feat on "Able learner", because that is a prerequisite to enter, so that is one more feat wasted; given that Able learner is completely useless on a Facottum. Some people believe Able Learner males -all- cross class skills class skills, due to Factotums having all skills as class skills, but that is, again, a misconception. ALl Able learner does, is to make cross-class skills cost 1 point, instead of 2. You can not raise them above the Half-your-max-level, as is usual for cross-class skills).

More, on restrictions of spells, the Factotum can only memorize one of each copy of spell, each day. And they can, if they get those spells back somehow, only cast each copy of said spell once per day, too. So even if they memorize Rary's mnemonic enhancer, they can't get back those precious spells they spent. And neither can they stack up on Celerities to always give them more actions when they need them.

I do not think, all things considered, that Factotums are all that groundbreaking at all. If they take a metric butt-load of FoI's, they get a vast expanse of inspiration points, which makes them useful at high-levels too, in my experiences. If they spend 4 points on FoI, they gain a staggering amount of 10 bonus points, for a total of 15 Inspiration points at level 10. This means that, they could cast 2-3 spells, add their INT score to the attack and damage 3 times per day, make their Iajutsu shine for once per day, and still have 2 points left over, for any misc situations that needs a sudden expert. Or, if they boost their to-hit and damage slightly less, they can take one extra action over the course of the battle, or so on and so forth.

The Iaijutsu focus helps them stay competetive damage-wise, if they get it in on the enemy while they are still flat-footed, and as it is mostly only available to deal damage to enemies once or twice during an encounter, the rogue I played with had him as his favourite flanking buddy, letting them shred their singled-out enemy together, considering luck was on their side. I have never seen a Factotum manage to -break- the game by cheesing out on FoI's, or come near to do it, and the party was downright glad he had taken it, as those extra points have saved them on some occations.

At least, this is my opinion on the Factotums, so here you have my two copper pieces on the topic.

[Rubik]

(And if your Factotum wishes to play a Chameleon, prepare to waste your Human bonus feat on "Able learner", because that is a prerequisite to enter, so that is one more feat wasted; given that Able learner is completely useless on a Facottum. Some people believe Able Learner males -all- cross class skills class skills, due to Factotums having all skills as class skills, but that is, again, a misconception. ALl Able learner does, is to make cross-class skills cost 1 point, instead of 2. You can not raise them above the Half-your-max-level, as is usual for cross-class skills).Actually, once a skill is a class skill for one class then the CC-cap is broken. Skills that aren't class skills for a class still cost 2 skill points per rank, which Able Learner fixes.

[Gavinfoxx]

Just consider the Factotum to be the Rogue 2.0, and you are fine.

[Dairuga]

Actually, once a skill is a class skill for one class then the CC-cap is broken. Skills that aren't class skills for a class still cost 2 skill points per rank, which Able Learner fixes.

...Upon closer inspection of the Player's guide, so it seems. And here I have always been playing it so that only the class you leveled up currently, that is, the class you took your latest level in, counts as class skills, and the others are always counted as cross-class, leaving you unable to, say, take points in Use magic device as a level 10 character, if your tenth level was, say, a Barbarian.

Thank you quite for the explanation, and I must agree, that was a rather embarrasing slip-up of mine. But still, The able learner feat aside, as much as it makes the Factotum / Multiclass X better, I do believe my point still stands, to most of its degree.

[NichG]

On the other hand, if you rule that an encounter is any meaningful scene break, then Factotums rule utility during downtime. Generally speaking, I'd say Factotums become cheesy easier than other classes if you want to push them there. But if you don't go there, they're not cheesy at all.

What I mean is, someone who is playing a cheesy factotum will use the quickrazors with Iaijutsu focus and a Iaijutsu-boosting magic item and maybe Guidance of the Avatar and thats just the surface. Dark Chaos shuffle to get a bunch of Font of Inspiration - six shouldn't be a problem - and get a couple standard actions at the start of the fight. But most people aren't going to pull Dark Chaos shuffle stuff, and for them Font of Inspiration is pretty expensive.

Factotum also has a few problems with ambiguous rules (such as 'what is an encounter' to start), and depending on how the DM rules that can drastically affect its abilities. For instance, one reading would let you spend Inspiration for 1d6 sneak attack one-for-one up to arbitrary amounts. Is it the most powerful thing to do? Well, not really, but it again goes towards the ability to nova. The other reading is that you can only do it once, which is pretty limited when you consider you can get 2d6 sneak attack indefinitely for a stance.

[killianh]

On the other hand, if you rule that an encounter is any meaningful scene break, then Factotums rule utility during downtime. Generally speaking, I'd say Factotums become cheesy easier than other classes if you want to push them there. But if you don't go there, they're not cheesy at all.

What I mean is, someone who is playing a cheesy factotum will use the quickrazors with Iaijutsu focus and a Iaijutsu-boosting magic item and maybe Guidance of the Avatar and thats just the surface. Dark Chaos shuffle to get a bunch of Font of Inspiration - six shouldn't be a problem - and get a couple standard actions at the start of the fight. But most people aren't going to pull Dark Chaos shuffle stuff, and for them Font of Inspiration is pretty expensive.

Factotum also has a few problems with ambiguous rules (such as 'what is an encounter' to start), and depending on how the DM rules that can drastically affect its abilities. For instance, one reading would let you spend Inspiration for 1d6 sneak attack one-for-one up to arbitrary amounts. Is it the most powerful thing to do? Well, not really, but it again goes towards the ability to nova. The other reading is that you can only do it once, which is pretty limited when you consider you can get 2d6 sneak attack indefinitely for a stance.

I usually rule that factotums need to take a 5 minute rest like initiators from ToB to 'refresh' their points. Even if all they have is fonts of inspiration I find they end up being no more useful utility-wise than any caster.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I usually rule that factotums need to take a 5 minute rest like initiators from ToB to 'refresh' their points. Even if all they have is fonts of inspiration I find they end up being no more useful utility-wise than any caster.

nitpick: ToB actually suggests a one-minute break in the action to refresh maneuvers readied, Pg 40 under Refreshing Maneuvers.

[killianh]

nitpick: ToB actually suggests a one-minute break in the action to refresh maneuvers readied, Pg 40 under Refreshing Maneuvers.

I'm aware, I just use a similar mechanic with a longer time span to reflect how hard it is to refresh inspiration and similar abilities. I apologise for being less specific (before any jumps to conclusion I'm not being sarcastic, I should have explained the differences in mechanics used)

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm aware, I just use a similar mechanic with a longer time span to reflect how hard it is to refresh inspiration and similar abilities. I apologise for being less specific (before any jumps to conclusion I'm not being sarcastic, I should have explained the differences in mechanics used)

Complaint withdrawn.

Happy gaming. :smallsmile:

[Lonely Tylenol]

Just to get this thrown out there, no, Factotums are not that cheesy. And even with a bit of optmization, I found that they really are not all that cheesy, still. They are the Jack of all trades, or in this case; Master of all trades once per day, take your pick.

One thing that people sometimes overlook; A factotum can only boost his individual skills -once- per day. Yeah, at level 5, you can add 5 to your jump check (Possibly making it a rank 6 skill for you, as you need -one- point in any skill you wish to use your class ability on), meaning you can make a DC 25 jump check if you roll relatively high. You can do this, once per day.

You can pick a master-grade lock. Yeah, you get one attempt, per day. With a relatively good boost. You can disarm one trap per day, you can search a room very well, once per day, Etc, etc. Mind, while Factotum's inspirations points get refreshed with each encounter (Which I assume is every time you fight monsters), they only get to boost one skill -once- per day, not per encounter, so do not prepare yourself to step in as an extended rogue if you are sneaking trough a mansion on impulse, late at night, and your wizard did not prepare "Knock".

At low levels, the best bonuses from your skills aren't from Cunning Knowledge; they're from Brains Over Brawn. By level 3, you are adding your INT bonus to your STR- and DEX-based skills. This means that, with good ability scores (and maybe a point in the ones you actually make, for posterity), you are basically passing all your physical skills. Grey Elf is a good way to describe this: let's say you are a Grey Elf with an INT of 18 and DEX of 14 (pre-racial mods). This isn't unreasonable at any point buy, as these *should* be your two main attributes, with only light armor proficiency in hand. With adjusted ability scores of 20 INT and 16 DEX, you already have a +8 to your DEX-based skills, without burning any skill points or inspiration. With a balance pole (a masterwork tool in Complete Adventurer), you could take 10 on a Balance check of DC20 or less, meaning that you could, without fail, balance on any surface as narrow as 1 inch wide. If you had 5 ranks in Balance (which you both want and can afford), you could balance on a 1-inch-wide surface that is severely obstructed, or on a severe incline or decline, on a 10 (which means as long as you are not rushed or threatened). The same is true for Open Lock checks: with only 1 rank in each skill (the minimum required to make the check) and masterwork thieves' tools, you could take 20 on the check for a result of 31, which is enough to crack a "good lock". This won't get you past an "amazing lock", which is a DC40 check, but that's also a DC40 check. At level three. By its definition, you shouldn't be making this check (or even the 30) without considerable investment anyway. Remember that your INT is fluid, as well; if you're putting 5 level bonuses into this character, wearing a +6 item, and reading a +5 tome, then you have a 36 INT, or a +18 to all your INT-, DEX-, and STR-based skills. Even with a poor DEX, you are making nearly every listed skill check pre-epic with a roll of 2 (even a 12 STR or DEX, or -any- other bonus to the skill, even a rank, makes this possible on a 1), so it's not something that becomes obsolete equickly or easily (especially as a passive bonus with no action cost).

In addition to this, you do also get the use of inspiration points via Cunning Knowledge, but this isn't really noteworthy at low levels. At high levels, though? Fantastic. You're telling me that, after 15 levels in Factotum, I can add a +15 to any skill in which I have a rank? Keep in mind that this doesn't make your total skill ranks equal to your level; it adds it as a bonus. Thus, if you're level 15, and you have 18 ranks in Diplomacy, and you use Cunning Knowledge for a +15 bonus, you suddenly have a +33 in your Diplomacy check. Plus your CHA, plus all miscellaneous bonuses. If I have 18 CHA (not unreasonable at level 15) and a Circlet of Persuasion, and *nothing* else, I can take 10 and make a Helpful person a Fanatic. If actual optimization was happening here? Fuggeddaboutit.


Secondly, the inspiration points. Yes, the Factotum gains Inspiration points per encounter. That is, per battle, to put it in an easy way. (That is at least the rules as how my group have ruled it). And the factotum gains, at level 5... Oh, 4 inspiration points. That means, you get to boost your attack once. You get to boost your damage -once-. And that was -one- attack made, and half your alloted points until the next time you get attacked are all gone. Do you wish to boost your AC against one attack? Do you wish to increase your Will save against a spell, perhaps? Oops, there all the points are gone, and the battle might be going into its second round, or third, and so on and so forth. If the factotum is to contribute to any battle, most of their points are going to vanish -very- quickly.

Casting any spell? That too, costs a point. Boosting any skill for after the combat? Yes, that costs a point, too. I do hope that you have some left over after combat, in case you wish to boost the diplomacy, or bluff check, should you get into a sticky situation. As many spells as you have prepared today, with every one costing an inspiration point to cast, it hardly goes into the realm of overpowered.

Oh, but at higher levels, they are sure to get more Inspiration points, right? Yeah, no. At level 10, they have a whooping -5- points. That's right. At level 5, they have 4 points. At level 10, they have 5 points. That tells you something about the growth of the inspiration points. They gain one point every three levels, and once people start casting out level 5 spells, and charging into frays with multiple attacks and so on and so forth... You -need- the extra kick to stay effective in battle.

Without Font of Inspiration, there really isn't a lot of longevity happening with the Factotum. This is true. However, it is worth noting that, in mid- to high-op games, actual combat (which is to say, combat in which the battle has not yet been decided, and there is a real risk of failure or death; in other words, combat that isn't clean-up) seldom lasts more than two, maybe three rounds, and in these cases, the Factotum will do just fine all combat, unless you are spending your Inspiration points every time you get the opportunity (which is just generally poor play).


People say that Iaijutsu focus makes a Factotum smell like stinky cheese, at times. And at this point, I will have to digress. Yes, it gives them a tremendous damage output.. once per day. Of course, you -can- use Iaijutsu focus more than once per day, as long as you get flatfooted enemies (That is, enemies without 5 ranks in balance, for when you cast grease), or if you pull out Gnomish Quickrazors and start striking them with the hidden blade, but still. Without the factotum boost, at level 10, you will, at decently-maxed stats, have 13 ranks in Iaijutsu focus. If you roll a d20, and say, score a 12 (For average), that's 25 in your Iajutsu roll. 28, with 16 in Charisma, if you got that much. Given that a Facottum is entirely reliant on Int, you do not have much of stats to spare in the Charisma pool.

That translates to 4d6 bonus damage. You get this, once, per enemy, on a usual basis. That is equavilent to the rogue's sneak attack, once per enemy, whereas the rogue can sneak attack whenever they have a flanking partner, on every attack. And casting Grease costs you one point as well, so if you wish to make someone flat-footed (Assuming you did not win initiative), you need to cast Grease, costing one point, and then Decide to Insipirate up your Iajutsu, along with boosting your attack roll, and damage roll? That's four points spent, just like that. Definitive burst, then you have not much else to do, for the rest of that battle.

Remember that Brains Over Brawn adds your INT modifier to all your DEX-based checks (not just skill checks), and that initiative is a DEX check. You should also be applying your Iaijutsu Focus damage against almost anybody you could be hitting on your first round (since a enemy that has not yet acted in combat is flat-footed until their first turn begins, and you *should* be going first or early in initiative). I don't know why you would waste Inspiration Points using Cunning Knowledge on Iaijustu Focus (which amounts to maybe +1d6 damage every 5 levels), as by the time you would get significant Iaijutsu Focus damage from the inspiration, you could, with a little optimization, already be approaching (or meeting) the point in which the cap is reached (meaning no bonus damage for you). Cunning Surge on the damage is less wasteful, but also not strictly necessary. As for the casting of Grease, sure, you could do it--or somebody else in the party could (or you could, quite easily I might add, UMD a scroll or wand). The point being, the fact that you could Grease the wheels on your Iaijutsu Focus damage is testament to the ability of the Factotum--but spending Inspiration on it is not even close to your best option.


And as many says; Font of inspiration is really cheesy. And I have to ask, is it; really? Font of inspiration is a -drain- for your feats, and exists only to absorb most of the feats you get trough your career to give you the Inspiration points you so sorely need. At first, it gives you 1 Inspiration point, for one feat. Then, the next one grants you 2 inspiration points. And the next one; 3! You can see how this adds up, really quickly. Why, after having spent -three- feats that do nothing but give you more points to play with; you have now doubled your alloted pool! Surely, that must be so amazingly gamebreaking, right? It lets you pull on -two- rounds of combat, or perhaps even three. Or, it leaves you with 3-4 points to spend outside of combat, in case you want to do something cool like really shining in that one knowledge check, or making that dastardly jump; or convincing someone they really need to buy your frying pan.

Mind you, Font of inspiration is limited to your int modifier. So you cannot make a level 6 Factotum, say that you want to play a human with two flaws, and take all points in Font of Inspiration. That does not work. If you start the game with 17 delicious Int, you can, at level 10, have a max of 4 Fonts of Inspiration on your character. But considering that 4 FoI are 4 FoI, that's still the majority of your feats down the drain. And god forbid you if you cannot take flaws. Then you will have to spend every feat during your leveling process to get it.

Remember that your INT modifier changes as you level. If you start the game with 17 INT (you should really try for 18 at level 1; Factotum needs an 18 in its main score more than most), by level 10, you could probably have an INT modifier of 6 quite easily: your base 17 INT, plus two points from level-up, plus a +4 item, amounts to a 23 INT. Really, you should only hit the cap on Font of Inspiration if you dumped INT, and it isn't really fair to judge Factotum's ability based on a stupid Factotum.

As for Font Inspiration, if I were, say, a level 13 Factotum, four Fonts of Inspiration (1, 3, 6, 9, with ambiguous race and Imperious Command at 12), I could use my 16 Inspiration Points to walk up, use a Cunning Knowledge-boosted Intimidate check (1 point) with the Never Outnumbered skill trick to fear-bomb everybody (causing them to cower in fear for 1 round), use an extra standard action (3 points) to cast Solid Fog (1 point), use an extra standard action (3 points) to cast Cloudkill (1 point), use an extra standard action (3 points) to cast Vortex of Teeth (1 point), and I have... What, three points left? I spend one on Perform (dance), giving an epic dance performance while my enemies suffer in their smoke-induced misery, and sit on the remaining two turns. My enemies, meanwhile, are cowering in fear for 1 round (during which they take 3d8 points of damage from Vortex of Teeth and probably 1d4 CON damage from Cloudkill), take their second round orienting themselves and moving 5-10 feet (during which they take 3d8 points of damage from Vortex of Teeth and 1d4 CON damage from Cloudkill), and... Well, you get the picture. With that many Inspiration points, when I go nova, I really go nova. I mean, sure, I could use 16 Inspiration points to give me 8 piddly bonuses to attack and damage rolls each, maybe get some Iaijutsu focus damage off... But why would I?


And the most cheesy trigger that most people call out Factotums on. At level 8, they can go NOVA! Oh -yes-. At level 8, they can spend inspiration points to take more standard actions per turn. At the cost of -3- points for an extra action. Think of those that -does not- take Font of Inspiration. Think of them. they have 5 points. And they just spend 3 of them to take another action, perhaps to cast grease, and then their last, precious point in boosting Iajutsu for one attack; assuming it hits. Factotums -need-, mostly, to take Font of Inspiration if they wish to have the points to play around with, at higher levels.

You just talked about Font of Inspiration in the last paragraph. Why would you ignore its existence here? I mean, sure, if you have 5 Inspiration points, and you're spending three getting a standard action (and the remaining two getting Iaijutsu Focus damage through a very inefficient means), then I guess you're going to run out of steam quickly... But do you know what my Factotum is going to have at level 9? Four instances of Font of Inspiration (more if flaws are allowed). Suddenly, 5 becomes 15. That's five extra standard actions (or three with a number of good uses for them).


Thirdly, people say that Factotums can just pick up any spell from any spell list, and that they can net themselves Haste as a level 1 spell. This is wrong, as a person above me pointed out, they cast their spells as Wiz/Sorcs. It is a common misconception, and is not true. What they are thinking about, are the Chameleon class, not the Factotum. The chameleon class, which Factotums often build into, get any spell list they want, and can memorize spells from them, meaning that if they memorize the Trapsmith's Haste, it is indeed a level 1 spell.

This is all true. It is part of what makes Chameleon synergistic for Human Factotums. Worth noting, though, that "only" being able to cast from the Sor/Wiz list means you're still casting from the best spell list in the game, and can prepare any spell on the list at the beginning of each day (whereas Wizards need to prepare from a spellbook with a limited, although adjustable, number of spells known, and the Sorcerer is more severely limited by a fixed spells known mechanic).


More, on restrictions of spells, the Factotum can only memorize one of each copy of spell, each day. And they can, if they get those spells back somehow, only cast each copy of said spell once per day, too. So even if they memorize Rary's mnemonic enhancer, they can't get back those precious spells they spent. And neither can they stack up on Celerities to always give them more actions when they need them.

I don't consider this much of a restriction; if a spell exists that I want to cast in multiples, I'll UMD a wand of it (and UMD is a class skill for Factotums).


I do not think, all things considered, that Factotums are all that groundbreaking at all. If they take a metric butt-load of FoI's, they get a vast expanse of inspiration points, which makes them useful at high-levels too, in my experiences. If they spend 4 points on FoI, they gain a staggering amount of 10 bonus points, for a total of 15 Inspiration points at level 10. This means that, they could cast 2-3 spells, add their INT score to the attack and damage 3 times per day, make their Iajutsu shine for once per day, and still have 2 points left over, for any misc situations that needs a sudden expert. Or, if they boost their to-hit and damage slightly less, they can take one extra action over the course of the battle, or so on and so forth.

I'm not sure where "per day" is coming from here, as Inspiration is a per-encounter resource (and only Cunning Knowledge has a limitation on it). This is what you will be doing in one fight; next combat, you get to do it all over again (or do something entirely different, if you so choose).


The Iaijutsu focus helps them stay competetive damage-wise, if they get it in on the enemy while they are still flat-footed, and as it is mostly only available to deal damage to enemies once or twice during an encounter, the rogue I played with had him as his favourite flanking buddy, letting them shred their singled-out enemy together, considering luck was on their side. I have never seen a Factotum manage to -break- the game by cheesing out on FoI's, or come near to do it, and the party was downright glad he had taken it, as those extra points have saved them on some occations.

I think you are sorely overestimating the role Iaijutsu Focus has on a Factotum's irrelevance, and sorely underestimating the role of Cunning Surge. To borrow an example, you could be doing Iaijutsu Focus much better with extra standard actions: if I had to put a single big enemy down, I would (if I won initiative, with 15 points of Inspiration) walk up, activate my Wand of Wraithstrike (at level 10, with 13 ranks, +4 CHA modifier, and a Circlet of Persuasion, I have a +20 on the check, and cannot fail), attack with a Cunning Knowledge-boosted Iaijutsu Focus check (1 point) against an AC of 10 (the enemy is both flat-footed and being hit with touch attacks), then use an extra standard action (3 points) to do it again four times (without the bonus from Cunning Knowledge). All with a +1 feycraft Gnommish quickrazor, of course.

With attack rolls of 10 (hit), 1 (auto-fail), 19 (threatens), 5 (confirms the threat), 10 (hit) and 10 (hit), I connect four times, doing (let's assume 12 STR) 4, 9, 3, and 3 weapon damage, and, with Iaijutsu Focus rolls (results) of 18 (48), 15 (35), 12 (32), and 20 (40), I do 27 (8d6), 24 (6d6), 19 (5d6) and 22 (7d6) for a total of 111 damage. Not game-ending by any stretch, but I did get four instances of Iaijutsu Focus damage out of it (which is great for single BBEGs), and I only didn't get five because of a critical miss (with +7 BAB and a +1 weapon, I would have succeeded on a 2).

Where such a Factotum would really shine, however, is using those extra standard actions to cast spells. One thing that the Wizard's action economy generally forbids him or her from doing is combining spells that have deadly effects together; the Factotum does not have this problem. Consider what might happen, for example, if you were to use 5 points (3 for Cunning Surge, 1 for each spell) to cast any two of Grease (1), Wall of Smoke (1), Web (2) Glitterdust (2), Slow (3), Sleet Storm (3), Stinking Cloud (3), Ice Storm (4), Solid Fog (4), Vortex of Teeth (4), Black Tentacles (4), Cloudkill (5), Transmute Rock to Mud (5), Transmute Mud to Rock (5), any of the Wall of X spells (4-6), or Forcecage (7) together at the same time. Imagine what you could do with Mind Fog (5) combined with Feeblemind (5), Mass Suggestion (6) or [i]Mass Hold Person (7)! The possibilities (once explored) are endless!

[GenghisDon]

Sorry, multiple uses of IF in a given combat is always cheesy

This doesn't make the class cheesy however

It IS headed towards a very different game mechanic philosophy with it's "inspiration points per encounter", as do TOB characters, and to a lesser extent TOM characters & even the warlock.

[prufock]

I'm not sure where "per day" is coming from here, as Inspiration is a per-encounter resource (and only Cunning Surge has a limitation on it).
Nitpick: Cunning Knowledge is explicitly 1/day per skill.

Factotum is my favourite class. It isn't overpowered or cheesy, but it does have some great tricks and is much fun to play. It's a solidly designed class with loads of versatility.

[Rubik]

Mind Over MatterI believe you mean Brains Over Brawn.

Other than that, bravo.

[eggs]

I mean, sure, I could use 16 Inspiration points to give me 8 piddly bonuses to attack and damage rolls each, maybe get some Iaijutsu focus damage off... But why would I?
Because it's the day's second encounter?

Even with a boatload of FoI allowing the Factotum to pull more than one or two tricks per encounter, its daily caps make the Bard look like a marathon runner.

[Axier]

Because it's the day's second encounter?

Even with a boatload of FoI allowing the Factotum to pull more than one or two tricks per encounter, its daily caps make the Bard look like a marathon runner.

Its daily caps are only on what, three things? His inspiration points refresh EACH encounter.

Cunning Knowledge (1/day for each skill you have a rank in)
Yea, he can only add his class level to a skill once per day, for each skill. That is a massive check increase on top of a skill, for a skill based class that has the ability to have a +10 in pretty much every skill long before 8th level, at a minimum. Especially if he has invested properly in resources.

Opportunistic Piety (3+Wis Mod/Day +1 for every 5 levels)
You can only heal several times a day, he should be a backup healer in the first place. Turning undead AS a cleric of your level is great for something that isn't cleric. Plus, its still based off of your INT mod.

Cunning Dodge (1/day)
Yea, you save yourself from something that could have made a TPK if it was just one AoE, or kill you otherwise. If this happens more than once a day, your DM is absolutely heartless and I think his/her objectives are to kill your team.

Oh, sorry, four things.

Cunning briliance (1/day per each of 3 class abilities.)
You mimmic any class ability available to a base class of level 15 or lower, and make it function at your class level. Sure, it is for one minute a day for each ability, but it gives you a massive amount of versitility. Yeah, its not the best 19th level ability, but it isn't hardly bad.

And then you have 7 other activated abilities, including one of the most action economy boosting abilities in the game, and you always have spells for an encounter. And about 3 constant abilities, including a massive boost to any Str and Dex based skill. I don't see the bard casting their spells all day, or having ALL skills as class skills, AND being able to change at the drop of a hat to fill a role temp wise.

[cagemarrow]

Factotum's can't cast spells all day? They get to cast each one once until they can rest for 8 hours and then get to choose them again and it still costs them an Inspiration point to do it. I still love the class though.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Nitpick: Cunning Knowledge is explicitly 1/day per skill.

Sorry; I actually meant to say Cunning Knowledge, and I'm not sure how Cunning Surge came up. I think after so many instances of "Cunning X" in the same post, late at night, with smartphone proofreading being what it is, I just didn't notice the mistake (and didn't care to). :smalltongue:

Will fix it now.


Factotum is my favourite class. It isn't overpowered or cheesy, but it does have some great tricks and is much fun to play. It's a solidly designed class with loads of versatility.

Agreed.


I believe you mean Brains Over Brawn.

Other than that, bravo.

Er, right, that. See above (though this is more egregious).

And thanks.


Because it's the day's second encounter?

Even with a boatload of FoI allowing the Factotum to pull more than one or two tricks per encounter, its daily caps make the Bard look like a marathon runner.

Yes, I suppose after the second or third encounter (but certainly not the first, at this level), you may have run out of spells... But Factotums have a multitude of other things they can do. Off the top of my head, the Factotum can use any of the social triumvirate (Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy) very well in combat with minimal investment, or they can UMD magic items, or use a combat maneuver (bull rush, trip, and overrun are all STR checks, which means you get your INT to all of them), or any combination of the above (Enlarging yourself and running in with a guisarme makes for a fast-and-easy tripper, though lacking in all the bells and whistles). Or, the Factotum can do any number of things to circumvent combat (scouting ahead, social intervention), or any number of things to compliment another member of the party (exact strategies may vary). The point is, at some point, you have to get imaginative with your Factotum, or else the flat, numerical bonuses to attack and damage are going to get VERY boring (and also trail off rather quickly).

[Big Fau]

Yes, the few spells you will have are useful. But mostly when you have just that spell the wizard didnt prepare.

I've actually found that the limited Polymorph spells (Trollshape, Body of War, etc) are excellent for a Factotum. Alter Self and Polymorph are always powerful spells, but the Factotum is very good once you start using those spells properly.

[ThiagoMartell]

The problem with Factotum is that it easily leads to you being better than anyone else in the party with all skills, which is very frustrating in any game that is not 100% dungeoncrawl. If you try not to step on anyone's toes, though, it works great.

[GenghisDon]

If you have to try to do that, there is a problem somewhere.

[Alabenson]

In general, I think it largely depends on the optimization level of your group; the Factotum is essentially to the Rogue what the Warblade is to the Fighter. If you find that the Tome of Battle is fine in your group, than the Factotum should be fine even with the Font of Inspiration feat.

[Curmudgeon]

The Factotum is a poorly-written class. The guy chiefly responsible, Mike Mearls, had only a vague understanding of the core rules, and didn't address conflicts when writing the class. To further muddy the waters he made up some FAQ answers regarding the Factotum that are demonstrably in conflict with the core rules (see here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070412a)). Those FAQ answers were obvious attempts at increasing the power of the Factotum after Dungeonscape had already undergone final editing by his superiors on the project.

So yes, the Factotum can be cheesy if you play fast and loose with the rules. Picking up 10 Fighter bonus feats with Cunning Brilliance because "it's reasonable to assume" that Bonus Feats is an Extraordinary class ability, or all the spellcasting of a 19th level character because "it's reasonable to assume" something similar is extremely cheesy. Allowing Cunning Strike to disregard the basic stacking rule is cheesy. There are cheesy exploits available involving Opportunistic Piety and feats powered by undead turn attempts. Reading Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) as granting a geometric progression of IPs, rather than that referring to the total IPs granted, is also cheesy.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Reading Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) as granting a geometric progression of IPs, rather than that referring to the total IPs granted, is also cheesy.

I'm sorry, I agree with the others here, but I think this is just wrong. Font of Inspiration is explicitly written just like, and functions just like, the Psionic Talent (http://dndtools.eu/feats/expanded-psionics-handbook--65/psionic-talent--2288/) feat, which does have a geometric scaling: "When you take this feat for the first time, you gain 2 power points. . . . You gain 3 power points if you take this feat a second time." Each mention refers to the individual instance of taking the feat, not the sum total of all gains from all instances of taking the feat. Font of Inspiration works the same, since it is written to work the same: you will gain 1 inspiration point the first time you take it, 2 points the second time (plus the first instance, for a total of 3), 3 inspiration points the third time (plus the two previous instances, for a total of 6), and so on.

[GenghisDon]

Do you think a psionic power point is equivalent to an inspiration point?

They seem better to me, but I'm curious.

Isn't psionic talent regarded as a bad feat, while font of inspiration inspires claims of brokenness?

[Venusaur]

Do you think a psionic power point is equivalent to an inspiration point?

They seem better to me, but I'm curious.

Isn't psionic talent regarded as a bad feat, while font of inspiration inspires claims of brokenness?

Let's put it this way. A level 20 factotum gets 10 inspiration points. A level 20 psion gets 343 plus bonus for intelligence. The factotum's reset per encounter, but I think this says something of the relative value of 1 point.

[Bloodgruve]

Factotum can be cheesed if you are IF quickrazoring with a whisper gnome that has Hide in Plain Sight and an Item Familiar. Multiple Font of Inspiration and extra standard actions is great for the player. It wont hit a Tier1 level though and if you have those classes in the group I would optimize as much as I could. The base class is strong in most aspects once per day other than damage output if you don't add anything to help it.

I optimized to IF combat and it's fun but I feel that I've turned my character into a 'Flat Footed junkie'. If I could redo it I'd maybe take a level of Rogue and Craven for a lesser damage boost than IF and focus on some other aspects like tripping or sundering. Factotum 8 and some multiple Font of Inspirations would be the way to go adding in ToB or something else.

Very fun class with the potential to be sorta cheesed. Damage only kills stuff, it doesn't necessarily win the encounter though.

GL
Blood~

[GenghisDon]

Let's put it this way. A level 20 factotum gets 10 inspiration points. A level 20 psion gets 343 plus bonus for intelligence. The factotum's reset per encounter, but I think this says something of the relative value of 1 point.

LOL, no ****! Assuming 4 encounters/day, one could quadruple the factotum's points. It's nowhere near close.

font of inspiration probably ought be something like this:
1st time=1 point
2nd time=1 point (2 total)
3rd time=2 points (4 total)
4th time=2 points (6 total)
5th time=3 points (9 total)
6th time=3 points (12 total)
7th time=4 points (16 total)
8th time=4 points (20 total)

and it's still many miles ahead of psionic talent feats

[shadow_archmagi]

Do you think a psionic power point is equivalent to an inspiration point?

They seem better to me, but I'm curious.

Isn't psionic talent regarded as a bad feat, while font of inspiration inspires claims of brokenness?

Let's say you take Font of Inspiration three times (+1 +2 +3 for a total of six extra points)

Let's put it this way:

One point is your intelligence to just about any roll.
One point is your class level to any skill you have a rank in, once per day.
Three points is an extra standard action.
One point is a free Lay On Hands or turn attempt, up to four times per day.

Points refresh every encounter, so if you have six extra points, you can either say "I start every fight by taking three turns in a row."

[Lonely Tylenol]

Do you think a psionic power point is equivalent to an inspiration point?

They seem better to me, but I'm curious.

Isn't psionic talent regarded as a bad feat, while font of inspiration inspires claims of brokenness?

Four instances of Psionic Talent are worth 14 power points (2 + 3 + 4 + 5). Four instances of Font of Inspiration are worth 10 inspiration points (1 + 2 + 3 + 4).

At level 20, a Psion with 30 INT has 443 power points (and gains 100 just from its INT modifier alone. At this level, three instances of Psionic Talent are worth less than having an INT modifier one higher (five instances of the feat would be roughly equivalent to having an INT modifier two higher (which can be easily bought). Four instances of the feat, then, amount to about a 3% gain in power points at this level, and you will have about a 3% greater capacity to use your main class feature.

At level 20, a Factotum with 30 INT has 10 inspiration points (and gains none for his high INT). Four instances of this feat, then, amount to a 100% gain in inspiration points at this level, and you will have a 100% greater capacity to use your main class feature.

Overall? I think power points are, in fact, better than inspiration points; they have more uses, allowing you to both use more powers per day and augment your powers as you wish, and there are simply more powers to choose from. That said, you can throw power points around trivially without Psionic Talent, but you cannot do so with inspiration points.

None of that is relevant, however, as the two feats are explicitly written and designed to work the same way, regardless of relative power level.

Worth noting, however, that (in my opinion, at least) Psionic Talent is MUCH better in E6, where power points don't scale well and feats are less of a precious resource.


LOL, no ****! Assuming 4 encounters/day, one could quadruple the factotum's points. It's nowhere near close.

font of inspiration probably ought be something like this:
1st time=1 point
2nd time=1 point (2 total)
3rd time=2 points (4 total)
4th time=2 points (6 total)
5th time=3 points (9 total)
6th time=3 points (12 total)
7th time=4 points (16 total)
8th time=4 points (20 total)

and it's still many miles ahead of psionic talent feats

I honestly would have handled Inspiration like Incarnum: you rarely (if ever) get more than one Inspiration point per feat, but you get some minor application that goes with it. Perhaps a single feat would exist that gives two inspiration points for somebody with the Inspiration class feature (one point otherwise). This would grant a higher floor, with a lower ceiling (the current Font of Inspiration catches up with this one at the third, and outpaces it at the fourth), gives the Factotum a wider array of lesser abilities to choose from, and also lends itself more easily to multi classing (or even just cherry-picking from the Inspiration subsystem).

[GenghisDon]

Shadow Arch-magi: I take it you are arguing font of inspiration ought be +1 point every time?

Lonely Tylenol says "None of that is relevant, however, as the two feats are explicitly written and designed to work the same way, regardless of relative power level."

I'm not buying it. I was going to experiment with the class, running a font facto & a non font facto together in a party, as we've never used it to date, but it's seeming pretty damn clear that font is simply too good. feats that are too good get rule 0-ed out of existance or else modified/fixed.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Shadow Arch-magi: I take it you are arguing font of inspiration ought be +1 point every time?

Lonely Tylenol says "None of that is relevant, however, as the two feats are explicitly written and designed to work the same way, regardless of relative power level."

I'm not buying it. I was going to experiment with the class, running a font facto & a non font facto together in a party, as we've never used it to date, but it's seeming pretty damn clear that font is simply too good. feats that are too good get rule 0-ed out of existance or else modified/fixed.

The problem with posting on a phone is that I get seriously ninja'd... And then my edit gets seriously ninja'd.

The Font Factotum is objectively, qualitatively better than the non-Font Factotum. The Font Factotum, however, is not overpowered; the problem is the non-Font Factotum, in my opinion, as the non-Font Factotum just doesn't have enough to last the entire fight. Your mileage may vary, of course (and we've had enough discussions for me to know that it will), but I don't consider Font a game-breaker; it's simply a feat tax for the Factotum to get to actually use its class features. Of course, the class features themselves can be broken if you really try (but then, so can Wild Empathy), but that isn't a problem with Font, as much as it is how you're using the features. If "by the books", the Factotum's abilities already seem broken to you, then of course Factotum with Font will seem broken--but so is Factotum without Font, so nothing really changes.

[Alabenson]

The problem with posting on a phone is that I get seriously ninja'd... And then my edit gets seriously ninja'd.

The Font Factotum is objectively, qualitatively better than the non-Font Factotum. The Font Factotum, however, is not overpowered; the problem is the non-Font Factotum, in my opinion, as the non-Font Factotum just doesn't have enough to last the entire fight. Your mileage may vary, of course (and we've had enough discussions for me to know that it will), but I don't consider Font a game-breaker; it's simply a feat tax for the Factotum to get to actually use its class features. Of course, the class features themselves can be broken if you really try (but then, so can Wild Empathy), but that isn't a problem with Font, as much as it is how you're using the features. If "by the books", the Factotum's abilities already seem broken to you, then of course Factotum with Font will seem broken--but so is Factotum without Font, so nothing really changes.

This has largely been my experience with playing a Factotum who heavily invested in Font of Inspiration. While the feat allows the Factotum to use their abilities more often, it doesn't actually make said abilities better than they already are. Furthermore, sinking most of your feats into Font of Inspiration also means you aren't benefiting from other, also useful feats.
Even with Font, a Factotum needs significant optimization to unbalance the game, and at that level of optimization anything can unbalance the game.

[Bloodgruve]

This has largely been my experience with playing a Factotum who heavily invested in Font of Inspiration. While the feat allows the Factotum to use their abilities more often, it doesn't actually make said abilities better than they already are. Furthermore, sinking most of your feats into Font of Inspiration also means you aren't benefiting from other, also useful feats.
Even with Font, a Factotum needs significant optimization to unbalance the game, and at that level of optimization anything can unbalance the game.

^

I feel that the class without Font and some combat optimization, IF or whatever, is a relatively weak class. Throw on Font and bolster combat ability and Factotum becomes viable. I would consider Factotum to be feat starved in any build because of the need to take multiple FoI...

Blood~

[GenghisDon]

The problem with posting on a phone is that I get seriously ninja'd... And then my edit gets seriously ninja'd.

sorry dude, I hope your 'puter gets fixed soon:smallsmile:


The Font Factotum is objectively, qualitatively better than the non-Font Factotum. The Font Factotum, however, is not overpowered; the problem is the non-Font Factotum, in my opinion, as the non-Font Factotum just doesn't have enough to last the entire fight. Your mileage may vary, of course (and we've had enough discussions for me to know that it will), but I don't consider Font a game-breaker; it's simply a feat tax for the Factotum to get to actually use its class features. Of course, the class features themselves can be broken if you really try (but then, so can Wild Empathy), but that isn't a problem with Font, as much as it is how you're using the features. If "by the books", the Factotum's abilities already seem broken to you, then of course Factotum with Font will seem broken--but so is Factotum without Font, so nothing really changes.

They don't seem broken at all, which is why I'm going to give them some play. What I said about feats being too good always applies, however. Perhaps the class will prove too weak. We'll see.

Glancing a class over, or advice online isn't worth much compared to actual playtesting, at least for me/my rules. I do appreciate the info & advice though. It may be that I'll cut font & increase the class's base points after seeing how it plays, I really can't say right now.

I'm certainly NOT out to unbalance anything, or make super characters (by the standards of optimizers here, anyway). EVER. My/our games bear little to no resemblance to those played by many here, I suspect, & I prefer it remain that way.

[eggs]

This has largely been my experience with playing a Factotum who heavily invested in Font of Inspiration. While the feat allows the Factotum to use their abilities more often, it doesn't actually make said abilities better than they already are.
I'm going to disagree with that; the things that make the Factotum strong rather than just flexible make the Factotum strong because they are additive.

A level 10 or so Factotum with 5 inspiration points can drop 2 spells that are slightly low-level for the Factotum's ECL. That's nothing special; it's what most casters do at that level. But with 14 Inspiration, the factotum can walk up to its enemies, whack them with an Intimidate effect or two to instill Shaken/Frightened Status, then hit them with the 2 spells. The actions are the same that were available to the first Factotum, but with more of them, the Factotum has a higher chance of success (penalizing saves) and a more devastating effect (Frightened Status + whatever else is going on)

Ditto for any Factotum that uses Cunning Strike for whatever reason.

[Thomasinx]

I'm going to disagree with that; the things that make the Factotum strong rather than just flexible make the Factotum strong because they are additive.

A level 10 or so Factotum with 5 inspiration points can drop 2 spells that are slightly low-level for the Factotum's ECL. That's nothing special; it's what most casters do at that level. But with 14 Inspiration, the factotum can walk up to its enemies, whack them with an Intimidate effect or two to instill Shaken/Frightened Status, then hit them with the 2 spells. The actions are the same that were available to the first Factotum, but with more of them, the Factotum has a higher chance of success (penalizing saves) and a more devastating effect (Frightened Status + whatever else is going on)

Ditto for any Factotum that uses Cunning Strike for whatever reason.

Keep in mind that with your actions listed, the factotum won't be doing anything else useful for the rest of combat. If a level 10 caster casts 2 lower-level spells in a round, they can then again do the same thing the next round, or drop a higher level spell. If the factotum has to burn all its inspiration points in one round just to keep up with other classes then there's a problem...

[Draz74]

The Factotum is a poorly-written class. The guy chiefly responsible, Mike Mearls, had only a vague understanding of the core rules, and didn't address conflicts when writing the class. To further muddy the waters he made up some FAQ answers regarding the Factotum that are demonstrably in conflict with the core rules (see here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070412a)). Those FAQ answers were obvious attempts at increasing the power of the Factotum after Dungeonscape had already undergone final editing by his superiors on the project.

So yes, the Factotum can be cheesy if you play fast and loose with the rules. Picking up 10 Fighter bonus feats with Cunning Brilliance because "it's reasonable to assume" that Bonus Feats is an Extraordinary class ability, or all the spellcasting of a 19th level character because "it's reasonable to assume" something similar is extremely cheesy. Allowing Cunning Strike to disregard the basic stacking rule is cheesy. There are cheesy exploits available involving Opportunistic Piety and feats powered by undead turn attempts. Reading Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) as granting a geometric progression of IPs, rather than that referring to the total IPs granted, is also cheesy.

You're correct about everything here ... but ironically, some of the things you mention here (specifically the Fighter Feats and the stacking Cunning Strike), even though they're cheesy in a "rules-bending munchkin" sort of way, are actually not particularly overpowered.

In fact, allowing Cunning Strike to stack is still underpowered, especially on a Factotum without Font of Inspiration. So as a DM, I'd allow these exploits, even though a player trying to force them on a RAW-abiding DM would be cheesy.

Just clarifying, so the OP doesn't get the wrong idea about certain Factotum abilities being too strong.


I'm sorry, I agree with the others here, but I think this is just wrong. Font of Inspiration is explicitly written just like, and functions just like, the Psionic Talent (http://dndtools.eu/feats/expanded-psionics-handbook--65/psionic-talent--2288/) feat, which does have a geometric scaling: "When you take this feat for the first time, you gain 2 power points. . . . You gain 3 power points if you take this feat a second time." Each mention refers to the individual instance of taking the feat, not the sum total of all gains from all instances of taking the feat. Font of Inspiration works the same, since it is written to work the same: you will gain 1 inspiration point the first time you take it, 2 points the second time (plus the first instance, for a total of 3), 3 inspiration points the third time (plus the two previous instances, for a total of 6), and so on.

What you describe is indeed the common consensus for what the feat was intended to do ... but it's true the feat can be interpreted a different way if you read it all-too-literally.

And as far as math nomenclature goes, the RAI progression you are describing is "quadratic" rather than "geometric." (It follows the function 1/2 * (X^2 - X).)


I honestly would have handled Inspiration like Incarnum: you rarely (if ever) get more than one Inspiration point per feat, but you get some minor application that goes with it. Perhaps a single feat would exist that gives two inspiration points for somebody with the Inspiration class feature (one point otherwise).

Oooh. I homebrewed a "fix" to Font of Inspiration at one point, but I honestly like this idea better. This is how the Factotum should have been developed.

[killianh]

The thing with factotum is that you get exactly what's on the can: A character that can do just about anything, but a few levels behind. Like a caster with spell slots you eventually outgrow the earlier abilities and uses and the Font feat really only grants extra uses of what could be considered ok abilities, and considering that a factotum will probably be filling a lot of roles this doesn't seem too excessive. What can break the factotum with Font is its ability to go Nova with the points.

A level 20 human factotum could take 8 Fonts. Let's say he has 26 INT (+8 modifier required for the eight font).

1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+10= 46 point max at level 20. times 4=184 points per day. This might seem like a lot, but in an encounter at its worst this means the factotum goes nova and spends 1 point to use a spell, followed by 3 for an extra standard action, followed by 1 for a spell, and so on. To use all of the spells a factotum is allowed in an encounter would cost 29 points still leaving 17 to use on say activating extraordinary abilities from other classes, doing sneak attack damage, or adding INT to attacks. This assumes the encounter isn't finished after the nova or that point aren't used during the spell nova for Cunning brilliance, insight, or breach.

But of course going that route and acting like that is the same as saying the wizard as a base class is cheesy because he can chain gate solars for wishes. In this case both the factotum and the feat Font of inspiration are not cheesy as they stand, but allow for such actions to be taken if that is what they player chooses. Not the class's fault, or the feat's

[Kurald Galain]

I don't want to be the bad guy, but..how cheesy is it?

I'd say so, yes.

Not in the sense that it's overpowered, but in the sense that it's a class that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You can basically do everything (that's what the name means) because your sheet says so. I would not allow this class when I'm running a campaign.

[Bloodgruve]

Cunning Surge should be limited to once per turn, that's how I play it anyway.

Blood~

[Draz74]

Cunning Surge should be limited to once per turn, that's how I play it anyway.

Yep. This is a houserule that is obvious, easy to implement, won't hurt non-cheesy Factotums, and shuts down a number of the worst theoretical abuses the Factotum can pull off.

[Flickerdart]

You can basically do everything (that's what the name means) because your sheet says so.
That's how D&D works - you can do what your sheet says. What's so unusual abut that?

[Tyndmyr]

I don't want to be the bad guy, but..how cheesy is it? I would really love to play it, but I don't want my DM breathing down my neck saying, hmmm your to useful , rocks fall on you and you die.


**Keypoint* I am only making a level 3 Factotum possibly on a 27 point build.


Factotum's cheese level is directly proportional to char-op levels. They scale damned well. Your low op factotum is a jack of all trades, master of...nothing, really, and ends up working as a rogue variant.

Your high-op factotum is laughing at death and taking arbitrary numbers of actions per round.

[shadow_archmagi]

Shadow Arch-magi: I take it you are arguing font of inspiration ought be +1 point every time?


Oh, no, my point was just that a dozen PP was nowhere near as useful as a dozen IP.

Personally, I dislike Font of Inspiration because it eats up a player's feats, which could be used to add flavor and variety. I'd much rather see a factotum with some SLAM (Spell like ability metamagic) feats or feinting or whatnot.

[Dairuga]

At low levels, the best bonuses from your skills aren't from Cunning Knowledge; they're from Brains Over Brawn. By level 3, you are adding your INT bonus to your STR- and DEX-based skills. This means that, with good ability scores (and maybe a point in the ones you actually make, for posterity), you are basically passing all your physical skills. Grey Elf is a good way to describe this: let's say you are a Grey Elf with an INT of 18 and DEX of 14 (pre-racial mods). This isn't unreasonable at any point buy, as these *should* be your two main attributes, with only light armor proficiency in hand. With adjusted ability scores of 20 INT and 16 DEX, you already have a +8 to your DEX-based skills, without burning any skill points or inspiration. With a balance pole (a masterwork tool in Complete Adventurer), you could take 10 on a Balance check of DC20 or less, meaning that you could, without fail, balance on any surface as narrow as 1 inch wide. If you had 5 ranks in Balance (which you both want and can afford), you could balance on a 1-inch-wide surface that is severely obstructed, or on a severe incline or decline, on a 10 (which means as long as you are not rushed or threatened). The same is true for Open Lock checks: with only 1 rank in each skill (the minimum required to make the check) and masterwork thieves' tools, you could take 20 on the check for a result of 31, which is enough to crack a "good lock". This won't get you past an "amazing lock", which is a DC40 check, but that's also a DC40 check. At level three. By its definition, you shouldn't be making this check (or even the 30) without considerable investment anyway. Remember that your INT is fluid, as well; if you're putting 5 level bonuses into this character, wearing a +6 item, and reading a +5 tome, then you have a 36 INT, or a +18 to all your INT-, DEX-, and STR-based skills. Even with a poor DEX, you are making nearly every listed skill check pre-epic with a roll of 2 (even a 12 STR or DEX, or -any- other bonus to the skill, even a rank, makes this possible on a 1), so it's not something that becomes obsolete equickly or easily (especially as a passive bonus with no action cost).

In addition to this, you do also get the use of inspiration points via Cunning Knowledge, but this isn't really noteworthy at low levels. At high levels, though? Fantastic. You're telling me that, after 15 levels in Factotum, I can add a +15 to any skill in which I have a rank? Keep in mind that this doesn't make your total skill ranks equal to your level; it adds it as a bonus. Thus, if you're level 15, and you have 18 ranks in Diplomacy, and you use Cunning Knowledge for a +15 bonus, you suddenly have a +33 in your Diplomacy check. Plus your CHA, plus all miscellaneous bonuses. If I have 18 CHA (not unreasonable at level 15) and a Circlet of Persuasion, and *nothing* else, I can take 10 and make a Helpful person a Fanatic. If actual optimization was happening here? Fuggeddaboutit.



Without Font of Inspiration, there really isn't a lot of longevity happening with the Factotum. This is true. However, it is worth noting that, in mid- to high-op games, actual combat (which is to say, combat in which the battle has not yet been decided, and there is a real risk of failure or death; in other words, combat that isn't clean-up) seldom lasts more than two, maybe three rounds, and in these cases, the Factotum will do just fine all combat, unless you are spending your Inspiration points every time you get the opportunity (which is just generally poor play).



Remember that Brains Over Brawn adds your INT modifier to all your DEX-based checks (not just skill checks), and that initiative is a DEX check. You should also be applying your Iaijutsu Focus damage against almost anybody you could be hitting on your first round (since a enemy that has not yet acted in combat is flat-footed until their first turn begins, and you *should* be going first or early in initiative). I don't know why you would waste Inspiration Points using Cunning Knowledge on Iaijustu Focus (which amounts to maybe +1d6 damage every 5 levels), as by the time you would get significant Iaijutsu Focus damage from the inspiration, you could, with a little optimization, already be approaching (or meeting) the point in which the cap is reached (meaning no bonus damage for you). Cunning Surge on the damage is less wasteful, but also not strictly necessary. As for the casting of Grease, sure, you could do it--or somebody else in the party could (or you could, quite easily I might add, UMD a scroll or wand). The point being, the fact that you could Grease the wheels on your Iaijutsu Focus damage is testament to the ability of the Factotum--but spending Inspiration on it is not even close to your best option.



Remember that your INT modifier changes as you level. If you start the game with 17 INT (you should really try for 18 at level 1; Factotum needs an 18 in its main score more than most), by level 10, you could probably have an INT modifier of 6 quite easily: your base 17 INT, plus two points from level-up, plus a +4 item, amounts to a 23 INT. Really, you should only hit the cap on Font of Inspiration if you dumped INT, and it isn't really fair to judge Factotum's ability based on a stupid Factotum.

As for Font Inspiration, if I were, say, a level 13 Factotum, four Fonts of Inspiration (1, 3, 6, 9, with ambiguous race and Imperious Command at 12), I could use my 16 Inspiration Points to walk up, use a Cunning Knowledge-boosted Intimidate check (1 point) with the Never Outnumbered skill trick to fear-bomb everybody (causing them to cower in fear for 1 round), use an extra standard action (3 points) to cast Solid Fog (1 point), use an extra standard action (3 points) to cast Cloudkill (1 point), use an extra standard action (3 points) to cast Vortex of Teeth (1 point), and I have... What, three points left? I spend one on Perform (dance), giving an epic dance performance while my enemies suffer in their smoke-induced misery, and sit on the remaining two turns. My enemies, meanwhile, are cowering in fear for 1 round (during which they take 3d8 points of damage from Vortex of Teeth and probably 1d4 CON damage from Cloudkill), take their second round orienting themselves and moving 5-10 feet (during which they take 3d8 points of damage from Vortex of Teeth and 1d4 CON damage from Cloudkill), and... Well, you get the picture. With that many Inspiration points, when I go nova, I really go nova. I mean, sure, I could use 16 Inspiration points to give me 8 piddly bonuses to attack and damage rolls each, maybe get some Iaijutsu focus damage off... But why would I?



You just talked about Font of Inspiration in the last paragraph. Why would you ignore its existence here? I mean, sure, if you have 5 Inspiration points, and you're spending three getting a standard action (and the remaining two getting Iaijutsu Focus damage through a very inefficient means), then I guess you're going to run out of steam quickly... But do you know what my Factotum is going to have at level 9? Four instances of Font of Inspiration (more if flaws are allowed). Suddenly, 5 becomes 15. That's five extra standard actions (or three with a number of good uses for them).



This is all true. It is part of what makes Chameleon synergistic for Human Factotums. Worth noting, though, that "only" being able to cast from the Sor/Wiz list means you're still casting from the best spell list in the game, and can prepare any spell on the list at the beginning of each day (whereas Wizards need to prepare from a spellbook with a limited, although adjustable, number of spells known, and the Sorcerer is more severely limited by a fixed spells known mechanic).



I don't consider this much of a restriction; if a spell exists that I want to cast in multiples, I'll UMD a wand of it (and UMD is a class skill for Factotums).



I'm not sure where "per day" is coming from here, as Inspiration is a per-encounter resource (and only Cunning Knowledge has a limitation on it). This is what you will be doing in one fight; next combat, you get to do it all over again (or do something entirely different, if you so choose).



I think you are sorely overestimating the role Iaijutsu Focus has on a Factotum's irrelevance, and sorely underestimating the role of Cunning Surge. To borrow an example, you could be doing Iaijutsu Focus much better with extra standard actions: if I had to put a single big enemy down, I would (if I won initiative, with 15 points of Inspiration) walk up, activate my Wand of Wraithstrike (at level 10, with 13 ranks, +4 CHA modifier, and a Circlet of Persuasion, I have a +20 on the check, and cannot fail), attack with a Cunning Knowledge-boosted Iaijutsu Focus check (1 point) against an AC of 10 (the enemy is both flat-footed and being hit with touch attacks), then use an extra standard action (3 points) to do it again four times (without the bonus from Cunning Knowledge). All with a +1 feycraft Gnommish quickrazor, of course.

With attack rolls of 10 (hit), 1 (auto-fail), 19 (threatens), 5 (confirms the threat), 10 (hit) and 10 (hit), I connect four times, doing (let's assume 12 STR) 4, 9, 3, and 3 weapon damage, and, with Iaijutsu Focus rolls (results) of 18 (48), 15 (35), 12 (32), and 20 (40), I do 27 (8d6), 24 (6d6), 19 (5d6) and 22 (7d6) for a total of 111 damage. Not game-ending by any stretch, but I did get four instances of Iaijutsu Focus damage out of it (which is great for single BBEGs), and I only didn't get five because of a critical miss (with +7 BAB and a +1 weapon, I would have succeeded on a 2).

Where such a Factotum would really shine, however, is using those extra standard actions to cast spells. One thing that the Wizard's action economy generally forbids him or her from doing is combining spells that have deadly effects together; the Factotum does not have this problem. Consider what might happen, for example, if you were to use 5 points (3 for Cunning Surge, 1 for each spell) to cast any two of Grease (1), Wall of Smoke (1), Web (2) Glitterdust (2), Slow (3), Sleet Storm (3), Stinking Cloud (3), Ice Storm (4), Solid Fog (4), Vortex of Teeth (4), Black Tentacles (4), Cloudkill (5), Transmute Rock to Mud (5), Transmute Mud to Rock (5), any of the Wall of X spells (4-6), or Forcecage (7) together at the same time. Imagine what you could do with Mind Fog (5) combined with Feeblemind (5), Mass Suggestion (6) or [i]Mass Hold Person (7)! The possibilities (once explored) are endless!

Well, dear lord gosh darned.
I got showed up there.
*Claps slowly, so very slowly, in sheer awe*

You win this round, my good sir. You win this round.

[Lonely Tylenol]

sorry dude, I hope your 'puter gets fixed soon:smallsmile:

Thanks. I'm not sure what to do about it, though... And my last, best hope of fixing it doesn't wake up until 4pm, perennial night owl that he is.


They don't seem broken at all, which is why I'm going to give them some play. What I said about feats being too good always applies, however. Perhaps the class will prove too weak. We'll see.

Glancing a class over, or advice online isn't worth much compared to actual playtesting, at least for me/my rules. I do appreciate the info & advice though. It may be that I'll cut font & increase the class's base points after seeing how it plays, I really can't say right now.

Well, maybe this well help: I've been playing an Unseelie Fey Whisper Gnome Factotum (who rolled "no wings" and "darkvision"... I could not make this up) in a higher-powered game (by my standards) starting at third level, with Font of Inspiration as my first- and third-level feats. I also took a flaw... To grab another Font of Inspiration. As a result, I have had all the inspiration I need since the game began, and I *DO* use all of it (mostly to enable me to do "rule of cool" type things, such as cover up two-weapon fighting penalties without using the feat, or do non lethal damage with her quickrazor and alchemy blade, or to use improvised weapons and attacks)... But there is nevertheless many a time when I wish I had taken Combat Expertise and Improved Trip at levels 1 and 3, as being Small makes it more difficult for me to trip (even with the INT bonus), and I've already failed two such checks... Or Knowledge Devotion, which would let me put my ridiculously knowledgable character to good use analyzing weaknesses in combat... Or Dreadful Wrath, since my character is one who leads through fear (although mostly of the "fear of the unknown"/"fear of the externa" sense), and it would be nice to have something that models how imposing she can be in combat, in spite of her small size. Since I spent all my entry-level feats on Fonts, I'll never have Dreadful Wrath (L1 only), and Improved Trip will not be possible until level 9 (and that's if I forego Imperious Command at 6), at which point it's become quite irrelevant.

In sum: from my experience, if you take Font of Inspiration over and over, you *will* get use out of it, even if you have to force yourself to... But you lose out on the option of diversifying, or doing things Inspiration can't (turns out it's a decent-sized list).


I'm certainly NOT out to unbalance anything, or make super characters (by the standards of optimizers here, anyway). EVER.

None of us are. Or rather, I'm not.


What you describe is indeed the common consensus for what the feat was intended to do ... but it's true the feat can be interpreted a different way if you read it all-too-literally.

And as far as math nomenclature goes, the RAI progression you are describing is "quadratic" rather than "geometric." (It follows the function 1/2 * (X^2 - X).)

I never was that great on the terminology.

What is the geometric interpretation, then? :smallconfused:


Oooh. I homebrewed a "fix" to Font of Inspiration at one point, but I honestly like this idea better. This is how the Factotum should have been developed.

Thanks. :smallbiggrin:


Yep. This is a houserule that is obvious, easy to implement, won't hurt non-cheesy Factotums, and shuts down a number of the worst theoretical abuses the Factotum can pull off.

Basically, this.


Well, dear lord gosh darned.
I got showed up there.
*Claps slowly, so very slowly, in sheer awe*

You win this round, my good sir. You win this round.

Oh, I don't want this to be about winning or anything; I'm just sharing my experience with the class, is all. I enjoy the discussion. :smallsmile:

[GenghisDon]

geometric would be, for example: 1+2+4+8, ect

multiply each in succession by the same number (2 in my example)

psionic talent ought be that way IMHO

what would the class play like with no font, but twice the points?

[Draz74]

What is the geometric interpretation, then? :smallconfused:

You know ... I remember having it pointed out to me before, and saying "That's obviously not intended, but yeah ... that makes sense." But I just re-read the feat, and I'm not seeing it either. :smallconfused:

[Lonely Tylenol]

geometric would be, for example: 1+2+4+8, ect

multiply each in succession by the same number (2 in my example)

psionic talent ought be that way IMHO

what would the class play like with no font, but twice the points?

Psionic Talent would be better with a 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 progression, as far as power level goes; it would punish low-level users, unfortunately, but it would give an awesomely high number of power points to higher-level users (a Human who has burned all eight feats on Psionic Talent would have 7 extra castings of 9th-level powers, for example)... Which is probably problematic in and of itself.

As for Inspiration with double the points and no Font? Would probably play a lot like a Factotum now (with slightly fewer Inspiration points at all levels except 1 and 20, compared to a Factotum who takes exactly four instances of Font of Inspiration), but with greater feat access. It would probably be close to a wash, as power levels are concerned.

[GenghisDon]

yeah, not good enough for low level, too good for high.

Yeah, I figured it probably would be akin to a wash. Looking at it at L10, with just 5 points...it just doesn't look like much. Still, I'll just play them & see how they go. Worst case a couple of my players hate me for a while.:smallfrown:

[Lonely Tylenol]

yeah, not good enough for low level, too good for high.

Yeah, I figured it probably would be akin to a wash. Looking at it at L10, with just 5 points...it just doesn't look like much. Still, I'll just play them & see how they go. Worst case a couple of my players hate me for a while.:smallfrown:

For what it's worth, any number of Inspiration points will be enough for most non-combat encounters (unless you are doing some crazy Indy maneuver, like disabling a trap remotely with your whip while running along a ridge on the wall of a narrow stone passageway while trying to outrun the waters filling the hallway behind you... At level 1), and between your high number of skill points, Brains Over Brawn (starting at level 3) and Cunning Knowledge (once your level is high enough for the increase to make a difference), you will definitely carve a niche for yourself outside of combat. So your party shouldn't hate you too much.

[GenghisDon]

ah, I fooled you unintentionally...my players might hate me for sticking them with the class, not because I'm holding them back playing a weak link character.

My players generally trust me to make good, solid characters for them, on the occassions I go that route rather than have them roll up their own.

Nearly all my players like combat to boot; despite my rails vs optimization, we aren't as low powered as you might think.

[wayfare]

In response to the OP, I dont think they are actually gamebreakers, but they feel that way. I'd liken it to the same feeling you get when playing with a batman wizard or somebody who is great at Exalted Paranoia Combat: you know they have the mechanics to beat your challenges, to take the story places you didn't imagine.

Thing is, a balanced group will already have this ability -- even one composed of all tier 3 and 4s. Its just annoying, at times, for it to be concentrated in one guy.

My biggest issue with the Factotum is that it feels like a bunch of cool mechanics without a super coherent theme (which is part of the point of the class). The chameleon is a more coherent class, but less immediately flexible. Both are fun to play, and I don't think either will trample over fun if played by a careful player (and hey, lets be honest, even a charger or a tripper can ruin the fun of a session if the player wants to).