The Singing Theif - Bard help

[aigiovanni]

Note: Please avoid from giving suggestions for high damage, high combat versatility our campaigns tend to have very little combat and more avoiding combat. I want to focus on Out of combat uses with this character emphasizing my illusions, the ability to avoid combat, and social skills. I appreciate all the suggestions people have given so far but as I said I'm trying to avoid combat tricks.

Hello everyone I'm posting this to see if I can get some help in building my bard for an upand comming Pathfinder game that I will be joining soon. Basically Im looking for feat suggestions, item suggestions, and what not I suppose I should share with you my character info so here we go.

Race: Spellscale
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Class Level: Bard 10
Speed: 40 ft
Stats:
Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 10
Int: 16
Wis: 16
Cha: 20

Character Traits: 1/1
Quick

Character Flaws: 2/2
Unreactive
Non-Combatant

Feats: 1/7
Open Minded

Items:

Available gold: 62,000

This is what I have so far into not a whole lot but as you can tell my character is not gonna be wading in and out of combat to successfully which is fine I have no desire to lol this character is gonna be more of the Party face basically he'll be lying (bluff) and conciving people (Diplomacy) alot. So those two skills are pretty much set in stone I want to focus heavily on his illusions, interacting with npcs, and my performance skills as I plan on blending them all together in my characters behavior. Also note that I can't re-roll my stats or rearrange them as they were rolled like this and our dm is pretty much a stickler when it comes to that.

Note: Because of the description I gave of this character to my dm when making him the Trait, Flaws, and Race are set in stone along with my stats so lets avoid suggestions involving changing them lol.

Anyway Im debating between going full Bard or Bard/Rogue as the image I have in my head of this character is that he was orphaned as a young child and thus had to fend for himself which he did by stealing food, clothes, and basic essentials while at night he would rest in his "hideout" keeping himself busy by singing songs his mother would sing to him and practicing illusions that his father taught him before they died and would try to improve on them as the days went on. In his attempts as stealing he would practice manipulation (bluff/diplomacy) to get what he wanted and illusions to get away when those failed.

Also I opted against taking the Spellscale Bard racial substitutions as I felt they where not all that useful considering the rest of the party the other members of my group are making.

what are available: Any Pathfinder and 3.5 book as long as I can show or point out where it comes from.

[hoverfrog]

The Bard's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284) may help.

[aigiovanni]

The Bard's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284) may help.

Thanks i'll check it out though it seems geard more toward the D&D 3.5 bard than the Pathfinder bard Im sure I can get some useful info from here. :)

[God Imperror]

Why rogue?

I would go full bard with bardic knack (PHB II), I mean bardic knack seems to be what you really want. With bardic knack and improvisation you have chances to make the heal check.

If the spellscale substitution levels are not really useful that probably means that the rest of the party is not heavily focused on spell casting (because the acf of the spell scale are great for spell casters)

I would then consider dragonfire inspiration (dragon magic) after all you are a dragonscale, talk to the DM to see if you can switch to something other than fire, lingering song (complete adventurer) to make the songs last longer, melodic casting (complete mage) to cast spells while singing, song of the heart (Eberron campaign setting, you can switch it with suggestion at lvl 6) to make your songs more powerful. As a side note you qualify for words of creation (book of exalted deeds) if you want to be exalted...

Using inspiration and bardic knanck you can deal with most skill checks so you can focus your ranks in whatever matters to you. In combat buff everyone using inspirational boost, song, badge of valor that would give everyone +5 to attack and +5 to damage (if you are using words of creation +10) or +5d6 damage (again +10d6 with words of creation)

[aigiovanni]

Why rogue?

I would go full bard with bardic knack (PHB II), I mean bardic knack seems to be what you really want. With bardic knack and improvisation you have chances to make the heal check.

If the spellscale substitution levels are not really useful that probably means that the rest of the party is not heavily focused on spell casting (because the acf of the spell scale are great for spell casters)

I would then consider dragonfire inspiration (dragon magic) after all you are a dragonscale, talk to the DM to see if you can switch to something other than fire, lingering song (complete adventurer) to make the songs last longer, melodic casting (complete mage) to cast spells while singing, song of the heart (Eberron campaign setting, you can switch it with suggestion at lvl 6) to make your songs more powerful. As a side note you qualify for words of creation (book of exalted deeds) if you want to be exalted...

Using inspiration and bardic knanck you can deal with most skill checks so you can focus your ranks in whatever matters to you. In combat buff everyone using inspirational boost, song, badge of valor that would give everyone +5 to attack and +5 to damage (if you are using words of creation +10) or +5d6 damage (again +10d6 with words of creation)

I was considering rogue because of the fact he's a thief and scam artist (thus exalted wouldnt' work lol)

I was considering dragonfire inspiration but as I stated above I dont want him to be all that useful in combat I want to focus more on out of combat for this character.

[hoverfrog]

Thanks i'll check it out though it seems geard more toward the D&D 3.5 bard than the Pathfinder bard Im sure I can get some useful info from here. :)Then the Pathfinder Guide to Bards (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1vYT7lEwimdjo0T8NoJ8C2-wMueWMk68gZL_9pTIU4aE) is also available.

[Psyren]

PF Bards can be really good at combat even without going into melee. Check out the Sound Striker archetype, which lets you attack with magical words that can pierce, slash, or bludgeon foes. Then for the thief part, check out the Detective archetype, which gets Trapfinding.

These two archetypes can be combined, making you into a sort of singing ninja. You'll do lots of damage, have all your bardic spells, and plenty of skillpoints to throw around.

[Waker]

Multiclassing isn't really necessary for a thieving bard. You can take the Archaeologist archetype
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/archaeologist
or the Detective archetype
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/detective
to get most of the relevant thieving abilities. You'll still lack the sneak attack of a rogue, but you'll have everything else. I personally favor the archaeologist myself.

[aigiovanni]

PF Bards can be really good at combat even without going into melee. Check out the Sound Striker archetype, which lets you attack with magical words that can pierce, slash, or bludgeon foes. Then for the thief part, check out the Detective archetype, which gets Trapfinding.

These two archetypes can be combined, making you into a sort of singing ninja. You'll do lots of damage, have all your bardic spells, and plenty of skillpoints to throw around.

As I said Im trying to avoid combat with this character as much as possible XD This character is more likely to run from combat and hide or use his illusions to confuse people.


Multiclassing isn't really necessary for a thieving bard. You can take the Archaeologist archetype
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core.../archaeologist
or the Detective archetype
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...ypes/detective
to get most of the relevant thieving abilities. You'll still lack the sneak attack of a rogue, but you'll have everything else. I personally favor the archaeologist myself.

Awesome thanks I'll take a look into these.

[gorfnab]

Sandman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/sandman) - Pathfinder Bard Archetype has sneak attack.

[aigiovanni]

Sandman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/sandman) - Pathfinder Bard Archetype has sneak attack.

Ahem ~grabs and shows you first post~ please no combat trick stuff thanks ^^

My focuses!

1st. Illusions

2nd. Skill monkey

What I will not be doing.

1st. Combat

[Alefiend]

Ahem ~grabs and shows you first post~ please no combat trick stuff thanks ^^

My focuses!

1st. Illusions

2nd. Skill monkey

What I will not be doing.

1st. Combat

So you're asking how to roleplay your character? The things you describe in your first post don't require a special feat setup.


this character is gonna be more of the Party face basically he'll be lying (bluff) and conciving people (Diplomacy) alot. So those two skills are pretty much set in stone I want to focus heavily on his illusions, interacting with npcs, and my performance skills as I plan on blending them all together in my characters behavior.

You've answered your own question. Pump up your Bluff and Diplomacy, as well as whatever Perform specialties fit. Search the forums for clever uses of illusion.

Sooner or later, though, you will have to fight—or at least engage in some kind of conflict. It's fine to not focus on those aspects, but there's a difference between that and being useless to your friends in the only part of the game that requires something other than clever roleplay.

[aigiovanni]

So you're asking how to roleplay your character? The things you describe in your first post don't require a special feat setup.



You've answered your own question. Pump up your Bluff and Diplomacy, as well as whatever Perform specialties fit. Search the forums for clever uses of illusion.

Sooner or later, though, you will have to fight—or at least engage in some kind of conflict. It's fine to not focus on those aspects, but there's a difference between that and being useless to your friends in the only part of the game that requires something other than clever roleplay.

I'm looking more for general feat ideas to help with my illusions, item suggestions, and what not. Not so much how to role play my character.

[LibraryOgre]

Go straight Bard. Most of the reasons you'd want Rogue levels are combat or dungeon oriented.

My easiest piece of advice? A single spell: Heroism (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/heroism). Not Greater Heroism... while it has bigger bonuses, it's pitiful duration makes it a FAR lesser spell. Heroism from a 10th level Bard lasts 100 minutes, or 200 minutes if Extended (which you'll be high enough level to do, if you don't have a rod to do it for you).

What good is it? +2 to pretty much EVERYTHING. Including Saves (useful against special abilities and "social spells") and skill checks. Become just that little bit more... it's like having a +4 on every attribute, so far as skill checks are concerned. It's not only great on YOUR charming self, it's a wonderful boost for your less adept peers... not quite as good as being trained in the skill, but enough to smooth over the smaller gaffes. It's also a zero-save spell, because it's a buff.

Look carefully at Versatile Performance. With Oratory and either Act or Comedy, you've got pretty much the full spread of social skills... 4 skills for 2 points per level. Get by on charisma (and Heroism!) until these become available... I suggest Oratory, first.

The straight Bard can make a LOT of use of Fascinate and Suggestion in social settings... while it sucks in the dungeon, try launching into a famous soliloquy in a social setting. The mastery of your performance will draw everyone's attention (Fascinate), and let you make your point (Suggestion). Suggestion DCs aren't as insane in Pathfinder as they were in 3e, but they're still useful. Sense Motive lets you know who to target with Fascinate and Suggestion... aim for the weak-willed trendmakers. The rich idiots. They pay attention to you, so others do. You Suggest things to them, so they suggest them to others.

Remember: As a bard, you are awesome. You shape opinion with your words. You hold honor on your tongue, and can dole it out to those who please you.

EDIT: Oh, and feats? Open Minded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/open-minded). You've got a HUGE skill list... put a few points in everything. Be able to keep up with every conversation, making a showing (if not a good one, at least not an incompetent one) in every competition. Focus on a few good skills, but be able to expand on anything anyone says... when you need to.

[aigiovanni]

Go straight Bard. Most of the reasons you'd want Rogue levels are combat or dungeon oriented.

My easiest piece of advice? A single spell: Heroism (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/heroism). Not Greater Heroism... while it has bigger bonuses, it's pitiful duration makes it a FAR lesser spell. Heroism from a 10th level Bard lasts 100 minutes, or 200 minutes if Extended (which you'll be high enough level to do, if you don't have a rod to do it for you).

What good is it? +2 to pretty much EVERYTHING. Including Saves (useful against special abilities and "social spells") and skill checks. Become just that little bit more... it's like having a +4 on every attribute, so far as skill checks are concerned. It's not only great on YOUR charming self, it's a wonderful boost for your less adept peers... not quite as good as being trained in the skill, but enough to smooth over the smaller gaffes. It's also a zero-save spell, because it's a buff.

Look carefully at Versatile Performance. With Oratory and either Act or Comedy, you've got pretty much the full spread of social skills... 4 skills for 2 points per level. Get by on charisma (and Heroism!) until these become available... I suggest Oratory, first.

The straight Bard can make a LOT of use of Fascinate and Suggestion in social settings... while it sucks in the dungeon, try launching into a famous soliloquy in a social setting. The mastery of your performance will draw everyone's attention (Fascinate), and let you make your point (Suggestion). Suggestion DCs aren't as insane in Pathfinder as they were in 3e, but they're still useful. Sense Motive lets you know who to target with Fascinate and Suggestion... aim for the weak-willed trendmakers. The rich idiots. They pay attention to you, so others do. You Suggest things to them, so they suggest them to others.

Remember: As a bard, you are awesome. You shape opinion with your words. You hold honor on your tongue, and can dole it out to those who please you.

EDIT: Oh, and feats? Open Minded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/open-minded). You've got a HUGE skill list... put a few points in everything. Be able to keep up with every conversation, making a showing (if not a good one, at least not an incompetent one) in every competition. Focus on a few good skills, but be able to expand on anything anyone says... when you need to.

O.O Awww yeah now this is what I am talking about :D Thanks for this awesome post lots of useful info. Any item suggestions?

[LibraryOgre]

O.O Awww yeah now this is what I am talking about :D Thanks for this awesome post lots of useful info. Any item suggestions?

I'm not much of a Christmas Tree person, but the basics apply... boost your Charisma. Invest in a headband of Intellect, and choose some skills that you don't feel like putting points in. See about alternate slots, and pick up the Circlet of Persuasion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/circlet-of-persuasion).

While you may not be anticipating much combat, you may want to realize that it can happen. I suggest a Masterwork Cold Iron "gentleman's sword" if such exist in your setting, with a silver dagger for backup. Consider something that will let you cast Magic Weapon, so you have at least 3 forms of DR covered. You might also consider items that will let you cast Mage Armor or Shield (usually cheaper than Bracers of Armor), and if you can, something that will let you resist or be immune to poison. Just because YOU'RE not a fighter doesn't mean others won't try to assassinate you.

Boost your saves. I like to toss in something innocuous, like Pipes of Ghost Sound, as well.

EDIT: And, duh, a rod of extend, for the Heroism spell.

[aigiovanni]

I'm not much of a Christmas Tree person, but the basics apply... boost your Charisma. Invest in a headband of Intellect, and choose some skills that you don't feel like putting points in. See about alternate slots, and pick up the Circlet of Persuasion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/circlet-of-persuasion).

While you may not be anticipating much combat, you may want to realize that it can happen. I suggest a Masterwork Cold Iron "gentleman's sword" if such exist in your setting, with a silver dagger for backup. Consider something that will let you cast Magic Weapon, so you have at least 3 forms of DR covered. You might also consider items that will let you cast Mage Armor or Shield (usually cheaper than Bracers of Armor), and if you can, something that will let you resist or be immune to poison. Just because YOU'RE not a fighter doesn't mean others won't try to assassinate you.

Boost your saves. I like to toss in something innocuous, like Pipes of Ghost Sound, as well.

EDIT: And, duh, a rod of extend, for the Heroism spell.

Hmmmm sounds good to me.